Oh this is going to be good hearing about how the public and private should have separate playoffs
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0-32Unless it’s 32-0 you’ll hear about recruiting and zip codes and Wisconsin.
Oh this is going to be good hearing about how the public and private should have separate playoffs
I get that this is sarcasm, but privates have won 9 hoops titles in the last 10 years.Basketball should have 8 different classes
The privates are outgunned and need representation
They probably would point to that statistic, but they would be misguided for a few reasons.Considering there were 8x as many pubics as privates (227 v 29) when the playoffs started, I think the fact that the ratio is now 2.2 is one the publics would point to, no?
This is a completely pointless statistic. It's highly dependent on the randomness of who plays who, and totally ignores the fact that a large contingent of those private schools are concentrated in 4a and 5a.That, and the fact that only 11 of the 29 privates have lost to a public school.
I put minimal credence in the CCL record since many were against CPS schools. Byron could beat many of those as well. I do put credence in Morris beating SHG or Camp Point beating Althoff since those are actual matchups. The Northern bracket is full ofThrough the first three rounds the CCL/ESCC has a record of 26-1 against public schools. Perhaps Byron next week and Rochester in two weeks will even things up a bit.
it’s almost like an admission that one sport has a lot more participation and effort put into it by different groups of people. And another sport has the same. But they don’t want to talk about that. This whole public versus private is more of a focus on equity rather than equality.I get that this is sarcasm, but privates have won 9 hoops titles in the last 10 years.
Interesting to see the total lack of overlap between private football winners vs private hoops winners.
As well they should and eventually will be.Oh this is going to be good hearing about how the public and private should have separate playoffs
Separating public from private is about the purest example of mediocrity I could envision. It reeks of average.As well they should and eventually will be.
Genuine and somewhat unrelated question, is there a particular team you support? If so, who?As well they should and eventually will be.
Antioch. Probably.Genuine and somewhat unrelated question, is there a particular team you support? If so, who?
I could not agree more... As a life long public school athlete (except college) and coach, I would have hated it if we competed in a separate division in the name of having an easy path. AS LONG AS THOSE SCHOOLS OPERATE WITHIN THE RULES AND THERE IS ACCOUNTABILITY, dividing public and private will backfire for the public schools and AAU, Club and other governing bodies will even more so funnel kids to private schools. Dividing the 2 groups waters down public school competition. The only thing I would like to see change, however, is the private schools being able to recruit kids enrolled at a high school in their freshman and sophomore year... That to me is the only shady part in all of it.Separating public from private is about the purest example of mediocrity I could envision. It reeks of average.
I didn't bring up records or the fact that the CCL drops 5-4 teams in and could care less about a poorer record beating a better record. We all know that. My contention is that those schools don't belong in 4/5/6A. I don't condone a separate system, but I do support a system that recognizes the fact that a school with 1200 kids in it and that can pull from a wider range than a public school with the same enrollment. It has a significant advantage in the quality of kids they can field. I've heard the counterarguments, and I just flat out disagree. I went to a private school as a student and my kids played at a public school. I chose the private school over my public school which routinely went 9-0 and got housed in the 6A playoffs (that being the biggest back then). I knew it was alot easier to run through the 2A playoffs with a different school. Good football players are going to congregate together if they have the choice and means, and that's what happens at a large number of the chicagoland privates. Very few families will ever say, oh, let's pick up our home and move to X because they have a better football team. Not when they can stay in a home they've lived in for however many years and get to a competitive private school.As we are all aware, most of the private schools in the state are concentrated into a handful of conferences. ~half of those 29 teams came from the CCL/ESCL. We all know the effect this has: 5-4 teams that are much better than their record suggests, and "good" teams that are kept out of the playoffs because of the conference they are in. It leads to a smaller number of better teams.
This is a completely pointless statistic. It's highly dependent on the randomness of who plays who, and totally ignores the fact that a large contingent of those private schools are concentrated in 4a and 5a.
I posted about this elsewhere last week, but the number of people (in the real world, not on a message board) who would ACTUALLY want this is so small. It's literally a small subset of public schools who are generally mediocre in football, stumble into the playoffs, and happen to run into a private school and get embarrassed.I could not agree more... As a life long public school athlete (except college) and coach, I would have hated it if we competed in a separate division in the name of having an easy path. AS LONG AS THOSE SCHOOLS OPERATE WITHIN THE RULES AND THERE IS ACCOUNTABILITY, dividing public and private will backfire for the public schools and AAU, Club and other governing bodies will even more so funnel kids to private schools. Dividing the 2 groups waters down public school competition. The only thing I would like to see change, however, is the private schools being able to recruit kids enrolled at a high school in their freshman and sophomore year... That to me is the only shady part in all of it.
