ADVERTISEMENT

Q: So how would you improve/fix Football districting scheduling?

niualum --

That was a lot of work you did, and I appreciate the effort. But, once you do something that big, people are gonna nitpick away. Here are my main nitpicks after just a brief scan of it:

1. You dropped down three 8A programs (Edwardsville, O'Fallon, and Belleville East) into 7A. While that solves the 8A district travel problem for those three schools (and the Joliet area 8A schools), that's a pretty big exception to the rule you just made there for the sake of convenience.

2. You bumped Boylan up to 7A. Why? Same convenient reason for dropping down those 8A programs?

Here was my rationale regarding private school concerns that others have raised in multiple posts. Again I could be completely mistaken but here's what I was thinking when drawing these up.

Private schools are multiplied unofficially in some cases under this proposal but it is by the private schools themselves not the IHSA. For example in 8A if it was felt that St. Rita was too small to compete in 8A they could be replaced with Benet, Carmel, Fenwick, or even St. Ignatius. That is up to the private schools to determine themselves and not the IHSA which I thought would be appealing. Ultimately we could create a scenario where no private schools play in 8A if we are using true enrollment numbers but I felt that would be a detriment to those schools for recruiting purposes and that they would actually prefer to play up in higher classes.

St. Rita and Mt. Carmel are interesting case studies because under the current district proposal they would be grouped with mostly CPS schools. What happens when those schools refuse to play and just forfeit the game? We could be looking at a possibility where Mt. Carmel and St. Rita have multiple forfeit weeks which is what currently happens in the CPS with some schools. Even if that isn't the case, these games will be so noncompetitive that I can't seeing it as being beneficial to these two programs.

For Boylan I felt that since historically they have played many 7A teams in their conference each year that they would prefer to continue that setup.

For Bishop Mac and IC I felt the same thing applied. For Bishop Mac they could always be moved down to 3A and at least play some similar sized local schools. For IC though I believe they would also be facing a lot more travel and potentially a CPS schedule of some schools as well. My understanding is that private schools would prefer to play each other even at the expense of having to play a class or two up but I could easily be mistaken on that opinion.

Finally the reason why I skipped over 4A and 3A with the privates is that the remaining private schools seemed as an average to be a 2A grouping. Does that mean 4A schools will play 1A schools? Yes it does. But I thought that these schools would fit best as one grouping. Perhaps it would work better based on pure geography, but again private schools lose their private school rivalries.
 
So much focus here on what is best for 8A and to a lesser extent 7A, but failing to consider how some goofy plan like this impacts the smaller schools downstate and thats where the votes are.
While you are correct that this plan does take a top down approach the same argument can be made that the current district proposal is even more goofy in that it throws out traditional conference allegiances in the higher classes just to appease those smaller schools downstate. How is that even close to fair for most 8A and 7A schools?

By keeping districts as I have done, I still think you can please those smaller schools in that you are grouping them together by enrollment and by district which essentially is what they voted for in the first place.
 
Everybody needs to read and re-read IHSA Policy 18, "Grouping and Seeding State Tournament Series". It makes it very clear that the objective of the State series in any sport is not necessarily to advance the best teams to the State Final.

NIUAlum2002's proposal is well intended but it does not square with Policy 18. This comes up often in other sports where the best programs are geographically concentrated.

The obvious difference between football and other sports is that, in other sports, all teams qualify for the state series. The IHSA could have almost pulled that off by shortening the football season to eight games and doubling the size of the playoff field. Only a handful of teams wouldn't have qualified, and those teams could have scheduled a ninth game against other non-qualifiers if they wished.

This arrangement is going to create more problems than it solves.
Isn't football always an outlier though compared to the other sports? It is after all the only sport in which not every team makes the playoffs so that alone makes it unique, thus an exception to Policy 18 I feel could be made in this case.

You might be right though in that most likely a plan like this would require a change to the IHSA Policy 18.
 
My whole starting offense and defense on Catholic HS football team was on scholarship!Public has few transfers here and there.Not even close.
Where did you go to high school? On my Catholic High school football team, we had one or two starters who received financial aid.
What high school was that?
Undercenter3rd1,
Where did you go to high school?

