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Zunkel At It Again

cornerrat

Well-Known Member
Aug 1, 2009
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All.... Nat Zunkel has officially submitted a proposal for an IHSA by-law to separate public and "non-public" schools during the football playoffs. A total of eight classes, 6 public and 2 non-public.(64 teams)

Protocol for this is to have town hall meetings to gauge interest. Then I believe it would go to the IHSA legislative branch where they would look at it and then decide to put it up for a vote with the membership or ignore it.... Ratsy
 
All.... The whining (Zunkel) on his radio interview (wrmj) is quite telling. Sigh.... Ratsy
 
I think it would be cool to at least try it out. Have the Catholic Champ play the #1 public champ (usually 8A). Try it for 2 years and see what happens.
 
I mean at this point I say take a look at it.
A quick count and only about 30 non public teams qualified last year so we are going to double that number and reduce public by 30-34. Wait until that outcry happens when no 5-4 teams make public playoffs. Good luck trying to schedule a game with a public school in the future if your a moderately successful Catholic school. The unintended consequences may be worse than what they have now.
 
Listening to his radio interview, I can't keep up with all his factual inaccuracies.
LINK

But, perhaps to placate those public schools who think it's unfair for a family to seek better educational opportunity, we could institute some sort of athletic boundaries.
Well call it a Play-tation.
And if any of those uppity folks on your Play-tation escape, we'll have them shackled and shipped back to you.

Sound fair?
 
Silver Lining - it might vitiate the need for the Catholic Prep Bowl playoffs in that it would just be most likely a semifinalist or who lost either a 7A or 3A semi (as an example of what the "private-only" classes).

As far as the reduction of 30+ public teams, perhaps some or even all of the CPS selective enrollment and charter network schools should be directed into the private brackets (crickets and or "hell naw", depending on where the first town halls are) -- if 4-5 or 3-6 teams are needed to fill out the whole field.
 
I don't think they are trying to punish parents that want a better education for their children. I don't see any Catholic schools listed in the top HS in Illinois. Not one Catholic is represented in the top 30 high schools in the state. There are only 4 Catholic schools in the top 20 private schools in the state (8 Benet, 9 St Iggy, 15 Loyola, 19 Fenwick). Only 1 recent state title in that group. I think Zunkel is more concerned with the schools that have kids bussed from 28 miles away to play football. Just a guess though.
 
I don't think they are trying to punish parents that want a better education for their children. I don't see any Catholic schools listed in the top HS in Illinois. Not one Catholic is represented in the top 30 high schools in the state. There are only 4 Catholic schools in the top 20 private schools in the state (8 Benet, 9 St Iggy, 15 Loyola, 19 Fenwick). Only 1 recent state title in that group. I think Zunkel is more concerned with the schools that have kids bussed from 28 miles away to play football. Just a guess though.
But how many CPS schools (not selective enrollment, which are notoriously difficult for certain kids to receive admittance to) are in the top 30 high schools in the state? For many Chicago parents, CPS is just not an option. The better education comment could be compared to a CPS schools.
 
I agree that the Catholics are a better option for the average Chicago kid. I don't think most people have any issue with that. Some of these kids travel from other states or spend more time traveling to and from school than they do at school. They pass multiple great public schools on the way. I personally like the privates in the ihsa. It helps give legitimacy to Illinois football as a whole. The problem that I think most public school coaches have is the unregulated recruiting that goes on. Go to a youth game of some of the better travel programs. Private school coaches are lined up along the fence, or sometimes on the field. They are just waiting to talk to these kids. That being said, CPS coaches do the same thing. Two wrongs don't make a right.
 
Nat is a whinny little weasel, his motive is pure sour grapes for getting trounced by private schools in recent years, BUT his proposal actually isnt that crazy and is similar to what other states already have in place. This would be much, much better than the multiplier and success factor. Perfect? Absolutely not. Will it have unintended consequences? Of course. But it is the lesser of 2 evils when it comes to the multiplier/success factor.

My guess the unintended consequences would be the following
- Scheduling
- 5-4 publics looking on the outside come playoff time
- in the private playoffs 1st round trouncing of like 80-0 (ex MC vs a 3-6 private team)
- In the end the "haves" of both public and private will continue to have a majority of the titles.

