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Based on jr’s and soph’s who are the top teams for 2025

2007? Didn't Morris win that regular season matchup, or am I thinking of 2006? Also, not sure I'd consider the '11, '23, and '24 JCA runners up teams less dominant, they just ran into better teams in the finals.

You are correct in mentioning the coaching though. Darlington would and could go toe to toe with anyone and Dergo was too insane to ever know if he was overmatched and that translated to his teams. Thorson, however, not so much. He's had mostly regular season success with a couple of runner up finishes, but with Morris being a very close knit community and Thorson not being from Morris much of the community has never warmed up to him. Not saying that's fair, just my assessment.

To pjjp's point, conference hopping has definitely played a role in their success. While they could still compete with several of the Southwest Prairie teams and it makes the most geographical sense those schools have simply gotten too big. While they would be competitive in football that would not be the case in most every other sport which is what led to the conference jumping. Between Morris choosing to find a new conference, conferences dissolving, and realignment it has definitely had an effect.

I think Morris has started to realize they are in an above average 5A conference but that they need more to be successful so they scheduled Peoria in non conference as well as Joliet West and the team from Michigan who just finished as state runner up in their class. Will be interesting to see who they get to replace Coal City. Pretty sure they have Peoria at home next year and they play the team from Michigan at home as well. Would like to see them continue the trend of playing larger schools to replace Joliet West and potentially a former Little 7 conference or SPC foe to start the year like one of the Plainfield's, Yorkville, or a team like a Washington. Would love a regular season game with JCA, or Provi, but don't see those being realistic possibilities, not saying either side would shy away but with all the CCL/ESCC crossover commitments I don't know how feasible it would be.
they would be top of the conference in both football and baseball, basketball though...... not so much

Public School Advantages

Ahhhh I see that I have misread what you are trying to say. Your argument is just that private teams have a better "culture?"
No, not that they "just" have better culture. It is a result of the dynamics of private schooling, for two reasons:

  • People are more invested when they pay for something vs when they get it for free. This is true across basically every domain of society. From a football perspective, on average, the families of private school football players are going to be more invested in the team/their child's success.
  • Private schools do not have mandate or requirement to exist. They must constantly demonstrate their value, or cease to exist, like Holy Cross, Guerin, Driscoll, Weber, etc. etc. This is obviously much broader than football, but the effects are present in football as well. No matter how many consecutive sub-3 win season Round Lake strings together (streak has been going since 2002), there isn't any existential pressure on the administration to do anything about it.

My hypothesis is that the metro Chicago public schools that have successfully become dynastic are the ones that have actually made it a point of civic pride to play for the, say, Maine South Hawks. I played in their feeder program (but lived over the border in the city so couldn't go to MS) and remember kids being disappointed they were going to St. Pats or ND because they wanted to play for MS.
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Public School Advantages

This, in a way, helps prove my point. Each side has pros and cons, but the pros are clearly larger on one side. However, for some reason, this is extremely difficult for some to comprehend or accept.
I don't think "larger" is the right way to look at it. "more pronounced?" As I've often stated, there's a success divide across both types of schools. I think privates have a very clear greater discrepancy. Drop down off the top tier of both and things are competetive between school types. So I think the public pros are pretty good at baseline and staying running. Private school is more likely to drop football or close altogether than catapult to the high end. But for private and public schools who ascend, the private schools do tend to be more secure in staying there (as long as the whole school doesn't close, that is)

This public "pro" also I think presents differently at large/urban verse small/rural publics, at least for football. I think the very small school of any type had a relatively high "entry cost" to even maintain football. It's the large public districts where the cost of entry is pretty low and so there's not necessarily a lot of demand to excel. It can kind of continue indefinitely in a way small schools of any type can't really ensure. Hence starting around the level of 5A that difference suddenly becomes very obvious and pronounced.

Public School Advantages

It may, but the "pro" that privates tend to "enjoy" is a great deal of care, focus, and effort. That is not something that should be legislated against to the perceived benefit of public schools, but rather something that public schools should attempt to replicate.

Maine South, WWS, LWE, etc. have managed to capture this at various points. Obviously small town/downstate teams have cultivated this culture as well, but less relevant to the discussion when their student populations often don't have a private option.
Notice it's always larger schools that have this "culture", its almost like culture is a just a sub for large talent base.

Q of the Week: So what's the fix?

