Oh this is going to be good hearing about how the public and private should have separate playoffs
Public Semifinalists- 22 Private- 10
- Thread starter cigaros
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Unless it’s 32-0 you’ll hear about recruiting and zip codes and Wisconsin.
Thanks but who cares.
Can you give me a breakdown for all the semifinalists on the type of offenses they run?
Through the first three rounds the CCL/ESCC has a record of 26-1 against public schools. Perhaps Byron next week and Rochester in two weeks will even things up a bit.
I get that this is sarcasm, but privates have won 9 hoops titles in the last 10 years.
Interesting to see the total lack of overlap between private football winners vs private hoops winners.
If you look at the state championships every year some years the publics do well and some years the privates do well. It swings back and forth.
Today's system is the best except all classes should have 1 to 32 seeding and there should only be 6 classes.
Today's system is the best except all classes should have 1 to 32 seeding and there should only be 6 classes.
They probably would point to that statistic, but they would be misguided for a few reasons.
As we are all aware, most of the private schools in the state are concentrated into a handful of conferences. ~half of those 29 teams came from the CCL/ESCL. We all know the effect this has: 5-4 teams that are much better than their record suggests, and "good" teams that are kept out of the playoffs because of the conference they are in. It leads to a smaller number of better teams.
If, for example, we had regions, there would likely be MORE private schools in the playoffs, with a slightly lower winning %.
This is a completely pointless statistic. It's highly dependent on the randomness of who plays who, and totally ignores the fact that a large contingent of those private schools are concentrated in 4a and 5a.
I made a whole post about this last week, but trying to draw insight from *metric of success*/*some population of schools* is a fools errand. There is too much noise and too many non-football factors in the denominator for that type of statistic to make any sense.
I put minimal credence in the CCL record since many were against CPS schools. Byron could beat many of those as well. I do put credence in Morris beating SHG or Camp Point beating Althoff since those are actual matchups. The Northern bracket is full of
it’s almost like an admission that one sport has a lot more participation and effort put into it by different groups of people. And another sport has the same. But they don’t want to talk about that. This whole public versus private is more of a focus on equity rather than equality.
As well they should and eventually will be.
Separating public from private is about the purest example of mediocrity I could envision. It reeks of average.
Genuine and somewhat unrelated question, is there a particular team you support? If so, who?
Could it be the privates having better year this year due to covid. This year's seniors were freshman in the fall of 2020. More than usually could have chosen Private education who were in school in person vs. public schools that were mostly remote. Just a thought
I could not agree more... As a life long public school athlete (except college) and coach, I would have hated it if we competed in a separate division in the name of having an easy path. AS LONG AS THOSE SCHOOLS OPERATE WITHIN THE RULES AND THERE IS ACCOUNTABILITY, dividing public and private will backfire for the public schools and AAU, Club and other governing bodies will even more so funnel kids to private schools. Dividing the 2 groups waters down public school competition. The only thing I would like to see change, however, is the private schools being able to recruit kids enrolled at a high school in their freshman and sophomore year... That to me is the only shady part in all of it.
I didn't bring up records or the fact that the CCL drops 5-4 teams in and could care less about a poorer record beating a better record. We all know that. My contention is that those schools don't belong in 4/5/6A. I don't condone a separate system, but I do support a system that recognizes the fact that a school with 1200 kids in it and that can pull from a wider range than a public school with the same enrollment. It has a significant advantage in the quality of kids they can field. I've heard the counterarguments, and I just flat out disagree. I went to a private school as a student and my kids played at a public school. I chose the private school over my public school which routinely went 9-0 and got housed in the 6A playoffs (that being the biggest back then). I knew it was alot easier to run through the 2A playoffs with a different school. Good football players are going to congregate together if they have the choice and means, and that's what happens at a large number of the chicagoland privates. Very few families will ever say, oh, let's pick up our home and move to X because they have a better football team. Not when they can stay in a home they've lived in for however many years and get to a competitive private school.
