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Proposal to replace multiplier

Well I disagree with ramblin or anyone who suggests separation might be preferable. I think both groups are served best together in a combined association. Not the least of which being it serves interests well beyond football. It's not like the Catholic schools are impervious from infighting and are a perfect unified bunch as-is. But the depth of competition and quality is definitely enriched by all being involved.
 
And what about the other disparities? Why not address the weak ass schools that are inappropriately classified instead of simply starting and stopping with one conference? Why single out one conference? Seems discriminatory to me.

Says who? Why not address the weak ass public schools instead?


SAYS WHO??? Why do you assume that it's one conference that is at fault? Why don't you instead assume that some schools don't belong, competitively speaking, into the classifications they are in? Start there.

Only because I am sick and tired of the IHSA and public school apologists treating private schools as if they are villains and scoundrels that should be punished for their success.


Hell no. We are member schools. All members should be treated the same. Find another system that doesn't discriminate.
Ramblinman, please be careful. You sound like you are whining. Isn't that what you always complain the weak public schools do?

In any case, I am working on a more comprehensive proposal that deals with the weaker schools and the weaker conferences. The work is time consuming and will likely take several months to complete. I am confident you will not like the result because I can't think of anything I've written yet that you have liked. Nevertheless, I am trying to address your concerns that there are too many blowouts. I am doing so in a way that addresses both the circumstances on the playing field but also the practical concerns of who comprises the IHSA membership and what might be acceptable to them. It is a difficult task but one that I think may be good exercise for my mind. That is probably the true value of the effort, for I hold no illusions that anyone takes my thoughts seriously or are influenced by them.
 
A recent post on a different thread indicated that, according to CalPreps, the CCL/ESCC has the top three conferences in the state, and four of the top five. That analysis used average CalPreps power ratings. If one wants to reduce the number of blowouts, which is a stated goal of "ramblinman", that disparity between the CCL/ESCC and the remainder of the state needs to be addressed. If one wants to reduce the discontent being expressed by public schools, the disparity between the CCL/ESCC and the remainder of the state needs to be addressed. In short, the reality that the CCL/ESCC is playing a much higher caliber of football than the remainder of the state needs to be addressed.

"Ramblinman" has indicated a preference for separation. That is a solution. If the CCL/ESCC decides itself to separate, I'm guessing other Catholic schools around the state would not follow it. I'm not aware of discontent with Rockford Boylan or Springfield, Sacred Heart-Griffin. Geography and the relative scarcity of private high schools outside the Chicago metropolitan area kind of dictates that the private schools in those areas need to maintain their relationships with the public schools.

Perhaps a less extreme form of separation might be agreeable to all parties. Rather than separating entirely and playing games only amongst themselves, perhaps the CCL/ESCC schools would agree to merely being treated separately, or perhaps the better word would be "differently".

The remainder of the state would operate under the currently existing rules, but the multiplier and success factor would no longer apply to the CCL/ESCC. Those schools would still qualify for the playoffs under the existing rules, but once they qualify they would be treated differently. The five largest CCL/ESCC schools would play in the 8A class, the next five largest in the 7A class, and the next five in 6A and so on and so forth. Let's see how that would have been implemented this year.

Fourteen CCL/ESCC teams qualified for the playoffs this year. They were assigned to the different classes in the following manner:
8A = 2 (Loyola, St. Ignatius)
7A = 3 (Mt. Carmel, Brother Rice, St. Rita)
6A = 0
5A = 5 (Carmel, St. Francis, Joliet Catholic, Providence, Nazareth)
4A = 3 (IC Catholic, St. Laurence, St. Viator)
3A = 1 (Montini)

Under my proposal they would have been assigned as follows:
8A = 5 (Loyola, St. Ignatius, Brother Rice, Mt. Carmel, Carmel)
7A = 5 (St. Rita, St. Laurence, St. Viator, Providence, Nazareth)
6A = 4 (St. Francis, Joliet Catholic, Montini, IC Catholic)

Loyola, St. Ignatius and St. Rita would be playing in the same class they played in this year. The other teams would be moving up in classification. However, they would be playing a similarly difficult playoff schedule if they separated themselves and conducted playoffs among themselves. One way to administer a playoff among themselves would be to split the 24 teams into groups of eight according to size. Then establish three playoffs based on team strength, but also stipulating no team will be placed higher than one group upwards from where their size would have placed them. This stipulation is to protect small schools like IC Catholic so they would never find themselves playing the largest schools in the playoffs. It might look like this:

Group A
1) Loyola (9-0)
8) Joliet Catholic (6-3)

4) Carmel (8-1)
5) Brother Rice (5-4)

3) St. Francis (7-2)
6) St. Ignatius (6-3)

2) Mt. Carmel (8-1)
7) St. Rita (5-4)


Group B
1) IC Catholic (7-2)
8) Benet (4-5)

4) Montini (6-3)
5) Fenwick (4-5)

3) Marist (4-5)
6) St. Laurence (6-3)

2) Nazareth (4-5)
7) Providence (5-4)


Group C
1) St. Viator
8) Leo

4) DePaul
5) Notre Dame

3) De La Salle
6) St. Patrick's

2) Marian Catholic
7) Marmion

Both total separation and the revised IHSA playoff participation outlined above would likely reduce blowouts and public-school discontent; but, I'm guessing the Catholic high school players would like to play some teams other than those they competed against during the regular season.
A first round matchup with MC? So, in other words, nothings changes for Cascia!!! LOL!
 
