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Q of the Week: So what's the fix?

R
eagles2k3 said:
Word I’m hearing is that a proposal to separate the Public and Non Boundary schools is currently being written by some pretty large public high schools in the Chicago area. 6 public classes and 2 non boundary classes is the proposal. To be implemented for the 25-26 school year. Not sharing names but it’s coming.
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Just football?
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Public 106 Private 62

epicbret
USD24 said:
Not really sure what your post is about, but when I saw the pioneer league mentioned, I had to chime in. The top program in the league over the last few decades(University of San Diego!) has a handful of area kids. 1 each from Marmion, York, SF, HF and Notre Dame. When I played there back in the dark ages, I believe we had three Chicago area kids on the roster, JCHS(yours truly) HF and Loyola.
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It's about how Pioneer League rosters are not hiding loads of Ramblers. In fact, all of Northern and central Illinois seem to be equally represented, public and private.

Born out by facts, not anecdotal thoughts.

I do thank you for your anecdote though, as it supports my research.
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Public School Advantages

H
Snetsrak61 said:
And maybe I conflated the feeder school with "youth football". And like I said outright, they just got a new coach so they certainly aren't running a feeder to the level like you're saying about scheme implementation. The Maine South / Park Ridge is the prime example. But even York has had long standing "feeder football" programs. I believe the York coaches before Fitzgerald just weren't doing much with it. It was it's own thing. But the kids in those programs grew up playing together in middle school and onto York.

But if there's even like 60% continuity of the local youth leagues where those feeder schools flow into the HS that does probably constitute, very loosely a "feeder program". Even if the coach at CC there never tries to do top-down coaching with scheme and stuff, that's a pretty great setup and a possible asset to the school.
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Totally agree - 60% to one school would for sure be a feeder in my mind. My read of the CC situation was that it was FAR less than that. Haven't looked at the thread, but my read was that ~90% of kids from their affiliated elementary schools attend CC, but with regards to football we are talking about a small sliver of a handful of Southwest suburban Pop Warner (etc.) programs.

Where is the CC grad when you need him!
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Public School Advantages

H
PowerI66 said:
It's amazing that we don't see more coaches leaving to take over public programs with all of these advantages
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The advantages are structural for publics. They are cultural for privates.

Who is going to take better care of their vehicle:

-Someone who, when they turned 16, where gifted a brand new Mercedes SUV
-Someone who bought their first car (Toyota Corrola) at age 23 after taking the bus all through college and scrimping and saving to buy it?

Extreme example, and not meant to disparage Publics in any way. But the kids enjoying the huge scoreboard at Barrington are doing so by default. The parents of the kids practicing on that little wedge of turf out behind St. Patrick have likely had to make quite a few sacrifices for their kids to have the pleasure of commuting down Belmont Ave traffic to duke it out in the CCL.

In all facets of life, I would never underestimate the motivation of people to (often subconsciously) prove to the world their rationale in making an "inconvenient" decision.
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Public School Advantages

Snetsrak61
HotBeer said:
I think most of that conversation was referencing their two "feeder schools", which are affiliated with the high school. If I recall, the poster said most kids that show up have played football at various pop warner programs, etc.

Which I guess begs the question, what constitutes a "feeder" program? IMO, it's one that directs the majority of kids to a HS and has some level of communications or strategic continuity with the HS.

If the St. Cajetan's football team is sending players to Mt Carmel, St. Rita, Marist, Brother Rice, and St. Laurence and running an offense completely independent of all 5, I don't really think it's a feeder for any.

On the flip side, if 90% of the Park Ridge Falcons players are attending Maine South and the higher age group teams are running schemes loosely based on Inserra, it's a feeder, to Maine South. It is NOT a feeder to Notre Dame, even if a few guys attend.
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And maybe I conflated the feeder school with "youth football". And like I said outright, they just got a new coach so they certainly aren't running a feeder to the level like you're saying about scheme implementation. The Maine South / Park Ridge is the prime example. But even York has had long standing "feeder football" programs. I believe the York coaches before Fitzgerald just weren't doing much with it. It was it's own thing. But the kids in those programs grew up playing together in middle school and onto York.

But if there's even like 60% continuity of the local youth leagues where those feeder schools flow into the HS that does probably constitute, very loosely a "feeder program". Even if the coach at CC there never tries to do top-down coaching with scheme and stuff, that's a pretty great setup and a possible asset to the school.
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Champions League

Wassup13
With the private and public debate, a recent CCL podcast mentioned having a champions league.

This means the top 8 ranked teams by max preps (public and private) would have their own championship bracket.

This drastically would change the outcomes of the 1a thru 8a state brackets.

What do you think about this?

It was on The Varsity Voices Chicago Catholic League latest podcast. They talk about it towards the end of the podcast.
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Public School Advantages

H
Snetsrak61 said:
Seen a couple posts from supporters that referenced feeders since their win. I'll try to find and link it.
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I think most of that conversation was referencing their two "feeder schools", which are affiliated with the high school. If I recall, the poster said most kids that show up have played football at various pop warner programs, etc.

Which I guess begs the question, what constitutes a "feeder" program? IMO, it's one that directs the majority of kids to a HS and has some level of communications or strategic continuity with the HS.

