You don’t have to be sure about anything. My comment was that the programs that are successful hate districting. It diminishes competition and dilutes the playoffs. SHG doesn’t like it either.
IHSA - District Proposal - Official Language
- Thread starter DJrodey24
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The problem is neither CPS of CCL have 8 teams in any one class.
Like I've said before, if districts were six teams, I think this solution is much more workable
CPS has WAY more than 8 teams in several classes.
But that's why I suggested bumping up or down if the number doesn't fit. Agreed that 6-team regions is more ideal, for a number of reasons.
CPS football programs fit into this year's classifications as follows:
5 in 1A
9 in 2A
9 in 3A
21 in 4A
21 in 5A
11 in 6A
3 in 7A
3 in 8A
Why are we stuck on Districts being from one class? Why are we stuck on 8 teams per District.
Here is my most recent thought....
4 Classes have a A and AA in each class (larger schools are AA)
Private or non-boundaried schools are automatically placed in AA.
64 teams from Class 1 get into playoffs 32 largest are AA next 32 are single A
Same for Class 2, 3, 4
Same total of 256 make playoffs.
Same 8 Champions.
**Use the 1.65 multiplier
**Get rid of success factor.
Districts do not need to be relegated to 8 teams. Make them so geographically they work but their District record does qualify them for playoffs. Top 2 teams qualify and then a certain amount of at large bids. Use a system like CalPreps for at large bids. (Personally I like 6 teams per District 5 District games and then 4 non-district, allows teams to keep rivalries). I will use Naz as an Example but they could go 5-0 in District and then schedule 4 monsters out of District and go 0-4 and still qualify for playoffs).
I am not going to break it all down but I am sure people who get paid to do this can figure it out. Plus using AI makes it easier. (Heck the new DVC,SWSC used AI to make their schedules).
Here is my most recent thought....
4 Classes have a A and AA in each class (larger schools are AA)
Private or non-boundaried schools are automatically placed in AA.
64 teams from Class 1 get into playoffs 32 largest are AA next 32 are single A
Same for Class 2, 3, 4
Same total of 256 make playoffs.
Same 8 Champions.
**Use the 1.65 multiplier
**Get rid of success factor.
Districts do not need to be relegated to 8 teams. Make them so geographically they work but their District record does qualify them for playoffs. Top 2 teams qualify and then a certain amount of at large bids. Use a system like CalPreps for at large bids. (Personally I like 6 teams per District 5 District games and then 4 non-district, allows teams to keep rivalries). I will use Naz as an Example but they could go 5-0 in District and then schedule 4 monsters out of District and go 0-4 and still qualify for playoffs).
I am not going to break it all down but I am sure people who get paid to do this can figure it out. Plus using AI makes it easier. (Heck the new DVC,SWSC used AI to make their schedules).
You're only mentioning 2 schools, how do schools like Camp Point Central, Greenfield, Althoff, Athens, Nashville, Mt. Carmel (downstate), Roxana, Tolono, etc. feel about districts? All successful small schools from the south. Do you speak for them too when you say that successful programs hate districting?
So then what's the difference between 4 classes with A and AA designations and 8 classes? It's just semantics between calling a class 4AA and 8A.
So I think the 24 escc/ccl teams are as follows with * indicating non multiplied
8A Loyola, Brother Rice, Marist, Ignatius
7A Mt Carmel, St Rita, Fenwick
6A Notre Dame*,
5A Joliet Catholic, Nazareth, St Francis, St. Viator*, Carmel*, Marmion*, Benet*, St. Patrick*, Marian*, Providence
4A IC, St Laurence*, DeLaSalle*, DePaul*
3A Montini*
3A Leo*
So the 8A classes are one "problem", along with Leo and maybe Montini, though they'll have some mates when they lose the waiver. The huge number of waivers, which I think was aided by the covid year, present another problem. But the waiver issue definitely shakes up a ton during each new district cycle. But I guess as public school enrollments fluctuate you geta a similar issue. A handful of waiver changes and a handful of public enrollment changes and every divisiin in districts 4A-7A is probably getting shuffled sihnificantly with regularity.