Huh?? How is that not recognized by the current system? It's exactly why they are treated as though they have 65% MORE students if they have just a modicum of success in the playoffs.I don't condone a separate system, but I do support a system that recognizes the fact that a school with 1200 kids in it and that can pull from a wider range than a public school with the same enrollment.
You're trying to cherry pick data, but even this is inaccurate. Assuming you are talking 2021 and 2022, in those divisions publics beat privates 8 times:Between 3-6A in the last 2 years, only 6 public teams have managed to beat a private out of 57 matchups. Hell, after this weekends games, we may see that the majority of private schools were eliminated by other private schools rather than public schools. I don't subscribe to separating, but rather recognizing the fact that alot of those privates are able to draw talent more in line with 7/8A.
I think you might underestimate how much the swell of that opinion might be building personally. Especially in the mid-sized classes. Bigger classes are schools that can run with anyone b/c they can find 20 plus kids to compete when they are picking form 1500+ boys. Smallest classes don't have too many privates that pull from a populace area that makes a difference. But in 4/5A alone this year 22 playoff caliber teams lost by an AVERAGE of 30 points even after factoring in the fact that 2 publics won games (with one of those 2 wins being one of the class' most recognizable teams vs. a private team that had to be multiplied and success-factored....then they got running clocked the next week).I posted about this elsewhere last week, but the number of people (in the real world, not on a message board) who would ACTUALLY want this is so small. It's literally a small subset of public schools who are generally mediocre in football, stumble into the playoffs, and happen to run into a private school and get embarrassed.
That is simply false. St Laurence beat CVS and Carmel beat Lindbloom in the first round. St Francis beat Morgan Park in the quarter-finals. So a total of 3 wins vs CPS schools.I put minimal credence in the CCL record since many were against CPS schools. Byron could beat many of those as well. I do put credence in Morris beating SHG or Camp Point beating Althoff since those are actual matchups. The Northern bracket is full of
My point is I still don't think the multiplier measures the difference based on the obvious difference in competitiveness in the middle classes. And I measured the current year and last year which makes it 6 (Morris and Harrisburg this year). Even if you used 2021, what's the overall head to head?......no idea how that doesn't lead one to see a disparity, but ok. I remember when I was privileged enough to be in the private school bubble, so I guess I get why you see it that way.Huh?? How is that not recognized by the current system? It's exactly why they are treated as though they have 65% MORE students if they have just a modicum of success in the playoffs.
The majority of private schools in the tournament this year are playing with said multiplier (and in some case an additional success factor) except for:
After this weekend there will be AT MOST 2 unmultiplied privates in the tournament, the majority of them dispatched by public opponents.
- Althoff (eliminated by a public school)
- Bloomington Central Catholic (eliminated by a public school)
- Newman Central Catholic (eliminated by a public school)
- Peoria ND (eliminated by a public school)
- Quincy ND (eliminated by public school)
- St. Viator (eliminated by private in R2)
- St. Bede (eliminated by private R1)
- St. Laurence (Alive, plays Wheaton Academy)
- Wheaton Academy (Alive, plays St. L)
- Montini (Alive)
You're trying to cherry pick data, but even this is inaccurate. Assuming you are talking 2021 and 2022, in those divisions publics beat privates 8 times:
I don't have time to check your denominator of 57 matchups, but this ignores nuances like the fact that ICCP was the only 3A private in 2022.
- Crete-Monee beat Iggy (2021)
- Sycamore beat St. Pats (2021)
- Genoa beat St. Francis (2021)
- Civic Memorial beat Quincy ND (2021)
- Prairie Ridge beat Iggy (2022)
- Sterling beat Viator (2022)
- Morgan Park beat Fenwick (2022)
- Macomb beat QND (2022)
The argument goes long before Antioch posting the football information. Parents from soccer were complaining a couple of years ago when is was private champions throughout. I understand this site is private school dominate, but objectively you can't deny it. You can go ahead and post the exceptions to the rule....but the private schools and public operate under different guidelines and to not see it, is kind of......well......Antioch. Probably.
Unlike you I actually never attended a private school, I'm public school through and though so no bubble here.My point is I still don't think the multiplier measures the difference based on the obvious difference in competitiveness in the middle classes. And I measured the current year and last year which makes it 6 (Morris and Harrisburg this year). Even if you used 2021, what's the overall head to head?......no idea how that doesn't lead one to see a disparity, but ok. I remember when I was privileged enough to be in the private school bubble, so I guess I get why you see it that way.