My off the cuff proposal would look something like:

Prep Bowl - Invitational (used Massey ratings)
1 - Wilmette (Loyola Academy)
2 - Chicago (Mt. Carmel)
3 - Chicago (Marist)
4 - LaGrange Park (Nazareth Academy)
5 - Joliet (Catholic Academy)
6 - Chicago (St. Rita)
7 - Oak Park (Fenwick)
8 - Chicago (Brother Rice)

Prep Bowl - Classic (next 16 qualifiers, seeded/qualified under current rules)
1 - Chicago (Whitney Young)
2 - Belleville (Althoff Catholic)
3 - Quincy (Notre Dame)
4 - West Chicago (Wheaton Academy)
5 - Palos Heights (Chicago Christian)
6 - Wheaton (St. Francis)
7 - Chicago (North Lawndale Charter)
8 - Sterling (Newman Central Catholic)
9 - Lombard (Montini)
10 - Chicago (Agricultural Science)
11 - Chicago (Simeon)
12 - Normal (University)
13 - Lisle (Benet Academy)
14 - Rockford (Lutheran)
15 - Chicago (DePaul)
16 - Chicago (Prosser)

Prep Bowl - Traditional (all others eligible for current prep bowl, along with boundaried CPS and non-qualifier CCL, basically same format as now, but open to additional private schools)
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Public School Advantages

It may, but the "pro" that privates tend to "enjoy" is a great deal of care, focus, and effort. That is not something that should be legislated against to the perceived benefit of public schools, but rather something that public schools should attempt to replicate.

Maine South, WWS, LWE, etc. have managed to capture this at various points. Obviously small town/downstate teams have cultivated this culture as well, but less relevant to the discussion when their student populations often don't have a private option.
Ahhhh I see that I have misread what you are trying to say. Your argument is just that private teams have a better "culture?"
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Public School Advantages

This, in a way, helps prove my point. Each side has pros and cons, but the pros are clearly larger on one side. However, for some reason, this is extremely difficult for some to comprehend or accept.
It may, but the "pro" that privates tend to "enjoy" is a great deal of care, focus, and effort. That is not something that should be legislated against to the perceived benefit of public schools, but rather something that public schools should attempt to replicate.

Maine South, WWS, LWE, etc. have managed to capture this at various points. Obviously small town/downstate teams have cultivated this culture as well, but less relevant to the discussion when their student populations often don't have a private option.

Public School Advantages

The advantages are structural for publics. They are cultural for privates.

Who is going to take better care of their vehicle:

-Someone who, when they turned 16, where gifted a brand new Mercedes SUV
-Someone who bought their first car (Toyota Corrola) at age 23 after taking the bus all through college and scrimping and saving to buy it?

Extreme example, and not meant to disparage Publics in any way. But the kids enjoying the huge scoreboard at Barrington are doing so by default. The parents of the kids practicing on that little wedge of turf out behind St. Patrick have likely had to make quite a few sacrifices for their kids to have the pleasure of commuting down Belmont Ave traffic to duke it out in the CCL.

In all facets of life, I would never underestimate the motivation of people to (often subconsciously) prove to the world their rationale in making an "inconvenient" decision.
This, in a way, helps prove my point. Each side has pros and cons, but the pros are clearly larger on one side. However, for some reason, this is extremely difficult for some to comprehend or accept.

Q of the Week: So what's the fix?

If they separate then screw the public schools. The private school leave IHSA & start their own association & public schools can’t play privates any more in any sport sadly no more Prep Bowl then
All.... It could be done but for the lower half of the state a logistical nightmare for privates that are spread out. Games played M-Thurs in other sports requiring distance and travel will be not only expensive (for many) but late nights getting back home. Ratsy

Private Schools 7 - Public Schools 1. That’s a wrap!

All of these excuses is what breeds mediocrity in any pursuit a person has for their future. Can we be frank…not every person is an academic, but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t have value. You seem to be of the opinion that telling a kid to consider the trades in 8th grade is an issue…why? It’s not less then going to a college prep school, it’s just different because that students talents are different from the college prep students. I’ll be the first to admit I can’t fix my car, but I can help you recover from a number of ailments, help provide clean water, and helped decode and understand the human genome. None of that makes me any better than you, it just makes me different than you. The world needs everyone to contribute in their own way not your way or my way.
And who would be making these decisions? Would you accept a decision from a principal or admissions counselor of a school that says your child is not an academic, and therefore will be taught a skill and sent to the labor force? What happens if parents disagree? Who has the final say?
BTW, students who go to a college prep school can still join a trade.