But you could potentially make some mostly full escc/ccl carve out classes along with CPS. However, you make those exceptions and then I'm sure a lot of other public conferences start to ask for the same.
Leads me back to my idea that a tiered system with a district option as an opt in is the solution. If there's 40-60% of schools that want districts, they self select in and schools who have concerns over the talent level or travel or whatever in districts stay in the current system. Maybe you end up with 4 classes in each and a dual system. Who says no? Potentially partition off part of the districts as closed enrollments only as well, to take care of that private non boundaries complaints.
I'm trying to think of the consequences of a multiper (with waiver as it is now) and an automatic bump to the AA division.
Waived Montini for example should be 3A. In new format they are "4A* (or 2AA or whatever you'd call it). They lose the waiver and so they're multiplied but that puts them up one class or where'd they were already? Is that the intent?
Waivered St Laurence is 4A, so they stay there. They lose the waiver so they would be 6A (3AA) now?
Waived Carmel is 5A, but I think unwaived Carmel becomes 7A (though it's close). So they're maybe 6A if they miss the cutoff, but 8A if they don't?
Kind of an imbalanced system largely driven by luck and random enrollment placement. Seems like you just do the auto bump or the multiplier but not both. Needless to say there are gonna be some really unhappy public AA schools...
Show me how it would "Dilute" the Playoffs. The 5th best team out of 8 wont get in. From the districts proposals I have looked at there wasn't a whole lot of districts that had 5 quality playoff teams in them in any class.
I came up with 544 football playing schools in 2023.
Class 1 A&AA: up to enrollment of 373.50
Class 2 A&AA: up to enrollment of 744
Class 3 A&AA up to enrollment of 1624.50
Class 4 A&AA over enrollment of 1624.50
**This is a 25% breakdown per class
**These numbers are rough and are without multiplier movement of schools.
Examples:
St Laurence with Multiplier 1392.60 - Class 3AA
Carmel Catholic with Multiplier 1772.93 - Class 4AA
Mount Carmel with Multiplier 1961.85 - Class 4AA
East St Louis - 1194 - Class 3 (A or AA depending on breakdown)
Antioch - 1290 - Class 3 (A or AA depending on breakdown)
Nazareth with Multiplier 1180.58 - Class 3AA
Montini with Multiplier 805.20 - Class 3AA
The A & AA are not broken down till playoffs.
All of Class 1 schools can be in a district. It expands your District map.
Class 4 AA: Loyola, Brother Rice, Marist, Ignatius, Mt Carmel, St Rita, Fenwick, Notre Dame, Carmel, Benet, Marmion
Class 3 AA: Joliet Catholic, Nazareth, St Francis, St. Viator, St. Patrick, Marian, Providence, Montini, St Laurence, DePaul, DeLaSalle, Boylan, Wheaton Academy, SHG,
Class 2 AA: IC, Leo, Woodstock Marian
Class 1 AA: Aurora Christian,
Class 3 AA: Joliet Catholic, Nazareth, St Francis, St. Viator, St. Patrick, Marian, Providence, Montini, St Laurence, DePaul, DeLaSalle, Boylan, Wheaton Academy, SHG,
Class 2 AA: IC, Leo, Woodstock Marian
Class 1 AA: Aurora Christian,
Given that Althoff was kicked out of their last conference, they would love to just be part of something. They were 4A when they were booted. They dropped to 1A since.
Athens plays in a multi class conference which propels them to better showings in the playoffs.
As for the rest, why don't you interview those coaches or find a quote from them on their stances? Do the work...
You're supporting a proposal which will diminish quality of play, increase travel time, and destroy opportunities. Frankly, enough people on these threads bemoan how pathetic and subpar the smaller school classes are. And here we have people, such as you, supporting the effort to restrict the smaller schools from improving. Why would any parent decide to move to a community with a program that is capped at how good it can be? I mean seriously....explain why Rochester doesn't just send their JV out to play Macomb, QND, Havana, Stanford Olympia, Taylorville, & Peoria Manual. Furthermore, it deteriorates the coach staff's skillsets as well.