I think it’s easier to land a man on Saturn than figure out these proposals. Who comes up with this stuff?? Geez!
 
And if the following happens , the problem goes away. Though temporarily. All these are very possible and I’ll list in order as most probable

Princeton/Byron over Montini
Rochester over IC
LWE or Edwardsville over LA
Batavia over MC

Sorry about 5A, Morris but all divisions of football are QB driven and SF and Naz have two oh the best

Anyway all my other picks are possible and a couple may happen
 
Ramblinman, please be careful. You sound like you are whining. Isn't that what you always complain the weak public schools do?

In any case, I am working on a more comprehensive proposal that deals with the weaker schools and the weaker conferences. The work is time consuming and will likely take several months to complete. I am confident you will not like the result because I can't think of anything I've written yet that you have liked. Nevertheless, I am trying to address your concerns that there are too many blowouts. I am doing so in a way that addresses both the circumstances on the playing field but also the practical concerns of who comprises the IHSA membership and what might be acceptable to them. It is a difficult task but one that I think may be good exercise for my mind. That is probably the true value of the effort, for I hold no illusions that anyone takes my thoughts seriously or are influenced by them.
Can you refresh the power points system for this years playoff class?
 
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Can you refresh the power points system for this years playoff class?
No, and that is the problem. The system you suggested be duplicated in Illinois a few years ago is an extremely complicated and integrated system. Every game that is played by every team impacts multiple teams throughout the state in a manner that can only be administered through the use of very sophisticated software. That is why, if I am remembering correctly, the governing association had to contract out the administration of the system to the individual who invented the power points system. One of the objectives I think is most important for the IHSA to abide by is to make any process they use be both transparent and relatively easy to understand and administer. The power point system does not meet this objective and, as such, I have to believe would be open to increasing criticism over the course of time. It would not be easy to explain to a school why they missed out on the playoffs, or received a poor seed, other than to say that is what the system dictated.

I do think the result produced by the power point system could be useful. I am trying to come up with a system that may produce fairly similar results but is much easier to understand and administer. The reason it will take me such a long time is that I'm only devoting about a half hour a week to the task and I'm trying to avoid the mistake some proposers have been making, namely, proposing a new concept (whether it be districts or multipliers) without showing the specific results the proposal would produce. The system I may be proposing is already completed and written down, but I am going team by team through the IHSA membership to see what the impact will be on qualifying, classification, and seeding. Since I am under no illusion that the system I may propose will influence anybody in any way, I may not finish the task. I am doing it for my own amusement, so if it no longer is entertaining I may just stop. If I do finish it, I suspect that will be several months from now.

The objectives are:
1) Provide a reasonable opportunity for all IHSA members to participate in the playoffs (though by no means all in the same year).
2) Create a process that is transparent and relatively simple to understand and administer.
3) Of least importance, promote some semblance of competitive balance within each class.

The last objective will hopefully reduce the number of blowouts by at least a little bit, which "ramblinman" may like.
 
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Out of curiosity

Does the IHSA put this much though into their basketball pairings?

I think that the obvious solution would be for the class structure to open and go from 1-8A to 1-15A
- that would allow the schools that complain a chance at the participation trophy that they desire the most
 
No, and that is the problem. The system you suggested be duplicated in Illinois a few years ago is an extremely complicated and integrated system. Every game that is played by every team impacts multiple teams throughout the state in a manner that can only be administered through the use of very sophisticated software. That is why, if I am remembering correctly, the governing association had to contract out the administration of the system to the individual who invented the power points system. One of the objectives I think is most important for the IHSA to abide by is to make any process they use be both transparent and relatively easy to understand and administer. The power point system does not meet this objective and, as such, I have to believe would be open to increasing criticism over the course of time. It would not be easy to explain to a school why they missed out on the playoffs, or received a poor seed, other than to say that is what the system dictated.

I do think the result produced by the power point system could be useful. I am trying to come up with a system that may produce fairly similar results but is much easier to understand and administer. The reason it will take me such a long time is that I'm only devoting about a half hour a week to the task and I'm trying to avoid the mistake some proposers have been making, namely, proposing a new concept (whether it be districts or multipliers) without showing the specific results the proposal would produce. The system I may be proposing is already completed and written down, but I am going team by team through the IHSA membership to see what the impact will be on qualifying, classification, and seeding. Since I am under no illusion that the system I may propose will influence anybody in any way, I may not finish the task. I am doing it for my own amusement, so if it no longer is entertaining I may just stop. If I do finish it, I suspect that will be several months from now.