SO where did you go to high school? Inquiring minds want to know?
 
  • Like
Reactions: ignazio
I'm still wondering where this wonderful full-scholarships-for-football Catholic school is in Chicago.

Can you give us a hint?
 
I have only ever met or been friends with one person who claimed to be on a full ride football scholarship to one of the Chicago Catholic league powerhouses (with numerous state titles).

His claim seemed to have a little validity because his brother attended a different high school (public). But he could have been on a partial scholarship or aid program and exaggerating a little.

He was a very good player and All-stater, so maybe it's true. And that's the old All-state team where there was only one for all classes and one player from each position.

But all 22 starters? I'm doubtful. :rolleyes:
 
I have only ever met or been friends with one person who claimed to be on a full ride football scholarship to one of the Chicago Catholic league powerhouses (with numerous state titles).

His claim seemed to have a little validity because his brother attended a different high school (public). But he could have been on a partial scholarship or aid program and exaggerating a little.

He was a very good player and All-stater, so maybe it's true. And that's the old All-state team where there was only one for all classes and one player from each position.

But all 22 starters? I'm doubtful. :rolleyes:
 
I also know that there is no full scholarships,I was on a working scholarship back in the day for only partial.Catholic schools still get to recruit from anywhere.There are kids that go from inner city all the way to wilmette.
 
I also believe Catholic Hs programs have to be placed by there helmet count and winning percentages over last few yrs.You can’t have a team like st Rita play lower level because of lower enrollment!They need to play up at the highest district.Catholic schools have scholarships to pull in players.
Mt Carmel
Rita
Brother rice
Naz
Niles notredame
Montini
Carmel
Pats
Loyola
All those schools should be at district 8A
Then lets bring JCA up there too. I'm assuming they have close to as many helmets out there as BR, SR do. This crap of winning garbage 4A titles with recruited athletes and a comparable size team to the larger schools makes no sense. On one of the other threads it showed Loyola as having 400 more boys/1200 more students than BR, yet thats who we meet in 8A championship?
 
Then lets bring JCA up there too. I'm assuming they have close to as many helmets out there as BR, SR do. This crap of winning garbage 4A titles with recruited athletes and a comparable size team to the larger schools makes no sense. On one of the other threads it showed Loyola as having 400 more boys/1200 more students than BR, yet thats who we meet in 8A championship?

You would have preferred LWE?
 
Then lets bring JCA up there too. I'm assuming they have close to as many helmets out there as BR, SR do. This crap of winning garbage 4A titles with recruited athletes and a comparable size team to the larger schools makes no sense. On one of the other threads it showed Loyola as having 400 more boys/1200 more students than BR, yet thats who we meet in 8A championship?

JCA has 300 boys in the school, BR has over 800 and Rita has 575. In regards to roster size, during the regular season Rice listed 61 players on their varsity roster, Rita listed 67 players and JCA listed 47. Not quite the same numbers. And for the record, JCA did not win a 4A title, they won a 5A title against a similar school.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gene K.
I also know that there is no full scholarships,I was on a working scholarship back in the day for only partial.Catholic schools still get to recruit from anywhere.There are kids that go from inner city all the way to wilmette.
So there are teams out there who may give everyone on the football teams partial scholarships? You do know that if tuition is stated to be 13k that it really cost about 16K. Most CCL schools keep the costs down by alumni donations. So if a kid is only paying 10K that's 10k more than you are paying for your son in a public school. I hope you are sending a good check to the school you graduated from.
 
Then lets bring JCA up there too. I'm assuming they have close to as many helmets out there as BR, SR do. This crap of winning garbage 4A titles with recruited athletes and a comparable size team to the larger schools makes no sense. On one of the other threads it showed Loyola as having 400 more boys/1200 more students than BR, yet thats who we meet in 8A championship?
It should be helmet count!I just don’t know what is more even about helmet counts.
 