In the end the only schools who lose are BMacs of the world and 6A/5A/4A private schools who will be force to face each other in the playoffs.
 
I don't think they are trying to punish parents that want a better education for their children. I don't see any Catholic schools listed in the top HS in Illinois. Not one Catholic is represented in the top 30 high schools in the state. There are only 4 Catholic schools in the top 20 private schools in the state (8 Benet, 9 St Iggy, 15 Loyola, 19 Fenwick). Only 1 recent state title in that group. I think Zunkel is more concerned with the schools that have kids bussed from 28 miles away to play football. Just a guess though.

Iluvftbl1 - You missed 3 other Catholic Schools in the list: 7. Woodlands, 13. Willows Academy 14 Northridge Prep. Of the top 20 private schools, I believe, only Benet, Ignatius, Loyola and Fenwick have football teams. I used this list for my top 20 Private Schools

I could not find any list that combines public and private schools to get the Top 30 high schools. What list were you using?
 
I agree that the Catholics are a better option for the average Chicago kid. I don't think most people have any issue with that. Some of these kids travel from other states or spend more time traveling to and from school than they do at school. They pass multiple great public schools on the way. I personally like the privates in the ihsa. It helps give legitimacy to Illinois football as a whole. The problem that I think most public school coaches have is the unregulated recruiting that goes on. Go to a youth game of some of the better travel programs. Private school coaches are lined up along the fence, or sometimes on the field. They are just waiting to talk to these kids. That being said, CPS coaches do the same thing. Two wrongs don't make a right.
I guess I selfishly do not want to see them separate the payoffs. I personally love getting he chance to see teams and facilities that I don't normally get to see in the regular season. I was very upset last season when I couldn't make it out to the MC game at GBW and even more upset when multiple people told me what a great atmosphere it is to watch a game at. It has been added to my bucket list to catch a big game out there to experience the atmosphere that people had at that game last year.

As far as some kids passing multiple great public schools to attend private ones, it happens and it is a fact of life. Some kids follow in their families footsteps and go to the same school as brothers and fathers. Private schools need to look all over to get enough kids to come in and fill the desks.
 
I agree that the Catholics are a better option for the average Chicago kid. I don't think most people have any issue with that. Some of these kids travel from other states or spend more time traveling to and from school than they do at school. They pass multiple great public schools on the way. I personally like the privates in the ihsa. It helps give legitimacy to Illinois football as a whole. The problem that I think most public school coaches have is the unregulated recruiting that goes on. Go to a youth game of some of the better travel programs. Private school coaches are lined up along the fence, or sometimes on the field. They are just waiting to talk to these kids. That being said, CPS coaches do the same thing. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Why aren't the public coaches out and recruiting to keep those kids??? Seems to me some public coaches are mad because they are being outworked.
 
I agree that the Catholics are a better option for the average Chicago kid. I don't think most people have any issue with that. Some of these kids travel from other states or spend more time traveling to and from school than they do at school. They pass multiple great public schools on the way. I personally like the privates in the ihsa. It helps give legitimacy to Illinois football as a whole. The problem that I think most public school coaches have is the unregulated recruiting that goes on. Go to a youth game of some of the better travel programs. Private school coaches are lined up along the fence, or sometimes on the field. They are just waiting to talk to these kids. That being said, CPS coaches do the same thing. Two wrongs don't make a right.
It sounds like there are public coaches out there who are mad because they are being out worked. Why are they not out talking to kids and trying to keep them?
 
QBC. Recruiting is illegal per ihsa rules in case you weren't aware
 
It sounds like there are public coaches out there who are mad because they are being out worked. Why are they not out talking to kids and trying to keep them?

Because it is considered recruiting even if those kids are currently in your district.
 
Why just football. Let's do it for basketball where the publics out perform privates. Track? Baseball? I don't get the fascination with changing the system for one sport.
 
The good Publics are out there with the Privates trying to "steal" their kids.
 
Why just football. Let's do it for basketball where the publics out perform privates. Track? Baseball? I don't get the fascination with changing the system for one sport.