The objectives are:
1) Provide a reasonable opportunity for all IHSA members to participate in the playoffs (though by no means all in the same year).
2) Create a process that is transparent and relatively simple to understand and administer.
3) Of least importance, promote some semblance of competitive balance within each class.

The last objective will hopefully reduce the number of blowouts by at least a little bit, which "ramblinman" may like.
Nah man it’s just excel and arithmetic, it’s *inspired* by other state systems, but a stoned original.
 
Nah man it’s just excel and arithmetic, it’s *inspired* by other state systems, but a stoned original.
There are more high school basketball teams on the court than their are football teams on the field.

Why is there only 4 classes in basketball???
 
There are more high school basketball teams on the court than their are football teams on the field.

Why is there only 4 classes in basketball???
Basketball doesn't have the same limits as to game time as football. Varsity basketball player can play a full game Friday and then play a full game Saturday. A varsity football player cannot. As a result, basketball has a much larger bracket (Regional playoffs, Regional Champ, Sectional playoffs, Sectional Champ, Super Sectional, Semi-Final, Championship). If basketball didn't have as many rounds, they'd have more classes I'm guessing.
 
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So which is it, manipulate the system to exclude those that don't fit your mold of competitiveness or all members should be treated the same? You don't get to have it both ways.
I'm not saying we have to exclude anyone. I admit that I want fewer qualifiers, but I would SETTLE for the same number of qualifiers if we were able to achieve more competitively balanced classes in a way that was objective and applicable to all qualifiers. Keep your 8 classes and 256 teams if you can't bare to cut any of them out (even though the numbers of schools playing 11-man football is on the decline and more and more 4-5 schools will be qualifying in the coming years). Just classify the schools differently to achieve less of a gulf between the most and least competitive schools in each class. Period.

All IHSA members SHOULD be treated the same. Apply whatever magic formula works best to ALL qualifiers, public and private, so that the classes are more competitive.
 
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I am working on a more comprehensive proposal that deals with the weaker schools and the weaker conferences.

Glad to hear it. Can't wait to see it.

The work is time consuming and will likely take several months to complete.

God bless you for doing that. Hope the juice is worth the squeeze.

I am confident you will not like the result because I can't think of anything I've written yet that you have liked.

Fair point. Perhaps it's because most of what you write finds a way to stick it to the private schools for winning more than their "fair share" of titles.

Tell me, where are the private schools' "fair share" of bowling titles? Do you know that, since 1972-73, ZERO private schools have been either champs or runners up in girls bowling? Same for the boys, but their records only go back to 2002-03. OMG, right? Where's the equity? Where's the uproar? Where's the FAIR SHARE? Using your logic, there must be some sort of inherent advantage in how public schools compile their student bodies that causes them to win all the bowling titles and the private schools win none. Despite that travesty of justice, you don't see private schools whining for a level bowling alley. They just suck it up and try to get better.

Where is it written that private schools and public schools must win roughly the same percentage of titles as the percentage of their IHSA membership? Don't bother looking. I'll tell you where. You can find it right next to the rule that states that urban schools and suburban schools and rural schools must win roughly the same percentage of titles as the percentage of their membership. :rolleyes:

Nevertheless, I am trying to address your concerns that there are too many blowouts.

Wonderful. Thank you. Seriously. I'm the first to admit that I'm more of a concept guy and not a math guy or a data analysis guy.

I am doing so in a way that addresses both the circumstances on the playing field but also the practical concerns of who comprises the IHSA membership and what might be acceptable to them.

Uh oh. Anything other than an objective way that treats all schools the same means I'm probably not going to like it.

It is a difficult task but one that I think may be good exercise for my mind.

Hope you don't burn more neurons than you grow. While you're at it, see what you can do about the public/private bowling inequity, will ya?

That is probably the true value of the effort, for I hold no illusions that anyone takes my thoughts seriously or are influenced by them.

So true.
 
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"Why must it be addressed?" It ought to be addressed because in the minds of many people associated with the public schools the disproportionate number of championships won by the Catholic schools is the result of the different enrollment rules under which the two different sets of schools operate.

It's wildly overestimated in this echo chamber how many people actually care about this "issue" that needs to be "addressed" (the issue being "some schools are consistently good at football and win a lot).

Half the teams in this state don't make the playoffs. They don't care.

Most of the teams that do make the playoffs are eliminated by public schools. They don't care.

Some public schools win state. They don't care.

Some public schools with programs that have some pride and confidence get eliminated by a private school, take their lumps, and come back next year, a la Richmond-Burton or CPS Phillips this year. They don't care.

Private schools don't care.

Most of the kids don't care. They come off the field bummed they got beat, and their natural inclination is not to start blaming "the system". The usually have respect for whoever beat them.

BUT!!! Every year, a couple teams like Antioch (the flavor of the week for this example) waltz into the playoffs, beat the brakes off of some under resourced CPS team, start feeling a little frisky in round 2, and then lose to a private school like Carmel (who by the way has a single state final appearance in school history - far from dynastic) and start crying. Then their message board prognosticator and statistician allies get riled up on here for the month of November.

