The fallout in Lake Zurich begins.................

[flyerforlife]

I am having a hard time with this. It's not hazing it's RAPE. As crusader said back in my day you would have gotten drop kicked in the throat to even think of some mess like this. I do not think you ban football just get rid of the bad apples, Keep in mind hazing was going on in cross country and wrestling. You would have to ban those two teams too. Although they were not ad bad, bUT hazing is hazing. This. Is just my opinion but I think these kids need to be taught a real stern lesson. Do not go easy on them. You may never know what they may think they can get away with later in life is some female say no. Just sick

 

[Wassup13]

'

I have a very hard time seeing this program fielding a team for the 2017 season.

Montini you better be scheduling that week 2 game vs Grand Rapids West Catholic!

Wassup

 

[corey90]

I am having a hard time with this. It's not hazing it's RAPE. As crusader said back in my day you would have gotten drop kicked in the throat to even think of some mess like this. I do not think you ban football just get rid of the bad apples, Keep in mind hazing was going on in cross country and wrestling. You would have to ban those two teams too. Although they were not ad bad, bUT hazing is hazing. This. Is just my opinion but I think these kids need to be taught a real stern lesson. Do not go easy on them. You may never know what they may think they can get away with later in life is some female say no. Just sick

It's at least 20 years of bad apples! How do you get rid that? Football isn't that important. It's a big problem that has a tradition! Sick tradition but it's been happening for a long time. You don't just get rid of the bad apples you ban the entire program.

 

[corey90]

Certainly, hazing like this does not lead to good things. If true, these allegations are disgusting, repulsive and very sad.

However, I stand by the position I took a month or so ago when this was the topic of an earlier thread. At that time, I said that there's a difference between clean and light-hearted team building exercises that make kids step out of their comfort zones and hazing that involves bullying and dangerous/abhorrent/deviant behavior. I still think there should be room for the former within high school football programs.

I am sure this started out early on with what you refer to as light-hearted. Look what it became. Why in this day and age would a coach or school allow any hazing is beyond me. Nothing good comes from it. Keep making excuses and will keep seeing this type of behavior. You act like this has never happened before. This crap happens more than your willing to admit.

 

[eagles2k3]

First off I want to say that I am not defending these actions at all but I've come across some Facebook posts made by many former LZ football players stating that this 100% never occurred while they played. Some of these are coming from notable players over the last 10 years. It's really hard to believe that this could've gone unnoticed by staff/parents. I keep hearing someone say "the worst kept secret in the NW suburbs" but I honestly never heard an inkling of this until this year, and I live about 10 minutes from the school and have coached against them for about 8 years. I also know several parents who have connections to the school and program, and never once was this even hinted at. Could the abuse be singled out to this year only? A group of individuals who took it to an extreme like this? Disgusting and horrible for those involved but I'm wondering if the reporting on this has gone off deep end to get clicks... if the allegations are true, regarding the school admin knowing, then they should be sued as they are mandated reporters... Either way if I'm a parent I'm staying as far away from this program as I can.

 

[MWittman]

I am sure this started out early on with what you refer to as light-hearted. Look what it became.

corey:

I tend to agree with ramblinman when he says there is or could be room in an athletic program for a rite, but I also understand neither the two of you are advocating it transform into the shape it eventually took.

What occurred here originated as a perfectly acceptable ritual years ago, but quickly morphed into a brutal torture ceremony. It mutated after one student with power crossed a sacrosanct line. When this occurred, it ceased being a mere ritual and turned into assault.

Although we will never know when this occurred, from the moment the hallowed line was traversed, the custom began to breed avengers who sought retribution against not the perpetrator, but against the next generation of football athletes.

I remain committed to seeing LZ's football program and any other LZ athletic program which conducted itself in similar fashion to be shut down.

 

[Dr. Mirakle]

I would never condone anything that is alleged in the lawsuit but you have to remember you have only heard one side of the story and the people speaking to the media currently have an incentive to make the events seem as horrific as possible. Everything they said could very well be true but ill with hold judgement until all the parties have their day.

I understand what you are saying and yes, they will have their day, or days in court. But you have to admit, these allegations are pretty gruesome and it's being brought to federal court. It doesn't look very good for the defendants. But, we should wait. You are right about that.