Districting is the epitome accepting mediocrity.
Next, you'll demand other schools "play up". Then let's take a school such as Athens, Rochester, ESL, who already do....successfully. What now? You'll then be complaining about how the successful schools who hate districting messed up the districts by playing up and caused havoc in scheduling.
And something you have not researched, the last proposal had Althoff in 4A. They lost in the 1A playoffs this year. Breese Mater Dei was also 4A. They lost in the 2A playoffs. It had Edwardsville making a 7-hour roundtrip (by car) to play LWE. Lockport would have to do the same to play Edwardsville. Districting creates 9 weeks out of the year in which the teams, cheer squads, etc are put on the road for an extended period of time. Tell us all about the safety concerns you would have of school bus driver fatigue to and from Chicago or Downstate.
That said, changing the playoffs to 1-32 across ALL classes would crrate similar travels, albeit for fewer weeks, and by week, for fewer teams. Given 1/2 of the teams make the playoffs, potential longer travel would exist for:
Week 1- 1/4 of the schools (128 potential)
Week 2- 1/8 of the schools (64 potential)
Week 3- 1/16 of the schools (32 potential)
Week 4- 1/32 of the schools (16 potential)
Week 5- toss up on who makes it.
Whereas under districting 256 schools will have potential long travel over ALL 9 weeks.
Any response should be accompanied by mileage comparisons of districting vs non-districting, along with a comparison of Strength of Schedule before and after districting. Simply because I did the Rochester district comparison and found their district, not including Rochester, had an AVERAGE ranking of 308....there are only 498 schools playing this season. Their current conference has an average ranking of 222, not including their #9 ranking.
Rochester could literally put their JV out against their entire proposed district this year. As could Loyola. As could MC. As could ESL. As could Byron. This is a dilution of the playoffs.
Whats interesting here is your rough classes do move the needle. For example, actually playoff qualifiers would put that 3AA/4A cutoff at 1784. That keeps a multiplied Carmel at 3AA. Now, randomness it the cutoff and luck are always unavoidable, but end up being doubly consequential when schools are automatically bumped up. So depending on if a private school is a natural A or AA enrollment and how close they are to that line has big implications... Just a really weird quirk when designed that way, since it's the difference of not just one class, but two. Or for other schools it will hardly matter and waived and bumped is the same as multiplied and unbumped.
AI made the schedule that crosses-over (13-1) LWE with Andrew and Stagg (both 3-6) instead of either or both of LWW (9-3) and Sandburg (6-4)? Someone on another thread stated it was blind draw. Either way it blows and probably should not happen.
You and everyone else needs to calm down until this passes and we know what the districts will be. This was repealed after a successful vote last time once the districts were announced so they won't be the same as the previous version.
There will still be some instances of extended travel which is a pain but won't be ALL teams EVERY week as you claim. Edwardsville to LWE would be every other year and only once. Edwardsville is in a unique situation, being the largest school that far south so they will have to travel more but it won't be every week, I'm not even sure where you get that. Of the 7 weeks of district games they would have 4 road games one year and 3 road games the next year. Not great, but not as atrocious as you make it sound. Also, in that previously proposed district O'Fallon and Bellville East were there, so Edwardsville would actually only have 2 long road trips one year and 3 the next year.
As much as this upsets you and your small world that revolves around only the Springfield area, you need to look at how it effects the entire state. There are plenty of schools who have trouble filling their schedule with non-conference games, or for those like QND who was independent this year they played more teams from Iowa then they did Illinois. Districts makes it so AD's only need to schedule 2 non district games and then the IHSA takes care of the rest. That is a huge plus for those AD's and will likely be the biggest reason this passes.
There's also the issue of conference constantly changing, merging, disappearing, and being created. Take my team, Morris, for example, they've been in 6 or 7 different conferences in the last 25 years with teams as far away as Riverside-Brookfield and Fenton.
There's 500+ football playing schools in Illinois and we're going back and forth about how this effects maybe 5% of them. Gotta look at how it effects the entire state and not just your corner of the world.