Q of the Week: So what's the fix?

If I was the Czar, for the two private schools classes I would just use their straight up enrollment (doubled if still single gender). Of the total amount of privates or non boundary schools, the 32 with the best records make the playoffs (same IHSA playoff points system to break time breakers) and the split is purely enrollment based. Biggest 16 in the Large bracket, the smallest 16 in the Small bracket.
What would the 32 teams and 2 brackets look like for 2024?

Q of the Week: So what's the fix?

If I was the Czar, for the two private schools classes I would just use their straight up enrollment (doubled if still single gender). Of the total amount of privates or non boundary schools, the 32 with the best records make the playoffs (same IHSA playoff points system to break time breakers) and the split is purely enrollment based. Biggest 16 in the Large bracket, the smallest 16 in the Small bracket.
Lucky for you this czar has the data to show this;

v2.0 corrected for data error that wasn't picking up DePaul and Routt Catholic. Boylan Catholic and one of Bloomington Central Catholic or Ottawa Marquette are bumped (they appear to be tied across all metrics). JCA up to large class (thank goodness)

Large Class
16 - Chicago (Westinghouse College Prep) at 1 - Chicago (Whitney Young)
15 - Burbank (St. Laurence) at 2 - Chicago (Marist)
14 - Chicago (Prosser) at 3 - West Chicago (Wheaton Academy)
13 - Chicago (Brother Rice) at 4 - LaGrange Park (Nazareth Academy)
12 - Lisle (Benet Academy) at 5 - Wilmette (Loyola Academy)
11 - Joliet (Catholic Academy) at 6 - Wheaton (St. Francis)
10 - Chicago (Mt. Carmel) at 7 - Chicago (St. Rita)
9 - Chicago (Simeon) at 8 - Oak Park (Fenwick)

Small Class
16 - Ottawa (Marquette)/Bloomington (Central Catholic) at 1 - Belleville (Althoff Catholic)
15 - Jacksonville (Routt) [Coop] at 2 - Quincy (Notre Dame)
14 - Peoria (Notre Dame) at 3 - Palos Heights (Chicago Christian)
13 - Chicago (C. Hope Academy) at 4 - Chicago (North Lawndale Charter)
12 - Springfield (Sacred Heart-Griffin) at 5 - Sterling (Newman Central Catholic)
11 - Chicago (King) at 6 - Lombard (Montini)
10 - Rockford (Lutheran) at 7 - Chicago (Agricultural Science)
9 - Chicago (DePaul) at 8 - Normal (University)


Out of Playoffs
One of Marquette/BCC
Rockford (Boylan Catholic)
Decatur (St. Teresa)
Chicago (Payton)
Aurora (Marmion Academy)
Chicago (Noble/Bulls)

Q of the Week: So what's the fix?

If I was the Czar, for the two private schools classes I would just use their straight up enrollment (doubled if still single gender). Of the total amount of privates or non boundary schools, the 32 with the best records make the playoffs (same IHSA playoff points system to break time breakers) and the split is purely enrollment based. Biggest 16 in the Large bracket, the smallest 16 in the Small bracket.
All... A math problem that would change year to year but with the amount of privates (and does this proposal include non boundried football playing publics?) would it change the win threshhold greatly to make the postseason? Ratsy

Public 106 Private 62

You seem to be one of the few individuals contributing to this topic who does not take a highly partisan view of the matter. You have also spent a lot of time thinking about the topic and, as you mention above, writing about specific aspects of the topic. Out of respect, I do want you to know I read your earlier, lengthy post regarding the overall playoff winning percentage between private and public schools over the last 20 or so years. In fact, I have probably read it about five times now, and have given it considerable thought each time. It is a commendable piece of work given the apparent amount of time you spent thinking about the topic. I did not want you to think your post has been ignored by everyone.

Nevertheless, I must admit I come away each time (after having read and thought about your post) unconvinced that you have arrived at the correct conclusion. I apologize for the disservice I am about to do you, but I simply do not have the energy to engage in a lengthy debate about why that is my view. I foresee doing the discussion justice would require many posts back and forth between us, and I simply don't want to begin that process. My youth is in the distant past and even my middle-age years are becoming a fading memory. Lengthy debates are taxing.