While I have the floor I'd like to apologize for my initial post on this subject. In that post I painted an entire group of people with a broad brush. I made it look like people who are a little better off financially than most other people think they can do whatever they want. I shouldn't have written that. I know a lot of people who are much better off than I am and nicer and more generous people you can't meet. I have no problem with people who are, in general, doing better than I am. I do, however, have a problem with those who misuse that good fortune. That was what I was trying to say but it sure as hell didn't come out that way.

Again, I apologize for that.

 

[Dr. Mirakle]

[QUOTE="MC63, post: 123149, member: 38"

Are you turning over a new leaf?[/QUOTE]No MC63, I am not turning over a new leaf. Sorry to disappoint you. If you really think I am going over to the dark side with you, you are out of your mind. But we already established the fact you are out of your mind, long ago.

 

[Dr. Mirakle]

You really do blow at life! You take a situation that involves sexual abuse and turn it political...SMH

Hope everyone involved receives justice and that this has not been going on as long as some people suggest.

Shocked

Brin, that's because it's what he does. He makes everything political.

 

[Dr. Mirakle]

It's not just boys. Some girl at Stevenson beat up another girl on the school bus. The beater had a partner who recorded the episode and posted it on Facebook. Obviously, not honors students.

How do you know this? Are you sure they weren't honors students? Some honors students never do things like this?

 

[Dr. Mirakle]

The suit alleges that it's more than just football, it's a full institutional problem.

Which brings me to a point. If anyone here thinks their school isn't involved with some kind of hazing somewhere I have a bridge to sell you.

Obviously, it isn't to the degree alleged at LZ and maybe not in some football programs. And I am not trying to minimize what happened at LZ either. But I would say that hazing, or bullying goes on at every school out there at one time or another. It doesn't have to be in a sports program to occur.

I am sure we can all agree on that.

 

[Dr. Mirakle]

Clown:

I am not implying you are thick as two short planks, but are you really suggesting there could be "another" side to this? Does your post signal the hair-raising details revealed in a handful of newspaper articles obscure a justification for the insertion of a broomstick into either the mouth or rectum of a teen-age boy (I theorize it is the rectum, BTW)?

If the newspapers contain the eerie allegation of how some members of the LZ football team harnessed a new and creative use for a broomstick on a tender-aged teammate, imagine what lie in a legal brief and what will be revealed when the court system administers justice.

I'm not the brightest guy in the forum, but I learned decades ago if it looks like s^it and it smells like s^it, it is probably s^it.

If you want to fall into s^it and convince yourself it's a patch of clover, by all means be my guest, but I'll make my judgments based on a broomstick.

I get what you're saying here MWittman. I have no idea how anyone could defend these allegations. Guess that's what good defense attorneys are for. But, let's wait till it all comes out in court. Should be very interesting and will definitely make national news, if it hasn't already.

 

[Dr. Mirakle]

It was directly opposite of his attitude toward the behavior of public figures. He's a fraud and so are you.

If you want to see an illustration of a fraud, go to the nearest mirror, take a good look and there is where you will find a fraud, a hypocrite, a liar and the most smug person on the board.

You still pissed about that beat down I gave you a few weeks ago? Hahaha.

Take some deep breaths...relax. You need to get a handle on those anger issues of yours. Of course, I outlined the 3 most recent reasons for your hostility and anger in striking out. We don't need to go there again.

You need to go take a nap and come back refreshed.

 

[Quags57]

I think that not playing LZ is easier said than done. What would you have Fremd do? Cancel the contract? Intentionally forfeit the game?

And why limit this to just Fremd?

Yes, I would cancel the contract. It is the opening game of the season.

Stevenson had its own hazing scandal about 15 years ago and every TV station did a live shot before the game. The game was at Stevenson.

You are Fremd, and hosting this game with LZ. Again, every TV station will be out there. But people will see FREMD and there will be many out there that will associate this scandal to Fremd and not to LZ.

Like I said, there will be lots of stink that won't wash off.

The damage to Fremd

I think that not playing LZ is easier said than done. What would you have Fremd do? Cancel the contract? Intentionally forfeit the game?

