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Proposal to replace multiplier

rfb321

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Oct 28, 2015
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Per Daily Herald, this was proposed in the IHSA meeting

Removing the 1.65 multiplier for non-boundary schools and creating enrollments based on the average enrollment of surrounding public high schools.

Okay, Montini and IC move up to 8A, B Mac goes 6 or 7A, Caravan drops to what, 5 or 6

That’ll solve problems
 
Can we propose a requirement that these proposals are fully fleshed out with projected classes/districts and impact summary? A proposal proposal!

Would weed out many of the lazy submitters, half-hearted proposals, and time wasted spent honestly considering or debating these.
 
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Per Daily Herald, this was proposed in the IHSA meeting

Removing the 1.65 multiplier for non-boundary schools and creating enrollments based on the average enrollment of surrounding public high schools.

Okay, Montini and IC move up to 8A, B Mac goes 6 or 7A, Caravan drops to what, 5 or 6

That’ll solve problems
It's not all enrollments of all surrounding public schools, but rather only the public schools that are larger. This proposal won't move any private schools down.
 
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What would the effect be on little schools like Altoff Catholic and Decatur St Teresa be? Crusader probably knows more on local enrollment down there than I do
Wouldn't be good for althoff as the two belleville schools are 7a and 8a.
 
Just submit a proposal to remove whoever it is that runs the Antioch Twitter to be allowed to have any involvement with the program.
If Edgy ran that site the sounds of flushing would be heard for miles on that tweet & person/people involved
 
and Is that the goal?
Im not sure what you mean by that, but i cant imagine anyone genuinely advocating for a school with 300 kids competing in the same playoff class as a school with 2500
 
In some areas, the 11 kids on the field from the private school will likely regularly defeat the 11 kids on the field from many of the larger schools, so then what becomes the solution?
I am presuming that the District Plan will happen and this is intended be a component or amendment to the District Plan.
 
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It's not all enrollments of all surrounding public schools, but rather only the public schools that are larger. This proposal won't move any private schools down.
So basically force all the metro area private schools up to 7or 8 A. Hello NIPL.
 
Per Daily Herald, this was proposed in the IHSA meeting

Removing the 1.65 multiplier for non-boundary schools and creating enrollments based on the average enrollment of surrounding public high schools.

Okay, Montini and IC move up to 8A, B Mac goes 6 or 7A, Caravan drops to what, 5 or 6

That’ll solve problems
What is considered a surrounding public school?
 
Wouldn't be good for althoff as the two belleville schools are 7a and 8a.
St. T would be less affected as both Decatur schools are 5A, MTZ straddles the 4A/5A line, W-L I believe is 3A, M-F and everyone else in their radius is 2A or below. It will still mean a jump in classes for them, though.
 
What is considered a surrounding public school?
For Montini, I suspect it would be Glenbard East, Downers South. IC , probably York, Fenton, Proviso West. ACC and AC would be compared to the Auroras. Welcome to 8A
 
For Montini, I suspect it would be Glenbard East, Downers South. IC , probably York, Fenton, Proviso West. ACC and AC would be compared to the Auroras. Welcome to 8A
If we just say "surrounding" JCA would also be 8A. Its closest schools are Joliet West, Joliet Central, Minooka, Lockport, Romeoville, Bolingbrook, Plainfield South,. I would think there would have to be a defined boundary, similar to the current 30 mile radius. Either way, it's a terrible idea.
 
If we just say "surrounding" JCA would also be 8A. Its closest schools are Joliet West, Joliet Central, Minooka, Lockport, Romeoville, Bolingbrook, Plainfield South,. I would think there would have to be a defined boundary, similar to the current 30 mile radius. Either way, it's a terrible idea.
Yea any near-Chicago metro area is going to bump up against so many 8A schools and if any smaller schools they may border against don't count, it's a runaway train to 7A-8A for sure.
 
Just submit a proposal to remove whoever it is that runs the Antioch Twitter to be allowed to have any involvement with the program.
I know right! It's almost like the data is biased for private schools! I bet those numbers aren't even accurate. They have to be made up.
 
I know right! It's almost like the data is biased for private schools! I bet those numbers aren't even accurate. They have to be made up.
Well I did have a hard time recreating the numbers last year when this came up (not necessarily in a material sense), but that's besides the point. The real issue is that loser mentality of said user.
 