Between 3-6A in the last 2 years, only 6 public teams have managed to beat a private out of 57 matchups. Hell, after this weekends games, we may see that the majority of private schools were eliminated by other private schools rather than public schools. I don't subscribe to separating, but rather recognizing the fact that alot of those privates are able to draw talent more in line with 7/8A.
I posted about this elsewhere last week, but the number of people (in the real world, not on a message board) who would ACTUALLY want this is so small. It's literally a small subset of public schools who are generally mediocre in football, stumble into the playoffs, and happen to run into a private school and get embarrassed.
Huh?? How is that not recognized by the current system? It's exactly why they are treated as though they have 65% MORE students if they have just a modicum of success in the playoffs.
The majority of private schools in the tournament this year are playing with said multiplier (and in some case an additional success factor) except for:
- Althoff (eliminated by a public school)
- Bloomington Central Catholic (eliminated by a public school)
- Newman Central Catholic (eliminated by a public school)
- Peoria ND (eliminated by a public school)
- Quincy ND (eliminated by public school)
- St. Viator (eliminated by private in R2)
- St. Bede (eliminated by private R1)
- St. Laurence (Alive, plays Wheaton Academy)
- Wheaton Academy (Alive, plays St. L)
- Montini (Alive)
You're trying to cherry pick data, but even this is inaccurate. Assuming you are talking 2021 and 2022, in those divisions publics beat privates 8 times:
- Crete-Monee beat Iggy (2021)
- Sycamore beat St. Pats (2021)
- Genoa beat St. Francis (2021)
- Civic Memorial beat Quincy ND (2021)
- Prairie Ridge beat Iggy (2022)
- Sterling beat Viator (2022)
- Morgan Park beat Fenwick (2022)
- Macomb beat QND (2022)
I think you might underestimate how much the swell of that opinion might be building personally. Especially in the mid-sized classes. Bigger classes are schools that can run with anyone b/c they can find 20 plus kids to compete when they are picking form 1500+ boys. Smallest classes don't have too many privates that pull from a populace area that makes a difference. But in 4/5A alone this year 22 playoff caliber teams lost by an AVERAGE of 30 points even after factoring in the fact that 2 publics won games (with one of those 2 wins being one of the class' most recognizable teams vs. a private team that had to be multiplied and success-factored....then they got running clocked the next week).
In those 2 classes alone, there were 12 private schools. Two lost to public schools, FOUR lost to other private schools and the other six make up 75% of the semis. Again, it's more an argument about where they are classified not being in alignment, and I think most of you that follow this closely would say that any of those 4 semifinalist teams would run through most of 6A without much trouble (outside of maybe ESL). Depending on if 4A south public prevails, which is doubtful, the end results would be:
Private school losses:
2-3 by public schools
7 by private schools
I just don't see how anyone could say that's apples to apples in those classes.
That is simply false. St Laurence beat CVS and Carmel beat Lindbloom in the first round. St Francis beat Morgan Park in the quarter-finals. So a total of 3 wins vs CPS schools.
This discussion is a big waste of time every year.
Both public and privates have great years depending on the year in history you want to look.
Stop all the complaining and move on. Get over it.
Both public and privates have great years depending on the year in history you want to look.
Stop all the complaining and move on. Get over it.
My point is I still don't think the multiplier measures the difference based on the obvious difference in competitiveness in the middle classes. And I measured the current year and last year which makes it 6 (Morris and Harrisburg this year). Even if you used 2021, what's the overall head to head?......no idea how that doesn't lead one to see a disparity, but ok. I remember when I was privileged enough to be in the private school bubble, so I guess I get why you see it that way.
The argument goes long before Antioch posting the football information. Parents from soccer were complaining a couple of years ago when is was private champions throughout. I understand this site is private school dominate, but objectively you can't deny it. You can go ahead and post the exceptions to the rule....but the private schools and public operate under different guidelines and to not see it, is kind of......well......