And why limit this to just Fremd?

 

[Quags57]

With NSD wrapped up, I'm curious how the college recruiters will respond to this once in school visits start back up in the spring?

Baylor might be the perfect fit for a few of these guys.

 

[Quags57]

First off I want to say that I am not defending these actions at all but I've come across some Facebook posts made by many former LZ football players stating that this 100% never occurred while they played. Some of these are coming from notable players over the last 10 years. It's really hard to believe that this could've gone unnoticed by staff/parents. I keep hearing someone say "the worst kept secret in the NW suburbs" but I honestly never heard an inkling of this until this year, and I live about 10 minutes from the school and have coached against them for about 8 years. I also know several parents who have connections to the school and program, and never once was this even hinted at. Could the abuse be singled out to this year only? A group of individuals who took it to an extreme like this? Disgusting and horrible for those involved but I'm wondering if the reporting on this has gone off deep end to get clicks... if the allegations are true, regarding the school admin knowing, then they should be sued as they are mandated reporters... Either way if I'm a parent I'm staying as far away from this program as I can.

I said on the radio that this "was the worst kept secret in the NW burbs." But that was in response to what was happening now and the fact that the electronic media had not covered it.

The Daily Herald and Tribune had done numerous stories on it prior to the lawsuit going public.

 

[pjjp]

This incident goes way beyond typical hazing, as others have pointed out. However, I'm not a fan of hazing in general. Never understood the concept of it. You want entry into our organization or be a part of our team? Then, allow us to torment and humiliate you. Sorry, not my cup of tea. Never allowed myself to be hazed, nor did I ever haze anyone. I would encourage kids to take a similar stance. Be an independent thinker. Don't follow the crowd, even if it's "tradition". Learn the value of non-conformity and say no to hazing. Again, I realize this situation goes well beyond "normal" hazing activities, but it did grow out of the hazing culture that exists in many high school and college environments.

 

[ramblinman]

I am sure this started out early on with what you refer to as light-hearted. Look what it became. Why in this day and age would a coach or school allow any hazing is beyond me. Nothing good comes from it. Keep making excuses and will keep seeing this type of behavior. You act like this has never happened before. This crap happens more than your willing to admit.

Chill out. I'm perfectly aware that inappropriate hazing has been happening for years, and it frequently never gets reported. I am also perfectly aware that a substantial majority of hazing activities start out as light hearted and innocent and remain that way because MOST people know not to cross the "sacrosanct line," as MWittman described it.

I am not advocating for any kind of dangerous/risky/perverse/criminal behavior. All I am saying is that there should be room for certain traditions and practices that make kids step out of their comfort zones. Period. Whether you want to call it hazing or whatever, I don't give a crap. If you have a problem with the above, then so be it.

BTW, LOTS of activities (not just hazing) start out as light hearted and innocent and then turn ugly because a minority take those activities to the extreme. If there is no room in your world for even the light hearted and innocent things, then be consistent and never do ANYTHING that could possibly turn ugly/dangerous either when taken to the extreme or even in the normal course of events.

Want to have a drink? No imbibing for you because you might turn into an alcoholic or hurt yourself as you stumble down the street after leaving the bar. Want to drop a few pounds? No dieting for you because you might become anorexic. Want to sign your kid up to play football? Sorry, he might break his neck, get a concussion or blow out a knee.

 

[ramblinman]

Yes, I would cancel the contract. It is the opening game of the season.

Stevenson had its own hazing scandal about 15 years ago and every TV station did a live shot before the game. The game was at Stevenson.

You are Fremd, and hosting this game with LZ. Again, every TV station will be out there. But people will see FREMD and there will be many out there that will associate this scandal to Fremd and not to LZ.

And what about the other schools on LZ's schedule? Why just Fremd? Because it's the first game of the season? Why should Fremd get to pass the buck on to the next LZ opponent?

 

[Quags57]

And what about the other schools on LZ's schedule? Why just Fremd? Because it's the first game of the season? Why should Fremd get to pass the buck on to the next LZ opponent?

The next game is Montini and it is at LZ. Up to Montini if they want to be part of that media circus. I wouldn't.

