So maybe the best solution is for the private schools to sit down in a back room and ask the 6-8 schools that you say do recruit to put their big boy pants on and move up a few classes on their own and let schools like Benet remain in a lower class????
Zunkel At It Again
- Thread starter cornerrat
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So maybe the best solution is for the private schools to sit down in a back room and ask the 6-8 schools that you say do recruit to put their big boy pants on and move up a few classes on their own and let schools like Benet remain in a lower class????
Not the worst idea HHS.
I've made my peace with the multiplier now that there's a waiver process in place.
But if the whole idea for separate classes is for competitive balance, then shouldn't a team who consistently tops out in one class be moved up, whether the school is publicly funded or not?
Of course, give the guys a chance to win a title, but if a team, say, finishes 2nd multiple times finally wins, why not move them up a class for a year? It would give the teams in their old class a fresh start, allowing them to face other opponents in the playoffs as well as giving other decent programs a chance to "get over the hump."
Now, we finally got the 1-32 seeding done. Next step is to get that seeding legitimatized, via computer. Then we can begin on a fair playoff class promotion process.
I've made my peace with the multiplier now that there's a waiver process in place.
But if the whole idea for separate classes is for competitive balance, then shouldn't a team who consistently tops out in one class be moved up, whether the school is publicly funded or not?
Of course, give the guys a chance to win a title, but if a team, say, finishes 2nd multiple times finally wins, why not move them up a class for a year? It would give the teams in their old class a fresh start, allowing them to face other opponents in the playoffs as well as giving other decent programs a chance to "get over the hump."
Now, we finally got the 1-32 seeding done. Next step is to get that seeding legitimatized, via computer. Then we can begin on a fair playoff class promotion process.
No, because the public schools all draw their kids from within their own geographic boundary..
Just out fairness Benet may not recruit in football, but they sure as hell recruit like crazy in girls volleyball and boys basketball so they are just as guilty as the football schools when it comes to pissing people off.
Seriously? Did you see a single boys basketball game last year? Can't speak to volleyball but boys basketball last year, the tallest kid they had on the floor was 6'3" and I don't think any of the graduating players have D1 offers, they got into the state finals game by playing the Princeton offense and tough defense.
They still have to score high enough on the entrance exam to get in (last year 500+ tested for 350 slots) and have to meet ongoing academic standards to stay in.
Your criteria appears to be they win so therefore they recruit. Before making such a broad statement take a look at the track of the "stars" they have had in basketball. Frank Kaminsky? Attended St. Joan from 1st grade - 8th grade, so he must have been identified in 1st grade as a future NBA player. On the girls side, Kathleen Doyle, Ms. Basketball Illinois, all 5 of her siblings attended Benet prior to her as well has her Mother, so I guess they identified her prior to conception. Some conspiracy. Well over 2/3rds of the Benet students were in Catholic grade/jr. high schools. kind of kills the recruiting issue as to public vs. private recruiting.
Back to the initial point, simply stating they recruit its unfair, they cheat, denigrates the hard work of players.
In the spirit of competition, all teams should want to play the best, especially if you are a team that want to win championships.
You made a similar statement about Whitney Young!! Impossible to get in unless you are a basketball player. Is it safe to say that you are using the same assumption based on success?
A statement like that displays a complete lack of understanding about the school and its academic criteria both to get in and more importantly stay in. Then again on this issue it appears to be much easier to make those statements than rely on any research or facts.
So your saying the if a kid isn't a division prospect high schools won't recruit them to play a sport? I've seen it over the years with kids coming out of St. Mikes and St. James, you are a good basket ball player why go to St. Francis or WWS come to Benet. I guess since they were coming out of Catholic feeder that doesn't count as sports recruiting.
Exactly my point. Everyone assumes that you have to alter something within your school or entice players through recruiting, which neither may be the case for successful schools. All Schools have good and bad years with sports especially in the larger classes. In the end, ALL schools in a LARGE populated areas recruit kids to either attend their school (private) or convince the kid to stay home (local public). Success should never be attributed to recruiting in 7A or larger schools.