I will say, moving to the broader topic, I do not think you and I are far apart in our views. Ideally, we both seem to believe keeping the private schools and the public schools in the same playoffs is best. We may, though, disagree on how realistic that is. It has been demonstrated the status quo creates much dissatisfaction and many complaints. How much of that extends beyond this message board, I cannot say. I believe the rules can be changed to such a degree that fair playoff competition can exist between the two different types of schools. However, realistically, I do not think the necessary rule changes can be passed by the IHSA membership. For example, I could accept identical success factors for both public and private schools. I do not think the public schools will accept that. That is just one example of several changes that would be required, but it will likely be difficult to find consensus on most of the necessary changes. Consequently, we must for the most part live with the existing conditions, which will continue generating many complaints, or the two parties can be separated, like the divorce of an unhappy marriage. I'm not sure which course will prevail, and I'm very cognizant my preferences are among the least important in the entire state. Still, unless substantial rule changes are enacted, I have finally reached the point where I prefer separate playoffs. I know you do not agree with that position, and I respect your right to have a contrary viewpoint.
Hey I'm glad my exhaustive ramblings got read at least 5 times even if it is the same person 😂

The data on its face is pretty clear as to the source of the performance discrepancy. I mean there just isn't much way to not understand the % trophy or % win as being primarily concentrated among a small slice of the pie, even among private schools (let alone non boundaries publics, which aren't part of it at least in football). The only real question is whether the factors (private school, selective enrollment up to 30 miles) are the primary drivers or something else, or just throw hands up and stop worrying about it at all because a difference does exist.

Q of the Week: So what's the fix?

If I was the Czar, for the two private schools classes I would just use their straight up enrollment (doubled if still single gender). Of the total amount of privates or non boundary schools, the 32 with the best records make the playoffs (same IHSA playoff points system to break time breakers) and the split is purely enrollment based. Biggest 16 in the Large bracket, the smallest 16 in the Small bracket.

Private Schools 7 - Public Schools 1. That’s a wrap!

All of these excuses is what breeds mediocrity in any pursuit a person has for their future. Can we be frank…not every person is an academic, but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t have value. You seem to be of the opinion that telling a kid to consider the trades in 8th grade is an issue…why? It’s not less then going to a college prep school, it’s just different because that students talents are different from the college prep students. I’ll be the first to admit I can’t fix my car, but I can help you recover from a number of ailments, help provide clean water, and helped decode and understand the human genome. None of that makes me any better than you, it just makes me different than you. The world needs everyone to contribute in their own way not your way or my way.
While there's nothing wrong with trades I think grade 8 may be early to track kids one way or other. There are star students who burn out and "bad students" who don't hit their stride til college. I actually know two CEOs of companies (decent size companies/orgs) who weren't star students in HS. They both played D3 sports in college though and one of them said to me that soccer is what kept him engaged throughout his college academic career. If he was a meh 8th grader would he have been put in a traded track that didn't fit him? He loves what he does and is very good at it. Maybe he'd be happy as an tradesman, but he needed time to get his true calling and to apply his gifts in an academic setting. This is particularly true of young men who often aren't exceeding as well in modern academic settings.

Q of the Week: So what's the fix?

All..... Cash is still king for the Ihsa. Now it's darn near impossible to get the Ihsa to open up their books on how much revenue they bring in (he%$ can't even find attendance figures easily or at all ) but 6 and 2 I think drops the cash considerably.

And those small school publics (1A and 2A) aren't going to like playing larger publics. I would assume the same thought for some low enrollment privates as well. Ratsy
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Champions League

With the private and public debate, a recent CCL podcast mentioned having a champions league.

This means the top 8 ranked teams by max preps (public and private) would have their own championship bracket.

This drastically would change the outcomes of the 1a thru 8a state brackets.

What do you think about this?

It was on The Varsity Voices Chicago Catholic League latest podcast. They talk about it towards the end of the podcast.
Not an original thought. This is exactly what Arizona does. They take the top 8 based on MaxPreps and call it their "Open class".

Have never heard if it's successful or well received or if teams have the choice to opt out of the open class.
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Q of the Week: So what's the fix?

So lets say the "fix" ends up being separation.
- Do we see less non-conference private/public games? Publics schools it doesn't really matter but with only so many private schools if public schools choose not to play them it could lead to a ton of out of state games.
- Do public schools see a separation as a way to keep kids in district?
- Does this just make the gap between the two even larger in the longer term?
- Do enough Admins actually care to get something passed like separation?
- Why separate when some of these school already call themselves the "3A public state champion." I used 3A as an example.
Just some thoughts.
If they separate then screw the public schools. The private school leave IHSA & start their own association & public schools can’t play privates any more in any sport sadly no more Prep Bowl then

Public 106 Private 62

I've posted several times talking about why the latter statistic is really flawed at face value.

The former statistic is a result of a pretty small minority of schools that ARE head and heals above the median competetion. However a similar albeit less severe phenomenon occurs even within boundaried, public schools.

Splitting is the lazy way out. It will be "good" for a very small portion of the population of schools in long run, I believe.
You seem to be one of the few individuals contributing to this topic who does not take a highly partisan view of the matter. You have also spent a lot of time thinking about the topic and, as you mention above, writing about specific aspects of the topic. Out of respect, I do want you to know I read your earlier, lengthy post regarding the overall playoff winning percentage between private and public schools over the last 20 or so years. In fact, I have probably read it about five times now, and have given it considerable thought each time. It is a commendable piece of work given the apparent amount of time you spent thinking about the topic. I did not want you to think your post has been ignored by everyone.

Nevertheless, I must admit I come away each time (after having read and thought about your post) unconvinced that you have arrived at the correct conclusion. I apologize for the disservice I am about to do you, but I simply do not have the energy to engage in a lengthy debate about why that is my view. I foresee doing the discussion justice would require many posts back and forth between us, and I simply don't want to begin that process. My youth is in the distant past and even my middle-age years are becoming a fading memory. Lengthy debates are taxing.

I will say, moving to the broader topic, I do not think you and I are far apart in our views. Ideally, we both seem to believe keeping the private schools and the public schools in the same playoffs is best. We may, though, disagree on how realistic that is. It has been demonstrated the status quo creates much dissatisfaction and many complaints. How much of that extends beyond this message board, I cannot say. I believe the rules can be changed to such a degree that fair playoff competition can exist between the two different types of schools. However, realistically, I do not think the necessary rule changes can be passed by the IHSA membership. For example, I could accept identical success factors for both public and private schools. I do not think the public schools will accept that. That is just one example of several changes that would be required, but it will likely be difficult to find consensus on most of the necessary changes. Consequently, we must for the most part live with the existing conditions, which will continue generating many complaints, or the two parties can be separated, like the divorce of an unhappy marriage. I'm not sure which course will prevail, and I'm very cognizant my preferences are among the least important in the entire state. Still, unless substantial rule changes are enacted, I have finally reached the point where I prefer separate playoffs. I know you do not agree with that position, and I respect your right to have a contrary viewpoint.

Champions League

With the private and public debate, a recent CCL podcast mentioned having a champions league.

This means the top 8 ranked teams by max preps (public and private) would have their own championship bracket.

This drastically would change the outcomes of the 1a thru 8a state brackets.

What do you think about this?

It was on The Varsity Voices Chicago Catholic League latest podcast. They talk about it towards the end of the podcast.

I think the public school whining would continue regardless. And what would happen when private schools spank public schools producing all private school semifinals or finals?

Also, an eight-team champions class would make for a three-game post season for the titleists. Once the champions league crowns a champion, all the other classes would have two more weeks of football before they crown a title. Not so sure I like that one.

Private Schools 7 - Public Schools 1. That’s a wrap!

Never said anything wrong with the trades. I don't think our society honors these individuals as much as we should. My dad was a tradesman. I asked our local high school to do a signing day for the trade unions (I live in a rural area that has lots of farmers and tradesmen) instead of just the athletes signing day. But, you are going to tell an 8th grader that they have to go to a vocational school because they did not get accepted by the high schools they wanted to go to?
Also, what happens when your local public school is at max capacity and you have not been accepted anywhere you applied? If they must hold spots for all possible local students, how would they plan for staffing, schedules, budgets, etc.? This would need to be known well in advance. Schools could face large swings in population #s that would be a staffing nightmare. There is already a teacher shortage, how much worse do we want it to get?
All of these excuses is what breeds mediocrity in any pursuit a person has for their future. Can we be frank…not every person is an academic, but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t have value. You seem to be of the opinion that telling a kid to consider the trades in 8th grade is an issue…why? It’s not less then going to a college prep school, it’s just different because that students talents are different from the college prep students. I’ll be the first to admit I can’t fix my car, but I can help you recover from a number of ailments, help provide clean water, and helped decode and understand the human genome. None of that makes me any better than you, it just makes me different than you. The world needs everyone to contribute in their own way not your way or my way.
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