Didn't it used to be like that about 5-8 years ago? They had the public league playoffs and the winner of that advanced to the state final 4 or something along those lines.

I guess it's the "grass is always greener" scenario. But you know what they always say...."don't let the green grass fool ya".
 
Listening to his radio interview, I can't keep up with all his factual inaccuracies.

Ignazio:

This is low-stakes hashtag activism. Listening to Zunkel over the radio, one can hear the steam escaping from his ears.

This radio interview is so replete with error it is both comical and resembles fingernails scratching on a blackboard.

Zunkel's words are an implicit admission the multiplier and success factor are miserable failures. It is such a glaring admission of failure, he can not even bring himself to utter the qualifier "Catholic" when referring to private schools.

What is most disturbing about his appearance with the host on WRMJ is he unwittingly admits precisely what motivates his proposal: The desire to sweep away any Catholic school which presents a challenge to a public school in the playoffs.

At the 7:50 mark, Zunkel commits his most fatal error: Stumbling badly, he refers to "these private schools," halts to correct himself and continues with "excuse me, the non-public schools, but everybody knows what we mean by that."

Gee, does Zunkel mean "Catholic schools?"

At the 8:10 mark, Zunkel refers to "going to a place where you have a really good chance of winning a state championship."

In uttering this waste, Zunkel reveals himself to possess a pathological fixation with winning and winning alone.

The very epicenter of the multiplier and success factor is rooted in winning and uncovers precisely how the attachment to winning has eclipsed the far greater virtues learned through high school athletics such as personal discipline, confidence building, cooperation, dignity, harmony, honor, integrity, loyalty, perseverance, purpose, respect, responsibility, unity and vision.

In concert with proposals such as this, largely pilfered from New Jersey's framework, the multiplier and success factor are exposed to be nothing more than state-sponsored strategies to tilt the field further in favor of public schools.

I'd like Zunkel to furnish hard evidence to his hysterical conclusion "non-private" schools are witnessing consistency in the number of athletes competing in football in contrast to the "athlete-poor" public schools which he claims have experiencing a drop in the number of youths involved in public programs. This is utterly preposterous. He cites "concussions" as one factor leading to a drop off in the number of kids involved in football, but insists the alleged drop off only affects public schools.

Is Zunkel implying parents of children at a Catholic schools are less concerned about the health and safety of their sons in comparison to the parents who send their kids to public schools?

The most comical portion of the interview is the part where an endless string of "statistics" are rattled off depicting the high success rate among Catholic schools in the playoffs and earning state titles.

These "statistics" are constantly waved like a bloody shirt to justify further IHSA policy changes.

The IHSA implemented two successive policies to prevent such aberrations from occurring, but they did persist and this has angered public schools and now inspires yet another new proposal.

I would actually have a bit of respect for any IHSA official, public school coach or administrator backing the multiplier or success factor if they would discard the tenth-rate platitudes and discontinue with the sermons about "fairness" when they roll out these policies or new proposals, and just admit they are looking to facilitate more public school titles.

This is a disgraceful way to begin a new job.
 
Ignazio:

This is low-stakes hashtag activism. Listening to Zunkel over the radio, one can hear the steam escaping from his ears.

This radio interview is so replete with error it is both comical and resembles fingernails scratching on a blackboard.

Zunkel's words are an implicit admission the multiplier and success factor are miserable failures. It is such a glaring admission of failure, he can not even bring himself to utter the qualifier "Catholic" when referring to private schools.

What is most disturbing about his appearance with the host on WRMJ is he unwittingly admits precisely what motivates his proposal: The desire to sweep away any Catholic school which presents a challenge to a public school in the playoffs.

At the 7:50 mark, Zunkel commits his most fatal error: Stumbling badly, he refers to "these private schools," halts to correct himself and continues with "excuse me, the non-public schools, but everybody knows what we mean by that."

Gee, does Zunkel mean "Catholic schools?"

At the 8:10 mark, Zunkel refers to "going to a place where you have a really good chance of winning a state championship."

In uttering this waste, Zunkel reveals himself to possess a pathological fixation with winning and winning alone.