The state championship, for 99% of kids in the state, is a symbolic carrot to play for, and that's ok. It's no one's job to make it easier to win or to "spread the love". If you want to win it you need to beat the Mount Carmels, Le-Wins, Loyolas, Maine Souths, Rochesters, St. Ritas, Maroas, ICCPs, and LWEs of the world.
 
It's wildly overestimated in this echo chamber how many people actually care about this "issue" that needs to be "addressed" (the issue being "some schools are consistently good at football and win a lot).

Half the teams in this state don't make the playoffs. They don't care.

Most of the teams that do make the playoffs are eliminated by public schools. They don't care.

Some public schools win state. They don't care.

Some public schools with programs that have some pride and confidence get eliminated by a private school, take their lumps, and come back next year, a la Richmond-Burton or CPS Phillips this year. They don't care.

Private schools don't care.

Most of the kids don't care. They come off the field bummed they got beat, and their natural inclination is not to start blaming "the system". The usually have respect for whoever beat them.

BUT!!! Every year, a couple teams like Antioch (the flavor of the week for this example) waltz into the playoffs, beat the brakes off of some under resourced CPS team, start feeling a little frisky in round 2, and then lose to a private school like Carmel (who by the way has a single state final appearance in school history - far from dynastic) and start crying. Then their message board prognosticator and statistician allies get riled up on here for the month of November.

The state championship, for 99% of kids in the state, is a symbolic carrot to play for, and that's ok. It's no one's job to make it easier to win or to "spread the love". If you want to win it you need to beat the Mount Carmels, Le-Wins, Loyolas, Maine Souths, Rochesters, St. Ritas, Maroas, ICCPs, and LWEs of the world.
THIS. ^
 
it should be noted that teams can vary tremendously from year to year. That 's why I recommended doubling the enrollments of co-ed private schools and multiplying by 4 the enrollments of all boy private schools without regard for past records. A good example of the merit of ignoring past records is Carmel : in 2022 Carmel lost in the second round to Sycamore 43-0 ; this year they beat Antioch in the second round 50-7.
 
it should be noted that teams can vary tremendously from year to year. That 's why I recommended doubling the enrollments of co-ed private schools and multiplying by 4 the enrollments of all boy private schools without regard for past records. A good example of the merit of ignoring past records is Carmel : in 2022 Carmel lost in the second round to Sycamore 43-0 ; this year they beat Antioch in the second round 50-7.
How does that make any sense? You want an extreme, indiscriminate enrollment boost to account for normal fluctuations in a team's quality?

Also, are all of these multiplier proposals going to apply to all sports? I will remind everyone that the enrollment multiplier gets AUTOMATICALLY WAIVED unless you meet certain success criteria in the 2 year period. Most non-boundary schools are NOT playing with a multiplier in the majority of sports. So now the Niles Notre Dame golf team is getting it's real enrollment 4x'ed?? Why?? All the great golfers flocking to ND from Morton Grove, Des Plaines, and Skokie???

https://www.ihsa.org/Schools/Enroll...l=/data/school/2023-25 cycle/waivers-fall.htm
 
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It's wildly overestimated in this echo chamber how many people actually care about this "issue" that needs to be "addressed" (the issue being "some schools are consistently good at football and win a lot).

Half the teams in this state don't make the playoffs. They don't care.

Most of the teams that do make the playoffs are eliminated by public schools. They don't care.

Some public schools win state. They don't care.

Some public schools with programs that have some pride and confidence get eliminated by a private school, take their lumps, and come back next year, a la Richmond-Burton or CPS Phillips this year. They don't care.

Private schools don't care.

Most of the kids don't care. They come off the field bummed they got beat, and their natural inclination is not to start blaming "the system". The usually have respect for whoever beat them.

BUT!!! Every year, a couple teams like Antioch (the flavor of the week for this example) waltz into the playoffs, beat the brakes off of some under resourced CPS team, start feeling a little frisky in round 2, and then lose to a private school like Carmel (who by the way has a single state final appearance in school history - far from dynastic) and start crying. Then their message board prognosticator and statistician allies get riled up on here for the month of November.

The state championship, for 99% of kids in the state, is a symbolic carrot to play for, and that's ok. It's no one's job to make it easier to win or to "spread the love". If you want to win it you need to beat the Mount Carmels, Le-Wins, Loyolas, Maine Souths, Rochesters, St. Ritas, Maroas, ICCPs, and LWEs of the world.
Accurate.
 
How does that make any sense? You want an extreme, indiscriminate enrollment boost to account for normal fluctuations in a team's quality?

Also, are all of these multiplier proposals going to apply to all sports? I will remind everyone that the enrollment multiplier gets AUTOMATICALLY WAIVED unless you meet certain success criteria in the 2 year period. Most non-boundary schools are NOT playing with a multiplier in the majority of sports. So now the Niles Notre Dame golf team is getting it's real enrollment 4x'ed?? Why?? All the great golfers flocking to ND from Morton Grove, Des Plaines, and Skokie???

https://www.ihsa.org/Schools/Enrollments-Classifications/Two-Year-Cycle-Enrollments-and-Classifications?url=/data/school/2023-25 cycle/waivers-fall.htm
My recommendation applies only to football.
 