After that, it is all conference games. Not sure if the conference would allow a school to cancel a game with LZ.

 

[ramblinman]

The next game is Montini and it is at LZ. Up to Montini if they want to be part of that media circus. I wouldn't.

After that, it is all conference games. Not sure if the conference would allow a school to cancel a game with LZ.

Now we are getting somewhere in this conversation.

If Fremd and Montini were to cancel, and NO OTHER school would replace them on LZ's schedule, then LZ's season is effectively shot because they would only play seven games, assuming their conference foes all bite the bullet and play their fellow conference member...while holding their noses. BTW, it might be interesting to have home and home Fremd/Montini games in weeks one and two. Not ideal, but certainly interesting.

What I am getting at is that LZ should cancel its own season. Don't wait for the IHSA to do it or for the IHSA to ban the Bears from the playoffs only. LZ should do their fellow conference members a favor and cancel all their games so that their fellow conference members don't have to hold their noses while playing them and so that conference foes don't have to even consider breaking ranks with the conference and cancelling on their own. They should impose their own death penalty and use that action to start rebuilding their reputation and athletic program from the bottom up. But, and here is the key point, they should do it now. The longer they wait, the harder it will be on opponents to scramble to find replacement games.

It's the honorable thing.

 

[Normdog]

Now we are getting somewhere in this conversation.

If Fremd and Montini were to cancel, and NO OTHER school would replace them on LZ's schedule, then LZ's season is effectively shot because they would only play seven games, assuming their conference foes all bite the bullet and play their fellow conference member...while holding their noses. BTW, it might be interesting to have home and home Fremd/Montini games in weeks one and two. Not ideal, but certainly interesting.

What I am getting at is that LZ should cancel its own season. Don't wait for the IHSA to do it for the IHSA to ban the Bears from the playoffs only. LZ should do their fellow conference members a favor and cancel all their games so that their fellow conference members don't have to hold their noses while playing them and so that conference foes don't have to even consider breaking ranks with the conference and cancelling on their own. They should impose their own death penalty and use that action to start rebuilding their reputation and athletic program from the bottom up. But, and here is the key point, they should do it now. The longer they wait, the harder it will be on opponents to scramble to find replacement games.

It's the honorable thing.

Ramblin you are correct in all of your points. However, based upon their behavior at all levels, there is not a chance that LZ cancels the season on their own. There has been ZERO level of acknowledgement of a problem or accountability from all levels of administration right up to and including the school board. The IHSA is going to have to do it.

 

[Voodoo Tatum 21]

Now we are getting somewhere in this conversation.

If Fremd and Montini were to cancel, and NO OTHER school would replace them on LZ's schedule, then LZ's season is effectively shot because they would only play seven games, assuming their conference foes all bite the bullet and play their fellow conference member...while holding their noses. BTW, it might be interesting to have home and home Fremd/Montini games in weeks one and two. Not ideal, but certainly interesting.

What I am getting at is that LZ should cancel its own season. Don't wait for the IHSA to do it for the IHSA to ban the Bears from the playoffs only. LZ should do their fellow conference members a favor and cancel all their games so that their fellow conference members don't have to hold their noses while playing them and so that conference foes don't have to even consider breaking ranks with the conference and cancelling on their own. They should impose their own death penalty and use that action to start rebuilding their reputation and athletic program from the bottom up. But, and here is the key point, they should do it now. The longer they wait, the harder it will be on opponents to scramble to find replacement games.

It's the honorable thing.

The way the administration has responded in the aftermath of last falls crimes would lead me to believe they will not cancel their season on their own.

It would then fall to the school board I would guess?

Then the IHSA?

No matter who does it (LZ administrators, LZ school board, or IHSA) I would bet a large sum that LZ will not be playing football this fall.

It is just a matter of time and to Quags and Ramblins point - it would be better to do it early so the other teams on LZ schedule can make other arrangements including conference foes lining up a non con game mid season

 

[ClownBaby]

If you cancel the 2017 season the season like many people are advocating aren't you basically punishing the 2016 sophomore team who more then likely had kids abused by upper classmen who will no longer be in the school next year? This isn't Penn State where kids can transfer out to avoid punishment theses kids live in the community and the vast majority will be going LZ next year with a football program or not.