The very epicenter of the multiplier and success factor is rooted in winning and uncovers precisely how the attachment to winning has eclipsed the far greater virtues learned through high school athletics such as personal discipline, confidence building, cooperation, dignity, harmony, honor, integrity, loyalty, perseverance, purpose, respect, responsibility, unity and vision.

In concert with proposals such as this, largely pilfered from New Jersey's framework, the multiplier and success factor are exposed to be nothing more than state-sponsored strategies to tilt the field further in favor of public schools.

I'd like Zunkel to furnish hard evidence to his hysterical conclusion "non-private" schools are witnessing consistency in the number of athletes competing in football in contrast to the "athlete-poor" public schools which he claims have experiencing a drop in the number of youths involved in public programs. This is utterly preposterous. He cites "concussions" as one factor leading to a drop off in the number of kids involved in football, but insists the alleged drop off only affects public schools.

Is Zunkel implying parents of children at a Catholic schools are less concerned about the health and safety of their sons in comparison to the parents who send their kids to public schools?

The most comical portion of the interview is the part where an endless string of "statistics" are rattled off depicting the high success rate among Catholic schools in the playoffs and earning state titles.

These "statistics" are constantly waved like a bloody shirt to justify further IHSA policy changes.

The IHSA implemented two successive policies to prevent such aberrations from occurring, but they did persist and this has angered public schools and now inspires yet another new proposal.

I would actually have a bit of respect for any IHSA official, public school coach or administrator backing the multiplier or success factor if they would discard the tenth-rate platitudes and discontinue with the sermons about "fairness" when they roll out these policies or new proposals, and just admit they are looking to facilitate more public school titles.

This is a disgraceful way to begin a new job.



As a public school person the attempt is not to win more titles, it is to win the 3A and 5A titles! The rest of the championships can be private and you will not hear one peep from anyone. Just a thought.
 
As a public school person the attempt is not to win more titles, it is to win the 3A and 5A titles! The rest of the championships can be private and you will not hear one peep from anyone. Just a thought.
I would even say it's just about 5A - the rest of the classes the numbers don't support the theory of private domination
 
All.... Nat Zunkel has officially submitted a proposal for an IHSA by-law to separate public and "non-public" schools during the football playoffs. A total of eight classes, 6 public and 2 non-public.(64 teams)

Protocol for this is to have town hall meetings to gauge interest. Then I believe it would go to the IHSA legislative branch where they would look at it and then decide to put it up for a vote with the membership or ignore it.... Ratsy

It's best the way It is right now. If you want to improve it, go back to 6 classes with publics and privates included in each class.

Stop the whining! Publics won 4 state titles last year, Privates won 4 state titles last year.
 
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It's best the way It is right now. If you want to improve it, go back to 6 classes with publics and privates included in each class.

Stop the whining! Publics won 4 state titles last year, Privates won 4 state titles last year.

Anyone whining, give them a passifire!

So we have an even number of private and public schools in the state?
 
So we have an even number of private and public schools in the state?

All.... Not relevant. There will always be a number of schools in Illinois who excel in sports despite discriminatory policies being thrown at them. They are just that good. Ratsy
 
All.... Not relevant. There will always be a number of schools in Illinois who excel in sports despite discriminatory policies being thrown at them. They are just that good. Ratsy

How is it not relevant??? It's a public vs private issue and he brings up that the private schools only won half the titles, what he failed to mention is that the private schools only make up 15% of the IHSA membership..
 
How is it not relevant??? It's a public vs private issue and he brings up that the private schools only won half the titles, what he failed to mention is that the private schools only make up 15% of the IHSA membership..

All.... Sigh.... You have beat that drum for years and I see you continue to stick with it. Take a few minutes reading and contemplating my previous post. It should come to even you eventually. Ratsy
 
All.... Sigh.... You have beat that drum for years and I see you continue to stick with it. Take a few minutes reading and contemplating my previous post. It should come to even you eventually. Ratsy

Just because you say the same stupid crap over and over, doesn't make it true...but of course you also feel the private schools are discriminated AGAINST.... LOL
 
All.... Sigh.... You have beat that drum for years and I see you continue to stick with it. Take a few minutes reading and contemplating my previous post. It should come to even you eventually. Ratsy

All.... Or not. (lol) Ratsy
 
How is it not relevant??? It's a public vs private issue and he brings up that the private schools only won half the titles, what he failed to mention is that the private schools only make up 15% of the IHSA membership..