Not every district will be unbalanced competitively and not every district will have excessive travel. In the previous proposal Morris was in a district with Freeport, Geneseo, JCA, Rochelle, Rockford Boylan, Sterling, and Streator. The longest travel would be from JCA to Freeport which would be about 2.5 hours and outside of Freeport and Streator that would be a fairly competitive district.
Basically the difference is that while every possible system has some winners and losers, the losers in districts will have exactly zero control over it.
In the current system they may have been between a rock and a hard place, but could make the best of it according to their needs. But now an AD can just say "above my pay grade, cya"
And it only takes 51% of ADs (or school admins) to make that call for the other 49%
Your class size is quite unbalanced for 3A&AA. 1A&AA would be schools with a size of 0-374, 2A&AA would be 375-744, but 3A&AA would be 745-1625. The first two or four classes depending on how you view it have a range of 375-400 students but 3A&AA has a range of 880 students. That's putting schools like Plano in 3A with someone like Sycamore.
The ranges are clearly a bit off from actual playoff qualifying ranges. Which I guess will be the case with a district plan... But I don't know if it's a CPS non playoff eligible issue or what that's throwing it...
Not sure on the exact timeline, but the last vote was approved in 2018 and it was repealed in 2019 when the districts were revealed. I don't think it would take effect for the 2024 season as the previous vote that was approved in 2018 would have taken effect in 2021.
The official proposal says start district football in 2024.
Text of By-law with Proposed Changes
New By-law 5.074 - District Football Proposal Regular Season and Playoffs
I. CREATING A NEW BY-LAW TO GOVERN IHSA FOOTBALL
a. This proposal is creating a system for how the IHSA runs football.
i. Establishes regions of eight (8) schools to determine the teams that will make the IHSA Playoffs.
ii. This proposal will direct the IHSA Board of Directors to start district football in 2024.
Text of By-law with Proposed Changes
New By-law 5.074 - District Football Proposal Regular Season and Playoffs
I. CREATING A NEW BY-LAW TO GOVERN IHSA FOOTBALL
a. This proposal is creating a system for how the IHSA runs football.
i. Establishes regions of eight (8) schools to determine the teams that will make the IHSA Playoffs.
ii. This proposal will direct the IHSA Board of Directors to start district football in 2024.
Viator is in a district with Antioch in the proposal.....that guy will be complaining every time we play!
All.... If this passes the two non con (district) games open up a world of possibilities. Everyone will be looking for W1 and W2 games.
I would want to see first the district teams in SHG's group. There are two areas of thought on who to schedule. I'm curious what some of you would do as well.
Keep your main rivalries? For SHG likely Chatham and Rochester. Or and this would be intriguing schedule some teams that your team could meet up with in postseason play. Second time around games for schools can be very tricky for all. And theoretically this would benefit a school to be more prepared for the playoffs. A very tough choice for the 🐀 on what to do. Ratsy P.S. Who on door number two? Nazareth and JCA. Other possibles because unlike Naz these two likely would go south NLP and Morris. Athough the Skins might be 4A in 2024 and the Celtics 6A.
I would want to see first the district teams in SHG's group. There are two areas of thought on who to schedule. I'm curious what some of you would do as well.
Keep your main rivalries? For SHG likely Chatham and Rochester. Or and this would be intriguing schedule some teams that your team could meet up with in postseason play. Second time around games for schools can be very tricky for all. And theoretically this would benefit a school to be more prepared for the playoffs. A very tough choice for the 🐀 on what to do. Ratsy P.S. Who on door number two? Nazareth and JCA. Other possibles because unlike Naz these two likely would go south NLP and Morris. Athough the Skins might be 4A in 2024 and the Celtics 6A.
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If you take a look at every other IHSA sport these are very close to their breakdowns in classes. You also have to take into account that AA will be the "privates" plus the other largest schools in the class and the A will be the smaller of the 32 schools in the class.
The IHSA is a member body. It is governed by votes. Majority votes. As some like to say, "You don't like it? Leave."
I'm just not sure what this is really solving? Conference restructuring? Teams will still have to get non-conference games.