Well I did have a hard time recreating the numbers last year when this came up (not necessarily in a material sense), but that's besides the point. The real issue is that loser mentality of said user.
So Antioch (again loser mentality), posts data that you don't like, that clearly identifies and issue within the sport of football, that has been brought up for years....even before our time on this board.......and you attack the coach, AD or school. Got it. Why not offer a solution, like many others are discussing?
 
This was proposed by a 1A-3A conference.

Let’s say the proposal goes through. Bloomington CC, Quincy ND, and Sterling Newman are still 3A or below. If one of those schools beats you and wins state. Then what…..?
 
So Antioch (again loser mentality), posts data that you don't like, that clearly identifies and issue within the sport of football, that has been brought up for years....even before our time on this board.......and you attack the coach, AD or school. Got it. Why not offer a solution, like many others are discussing?
You can go back to old thread from last year which got recently bumped if you want. I don't complain about "not liking" the data, and offered up plenty of thoughts on the matter, some which are found in that thread. Some offered up in other threads over time. I think theres a lot of great additional context I added to those threads.

The Antioch Twitter user still has a loser mentality. I say this as a long time alum/supporter of a school that also for many years ran up paper tiger 8-9 win records and also got exposed by all manner of schools once playoffs started. So even though it was like 25 years ago, I know pretty well what it's like to watch/support that. They're playing a stupid victim game though. And the data also shows just as well how many of these not-haves like Antioch struggle against all teams ocne the competition level steps up.
 
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So Antioch (again loser mentality), posts data that you don't like, that clearly identifies and issue within the sport of football, that has been brought up for years....even before our time on this board.......and you attack the coach, AD or school. Got it. Why not offer a solution, like many others are discussing?
Initial evaluation of data from last year, and there's some subsequent convo too

Post in thread 'Public 106 Private 62' https://edgytim.forums.rivals.com/threads/public-106-private-62.24664/post-315699

(starting all the way back on page 1, there's a lot of good convo in that thread IMO, even though the formal analysis happened Ed much later)
 
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You can go back to old thread from last year which got recently bumped if you want. I don't complain about "not liking" the data, and offered up plenty of thoughts on the matter, some which are found in that thread. Some offered up in other threads over time. I think theres a lot of great additional context I added to those threads.

The Antioch Twitter user still has a loser mentality. I say this as a long time alum/supporter of a school that also for many years ran up paper tiger 8-9 win records and also got exposed by all manner of schools once playoffs started. So even though it was like 25 years ago, I know pretty well what it's like to watch/support that. They're playing a stupid victim game though. And the data also shows just as well how many of these not-haves like Antioch struggle against all teams ocne the competition level steps up.
Not denying that privates are a level up......I think that's the point. I do believe the privates schools overall do get better talent and I'm not seeing the victim game as the data is not representative of one school or one specific class. Who at this point doesn't see that? Most of the threads on this website discuss how talented MC, JCA, Naz is. The IHSA tried to fix it with mulitpliers (didn't work).....so sure.....if you feel it's a loser mentality...you have the right to your opinion, but throwing stones isn't going to solve the issue. Rather I'd l like to see solutions? If not separation......how would you fix the system?
 
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So Antioch (again loser mentality), posts data that you don't like, that clearly identifies and issue within the sport of football, that has been brought up for years....even before our time on this board.......and you attack the coach, AD or school. Got it. Why not offer a solution, like many others are discussing?
All Antioch did was whine and post data. No solution.

Got it.
 
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Not denying that privates are a level up......I think that's the point. I do believe the privates schools overall do get better talent and I'm not seeing the victim game as the data is not representative of one school or one specific class. Who at this point doesn't see that? Most of the threads on this website discuss how talented MC, JCA, Naz is. The IHSA tried to fix it with mulitpliers (didn't work).....so sure.....if you feel it's a loser mentality...you have the right to your opinion, but throwing stones isn't going to solve the issue. Rather I'd l like to see solutions? If not separation......how would you fix the system?
Well my biggest thing is that "the privates" are not to be treated as a monolith. I think the data clearly shows that past a certain threshold it's a probably bit easier for a well run private school program to stay top tier than a well run public school, but that from a competetive landscape standpoint the well run public and private school programs are much more alike than the vast majority of the "bottom" 80% of programs.