 

[MC63]

[QUOTE="MC63, post: 123149, member: 38"

Are you turning over a new leaf?

No MC63, I am not turning over a new leaf. Sorry to disappoint you. If you really think I am going over to the dark side with you, you are out of your mind. But we already established the fact you are out of your mind, long ago.[/QUOTE]

Your sad little apology is way too late, way too little, and way too insincere.

You are the worst hypocrite in the history of this board. One set of rules for some people, yet a completely different set for others.

Hypocrite, hypocrite, hypocrite.

 

[Normdog]

If you cancel the 2017 season the season like many people are advocating aren't you basically punishing the 2016 sophomore team who more then likely had kids abused by upper classmen who will no longer be in the school next year? This isn't Penn State where kids can transfer out to avoid punishment theses kids live in the community and the vast majority will be going LZ next year with a football program or not.

It is going to be very tough on all of the students who are hit by collateral damage, but, for that they need to look squarely at where the responsibility for that lies...the players who perpetrated it, the coaches and administrators who knowingly allowed it to continue (which they did, RE the parents conference call with the Dean of Students), the Superintendent who has hidden behind euphemisms and the school board that took no serious actions after it became aware of the failures.

It is beyond comprehension that the person responsible for discipline at the school the Dean of Students essentially just blew it off when the parents informed him of the problem in September.

Again, back to the analogy of the orphan on trial for killing his parents who says "I can't be punished because I am an orphan"

 

[MC63]

Brin, that's because it's what he does. He makes everything political.

Trying to cover your butt by saying that your opponent is making something "political" is as weak as you can get. It is the last refuge of a weakling. Claiming you gave me a "beat down" when nothing like that ever occurred is simply another in your long string of lies. Yes, you ranted and raved ... but, as Macbeth said, "a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

 

[Voodoo Tatum 21]

If you cancel the 2017 season the season like many people are advocating aren't you basically punishing the 2016 sophomore team who more then likely had kids abused by upper classmen who will no longer be in the school next year? This isn't Penn State where kids can transfer out to avoid punishment theses kids live in the community and the vast majority will be going LZ next year with a football program or not.

That is a very good point - but two things come to the forefront ahead of that concern in my mind at least.

1. After school activities are a privilege and not a right. The contracts all players and their parents sign - point out a litany of things that will get you suspended or kicked off a team. Not doing anything wrong, not drinking etc BUT you are sitting with your older siblings while they drinking and someone takes a photo and puts out on twitter and school admin sees it and it looks like "a party"?suspension and possible sitting out a year.

2. Safety - sometimes you can't fix the house and it needs to be bulldozed down and a new house with new foundation can be built in its place.

I know it would suck for the sophomores (and feel horrible about that) but they would be able to play their senior season.

 

[epicbret]

It's Penn State at the HS level. Kids being sexually assaulted in the halls of the institution, with a blatant washover

 

[MC63]

How do you know this? Are you sure they weren't honors students? Some honors students never do things like this?

My point, here, is that attacking someone and posting a video of that attack on social media indicates that the two girls were very stupid.

It's appropriate that I have to explain this to you.

 

[ramblinman]

Ramblin you are correct in all of your points. However, based upon their behavior at all levels, there is not a chance that LZ cancels the season on their own. There has been ZERO level of acknowledgement of a problem or accountability from all levels of administration right up to and including the school board. The IHSA is going to have to do it.

Sadly, you are right.

 

[flyerforlife]

It's at least 20 years of bad apples! How do you get rid that? Football isn't that important. It's a big problem that has a tradition! Sick tradition but it's been happening for a long time. You don't just get rid of the bad apples you ban the entire program.

Corey you are correct at least the IHSA should allow the incoming freshmen to play else where. So their career is not ruined by this all other members who watched or took part should not be allowed to play anywhere

 

[BBCHS77]

I just dont see you can tell the kids that we're abused that they won't have a team this year. Remove and punish the admin, coaches, players and parents involved and move on. If the IHSA needs to assign someone to oversee the program, do that too at the districts expense.

 

[stripes13]

I'd probably spend whatever money you have for the time being and investigate every coach, at every level, in every sport.