I think better time could be spend on trying to figure outa better way to seed the playoffs etc...
I think better time could be spend on trying to figure outa better way to seed the playoffs etc...
Here is why I like 6 team Districting.
1. No more worries about conference shuffling.
2. Win or come in 2nd in your District and make the playoffs. (Only District games count for your record).
3. 5 District games and 4 out of District games. If you are GOOD play GOOD teams in non District test yourself it doesnt matter if you go 0-4 you can still make the playoffs.
1. No more worries about conference shuffling.
2. Win or come in 2nd in your District and make the playoffs. (Only District games count for your record).
3. 5 District games and 4 out of District games. If you are GOOD play GOOD teams in non District test yourself it doesnt matter if you go 0-4 you can still make the playoffs.
So many great opinions and projected formulas. It almost looks like something out of a calculus class at times!
It'll all be a moot point when it gets voted down and they agree to revisit the subject in a year or two
I think what will be interesting is to see what the results of the voting look like this time compared to last time. Will the voting reveal that there's been an increased interest, basically the same as last time or a decreased interest?
I think for me the biggest issues from ny piunt if view are travel. It seems that the schools in Classes 8 and 7 are pretty basic until you start getting down to that southern area of 7A where we have the schools outside of the St Louis area in Illinois grouped together with the schools that are up in this part of the state.
Then who knows what class 6A down to 1A is going to look like .
Then there will be the breaking up of long time Conferences like the CCL the West Suburban, North Suburban, Mid Suburban and all though many schools from those conferences will still be grouped together somewhat they're not going to be their own individual group as they have been many for years..
We'll see ..
It'll all be a moot point when it gets voted down and they agree to revisit the subject in a year or two
I think what will be interesting is to see what the results of the voting look like this time compared to last time. Will the voting reveal that there's been an increased interest, basically the same as last time or a decreased interest?
I think for me the biggest issues from ny piunt if view are travel. It seems that the schools in Classes 8 and 7 are pretty basic until you start getting down to that southern area of 7A where we have the schools outside of the St Louis area in Illinois grouped together with the schools that are up in this part of the state.
Then who knows what class 6A down to 1A is going to look like .
Then there will be the breaking up of long time Conferences like the CCL the West Suburban, North Suburban, Mid Suburban and all though many schools from those conferences will still be grouped together somewhat they're not going to be their own individual group as they have been many for years..
We'll see ..
Of course they can. I don't imagine any will because it's one sport affected and schools are concerned with a dozen or more sports that the IHSA supports.
It's still dumb. Do they treat any other sport like this?
The Chicago CCL teams are a big problem being lumped with CPS.
No, but if they did, everyone makes the playoffs. Is that what you are looking for?
No. I think current setup is best mix of maxing regular season opportunities and fitting season into a reasonable schedule. As I recall expanded playoff proposals before just had net effect of shortening regular season and I don't think the season should realistically start earlier or go later.
All.... Yes I know that. I didn't say they don't count for seeding purposes. What the language doesn't show is that winning one or two of those first games count in the four top spots that get a school into postseason play.
Since that is not referenced I assume it does not. So one can schedule a couple of heavy hitters and even if that results in going 0-2 district play wins is what determines getting into the playoffs. Ratsy
How soon would the IHSA have to post the Districts?
How soon can a motion to reconsider be voted on? After the districts were posted last time the vote flip just short of 150 the other way.
So how do they handle teams that have signed contracts for games and stadiums that are not within their leagues? Does the IHSA have the legal authority to void those contracts?
And lastly is there any possibility that Carmel of Mundelein and Antioch could be in the same District? In one way I'd like to see Districts for one season.
And lastly be careful what you wish for. It's a possibility that every CCL/ESCC team could qualify for the playoffs. 1-8 Leo could win the district I saw before.
All..... Section III (C) although there looks to be a typo (three -The) Three districts will be announced by the Monday of Week 31. Of course the AD's will have to hit the phones fairly quick and schedule those first two games.
The rest of your questions. Only God knows.... Ratsy
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