I don't believe that a separation solves that competetive landscape issue. But mostly I think separation will lead to a less exciting football landscape. Maybe I'm being too much of a fan in that regards and giving lower level programs more opportunities at extended play is the primary goal (to which id say the primary format, regardless of public/private should be a district/regional based playoff format and not a state series). But a state series is designed to reward the highest levels of success not promote broad access to additional opportunity for all. Just the natural design of a state championship series. To that end I've even kicked around that the solution is a (two or three) tiered opt-in system for a less competetive district style regional football division and a more competetive opt in state series system. Not gonna happen, obviously, but would probably ease competetive balance concerns.

Below that top threshold though, the effective attitude of many is that any private school success must be happening at the wrong level. The dumb success factor (and even the multiplier waiver) rely on a begging the question type of logic where a private school team cannot succeed without the presumption that said class was the wrong one for them. Just awful logically speaking (and applies retroactively to a totally different set of kids who probably had zero to do with that success).
 
If not separation......how would you fix the system?
Look, all this argument is the direct result of class and bracket expansion. Way back when, the playoffs started with 5 classes and 16 team brackets. The idea that a 4-5 school could make the playoffs back then would have gotten you nothing other than derision. Today, you've got a 5-4 public school that actually used social media to lower its fans expectations BEFORE a first round playoff game against a private school.

Short of separation, your choices that do not discriminate against non-boundaried schools are limited.

Either reduce the number of qualifiers, or try another classifcation system. Keep trying different systems until the playoffs classes have less of a competitive gulf between top tier and bottom tier qualifiers. Understand that if you are going to have 32 team brackets, though, that gulf is going to be wider than if you had 16 team brackets.

But, separation works for me! I'm sick of the IHSA and its whining membership that won't be happy until it enshrines mediocrity across the board.
 
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Well my biggest thing is that "the privates" are not to be treated as a monolith. I think the data clearly shows that past a certain threshold it's a probably bit easier for a well run private school program to stay top tier than a well run public school, but that from a competetive landscape standpoint the well run public and private school programs are much more alike than the vast majority of the "bottom" 80% of programs.

I don't believe that a separation solves that competetive landscape issue. But mostly I think separation will lead to a less exciting football landscape. Maybe I'm being too much of a fan in that regards and giving lower level programs more opportunities at extended play is the primary goal (to which id say the primary format, regardless of public/private should be a district/regional based playoff format and not a state series). But a state series is designed to reward the highest levels of success not promote broad access to additional opportunity for all. Just the natural design of a state championship series. To that end I've even kicked around that the solution is a (two or three) tiered opt-in system for a less competetive district style regional football division and a more competetive opt in state series system. Not gonna happen, obviously, but would probably ease competetive balance concerns.

Below that top threshold though, the effective attitude of many is that any private school success must be happening at the wrong level. The dumb success factor (and even the multiplier waiver) rely on a begging the question type of logic where a private school team cannot succeed without the presumption that said class was the wrong one for them. Just awful logically speaking (and applies retroactively to a totally different set of kids who probably had zero to do with that success).
Ahhhh. Now a discussion I like. Let me preface, I have not, researched enough. Any other states handle this issue in a way that most would agree with? Should we be looking at another state that handles this correctly? I don't know if anyone here has brought up a model in another state that seems to be working better/or having less issues.

So in your last paragraph....would like 7A and 8A essentially have all of the larger privates and larger public powerhouses?
 
Ahhhh. Now a discussion I like. Let me preface, I have not, researched enough. Any other states handle this issue in a way that most would agree with? Should we be looking at another state that handles this correctly? I don't know if anyone here has brought up a model in another state that seems to be working better/or having less issues.

So in your last paragraph....would like 7A and 8A essentially have all of the larger privates and larger public powerhouses?
In regards to other states, my research last year did lead me to both Iowa and Ohio. Iowa implemented some (I believe) straight forward economic factors to additionally classify beyond size.

In Ohio, they have a very complex system that does appear to have had some success but requires a ton of administrative self reporting from both public and private institutions as it looks (among the things) which feeder Middle schools players from the actual sport make up the team roster. Because of its large administrative burden, I think such a system is only fair if individual schools opt into that system - and then leave a enrollment and/or district system as the default for those private and public schools who do not wish to be burdened with the additional administrative process of a "competitive landscape" based system.
 