It's wildly overestimated in this echo chamber how many people actually care about this "issue" that needs to be "addressed" (the issue being "some schools are consistently good at football and win a lot).

Half the teams in this state don't make the playoffs. They don't care.

Most of the teams that do make the playoffs are eliminated by public schools. They don't care.

Some public schools win state. They don't care.

Some public schools with programs that have some pride and confidence get eliminated by a private school, take their lumps, and come back next year, a la Richmond-Burton or CPS Phillips this year. They don't care.

Private schools don't care.

Most of the kids don't care. They come off the field bummed they got beat, and their natural inclination is not to start blaming "the system". The usually have respect for whoever beat them.

BUT!!! Every year, a couple teams like Antioch (the flavor of the week for this example) waltz into the playoffs, beat the brakes off of some under resourced CPS team, start feeling a little frisky in round 2, and then lose to a private school like Carmel (who by the way has a single state final appearance in school history - far from dynastic) and start crying. Then their message board prognosticator and statistician allies get riled up on here for the month of November.

The state championship, for 99% of kids in the state, is a symbolic carrot to play for, and that's ok. It's no one's job to make it easier to win or to "spread the love". If you want to win it you need to beat the Mount Carmels, Le-Wins, Loyolas, Maine Souths, Rochesters, St. Ritas, Maroas, ICCPs, and LWEs of the world.
Sir, I'm going to need to ask you to leave. Logical thinking like this has no place here!
 
A good example of the merit of ignoring past records is Carmel : in 2022 Carmel lost in the second round to Sycamore 43-0 ; this year they beat Antioch in the second round 50-7.
OMG! A good example indeed! The nerve of Carmel winning their first second round playoff game in 13 years! How DARE they? Multiply them!

:rolleyes:
 
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OMG! A good example indeed! The nerve of Carmel winning their first second round playoff game in 13 years! How DARE they? Multiply them!

:rolleyes:
I am curious why we allow the multiplier waiver though. I wasn't following HS closely when this multiplier was instituted and I have never been able to understand why the waiver got instituted or expanded over time. You can be snarky all you want, but does a school's enrollment landscape change because they had a couple down years? That 4/5/6A set of classes has often been filled with privates that aren't multiplied because they got beat up in higher divisions and get to come down.

In Carmel's example, McKie has done an amazing job recruiting Lake County (and even WI). Anyone who had a kid in the youth system over the last 4 years would tell you, he's been able to attract alot of the best players in the county. There's nothing negative about that statement. He's building a winning program. But we don't allow any other schools to drop down classes because have been off for a few years. Maybe Taft should have gotten to go down to 6 or 7A because they've been rebuilding and finally cracked the playoffs?

I guess the point most public schools would say is bothersome is not about who wins or loses games or championships. That's the result, not the issue, and their message probably comes across as whining because it's enflamed after a loss. The issue is that the ability to pull from a population of 700K and compete vs. schools that pull from populations of 15k should be the defining parameter about WHERE you compete in the playoffs. There's other factors of course, but it really comes down to that. I don't see alot of schools with 500-600 boys being able to field a OL that averages 290lbs when they're restricted to one zip code. Even if they can match up in some positions, a 70-80lb difference on the line will usually decide a game.
 
Short of separation, your choices that do not discriminate against non-boundaried schools are limited.
I'm not totally sure I buy the discrimination part of this. I think a uniform formula that acknowledges the fact that a non-boundary school has a different talent pool to pull from is fairly level headed. Someone came up with a formula that said they have a 65% advantage, so that's something. Is the claim that even THAT is discriminating vs. the school with no boundary? Because claiming that is a much different conversation.

You can argue Antioch all you want, but I think their frustration starts with being eliminated by schools that were multiplied waived 3 times recently (ND x2 and Carmel).
 
I am curious why we allow the multiplier waiver though. I wasn't following HS closely when this multiplier was instituted and I have never been able to understand why the waiver got instituted or expanded over time. You can be snarky all you want, but does a school's enrollment landscape change because they had a couple down years? That 4/5/6A set of classes has often been filled with privates that aren't multiplied because they got beat up in higher divisions and get to come down.

In Carmel's example, McKie has done an amazing job recruiting Lake County (and even WI). Anyone who had a kid in the youth system over the last 4 years would tell you, he's been able to attract alot of the best players in the county. There's nothing negative about that statement. He's building a winning program. But we don't allow any other schools to drop down classes because have been off for a few years. Maybe Taft should have gotten to go down to 6 or 7A because they've been rebuilding and finally cracked the playoffs?