If the St. Cajetan's football team is sending players to Mt Carmel, St. Rita, Marist, Brother Rice, and St. Laurence and running an offense completely independent of all 5, I don't really think it's a feeder for any.

On the flip side, if 90% of the Park Ridge Falcons players are attending Maine South and the higher age group teams are running schemes loosely based on Inserra, it's a feeder, to Maine South. It is NOT a feeder to Notre Dame, even if a few guys attend.
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Public 106 Private 62

USD24
epicbret said:
I just reviewed 3 pioneer League rosters. No Loyola kids seen.

OPRF had 3
Geneva 3
LT, Warren, Fenwick, Burlington Central, Lake Park, and a few others had 2.

Will review more later to see who has the best bad point
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Not really sure what your post is about, but when I saw the pioneer league mentioned, I had to chime in. The top program in the league over the last few decades(University of San Diego!) has a handful of area kids. 1 each from Marmion, York, SF, HF and Notre Dame. When I played there back in the dark ages, I believe we had three Chicago area kids on the roster, JCHS(yours truly) HF and Loyola.
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Q of the Week: So what's the fix?

Snetsrak61
SiuCubFan8 said:
So lets say the "fix" ends up being separation.
- Do we see less non-conference private/public games? Publics schools it doesn't really matter but with only so many private schools if public schools choose not to play them it could lead to a ton of out of state games.
- Do public schools see a separation as a way to keep kids in district?
- Does this just make the gap between the two even larger in the longer term?
- Do enough Admins actually care to get something passed like separation?
- Why separate when some of these school already call themselves the "3A public state champion." I used 3A as an example.
Just some thoughts.
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I think a lot less will change than people proposing hope for. We'll get some "new" champions crowned, but I think they'll still look pretty familiar.

I'm gonna have to go run though my enrollment data, but I suspect East St. Louis, without an ability to opt up due to their conference rule would end up in the new 4A which would be the 3rd largest public class.... Have fun with that, if so. Can we extend them private school status? (and anyone else who wants it 😂)
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Q of the Week: So what's the fix?

S
So lets say the "fix" ends up being separation.
- Do we see less non-conference private/public games? Publics schools it doesn't really matter but with only so many private schools if public schools choose not to play them it could lead to a ton of out of state games.
- Do public schools see a separation as a way to keep kids in district?
- Does this just make the gap between the two even larger in the longer term?
- Do enough Admins actually care to get something passed like separation?
- Why separate when some of these school already call themselves the "3A public state champion." I used 3A as an example.
Just some thoughts.
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You Need Oil to Make Shoes (USA Today report ESPN's Unsportsmanlike too)

crusader_of_90
TigerforFlyers said:
Ha! Must’ve been at Fletcher’s!!! We had drinks last Tuesday before the state finals.
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Nope - the country club. That dude is awesome! His brother lived across the street from out family when I was growing up. The excitement my Dad had when telling me who's BROTHER - not even the guy himself - was moving in, I will never forget.
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Public School Advantages

Snetsrak61
LHSTigers94 said:
The problem is they do have the awareness however, we want things as easy as possible. We don't have the will to compete, we have the will to win regardless of how it happens.

there is no shot at coaching from my end. That is what is used when publics speak to the disparity of players in one program vs the other. They are often told that it’s not the players, it’s coaching.
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Oh it was definitely a shot, just one you apparently feel justified making because of other perceived shots made.

But it's asinine. Even coaches who don't have to move between classifications will have relatively up or down years. Let's not ponder coaching ability under the hypothetical of a team who moves up and fails to replicate success (since that already happens year over year to great coaches even when there isn't a classification move)
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Q of the Week: So what's the fix?

A
Gestalt45 said:
“although Montini and IC Catholic also frequently win championships at the 3A level.” Montini has never won at the 3A level outside of this year and IC has won 3A Once in the last 7 years…. Come on you’re better than that
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Your carefully crafted response is true, as far as it goes. However, given that there were no playoffs in 2020 due to COVID, and given that IC Catholic won the 3A championship in 2016 and 2017 (in addition to the 2022 championship you referred to), that means those two schools have won four of the last eight 3A championships. That seems fairly frequent to me.

Additionally, when considering the substance of my statement, as most fair-minded individuals would do, it should also be observed that the primary reason the two schools did not win more 3A championships during that time span is the fact that IC Catholic was busy winning the 4A title in 2018; and Montini was busy finishing second to Joliet Catholic in the 2018 5A championship game.

I stand by the statement I made.
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Q of the Week: So what's the fix?

Snetsrak61
Cross Bones said:
I like the committee idea. That's what I proposed. But you bring up a good point, the Prep Bowl is already a thing, so maybe nothing has to be done... except cancel that game against the CPL champ. That would be a disaster.
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If you did top 8 private into one class the first out, per Massey ratings is Montini. Go to 10 and first out is Providence.

The private schools would for sure have an edge, but I think many years your best CPS open enrollment (like a Simeon) could put up a compelling game. Seemed like most of the good open CPS seemed like they were down a bit this year though.

But yea, not ideal.

Maybe institute a second small class private, as long as you're gonna have 2 (also a 8-10 similar format, would be mostly your tiny suburban Christian schools) and then keep Prep Bowl as is since the exemption exists already, adds opportunity for some schools.
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