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A recent post on a different thread indicated that, according to CalPreps, the CCL/ESCC has the top three conferences in the state, and four of the top five. That analysis used average CalPreps power ratings. If one wants to reduce the number of blowouts, which is a stated goal of "ramblinman", that disparity between the CCL/ESCC and the remainder of the state needs to be addressed. If one wants to reduce the discontent being expressed by public schools, the disparity between the CCL/ESCC and the remainder of the state needs to be addressed. In short, the reality that the CCL/ESCC is playing a much higher caliber of football than the remainder of the state needs to be addressed.

"Ramblinman" has indicated a preference for separation. That is a solution. If the CCL/ESCC decides itself to separate, I'm guessing other Catholic schools around the state would not follow it. I'm not aware of discontent with Rockford Boylan or Springfield, Sacred Heart-Griffin. Geography and the relative scarcity of private high schools outside the Chicago metropolitan area kind of dictates that the private schools in those areas need to maintain their relationships with the public schools.

Perhaps a less extreme form of separation might be agreeable to all parties. Rather than separating entirely and playing games only amongst themselves, perhaps the CCL/ESCC schools would agree to merely being treated separately, or perhaps the better word would be "differently".

The remainder of the state would operate under the currently existing rules, but the multiplier and success factor would no longer apply to the CCL/ESCC. Those schools would still qualify for the playoffs under the existing rules, but once they qualify they would be treated differently. The five largest CCL/ESCC schools would play in the 8A class, the next five largest in the 7A class, and the next five in 6A and so on and so forth. Let's see how that would have been implemented this year.

Fourteen CCL/ESCC teams qualified for the playoffs this year. They were assigned to the different classes in the following manner:
8A = 2 (Loyola, St. Ignatius)
7A = 3 (Mt. Carmel, Brother Rice, St. Rita)
6A = 0
5A = 5 (Carmel, St. Francis, Joliet Catholic, Providence, Nazareth)
4A = 3 (IC Catholic, St. Laurence, St. Viator)
3A = 1 (Montini)

Under my proposal they would have been assigned as follows:
8A = 5 (Loyola, St. Ignatius, Brother Rice, Mt. Carmel, Carmel)
7A = 5 (St. Rita, St. Laurence, St. Viator, Providence, Nazareth)
6A = 4 (St. Francis, Joliet Catholic, Montini, IC Catholic)

Loyola, St. Ignatius and St. Rita would be playing in the same class they played in this year. The other teams would be moving up in classification. However, they would be playing a similarly difficult playoff schedule if they separated themselves and conducted playoffs among themselves. One way to administer a playoff among themselves would be to split the 24 teams into groups of eight according to size. Then establish three playoffs based on team strength, but also stipulating no team will be placed higher than one group upwards from where their size would have placed them. This stipulation is to protect small schools like IC Catholic so they would never find themselves playing the largest schools in the playoffs. It might look like this:

Group A
1) Loyola (9-0)
8) Joliet Catholic (6-3)

4) Carmel (8-1)
5) Brother Rice (5-4)

3) St. Francis (7-2)
6) St. Ignatius (6-3)

2) Mt. Carmel (8-1)
7) St. Rita (5-4)


Group B
1) IC Catholic (7-2)
8) Benet (4-5)

4) Montini (6-3)
5) Fenwick (4-5)

3) Marist (4-5)
6) St. Laurence (6-3)

2) Nazareth (4-5)
7) Providence (5-4)


Group C
1) St. Viator
8) Leo

4) DePaul
5) Notre Dame

3) De La Salle
6) St. Patrick's

2) Marian Catholic
7) Marmion

Both total separation and the revised IHSA playoff participation outlined above would likely reduce blowouts and public-school discontent; but, I'm guessing the Catholic high school players would like to play some teams other than those they competed against during the regular season.
 
A recent post on a different thread indicated that, according to CalPreps, the CCL/ESCC has the top three conferences in the state, and four of the top five. That analysis used average CalPreps power ratings. If one wants to reduce the number of blowouts, which is a stated goal of "ramblinman", that disparity between the CCL/ESCC and the remainder of the state needs to be addressed. If one wants to reduce the discontent being expressed by public schools, the disparity between the CCL/ESCC and the remainder of the state needs to be addressed. In short, the reality that the CCL/ESCC is playing a much higher caliber of football than the remainder of the state needs to be addressed.