I'm not sure if you missed my earlier post, who are you a fan/alum/supporter of?The argument goes long before Antioch posting the football information. Parents from soccer were complaining a couple of years ago when is was private champions throughout. I understand this site is private school dominate, but objectively you can't deny it. You can go ahead and post the exceptions to the rule....but the private schools and public operate under different guidelines and to not see it, is kind of......well......
I think you might underestimate how much the swell of that opinion might be building personally. Especially in the mid-sized classes.
But let me tell you, all the farmer boys who play farmer ball down in 1A-3A is none too happy the privates are "infiltrating" their classes. IMO, it's the 1A-4A pub support, who deal with private schools the least up to this point in IHSA history, who are now the loudest. What's even more hysterical, and confusing, is that the programs these 1A-4A folks are up in arms about are some of the worst, or at best least concerning, of all private schools in the state. Marquette, QND, BMD, Alleman (RIP), St. T, Althoff, PND, St. Bede, Newman, SHG, BCC, Routt... (May have missed some) none of those programs are ripping off title after title. With the exception of Newman and SHG I don't think any of these "downstate" "small" private schools infiltrating the lower classes have ever ripped off a 10 year stretch of "dominance."And this is a direct result of class expansion!
When there were 5 classes, that means there were two large school classes, two small school classes, and one mid-sized class. Then we moved to 6 classes, which served to increase the mid sized classes by one. And then we went to 8 classes which has four mid-sized classes sandwiched between two large classes and two small ones.
It was the whining by the mid-sized schools that brought us class expansion. Be careful what you wish for would have been good advice in hindsight because class expansion played right into the private school enrollment wheelhouse. Ever since then, those mid-sized public schools are whining that the private schools are winning "their" classes too often, but you never hear them whining about the Rochester dynasty in 4a and 5A!
Cry me a river.
But let me tell you, all the farmer boys who play farmer ball down in 1A-3A is none too happy the privates are "infiltrating" their classes. IMO, it's the 1A-4A pub support, who deal with private schools the least up to this point in IHSA history, who are now the loudest. But you are correct, ramblinman, they don't say a word when a pub beats their butts for a decade. LeWin is well on their way in 1A...
Of the programs that you mentioned (that have actually made the playoffs), none has had too great of a go:But let me tell you, all the farmer boys who play farmer ball down in 1A-3A is none too happy the privates are "infiltrating" their classes. IMO, it's the 1A-4A pub support, who deal with private schools the least up to this point in IHSA history, who are now the loudest. What's even more hysterical, and confusing, is that the programs these 1A-4A folks are up in arms about are some of the worst, or at best least concerning, of all private schools in the state. Marquette, QND, BMD, Alleman (RIP), St. T, Althoff, PND, St. Bede, Newman, SHG, BCC, Routt... (May have missed some) none of those programs are ripping off title after title. With the exception of Newman and SHG I don't think any of these "downstate" "small" private schools infiltrating the lower classes have ever ripped off a 10 year stretch of "dominance."
But you are correct, ramblinman, they don't say a word when a pub beats their butts for a decade. LeWin is well on their way in 1A...
this is a high school football message board let's keep our privates out of it.Considering there were 8x as many pubics as privates (227 v 29) when the playoffs started, I think the fact that the ratio is now 2.2 is one the publics would point to, no? That, and the fact that only 11 of the 29 privates have lost to a public school.
Publics could just go to Pop Warner!As well they should and eventually will be.
It all depends on the year. We heard alot from our local private school as to how awesome they were....and they were great in 21 and 22. However, they benefited by NOT be multiplied due to their poor performance in 2019 which led to them dropping in 21 & 22.Could it be the privates having better year this year due to covid. This year's seniors were freshman in the fall of 2020. More than usually could have chosen Private education who were in school in person vs. public schools that were mostly remote. Just a thought
You know the privates win quite often in basketball don’t you?Basketball should have 8 different classes
The privates are outgunned and need representation
A return to six classes would be ideal.If you look at the state championships every year some years the publics do well and some years the privates do well. It swings back and forth.
Today's system is the best except all classes should have 1 to 32 seeding and there should only be 6 classes.
You know the privates win quite often in basketball don’t you?
SHG won recently, Benet finished second last year, DePaul prep won last year. St. Joseph, has won. St. Anthony. Providence St. Mel. Bloomington Central Catholic, Hales Franciscan.
Two of the four champions last year were private. Two of the four in 2022 were private.
Snark only works when it’s semi-accurate.
St joes and hales aren’t even open anymore