So there are teams out there who may give everyone on the football teams partial scholarships? You do know that if tuition is stated to be 13k that it really cost about 16K. Most CCL schools keep the costs down by alumni donations. So if a kid is only paying 10K that's 10k more than you are paying for your son in a public school. I hope you are sending a good check to the school you graduated from.
Not really at some public schools your real estate taxes portion of that bill goes to the area Hs which can be as much as 10k towards public Hs.Trust me I know my taxes are double that.So I can move if I wanted to a lower taxed area and send my kid to Catholic,
 
Not really at some public schools your real estate taxes portion of that bill goes to the area Hs which can be as much as 10k towards public Hs.Trust me I know my taxes are double that.So I can move if I wanted to a lower taxed area and send my kid to Catholic,
You know CCL parents pay property taxes too?
 
  • Like
Reactions: ignazio and USD24
I have seen recently kids paying like 7k out of 12k in some schools!
Because they play football or they have demonstrated financial need through formal application?The way you explained your personal experience sounds a lot like a work-study program. Did you work maintenance or as support staff in return for tuition credit?
 
  • Like
Reactions: USD24
I have only ever met or been friends with one person who claimed to be on a full ride football scholarship to one of the Chicago Catholic league powerhouses (with numerous state titles).His claim seemed to have a little validity because his brother attended a different high school (public). But he could have been on a partial scholarship or aid program and exaggerating a little. He was a very good player and All-stater, so maybe it's true. And that's the old All-state team where there was only one for all classes and one player from each position. But all 22 starters? I'm doubtful. :rolleyes:
I’m wondering? How many Pinocchio’s?
 
Because they play football or they have demonstrated financial need through formal application?The way you explained your personal experience sounds a lot like a work-study program. Did you work maintenance or as support staff in return for tuition credit?
Football!when I went it was working in school cleaning after football practice!Now if your good athlete they shave it off the top.I trained a qb a couple of yrs ago and he got 5k off of a Top Catholic Hs.
 
Football!when I went it was working in school cleaning after football practice!Now if your good athlete they shave it off the top.I trained a qb a couple of yrs ago and he got 5k off of a Top Catholic Hs.

You do understand that this done for students with financial need, not just athletes.
 
Do you give any scholarships to any of the quarterbacks you, ahem, train?
 
Football!when I went it was working in school cleaning after football practice!Now if your good athlete they shave it off the top.I trained a qb a couple of yrs ago and he got 5k off of a Top Catholic Hs.
So Yes it was a work program. Just like they offer now. Each Diocese audits tuition assistance, school's by law have to use a third party to evaluate financial need. I'm not saying that an alum might not write a check and send it in for tuition at some schools but all tuition billed and paid for has to match tuition assistance and endowment numbers. "Creative book keeping" would be very tough to get away with in the current landscape of Catholic schools.
 
  • Like
Reactions: USD24 and HRCJR
Then lets bring JCA up there too. I'm assuming they have close to as many helmets out there as BR, SR do. This crap of winning garbage 4A titles with recruited athletes and a comparable size team to the larger schools makes no sense. On one of the other threads it showed Loyola as having 400 more boys/1200 more students than BR, yet thats who we meet in 8A championship?
JCA will have about 12 total seniors on their team next year. That would equal really bad recruiting (or) none at all.

But give JCA one more year to hopefully get their Varsity numbers back up to 55-60 kids and (if I was in charge) I would offer BR a "Just to shut you up" Pre-season game or better yet maybe a Post-season game.

For now, why don't you take your best shot at Naz who still has sufficient numbers and let me know how that works out for you. :p
 
I trained a qb a couple of yrs ago and he got 5k off of a Top Catholic Hs.

That's awesome!

Do you know for a fact that NO NON-ATHLETES were receiving similar assistance at that school? If you don't know that for a fact, then there's nothing wrong with an athlete receiving assistance at that level as long as others are receiving it too, right?

Did you charge to train that kid? If so, then perhaps if that kid's parents weren't paying you to train their kid, they could have afforded full tuition at that school and wouldn't have needed the financial aid.
 