"Ramblinman" has indicated a preference for separation. That is a solution. If the CCL/ESCC decides itself to separate, I'm guessing other Catholic schools around the state would not follow it. I'm not aware of discontent with Rockford Boylan or Springfield, Sacred Heart-Griffin. Geography and the relative scarcity of private high schools outside the Chicago metropolitan area kind of dictates that the private schools in those areas need to maintain their relationships with the public schools.

Perhaps a less extreme form of separation might be agreeable to all parties. Rather than separating entirely and playing games only amongst themselves, perhaps the CCL/ESCC schools would agree to merely being treated separately, or perhaps the better word would be "differently".

The remainder of the state would operate under the currently existing rules, but the multiplier and success factor would no longer apply to the CCL/ESCC. Those schools would still qualify for the playoffs under the existing rules, but once they qualify they would be treated differently. The five largest CCL/ESCC schools would play in the 8A class, the next five largest in the 7A class, and the next five in 6A and so on and so forth. Let's see how that would have been implemented this year.

Fourteen CCL/ESCC teams qualified for the playoffs this year. They were assigned to the different classes in the following manner:
8A = 2 (Loyola, St. Ignatius)
7A = 3 (Mt. Carmel, Brother Rice, St. Rita)
6A = 0
5A = 5 (Carmel, St. Francis, Joliet Catholic, Providence, Nazareth)
4A = 3 (IC Catholic, St. Laurence, St. Viator)
3A = 1 (Montini)

Under my proposal they would have been assigned as follows:
8A = 5 (Loyola, St. Ignatius, Brother Rice, Mt. Carmel, Carmel)
7A = 5 (St. Rita, St. Laurence, St. Viator, Providence, Nazareth)
6A = 4 (St. Francis, Joliet Catholic, Montini, IC Catholic)

Loyola, St. Ignatius and St. Rita would be playing in the same class they played in this year. The other teams would be moving up in classification. However, they would be playing a similarly difficult playoff schedule if they separated themselves and conducted playoffs among themselves. One way to administer a playoff among themselves would be to split the 24 teams into groups of eight according to size. Then establish three playoffs based on team strength, but also stipulating no team will be placed higher than one group upwards from where their size would have placed them. This stipulation is to protect small schools like IC Catholic so they would never find themselves playing the largest schools in the playoffs. It might look like this:

Group A
1) Loyola (9-0)
8) Joliet Catholic (6-3)

4) Carmel (8-1)
5) Brother Rice (5-4)

3) St. Francis (7-2)
6) St. Ignatius (6-3)

2) Mt. Carmel (8-1)
7) St. Rita (5-4)


Group B
1) IC Catholic (7-2)
8) Benet (4-5)

4) Montini (6-3)
5) Fenwick (4-5)

3) Marist (4-5)
6) St. Laurence (6-3)

2) Nazareth (4-5)
7) Providence (5-4)


Group C
1) St. Viator
8) Leo

4) DePaul
5) Notre Dame

3) De La Salle
6) St. Patrick's

2) Marian Catholic
7) Marmion

Both total separation and the revised IHSA playoff participation outlined above would likely reduce blowouts and public-school discontent; but, I'm guessing the Catholic high school players would like to play some teams other than those they competed against during the regular season.
Alexander32
Nice job. You put a lot of thought into this. Although I would prefer privates and publics to not be separated I also see the side of others in certain classes. It is certainly a starting point. I floated out last year to use rankings to level the playing field. I would admit it also has flaws but it was a start to make people think. In your plan some of the public schools would also need to looked at especially the schools that dominate their current class. I guess I am saying that it’s not only the privates that are dominating their class we have some public schools doing the same thing. All we have to do is look at the past 15 years in each class and see how many state title /appearances private and public I am a public guy but I feel the arguments from both sides. Winning a state championship should be tough. It should never be easy or something is broken.
Good job keep it going. 👍
 
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A recent post on a different thread indicated that, according to CalPreps, the CCL/ESCC has the top three conferences in the state, and four of the top five. That analysis used average CalPreps power ratings. If one wants to reduce the number of blowouts, which is a stated goal of "ramblinman", that disparity between the CCL/ESCC and the remainder of the state needs to be addressed. If one wants to reduce the discontent being expressed by public schools, the disparity between the CCL/ESCC and the remainder of the state needs to be addressed. In short, the reality that the CCL/ESCC is playing a much higher caliber of football than the remainder of the state needs to be addressed..
Is a self selected association. Why must it be addressed?