I guess the point most public schools would say is bothersome is not about who wins or loses games or championships. That's the result, not the issue, and their message probably comes across as whining because it's enflamed after a loss. The issue is that the ability to pull from a population of 700K and compete vs. schools that pull from populations of 15k should be the defining parameter about WHERE you compete in the playoffs. There's other factors of course, but it really comes down to that. I don't see alot of schools with 500-600 boys being able to field a OL that averages 290lbs when they're restricted to one zip code. Even if they can match up in some positions, a 70-80lb difference on the line will usually decide a game.
You mentioned Taft from the CPL, so I feel compelled to make a contribution. I think Taft has over 4000 students, though to say they are on the same level support-wise as similar sized Stevenson would be crazy. In addition, like most CPL neighborhood schools, great athletes have options. Selective enrollment schools within CPL, Catholic league schools, surrounding public schools, etc... However, even with these types of barriers, I don't think you'll find too many CPL teams crying about how they can't compete with their enrollment based classification.
 
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I am curious why we allow the multiplier waiver though.

Because it makes zero sense to multiply private schools that have next to zero chance to make any waves in the playoffs. Why multiply Chicago Christian (with a 6-13 playoff record that has made the quarterfinals just once in their history), when the real culprits, in the minds of the public school apologists that can't stand to see private schools win more than their "fair share" of titles, are small and mid-sized private schools like ICCP, Montini, JCA, SHG, MC, etc.?

I wasn't following HS closely when this multiplier was instituted and I have never been able to understand why the waiver got instituted or expanded over time.

It got instituted, and originally did penalize all private schools with no waiver, because public schools wanted to use a hammer to solve a perceived problem that needed tweezers to fix.

You can be snarky all you want

Phew! That's a relief!

but does a school's enrollment landscape change because they had a couple down years?

If by enrollment landscape, you mean its 30-mile radius, no. That one is fixed. But, nobody has ever proven that the ability to recruit translates to an advantage on the playoff playing field. I think Chicago Christian folks would love to argue that point with you should you think that you are the first person to prove that it does.

That 4/5/6A set of classes has often been filled with privates that aren't multiplied because they got beat up in higher divisions and get to come down.

"Down" to their regular enrollment class. If they got beat up in the higher divisions, then perhaps you can agree that they didn't belong in those higher classes.

In Carmel's example, McKie has done an amazing job recruiting Lake County (and even WI). Anyone who had a kid in the youth system over the last 4 years would tell you, he's been able to attract alot of the best players in the county. There's nothing negative about that statement. He's building a winning program. But we don't allow any other schools to drop down classes because have been off for a few years.

The multiplier is put in effect when a PRIVATE school (not a public one) experiences a few years of extraordinary playoff success. Why should Chicago Christian be multiplied? The answer is they shouldn't! It's unnecessarily punitive. Why should Carmel remain multiplied when, up untll last year, they had five consecutive losing seasons? The answer is they shouldn't.

Why are people freaking out about Carmel now that they have won their third playoff game in two years? If they keep winning in the playoffs, then those people will get their wish and Carmel will be multiplied once again. If they lose this weekend or next, then I'd say that their classification in 5A is spot on.

Maybe Taft should have gotten to go down to 6 or 7A because they've been rebuilding and finally cracked the playoffs?

Yes, maybe Taft SHOULD go down to those classes, but that's a different thread.


The issue is that the ability to pull from a population of 700K and compete vs. schools that pull from populations of 15k should be the defining parameter about WHERE you compete in the playoffs.

I'd agree with you if you could PROVE that the ABILITY to pull from such a population is an advantage on the playing field for all private schools. You cannot.

There's other factors of course, but it really comes down to that. I don't see alot of schools with 500-600 boys being able to field a OL that averages 290lbs when they're restricted to one zip code.

Assuming you are referring to Carmel, how did that work out for them last year when they got bitch slapped in round two by a public school and the previous five years when they failed to produce a winning record?
 
I'm not totally sure I buy the discrimination part of this. I think a uniform formula that acknowledges the fact that a non-boundary school has a different talent pool to pull from is fairly level headed.

Not really. It's actually discriminatory because you cannot prove that the ability to draw from a 30 mile radius is an advantage on the playing field.

You can argue Antioch all you want, but I think their frustration starts with being eliminated by schools that were multiplied waived 3 times recently (ND x2 and Carmel).
Were they equally frustrated when they lost playoff games to Lake Forest in 2021 and Cary Grove in 2019? If not, why not? Why is it less frustrating to lose to public schools? Why is it okay for a school like Rochester to win 8 titles in 10 years but when a private school approaches that level of sustained extraordinary success it's due solely to their ability to draw students from a 30 mile radius?
 
A recent post on a different thread indicated that, according to CalPreps, the CCL/ESCC has the top three conferences in the state, and four of the top five. That analysis used average CalPreps power ratings. If one wants to reduce the number of blowouts, which is a stated goal of "ramblinman", that disparity between the CCL/ESCC and the remainder of the state needs to be addressed. If one wants to reduce the discontent being expressed by public schools, the disparity between the CCL/ESCC and the remainder of the state needs to be addressed. In short, the reality that the CCL/ESCC is playing a much higher caliber of football than the remainder of the state needs to be addressed.