Unlike you I actually never attended a private school, I'm public school through and though so no bubble here.
My thoughts on the "disparity" are outline in a thread I posted last week if your interested, but essentially you believe that private and public schools "should" beat each other at some fixed ratio, and I believe that's a silly goal that ignores a multitude of factors.
In the last ten years, private schools have won 0% of the state championships in your 3A-6A sample some years, and they have won 75% in other years. People need to accept that it's ok for a school to be "good", whether it's Rochester and their 7 titles or ICCP and their 2 titles.
I'm not sure if you missed my earlier post, who are you a fan/alum/supporter of?
And this is a direct result of class expansion!
When there were 5 classes, that means there were two large school classes, two small school classes, and one mid-sized class. Then we moved to 6 classes, which served to increase the mid sized classes by one. And then we went to 8 classes which has four mid-sized classes sandwiched between two large classes and two small ones.
It was the whining by the mid-sized schools that brought us class expansion. Be careful what you wish for would have been good advice in hindsight because class expansion played right into the private school enrollment wheelhouse. Ever since then, those mid-sized public schools are whining that the private schools are winning "their" classes too often, but you never hear them whining about the Rochester dynasty in 4a and 5A!
Cry me a river.
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But let me tell you, all the farmer boys who play farmer ball down in 1A-3A is none too happy the privates are "infiltrating" their classes. IMO, it's the 1A-4A pub support, who deal with private schools the least up to this point in IHSA history, who are now the loudest. What's even more hysterical, and confusing, is that the programs these 1A-4A folks are up in arms about are some of the worst, or at best least concerning, of all private schools in the state. Marquette, QND, BMD, Alleman (RIP), St. T, Althoff, PND, St. Bede, Newman, SHG, BCC, Routt... (May have missed some) none of those programs are ripping off title after title. With the exception of Newman and SHG I don't think any of these "downstate" "small" private schools infiltrating the lower classes have ever ripped off a 10 year stretch of "dominance."
But you are correct, ramblinman, they don't say a word when a pub beats their butts for a decade. LeWin is well on their way in 1A...
All I can remember is going to Geneseo for a state semi final and watching the farmer kids through our private school kids around like rag dolls.
Of the programs that you mentioned (that have actually made the playoffs), none has had too great of a go:
1A: 1 of 7 remain, 4 eliminate by publics and 2 by still-alive Hope
Rockford Lutheran: L to Le-Win R1
Marquette: L to Forreston R1
Newman Central: L to ROWVA R1
St. Bede: L to Hope R1
Hope: Alive
Aurora Christian: L to Hope R2
Althoff: L to Camp Point R3
2A: All three eliminated by publics
BCC: L to Maroa R3
QND: L to Nashville R2
BMD: L to Shelbyville R3
3A: Just one private in the class, still-alive Montini
Montini: Alive
SHG is up in 5 A with multiplier + success factor and was bounced by Morris.
4A is admittedly a different story, 6 privates in the class and 4 remaining in the semis. Hope and Montini will likely get multiplied for 2025 and join the fray.
this is a high school football message board let's keep our privates out of it.
Publics could just go to Pop Warner!
Or the NLC could merge with TCYFL so we don't have to hear from you every year when your conference representative inevitably gets slapped in the playoffs.
It all depends on the year. We heard alot from our local private school as to how awesome they were....and they were great in 21 and 22. However, they benefited by NOT be multiplied due to their poor performance in 2019 which led to them dropping in 21 & 22.
You know the privates win quite often in basketball don’t you?
SHG won recently, Benet finished second last year, DePaul prep won last year. St. Joseph, has won. St. Anthony. Providence St. Mel. Bloomington Central Catholic, Hales Franciscan.
Two of the four champions last year were private. Two of the four in 2022 were private.
Snark only works when it’s semi-accurate.
A return to six classes would be ideal.