If some top public schools from 5A-8A banded together to form an amagalation conference akin to the ESCC/CCL conference would their continued success suddenly be less palatable and need to be addressed? If teams self-selected out to a different conference (as was very recently the case with StF and IC, who played in the Suburban Metro) would their association no longer dictate special treatment?
 
A recent post on a different thread indicated that, according to CalPreps, the CCL/ESCC has the top three conferences in the state, and four of the top five. That analysis used average CalPreps power ratings. If one wants to reduce the number of blowouts, which is a stated goal of "ramblinman", that disparity between the CCL/ESCC and the remainder of the state needs to be addressed.
And what about the other disparities? Why not address the weak ass schools that are inappropriately classified instead of simply starting and stopping with one conference? Why single out one conference? Seems discriminatory to me.
If one wants to reduce the discontent being expressed by public schools, the disparity between the CCL/ESCC and the remainder of the state needs to be addressed.
Says who? Why not address the weak ass public schools instead?

In short, the reality that the CCL/ESCC is playing a much higher caliber of football than the remainder of the state needs to be addressed.
SAYS WHO??? Why do you assume that it's one conference that is at fault? Why don't you instead assume that some schools don't belong, competitively speaking, into the classifications they are in? Start there.
"Ramblinman" has indicated a preference for separation.
Only because I am sick and tired of the IHSA and public school apologists treating private schools as if they are villains and scoundrels that should be punished for their success.

Rather than separating entirely and playing games only amongst themselves, perhaps the CCL/ESCC schools would agree to merely being treated separately, or perhaps the better word would be "differently".
Hell no. We are member schools. All members should be treated the same. Find another system that doesn't discriminate.
 
And what about the other disparities? Why not address the weak ass schools that are inappropriately classified instead of simply starting and stopping with one conference? Why single out one conference? Seems discriminatory to me.

Says who? Why not address the weak ass public schools instead?


SAYS WHO??? Why do you assume that it's one conference that is at fault? Why don't you instead assume that some schools don't belong, competitively speaking, into the classifications they are in? Start there.

Only because I am sick and tired of the IHSA and public school apologists treating private schools as if they are villains and scoundrels that should be punished for their success.


Hell no. We are member schools. All members should be treated the same. Find another system that doesn't discriminate.
So which is it, manipulate the system to exclude those that don't fit your mold of competitiveness or all members should be treated the same? You don't get to have it both ways.
 
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Is a self selected association. Why must it be addressed?

If some top public schools from 5A-8A banded together to form an amagalation conference akin to the ESCC/CCL conference would their continued success suddenly be less palatable and need to be addressed? If teams self-selected out to a different conference (as was very recently the case with StF and IC, who played in the Suburban Metro) would their association no longer dictate special treatment?
The underlying circumstance/problem existed before the Chicago Catholic League merged with the East Suburban Catholic Conference, and then added St. Francis and IC Catholic. As Edgy Tim posted quite recently, this problem has been debated for well over a decade. However, the consolidation of the major Catholic powers into one conference has made it easier to identify the problem, measure the dimensions of the problem, and possibly solve the problem.

"Why must it be addressed?" It ought to be addressed because in the minds of many people associated with the public schools the disproportionate number of championships won by the Catholic schools is the result of the different enrollment rules under which the two different sets of schools operate. They may be right or they may be wrong, but the discontent is genuine and the public schools are the overwhelming majority of IHSA members. If it remains unaddressed, we will continue seeing strange and counterproductive proposals being submitted to the IHSA for a vote. This would include proposals such as districts and such as classifying private schools based on the enrollment of their surrounding public schools. Eventually the IHSA may vote the CCL/ESCC out of the IHSA. If you do not perceive that as a negative outcome, then perhaps the matter need not be addressed. As mentioned by "ramblinman", such an outcome would not be the end of the world. I don't disagree with his opinion, but, still, I would prefer a solution that keeps the CCL/ESCC in the same playoffs that the public schools participate in.

The proposal I suggested earlier is but one. There are other possible solutions that deal with the schools individually rather than the League as a whole. I don't as yet know which approach is preferable.

And, yes, the disparity in football playing ability between the different public schools is also an issue. It may turn out to be a matter more difficult to address than the current matter we are discussing. I will save those thoughts for another day.
 
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