There is a lot of trust that needs to be won back.

 

[Dr. Mirakle]

My point, here, is that attacking someone and posting a video of that attack on social media indicates that the two girls were very stupid.

It's appropriate that I have to explain this to you.

Well of course the act is stupid. It is also criminal. But, I know a lot of people with "intelligence" ...intelligence from books, who do real stupid things. They overestimate their intelligence and underestimate the intelligence of others. Kind of like you in that overestimation/underestimation.

if you're naive enough to think some honors students don't do things like this, you need help.

 

[Dr. Mirakle]

It's Penn State at the HS level. Kids being sexually assaulted in the halls of the institution, with a blatant washover

WHOA!!

 

[Dr. Mirakle]

Trying to cover your butt by saying that your opponent is making something "political" is as weak as you can get. It is the last refuge of a weakling. Claiming you gave me a "beat down" when nothing like that ever occurred is simply another in your long string of lies. Yes, you ranted and raved ... but, as Macbeth said, "a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

Hahaha!! What a complete nut you are. This is priceless. Do do politicize everything. Now, go calm down and take a nap.

 

[JJones1212]

I am a past Lake Zurich community member and former high school football team member. First, I am obviously ashamed and disgusted by what encountered this year. No child should ever feel like they are in an unsafe situation when they go to school or participate in a sport. That being said, as a professional in the child development field, the "solution" being suggested by many of you of just shutting down the football program or cancelling next season is so wrong. There are 1000s of youth and underclassmen in that community that turn to football for growth and development as a person. As a lot of us who played the sport know football was a main, if not the biggest factor, in shaping us into the men we are today. To abandon these new children, as well as possibly even some of the hazed children, who have done nothing wrong, and decided to make football an avenue of their growth is simply the incorrect choice. These children need to be led immediately into the correct direction and continue to have football as part of who they are. That is why the correct solution is what I will detail below.

Let me first start off by saying that these decisions are based on the fact that there has not been a hazing "tradition" for 20 years in LZ. I was a member of the football team under the Bryan Stortz regime. He, and his assistant coaches, were all great men who took their jobs of making the children they coached into great young men very seriously. We were truly a football family all 4 years I was there and to even suggest that there was this horrid culture created then is downright ignorant and offensive to all past LZ football members. The Lake Zurich community is not filled with hazing culture like many of the articles written have suggested. These egregious acts of hazing from the reliable articles I have read and from what I have heard from reliable sources are isolated to this year and this year only.

Back to the solution: obviously the first step is to hold all people needed accountable. This has been taken care of pretty much by the "resignations". District 95 entrusted the principal who entrusted the AD who entrusted the Head Coach to provide a safe program for all participants. Because they did not then all should be punished and let go, like they have been. Also the Dean who ignored the first incident of the year should have been and was fired. In regard to player discipline, contrary to belief the school has done something about this from what I have heard, what it was I do not know. The next step will be to hire an elite principal, AD, and head coach who all have prior successful experience. They all need to be able to help the school turn the corner from this seasons acts and begin to lead the new group of children back down the right path. These hires, combined with the educational programs the district and the lawsuit are both setting up, will work together to rebuild the character of the school.

 

[bronco man]

It's Penn State at the HS level. Kids being sexually assaulted in the halls of the institution, with a blatant washover

My first thought was that their were some similarities, but significant differences. On second thought, from what I have read the parents at LZ are in denial, and to this day many PS fans are in denial as to who knew what when.

 

[Dr. Mirakle]

No MC63, I am not turning over a new leaf. Sorry to disappoint you. If you really think I am going over to the dark side with you, you are out of your mind. But we already established the fact you are out of your mind, long ago.

Your sad little apology is way too late, way too little, and way too insincere.

You are the worst hypocrite in the history of this board. One set of rules for some people, yet a completely different set for others.

Hypocrite, hypocrite, hypocrite.[/QUOTE]
In the HISTORY of the board!! Holy Jesus. The HISTORY of the board!! Look in the mirror like I suggested.

Hahaha! Get back on your meds and do us all a favor.

"And this year's Oscar award for dramatics goes to none other than MC63!!!