The true issue is with the smaller populated areas where recruiting happens (private) and the rules limit public kids communication with the high school therefore giving private schools and advantage. There is also limited possibility of kids moving into those smaller areas which ultimately create the problems we have today with leveling the playing field. Especially when great for each type of team is completely different. Example: The best Washington team will be a great 5A team that most likely will not be able to compete in 6A. On the flip side, a great Naz, Montini, SHG and JC team would beat most 6A - 8A teams both private and public. I think is absolutely fair for those teams to get players and students by recruiting however I don't think its fair for Washington or any town similar to have to play those teams in the playoffs. Just like from a public to public example ESL playing Columbia or Dupo is completely not fair. Enrollment classes ensure that this will almost never happen however enrollment, multiplier, nor success factor totally prevent schools like Washington, Columbia, etc from playing SHG, Naz or Montini to win a championship. On the flip side, there are private schools that are not interested in extremely high level sports and shouldn't be listed as such. Maybe you have one private division and allow the successful private schools that are interested participate in the 7A/8A playoff system. Just a thought.
I've seen their coaches at more than 1 youth football game. Was it because it was in their backyard. Doubtful.
I'm asking this out of curiosity, because I have no idea. Do you see any JCA coaches at youth football games? I've talked to a few JC parents whose kids played for the Plainfield Jr. Cat program. They tell me Naz coaches are consistently at those games.
One thing not discussed Catholic High schools is the greatest recruiting tool: family tradition.
Many students graduating from Catholic High Schools this spring are the 3rd or sometimes 4th generation in a family to graduate from that school. Many more are the 3rd, 4th or 5th generation to graduate from a Catholic High School. Both of my parents went to Catholic grade schools, high schools and colleges.
I, along with my siblings, went to Catholic grade schools, high schools and colleges and for two of us Catholic Graduate schools. All of my parent's 9 grandchildren are in either a Catholic Grade School, High School or College. My four nieces and nephews on my wife's side all attend Catholic Grade School.
Everyone of my nieces and nephews in high school play sports. No recruiting needed and no one offered scholarships.
For my families and many of my friend's family it is not a question of do I go to my local public high school or a Catholic school but which Catholic school will I attend. I recently was with a large number of my college friends who now live all over the country. The vast majority send their children to Catholic schools - no recruiting needed. And almost all play one sport or more.
I looked at the baseball, football and basketball rosters of my son's schools of the 15-16 year. Roughly 75% of the students went to Catholic Grade Schools and overall another 15% went to different types of private (Montessori, Jewish, etc.) schools. I also know that a few the boys who did not go to Catholic grade schools have parents who grew up in the Catholic school system.
I can comfortably say that most kids who are at Catholic high schools were destined to attend one from the time they were in kindergarten.
Many students graduating from Catholic High Schools this spring are the 3rd or sometimes 4th generation in a family to graduate from that school. Many more are the 3rd, 4th or 5th generation to graduate from a Catholic High School. Both of my parents went to Catholic grade schools, high schools and colleges.
I, along with my siblings, went to Catholic grade schools, high schools and colleges and for two of us Catholic Graduate schools. All of my parent's 9 grandchildren are in either a Catholic Grade School, High School or College. My four nieces and nephews on my wife's side all attend Catholic Grade School.
Everyone of my nieces and nephews in high school play sports. No recruiting needed and no one offered scholarships.
For my families and many of my friend's family it is not a question of do I go to my local public high school or a Catholic school but which Catholic school will I attend. I recently was with a large number of my college friends who now live all over the country. The vast majority send their children to Catholic schools - no recruiting needed. And almost all play one sport or more.
I looked at the baseball, football and basketball rosters of my son's schools of the 15-16 year. Roughly 75% of the students went to Catholic Grade Schools and overall another 15% went to different types of private (Montessori, Jewish, etc.) schools. I also know that a few the boys who did not go to Catholic grade schools have parents who grew up in the Catholic school system.
I can comfortably say that most kids who are at Catholic high schools were destined to attend one from the time they were in kindergarten.
So in a school of lets say 600 students. 60 kids can be the result recruiting. You can definitely fit 10 football players 4 basketball players each (girls and boys for a total of 8) 5 baseball players giving you a total of 23 high quality athletes of the 60 non catholic/ private upbringing students. That also give you another 37 students that can go either way. Most high level college football teams only have about 35 to 40 studs mix with 45 slightly above average ball players. 10% is plenty and definitely enough to field a high quality sports team at a private school.
The ability to recruit is huge and its shameful for people to act like it is not. Its equally as shameful for public schools (in a larger populated area) to pretend that they are the victims. I believe the only argument is from a 3A/4A/5A school having to play any ESCC or CCL school in the playoffs.
lets define what you mean by "recruiting" since it appears that regardless of what the facts are you are convinced that there is a juggernaut of a recruiting machine out there "stealing" kids from public schools. Apparently the parents of these recruits are making their decision solely based upon an athletic dream. It has nothing to do with their Catholic upbringing (k-8 schooling), it has nothing to do with their Faith, it has nothing to do with multi-generational family tradition of attending a school, it has nothing to do with sacrificing other luxuries to drop $11k - $17k per year on an education that the parents think fits their child better, it only has to do with athletics.
So by recruiting are we talking about a cadre of recruiters searching high and low for stand out athletes, then following those 8th graders around offering them cars, free education, jobs for their parents, and all kinds of other enticements to just please attend our school and help push us over the top on our drive to win another championship?
or are you saying "recruiting" when someone tells a student already considering Catholic or private schools "hey if you are looking at Catholic/private schools, please consider us?" BTW, when you come to our school you are going to have to pass the entrance exam, you are going to have to maintain the same GPA as the rest of the students or be asked to leave, you are going to pay $11k-$17k.
In short are you saying that any student that chooses not to go to the public school regardless of reason is recruited?
Your breakdown above is the most far fetched statement so far in this thread. except for those few notorious programs that are outliers there is no basis for that statement. go tour one of the non-outlier schools see their facilities and it might give you different perspective.
And not for nothing, your statement is also not factual. Last year there were no 3A or 4A schools in the ESCC. There were 3 teams in 5A playoffs and they played each other in the second and third rounds.
A couple of things.
1. There was a CCL team that won 3A. Just in case you were concern about me mentioning 3A.
2. I never said a private school was "stealing" from anyone. I said they have to recruit ALL of their students which mean they are allowed to recruit their athletes as well. Some take advantage and some don't. In the end they ALL recruit for whatever it is that they want or wish to have. It could be sports or academics, the bottom line they can recruit. The same can be said for highly populated public schools in terms of keeping their kids home. You can argue that until you blue in the face but it doesn't change the reality.
3. I never said a private team is creating a juggernaut however I do feel that pretending that Benet Academy and Washington high school is the same in terms of sports is ridiculous.
4. Last but not least, I never said that any kid the go to private is recruited. I clearly stated that 10% in my example (60 kids) out of 600 were.
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LHS - How do you truly identify an 8th grader who is going to be "high quality athlete?" I cannot think of a way you can predict the performance of a player in his\hers senior year based on their 8th grade performance. Professionals very often fail after watching 4 years of college play.
The best basketball player my son faced in grade school was cut after sophomore year. All his peers caught up to him. Best overall athlete in my son's 8th grade class was a 5'9" 150 pound great hockey football basketball player. He is now a 5'9" 150 pound hockey player who did not make the varsity team his junior year.
My son's school is over 18k a year. Roughly 40% of the kids who apply to get in. Recruiting consists of an open house and a shadow day.
The best basketball player my son faced in grade school was cut after sophomore year. All his peers caught up to him. Best overall athlete in my son's 8th grade class was a 5'9" 150 pound great hockey football basketball player. He is now a 5'9" 150 pound hockey player who did not make the varsity team his junior year.
My son's school is over 18k a year. Roughly 40% of the kids who apply to get in. Recruiting consists of an open house and a shadow day.
They are not the same, in football last year Washington was 5A Benet was 7A.
Back to not sure what your definition of recruiting is. 500+ chose to take the test last year for 350 slots, which means there is more demand for the school than supply. If the definition of recruiting is a student/family chooses to attend a school (and pay for the privilege) rather than be forced to attend a school than yeah, I guess they recruit. The theory of 10% of a student body are recruited athletes is some kind of alternative reality.
Normdog....I see gdfthr did not answer my question about JCA coaches at youth football games. From what I hear, JCA is not one of your conference opponents who recruit football players. I could be wrong, because I don't personally keep up with that.
Only one I have personally seen is Naz. As noted by another post, awful tough to project an 8th grader. May happen, but, just doesn't seem to be as widespread at most privates as the amount of angst that is raised over it. Never going to be a perfect system. trying to "adjust" for the outlier schools punish the vast majority there is not an issue with. the proverbial sledgehammer to a flea
And not for nothing, those majority private schools that do not partake have to play those same outlier schools that do, frankly they compete against them in a higher percentage rate both in conference/playoffs than the publics do and then have the double whammy of being punished for their behavior.
PJJP,
Yes, JCA coaches are regularly at a variety of youth football travel games, as is Neuqua, Waubonsie, Naperville Central, Naperville North, Benet, Montini, Providence, WWS, Wheaton Academy, St. Francis, St Charles north, Glenbard North, Glenbard West, Plainfield East, Plainfield North, Oswego, Oswego East, Bolingbrook, and a few others that I can't remember off the top of my head.
Yes, JCA coaches are regularly at a variety of youth football travel games, as is Neuqua, Waubonsie, Naperville Central, Naperville North, Benet, Montini, Providence, WWS, Wheaton Academy, St. Francis, St Charles north, Glenbard North, Glenbard West, Plainfield East, Plainfield North, Oswego, Oswego East, Bolingbrook, and a few others that I can't remember off the top of my head.
Normdog,
Pretend all you like but Benet Recruits period. They recruit athletes just like they recruit every other student and just like all the other Catholics/privates that you'd like to lump into a "different" group. They recruit for several sports. By the way I think they should recruit.
Pretend all you like but Benet Recruits period. They recruit athletes just like they recruit every other student and just like all the other Catholics/privates that you'd like to lump into a "different" group. They recruit for several sports. By the way I think they should recruit.
If colleges can recruit 8th graders, why can't a high school staff identify talent???
Do you think all those youth players show up and make the tunnel for JCA just because they want to. JCA recruits the Ravens heavily to the point that coaches are at games and they also play at JCA's home field and practice in the schools backyard. Just happens that they have been losing all the high profile kids to Providence lately.
Maybe that was a Benedictine hat I saw at my nephews game them. Silly me thought it was Benet.
I am truly missing your point. One kid that has been talked about on this board is a kid at Althoff that lead the team to a title in Basketball. Although he didn't grow to 6'6 like people thought, he is still very good. He scored 50 pts in a game as an 8th grader. I agree some are hit a miss, but, you can't tell me that people can't identify talent early.
Benet was multiplied to 7A correct? What class is Benet without the multiplier?
The 10% number comes from your theory that 90% of the kids are legacy or something similar. Each school is different therefore you can put a universal number on the kids recruited every private school..
My definition of recruiting is convincing a kid to attend your school based on information provided. If you ask a kid what school he is going to and its not yours but, somehow after information is provided he attends your school, recruiting happened.
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Every private high school recruits. They wouldn't exist if they didn't.
One would think, in this digital image age, that videos or still shots of dubious contacts by public or private school FB "reps" with younger athletes at their contests or practices might get circulated given the volume of complaints in forums such as this.
There have been 8th grade kids commit to schools, doesn't matter what my definition is
In Chicago, the best recruiting for the Catholic schools has been performed by the public school system.
HHS - Please name some players who have committed to a college in 8th grade and then actually attended that college. Thank you.
If CHAS dropped the Agriculture schtick (really a roundabout way to bus without busing the way Boston did) and became a neighborhood high school with strict boundaries SR, BR, Marist, and MC drop a class in the playoffs. Its a different dynamic then LA and some ESCC schools where faith and sincere devotion to ones childhood Catholic education are bigger factors for deciding to attend that HS than not having a realistic option for public school.
Normdog: If you think Naz is an "outlier" in the ESCC you need to get out from behind your keyboard. Every single ESCC team recruits. So what. Truth be told every successful Suburban Public School football program also does some form of recruiting through feeder or other programs, as they should. Again, so what. I am just curious if you have information that NAZ has violated an ISHA rule. If so, what rule and how was it violated. If you have no such information you may want to try generalizing your rhetoric rather than showing your bias..
I agree with an earlier post. If they are to separate the non-boundary schools why not do it for all sports. Not just football. And boys and girls sports alike. Makes no sense for the state to do it just for football.
Doesn't matter if they attend there or not, they are still recruited.. I work for NSA softball, we have college coaches recruiting our 14U tournaments all the time and occasionally I see them offering kids.. So don't pretend high schools can't recruit kids because they are only junior high..
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