"Ramblinman" has indicated a preference for separation. That is a solution. If the CCL/ESCC decides itself to separate, I'm guessing other Catholic schools around the state would not follow it. I'm not aware of discontent with Rockford Boylan or Springfield, Sacred Heart-Griffin. Geography and the relative scarcity of private high schools outside the Chicago metropolitan area kind of dictates that the private schools in those areas need to maintain their relationships with the public schools.

Perhaps a less extreme form of separation might be agreeable to all parties. Rather than separating entirely and playing games only amongst themselves, perhaps the CCL/ESCC schools would agree to merely being treated separately, or perhaps the better word would be "differently".

The remainder of the state would operate under the currently existing rules, but the multiplier and success factor would no longer apply to the CCL/ESCC. Those schools would still qualify for the playoffs under the existing rules, but once they qualify they would be treated differently. The five largest CCL/ESCC schools would play in the 8A class, the next five largest in the 7A class, and the next five in 6A and so on and so forth. Let's see how that would have been implemented this year.

Fourteen CCL/ESCC teams qualified for the playoffs this year. They were assigned to the different classes in the following manner:
8A = 2 (Loyola, St. Ignatius)
7A = 3 (Mt. Carmel, Brother Rice, St. Rita)
6A = 0
5A = 5 (Carmel, St. Francis, Joliet Catholic, Providence, Nazareth)
4A = 3 (IC Catholic, St. Laurence, St. Viator)
3A = 1 (Montini)

Under my proposal they would have been assigned as follows:
8A = 5 (Loyola, St. Ignatius, Brother Rice, Mt. Carmel, Carmel)
7A = 5 (St. Rita, St. Laurence, St. Viator, Providence, Nazareth)
6A = 4 (St. Francis, Joliet Catholic, Montini, IC Catholic)

Loyola, St. Ignatius and St. Rita would be playing in the same class they played in this year. The other teams would be moving up in classification. However, they would be playing a similarly difficult playoff schedule if they separated themselves and conducted playoffs among themselves. One way to administer a playoff among themselves would be to split the 24 teams into groups of eight according to size. Then establish three playoffs based on team strength, but also stipulating no team will be placed higher than one group upwards from where their size would have placed them. This stipulation is to protect small schools like IC Catholic so they would never find themselves playing the largest schools in the playoffs. It might look like this:

Group A
1) Loyola (9-0)
8) Joliet Catholic (6-3)

4) Carmel (8-1)
5) Brother Rice (5-4)

3) St. Francis (7-2)
6) St. Ignatius (6-3)

2) Mt. Carmel (8-1)
7) St. Rita (5-4)


Group B
1) IC Catholic (7-2)
8) Benet (4-5)

4) Montini (6-3)
5) Fenwick (4-5)

3) Marist (4-5)
6) St. Laurence (6-3)

2) Nazareth (4-5)
7) Providence (5-4)


Group C
1) St. Viator
8) Leo

4) DePaul
5) Notre Dame

3) De La Salle
6) St. Patrick's

2) Marian Catholic
7) Marmion

Both total separation and the revised IHSA playoff participation outlined above would likely reduce blowouts and public-school discontent; but, I'm guessing the Catholic high school players would like to play some teams other than those they competed against during the regular seas

Because it makes zero sense to multiply private schools that have next to zero chance to make any waves in the playoffs. Why multiply Chicago Christian (with a 6-13 playoff record that has made the quarterfinals just once in their history), when the real culprits, in the minds of the public school apologists that can't stand to see private schools win more than their "fair share" of titles, are small and mid-sized private schools like ICCP, Montini, JCA, SHG, MC, etc.?



It got instituted, and originally did penalize all private schools with no waiver, because public schools wanted to use a hammer to solve a perceived problem that needed tweezers to fix.



Phew! That's a relief!



If by enrollment landscape, you mean its 30-mile radius, no. That one is fixed. But, nobody has ever proven that the ability to recruit translates to an advantage on the playoff playing field. I think Chicago Christian folks would love to argue that point with you should you think that you are the first person to prove that it does.



"Down" to their regular enrollment class. If they got beat up in the higher divisions, then perhaps you can agree that they didn't belong in those higher classes.



The multiplier is put in effect when a PRIVATE school (not a public one) experiences a few years of extraordinary playoff success. Why should Chicago Christian be multiplied? The answer is they shouldn't! It's unnecessarily punitive. Why should Carmel remain multiplied when, up untll last year, they had five consecutive losing seasons? The answer is they shouldn't.

Why are people freaking out about Carmel now that they have won their third playoff game in two years? If they keep winning in the playoffs, then those people will get their wish and Carmel will be multiplied once again. If they lose this weekend or next, then I'd say that their classification in 5A is spot on.



Yes, maybe Taft SHOULD go down to those classes, but that's a different thread.




I'd agree with you if you could PROVE that the ABILITY to pull from such a population is an advantage on the playing field for all private schools. You cannot.



Assuming you are referring to Carmel, how did that work out for them last year when they got bitch slapped in round two by a public school and the previous five years when they failed to produce a winning record?
The 30 mile radius system schools really have 2 levels within that. Ramblinman is correct. Within the 49 teams.....really the ESCC and CCL teams are the ones that a fixed muliplier should pertain to. Your really small private schools aren't really part of this issue in football. Can't speak about the other sports.
 