It is even better. 576 High Schools played football in Illinois last season. 63 of them where private schools. That is 10.9% of the football schools. Private Catholic schools won 50% of the football championships. That was with multipliers and success factors.

Maybe it is not all recruiting. Maybe it is the structure of the schools, the expectations of effort placed on the players and the commitment of the coaching staff, administration and parents.

My son plays football and baseball at a private Catholic school. No one he plays with receives any scholarships. Some get financial aid but that is administered by a 3rd party. His team made the 6A state playoffs last year. During the regular season they played two 2015 State Champions and one semifinalist. Overall they played 5 playoff teams during the regulars season.

His team had 27 players on it.

I think it is a little more than recruiting.
 
Honestly, what this comes down to is the increased pressure on coaches and programs to make the playoffs. If a coach of a good program doesn't make the playoffs a few years running, he's on the hot-seat- getting pressure from all sides. Because of that added pressure, making the playoffs has become an end-all-be-all thing, and everybody's wrangling for the best position to get in. It is just like college coaches "petitioning the media" to get into the top spots to make the bowls or now, their playoffs.
Is this a positive development for amateur athletics? In this coach's opinion, no. Is it going away? For sure not. High school sports -especially football- is becoming a bigger business than ever before, and that trend isn't changing.
 
How is it not relevant??? It's a public vs private issue and he brings up that the private schools only won half the titles, what he failed to mention is that the private schools only make up 15% of the IHSA membership..

My son and daughter attend Benet. My daughter is older and not athletic, my son is athletic and does play football. Our factors in choosing Benet in order were:

1. Faith
2. Academics (28.9 ACT average last year, private schools are not "ranked" on those various "rankings")
3. My wife went to school there also and due to positive experience wanted it for our children.

You will notice that absent from that list is football or any athletics, which did not even enter the equation, despite my son having some success. As I write a substantial check each year for tuition I am reminded of our reasons for the decision and don't regret it. Lets not even talk about that I am subsidizing the students in the public schools with my taxes, its a decision we made. Don't even start down the path of we can afford it so its no big deal, because its not accurate. What is accurate is we made a conscious decision to send them there and forgo other luxuries in our priority list.

if you were to tour the "facilities" you would find the laughable compared to the public schools (that I subsidize). There are 6-8 well known programs that are private (a couple in our conference), that do recruit and do all those "evil" things that other programs complain about, including the parents in our program. Yet you want to paint the broad brush of all private schools because of the deeds of those well known programs. Even using the 63 private number, which I doubt is accurate, that means a 10-11% factor of "problem" programs you want to blow up AGAIN the existing system.

While you are lamenting "all" the private schools that are recruiting you are curiously silent on schools such as Whitney Young, a HS that is virtually impossible to get into if you live in Chicago unless you are a very good basketball player from somewhere within CPS borders. I don't hear the outrage over the entire starting Bolingbrook girls basketball team moving into the same 1 bedroom apartment in Homewood-Flossmoor when the coach just happened to switch jobs.

The multiplier is a punitive system, there is no other way to view it. in the 2014-2015 season Benet was slotted into 8A play offs. Even with the multiplier applied they were the smallest enrollment in 8A, they had a grand total of 57 Varsity players at the start of the season. Not a single player was cut. Yet, for all those chest thumping "its not fair" proponents, its not punitive enough you want to make it even more difficult.

Lastly, let me be blunt in summary. Given the above factors, I find it offensively insulting that some peoples fixation on 6-8 programs want to not examine internally where their program can improve, but, point the finger at a minuscule "boogie man" and not at the effort and accomplishments of the vast majority of private schools that do not recruit. The "its not fair they recruit" statement/philosophy is not only completely inaccurate but also diminishes efforts of the students.
 
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