That's awesome!

Do you know for a fact that NO NON-ATHLETES were receiving similar assistance at that school? If you don't know that for a fact, then there's nothing wrong with an athlete receiving assistance at that level as long as others are receiving it too, right?

Did you charge to train that kid? If so, then perhaps if that kid's parents weren't paying you to train their kid, they could have afforded full tuition at that school and wouldn't have needed the financial aid.
No charge!!!i give back
 
That's awesome!

Do you know for a fact that NO NON-ATHLETES were receiving similar assistance at that school? If you don't know that for a fact, then there's nothing wrong with an athlete receiving assistance at that level as long as others are receiving it too, right?

Did you charge to train that kid? If so, then perhaps if that kid's parents weren't paying you to train their kid, they could have afforded full tuition at that school and wouldn't have needed the financial aid.
I have no problem at all with help or scholarships I got a scholarship,just saying Catholic has a advantage because of recruiting kids outside there area!So put the Catholic schools together in same or close divisions or districts.
 
JCA will have about 12 total seniors on their team next year. That would equal really bad recruiting (or) none at all.

But give JCA one more year to hopefully get their Varsity numbers back up to 55-60 kids and (if I was in charge) I would offer BR a "Just to shut you up" Pre-season game or better yet maybe a Post-season game.

For now, why don't you take your best shot at Naz who still has sufficient numbers and let me know how that works out for you. :p

JCA plays BR next year
 
Not really at some public schools your real estate taxes portion of that bill goes to the area Hs which can be as much as 10k towards public Hs.Trust me I know my taxes are double that.So I can move if I wanted to a lower taxed area and send my kid to Catholic,

You are paying 20K?
 
JCA will have about 12 total seniors on their team next year. That would equal really bad recruiting (or) none at all.

But give JCA one more year to hopefully get their Varsity numbers back up to 55-60 kids and (if I was in charge) I would offer BR a "Just to shut you up" Pre-season game or better yet maybe a Post-season game.

For now, why don't you take your best shot at Naz who still has sufficient numbers and let me know how that works out for you. :p
I think we'd be happy to accept it and look forward to it. Your poor little small school got close to running clocked by Marist, we beat them twice. We darn near running clocked Montini, you guys escaped them by a score I believe, but hey you are "state champs". Of something.
 
I think we'd be happy to accept it and look forward to it. Your poor little small school got close to running clocked by Marist, we beat them twice. We darn near running clocked Montini, you guys escaped them by a score I believe, but hey you are "state champs". Of something.
Yeah unfortunately the first JCA vs BR will happen this year (2019) while JCA is rebuilding and fuel your resentment of JCA's 2018 State Title. BR will be heavy favorites in that game and rightfully so.

But all things considered, the Hillmen will still show up and see if they can't steal a victory from the mighty Crusaders.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gene K.
Montini beat BR in 2017 season but that must have been a fluke. I was at the game versus BR in 2018. 14-0 BR at the half and then the wheels fell off for Montini after that. BR definitely the better team but the game was not close to being a running clock.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dual-triple_threat
Then lets bring JCA up there too. I'm assuming they have close to as many helmets out there as BR, SR do. This crap of winning garbage 4A titles with recruited athletes and a comparable size team to the larger schools makes no sense. On one of the other threads it showed Loyola as having 400 more boys/1200 more students than BR, yet thats who we meet in 8A championship?

While it may sound rational, helmet count is a terrible way to group teams for postseason consideration. Get a great team of 20 to 30 talented kids and then just cut the rest or relegate them to JV or IR. Too easy to place yourself in whatever class you want that way.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Quags57
I have no problem at all with help or scholarships I got a scholarship,just saying Catholic has a advantage because of recruiting kids outside there area!So put the Catholic schools together in same or close divisions or districts.

You are assuming that recruiting outside their area equates to athletic success. Tell that to St Pat's, Guerin Prep, St. Joe, Chicago Christian, DePaul Prep, etc. Simply because a private school has a 30 mile radius does not mean it can get anyone it wants within that radius to enroll.
 
ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT