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Multiplier/waiver

doctor_d
ramblinman said:
This raging public and private debate is happening for one reason and one reason only and that is because public schools can't stand losing to public schools in the playoffs. I would argue that they can't accept ANY playoff losses to private schools. Given that this 2024 chapter of the decades long debate seems to be particularly focused on taking additional steps to make sure that public schools lose fewer playoff games against private schools, I put something out there as food for thought.
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I totally agree that there are people that can’t stomach the idea of publics losing to privates, but I assure you, that is not where I am coming from. My biggest emotional reaction was due to the fact that every single game on Friday was a running clock. One of my favorite days of the year, and every game was a dud. There are other factors to why that happened, but PvP and the waiver is the thing that got the most traction. Casual fans overlook the fact that the 2A, 3A and 4A champs were heavily tested by public schools in earlier rounds.
In light of the recent events, I feel like there could be a groundswell towards separation. I personally would not want to see that, although then you’d get your NIPL.
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Private Schools 7 - Public Schools 1. That’s a wrap!

Snetsrak61
It's not about elevating one career choice as inherently better than another from like a moral or something standpoint. It's about people getting a chance to improve their financial well-being long . Post secondary education still does really well at that (if you complete it - there's a real crises of infldebted folks who never even got the degree because they got tracked into something they ultimately shouldn't have).

So it's true college isnt for everyone and it isn't strictly about aptitude (especially how we measure it in the past 25 ish years). Early tracking vocation seems to no better than a one sized first all college prep world view. Teach the whole person and don't try and determine their career earnings path at 14.

If someone is just happy in a lower paying field, fine too. But it's a choice, not telling Jr at 14 that his future earnings is determinitive. I mean there are certainly cases where that's obvious and we should be realistic, but not as a general rule for most general population. That gem is still being polished and is unclear, as you said.
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Private Schools 7 - Public Schools 1. That’s a wrap!

Snetsrak61
jwarigaku said:
Snets,

You keep trying to make it sound like the Trades are only for people who can’t achieve at a college prep “level” of schooling.
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I've not at any single point claimed a trades person is synonymous with a lower intellect or anything of the sort. Now you are just launching into made up reasons to... lecture I guess?
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Public School Advantages

Snetsrak61
By the way I would say each of Prairie Ridge, Kankakee, and Naz (at minimum) all probably should be in 6A for forseesable future. They've all been at that level naturally by enrollment at some point in recent history and fairly small enrollment changes and year to year variance have dropped them to 5A. But all recently have competed well in 6A.

I think absent severe enrollement changes the goal should be to stabilize classifications over as long of periods as possible. Should be slow moving and less subject to variance/luck for the border teams, especially if they've proved any recent level of competetiveness in the higher class.
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Private Schools 7 - Public Schools 1. That’s a wrap!

jwarigaku
Snetsrak61 said:
Fwiw I asked my Brother in Law who is a Professor of Economics about this. He studies a lot about educational outcomes but doesn't specialize in Vocational programs (he studies more about closing educational gaps for adults who didn't obtain HS diplomas).

So he pointed me to another PhD to read up on it, which I'm just now browsing. The early browsings seem do indicate a lot of contextual caveats about any one course or the other. But it seems likely that vocational skills are much more pronounced vis a vie being an alternative to those who fail to complete secondary education (not post-secondary). And the impacts are apparently definitive about short and medium outcomes but less clear on long term. There's also gender gaps in the data outcomes (more obvious benefits for males than females).

Which is all to say it's its own category of debate separate from the original voucher point.

Just from my own experience I was lucky enough to complete my entire pre secondary education right before NCLB wracked the way we teach kids by teaching to the test and minimum standards and cutting electives. But that was coursework that included full credit hours for basic electives like gym and music as well as vocational skills like shop, home ec, and computers (a vocational skill sorely lacking from today's non STEM grads in my experience). My honors/CP coursework at Naz probably overprepared me for college honestly. In my experience, vocational skills are part of a well rounded education and probably can be through secondary even though I switched to CP. I don't think we should exclusivelt track kids into one or the other in most cases.

By the way, that mixed vocational setting I had in elementary through 8th was a stable, but very blue collar neighborhood and a single school, tiny district. The investments to get a well rounded educational setting at a local public school are not so insurmountable as to be scrapped for a voucher system. It's just basic priorities.
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Snets,

You keep trying to make it sound like the Trades are only for people who can’t achieve at a college prep “level” of schooling. I know plenty of people in the trades that could get that illustrious PhD in EE, but find happiness in being an electrician. I think you need to stop consulting Academics and placing their opinions on high and look at the entire world around you. While I have a bunch of letters behind my name, more often then not BS = Bull$hit, MS = More $hit, and PhD = Piled higher and deeper. Kids need opportunities, parenting, and people around them to help with advise and mentoring these young adults. Not people telling them to find their own ways and everything will come up roses. Life is a balancing act and I want to see Everyone have equal opportunities! These kids stuck in failing schools with teachers only collectIng paychecks and nothing more need to be lifted up. Competition for the teacher to keep their school open and retain their job needs to be put in place, that’s the way most jobs work, its produce or perish, not publish or perish!
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Multiplier/waiver

Snetsrak61
corey90 said:
I think everyone might over thinking this. Why not just tweak the multiplier for privates and change the success factor to include both Privates and Publics. Seems like this would level the playing field. The current system isn’t that far off. I agree with privates when it comes to the success factor. Publics should also have to move up a class if they win State 2 years in a row.
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The current version of both waiver and SF need to at the very least be scrapped and returned to the old versions. At that point some level of sanity would be back. Expand SF to publics ? I mean might as well, but it's still gonna suck as a measuring tool.

I'll also just refer back to football enrollment and my earlier post there. I don't know if it's a casual effect or just correlative, but it seemed to me to clearly do a good job right-sizing both traditional public and private schools into more competetive/larger classes (with some exceptions of course, but I think basic tweaks you could significantly close gaps - never gonna close all).
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Public School Advantages

Snetsrak61
LHSTigers94 said:
The only way people believe there is a talent walking the hallways is simply because they have the ability to go and acquire talent. If you didn’t have the ability to approach the best player on a team of 30 and you had to take the bottom three because that is who lives in your district, then you would understand what’s in the hallways.

If it were so simple, Auburn would have made it to a state game by now considering how the same coach had Boylan rocking. Isn’t Evanston coach a successful private school coach? Why haven’t Evanston made noise in football. I’m sure that coach created the same culture to landed success.

Let’s be clear, there is nothing wrong with being successful and I welcome it. I just don’t agree with down playing the advantage to make yourself feel better about it. Everyone should be proud of winning as it takes a lot to capture a State Title regardless of class. That’s not the issue. Trying to pretend like the field is level in all cases is the problem.

If you only have one game the challenges you throughout your championship run, chances are you should be competing in a higher class. That doesn’t mean you want win. It just mean games will be more competitive and that’s not due to coaching and culture.
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The best team in ever class, every year often will not be challenged much. If they are it ls usually once or twice and because of the objective/basic seeding metrics it may happen in finals or may be quarters. This is often true of the best, public or private, year in and year out. By this measurement the winner is almost never in the right class. They almost always should have been catapulted up a class until what? They win state by a smaller margin? Don't win state? Get routed? Results basis is silly. There's never a definition that can make sense that isn't effectively punitive. That's whether it's private only or includes publics.

This issue is often not even about state Champs either. York has 1 2nd place trophy in the past 3 years and 2 other semis appearances because they took the steps and had some talent. That's awesome to me. I don't think they failed at anything, but maybe that's not enough to some?

By the way, Naz did pretty decent on a close margin metric their first title of this 3 peat. So right class or wrong class? And even their second title run, they played 1 route. On a worse day they probably lose to Praire Ridge or Carmel in 23 or Sycamore in 22, and definitely a coin flip to Peoria in 22. Or to St Francis 2x (who they lost to in regular season 2x). Naz, St Francis, Sycamore, Praire Ridge (who was 6A 1 of the past 3 years and made finals)... All have played each other close in 5A north. Could throw in Kanakee who was 5A N one of those recent years and has been splitting regular season series with Naz in one score games for each of the past 3 years. All these schools should get classed out of 5A right? Pretty much everyone they play who isn't each other they consistently wipe in recent years and each other they all play close.
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Bears

corey90
4Afan said:
Where did you see any serious mention of Belichick? Forget that he's had 2 interviews with UNC I'm not interested in a coach who will be 73 at the start of next season.

No one has mentioned Gruden either. Love the guy but he's been banished from the NFL.
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I am not disagreeing with you A4. Gruden threw his name in the hat. Goggle it. I am not saying the Bears are interested or interviewing. He just said it would be very interested in the Bears head coaching position.
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Bears

4
corey90 said:
My thoughts about these three.

I really like Freeman but he has zero experience in the NFL. Done well at Notre Damn . He is young 38, has ties to the Bears when the drafted him in the 5th round. Again no NFL experience coaching any position.
Less money. Love Notre Damn may not want to leave.

Belichick would fix the defense pronto and wouldn’t make bonehead decisions in the game. He wouldn’t take shit from the players. None of that Tom foolery arguing with fans and the stupid penalties. He would want full control. I am not convinced he be good for our offense. I don’t think Owners would give him full control. Big money

John Gruden seems like a wild card but could be a good fit. Not totally convinced but he is a fiery guy that doesn’t take crap and understands offensive schemes and QBs. I could see Chicago fans liking him. He is interesting but not sure. Would want money but not as much as Belichick would want.
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Where did you see any serious mention of Belichick? Forget that he's had 2 interviews with UNC I'm not interested in a coach who will be 73 at the start of next season.

No one has mentioned Gruden either. Love the guy but he's been banished from the NFL.
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Area Coaches & Players to watch in the College postseason

penlight
Likely as enjoyable for others around the Joliet area as it was for me watching 3 native sons on the field last night in the Army vs. Tulane game.
Jeff Monken (JT Central -- Army HC), Patrick Durkin (Joliet Catholic -- Tulane Kicker) & Jabril Williams (Joliet Catholic -- Army DB & Punt Receiving/Block team).
Who else from Illinois should we keep our eyes peeled for as the post season rolls along?
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Multiplier/waiver

doctor_d
corey90 said:
I think everyone might over thinking this. Why not just tweak the multiplier for privates and change the success factor to include both Privates and Publics. Seems like this would level the playing field. The current system isn’t that far off. I agree with privates when it comes to the success factor. Publics should also have to move up a class if they win State 2 years in a row.
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Sure, but specifically how would you tweak the multiplier? Change the number? Change the waiver requirements? I’m pretty leery about an 8A fan’s take on this subject, because that class has the least impact from the multiplier/waiver issue.
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Multiplier/waiver

corey90
doctor_d said:
Why not start another thread?

I’ve been a proponent of the multiplier system. It’s certainly better than total separation.

How opposed would CCL/ESCC people be to a change in the waiver requirements?

What if the waiver had nothing to do with regular season results?

The 2A/3A/4A level teams in the CCL typically have a hard time achieving 5 or 6 wins to qualify, but due to the severe level of competition they face, that is not indicative of a lack of success in a particular classification, especially when you’re talking at the lower end of the spectrum in 3A or 2A.

Case study of IC. They won 3A three out of the past 4 times they were assigned there. Byron knocked them out in 2021. They’ve won 4A once, and the other two times they were assigned to 4A, they were eliminated in the quarterfinals.

Since 2016
2016 3A champions 👑
2017 3A champions 👑
2018 4A champions 👑
2019 4A quarterfinalists (lost to champs)
2020 —-COVID—-
2021 3A semifinalists (lost to champs)
2022 3A champions 👑
2023 4A quarterfinalists (lost to runner up)
2024 DNQ at 4-5 with losses to two 8A teams, the 5A champion, a 7A semifinalist and a 5A semifinalist.

Nothing about their resume says that they aren’t championship level (or at the very least contenders) at the 3A or 4A level, but unless they take it upon themselves to petition up they will be 2A for the next two years.

Granted: if they make it.
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I think everyone might over thinking this. Why not just tweak the multiplier for privates and change the success factor to include both Privates and Publics. Seems like this would level the playing field. The current system isn’t that far off. I agree with privates when it comes to the success factor. Publics should also have to move up a class if they win State 2 years in a row.
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Bears

corey90
My thoughts about these three.

I really like Freeman but he has zero experience in the NFL. Done well at Notre Damn . He is young 38, has ties to the Bears when the drafted him in the 5th round. Again no NFL experience coaching any position.
Less money. Love Notre Damn may not want to leave.

Belichick would fix the defense pronto and wouldn’t make bonehead decisions in the game. He wouldn’t take shit from the players. None of that Tom foolery arguing with fans and the stupid penalties. He would want full control. I am not convinced he be good for our offense. I don’t think Owners would give him full control. Big money

John Gruden seems like a wild card but could be a good fit. Not totally convinced but he is a fiery guy that doesn’t take crap and understands offensive schemes and QBs. I could see Chicago fans liking him. He is interesting but not sure. Would want money but not as much as Belichick would want.
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