Yeah, because St. Pat's, St, Viator, DLS, Marmion, Marian Catholic, Leo, DePaul Prep, and ACC are so multiplier-worthy. :rolleyes:
Ramblin. They all operate under the same parameters correct? They need to recruit better and hit up the donors like the others. If we separated and then included all 49 privates into a playoff....would that be better?
 
I am curious why we allow the multiplier waiver though. I wasn't following HS closely when this multiplier was instituted and I have never been able to understand why the waiver got instituted or expanded over time. You can be snarky all you want, but does a school's enrollment landscape change because they had a couple down years? That 4/5/6A set of classes has often been filled with privates that aren't multiplied because they got beat up in higher divisions and get to come down.

In Carmel's example, McKie has done an amazing job recruiting Lake County (and even WI). Anyone who had a kid in the youth system over the last 4 years would tell you, he's been able to attract alot of the best players in the county. There's nothing negative about that statement. He's building a winning program. But we don't allow any other schools to drop down classes because have been off for a few years. Maybe Taft should have gotten to go down to 6 or 7A because they've been rebuilding and finally cracked the playoffs?

I guess the point most public schools would say is bothersome is not about who wins or loses games or championships. That's the result, not the issue, and their message probably comes across as whining because it's enflamed after a loss. The issue is that the ability to pull from a population of 700K and compete vs. schools that pull from populations of 15k should be the defining parameter about WHERE you compete in the playoffs. There's other factors of course, but it really comes down to that. I don't see alot of schools with 500-600 boys being able to field a OL that averages 290lbs when they're restricted to one zip code. Even if they can match up in some positions, a 70-80lb difference on the line will usually decide a game.
I think your missing the point re: waivers. The term "waiver" is misleading in fairness because it's automatic, but no one is going "down' below their actual enrollment - being 'waived" is the "base case". The reason for this is that it's clear there is a broad spectrum of unboundaried schools for a multitude of reasons. Illinois School for the Deaf, Northside College Prep, and Mount Carmel are all "unboundaried". The multiplier takes effect in a particular sport if the school has had a certain level of success over a two-year period. not saying I agree, but the idea is that if an unboundaried school has this level of success, the success is attributable to it's unboundaried nature and thus needs to be multiplied. This basketball season, none of those three schools used in my example are multiplied, and I think it's hard to argue they should be.

Your comments about area and population ignore the fact that one is completely free, and the other costs $15k per kid per year. If *xyz suburban public school* literally drove a bulldozer over the football field, replaced all their helmets with Schutt Air-XPs from the 90s, and hired Oprah Winfrey as the head coach, their overall enrollment would probably change by less than 10%. If the fearsome and vaunted Corsairs of Carmel Catholic did that, the school would close faster than Addison Driscoll.
 
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Ramblin. They all operate under the same parameters correct? They need to recruit better and hit up the donors like the others. If we separated and then included all 49 privates into a playoff....would that be better?
So what if they operate under the same parameters? So do Maine East and Maine South. When you can prove that the ability to draw students from within a 30 mile radius is directly related to sustained extraordinary success, then perhaps I would be more open to your proposals.

Why is it okay for a public school like Rochester to win 8 titles in the last 10 years, but when Carmel wins a single second round playoff game, their first in many years, the public school apologists come out of the woodwork and start foaming at the mouth?
 
Your comments about area and population ignore the fact that one is completely free, and the other costs $15k per kid per year. If *xyz suburban public school* literally drove a bulldozer over the football field, replaced all their helmets with Schutt Air-XPs from the 90s, and hired Oprah Winfrey as the head coach, their overall enrollment would probably change by less than 10%. If the fearsome and vaunted Corsairs of Carmel Catholic did that, the school would close faster than Addison Driscoll.
I guess that's the REAL difference in how public vs private viewpoints really is. If the base case is NOT multiplied, it assumes both entities are on equal footing as to their ability to procure talent. I personally think that is NOT the majority opinion in Illinois, and I know it's not how ANY public school would see the situation.

And, yes, one is free one has a cost. But is it REALLY 15K? And, the ability to pull from 700K and 15k is massive. You can have all your funny bulldozer/oprah comments if you want, but to say they can't find significantly more talent in many schools even with the tuition factor is a bit naive. With needs based scholarships openly advertised, it's pretty easy to see why many in Lake County would send their better athletes there rather than play for some of the less fortunate schools in the area. Having a current student, I know that thought ran through pretty much every top notch player in the area. Some make the jump, some don't. But why play for Round Lake, Waukegan, North Chicago, Zion (or many others in the area) if you can get enough tuition coverage to attend Carmel. Everyone knows your chances of playing college ball coming out of one of those schools is severely hampered.

But if you honestly believe that there is no difference in the ability to get talent with no boundary and tuition assistance, then you probably won't agree with a single point above. And that's why you will forever see the topic circle back. Outside of the non-boundary schools, nobody will agree with that.
 
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