The 4A Map Just Got REAL Interesting

[cigaros]

I cannot help but remember a column Edgy wrote back when the first of the two Gabe Green teams shocked the North by knocking off mighty Montini at DeKalb. I can't find it now but he started by mentioning that "everybody's wisdom" on his board that SHG couldn't possibly defeat the invincible maroon and gold - and then adding ,'everybody but him'. He went on to say that only someone who didn't fully understand IHSA football would ever dismiss a Ken Leonard team. This year reminds me of then. Most of the posters here are Northern Illimois fans who seem to think that every SHG and Rochester championship was blind luck by a bunch of country rubes. There are a dozen reasons given (JCA, last year, weak conference, etc,) from people who didn't see Glenwood and Rochester trying to cover five fast receivers, 2-3 of them running wide open, with 3 or 4 HS D-backs. It's as bad as the assumption that a Rochester team that the Cyclones running clocked has gotten better in seven games but that somehow SHG hasn't.

Nothing changes. One way or another, we'll see.

I find it interesting how the north forget that Rochester has gotten “lucky “ 8 times since 2010. And the deafening silence on the boards which existed from the CCL faithful as a 7A St. Rita was trounced by a 4A Rochester in the rain soaked freezing 5A final as the Rockets PASSED for over 300 yards and held the Ohio State bound Caleb Brown to 100 yards below his per game average (a mere 40-50 yards for the game).

To be very blunt, only the fans unassociated with the schools want an SHG vs Rochester rematch this year. Both teams do not want to be the reason a Leonard coached team goes home before the final.

 

[rocketnation]

I cannot help but remember a column Edgy wrote back when the first of the two Gabe Green teams shocked the North by knocking off mighty Montini at DeKalb. I can't find it now but he started by mentioning that "everybody's wisdom" on his board that SHG couldn't possibly defeat the invincible maroon and gold - and then adding ,'everybody but him'. He went on to say that only someone who didn't fully understand IHSA football would ever dismiss a Ken Leonard team. This year reminds me of then. Most of the posters here are Northern Illimois fans who seem to think that every SHG and Rochester championship was blind luck by a bunch of country rubes. There are a dozen reasons given (JCA, last year, weak conference, etc,) from people who didn't see Glenwood and Rochester trying to cover five fast receivers, 2-3 of them running wide open, with 3 or 4 HS D-backs. It's as bad as the assumption that a Rochester team that the Cyclones running clocked has gotten better in seven games but that somehow SHG hasn't.

Nothing changes. One way or another, we'll see.

Has anyone ever seen the Best of Times with Kurt Russell and Robin Williams? There’s a scene I really enjoy where Williams is trying to goad their town and QB Russell in particular into replaying a football game with their arch rival 15 years later. He paints all the disastrous scores of past losses to the rival team around town. An angry Russell says” Wait a second, they didn’t beat us 49-7 that year, it was 42-7!”

I feel like that now. SHG hammered Rochester Week 1 62-27, no doubt, but it was not a running clock.

SHG and Rochester have both improved from Week 1. I just think SHG was much closer to achieving their best possible on-field performance at that point than Rochester.

 

[cigaros]

There is a positive to SHG going 3A.

Would love to see IC vs SHG in the 3A title as opposed whoever else would come out of the south in 3A that IC would clock.

And it would provide a potential of back to back LEONARD coached teams in the final. What a way for son to see father go off into the sunset and father to see the tradition continue.

 

[The_Oldfan]

Has anyone ever seen the Best of Times with Kurt Russell and Robin Williams? There’s a scene I really enjoy where Williams is trying to goad their town and QB Russell in particular into replaying a football game with their arch rival 15 years later. He paints all the disastrous scores of past losses to the rival team around town. An angry Russell says” Wait a second, they didn’t beat us 49-7 that year, it was 42-7!”

I feel like that now. SHG hammered Rochester Week 1 62-27, no doubt, but it was not a running clock.

SHG and Rochester have both improved from Week 1. I just think SHG was much closer to achieving their best on-field performance at that point than Rochester.

If so, my apologies. I was certain Rochester scored last

 

[doctor_d]

IMO, ICCP is as good as any of the top 4a teams in the north and would give SHG a game.

I won’t completely discount IC in this hypothetical matchup, but it would seem like SHG would still be a clear favorite, as many of the SHG faithful are counting this version as one of their best ever. If true, that’s saying something. IC has won 4A previously and their 2016 3A team could have done really well up two or maybe even three classes, they were that good. I know IC wouldn’t be rattled by the name on the opposite jersey.

 

[rocketnation]

If so, my apologies. I was certain Rochester scored last

No problem. There was no doubt it was a clear and convincing SHG win.

 

[The_Oldfan]

I won’t completely discount IC in this hypothetical matchup, but it would seem like SHG would still be a clear favorite, as many of the SHG faithful are counting this version as one of their best ever. If true, that’s saying something. IC has won 4A previously and their 2016 3A team could have done really well up two or maybe even three classes, they were that good. I know IC wouldn’t be rattled by the name on the opposite jersey.

The good teams never are. The fans might "know" better. The coaches, maybe, but never say it. The kids wouldn't be in a championship if they didn't think they were good enough to be there.

 

[stl705]

I don’t mean this in a bad way, but anyone able to provide a quick scouting report on SHG and it’s top talent? Ie return 4 or 5 good OL, stud SR QB? Is the O better than the D? P5 D1 talent?

I just don’t have knowledge of their current team or program so just curious what makes this the best SHG team in some time as it sounds like I’m reading from posters.

 

[USD24]

I find it interesting how the north forget that Rochester has gotten “lucky “ 8 times since 2010. And the deafening silence on the boards which existed from the CCL faithful as a 7A St. Rita was trounced by a 4A Rochester in the rain soaked freezing 5A final as the Rockets PASSED for over 300 yards and held the Ohio State bound Caleb Brown to 100 yards below his per game average (a mere 40-50 yards for the game).

To be very blunt, only the fans unassociated with the schools want an SHG vs Rochester rematch this year. Both teams do not want to be the reason a Leonard coached team goes home before the final.

Why was a 7a team playing a 4a team in the 5a final?

 

[rocketnation]

I don’t mean this in a bad way, but anyone able to provide a quick scouting report on SHG and it’s top talent? Ie return 4 or 5 good OL, stud SR QB? Is the O better than the D? P5 D1 talent?

I just don’t have knowledge of their current team or program so just curious what makes this the best SHG team in some time as it sounds like I’m reading from posters.

15 returning starters from last year’s 4A runner-up.

2-year starting QB with 75% completion rate, 25 total TD’s. More of a running threat this year than last, an extra problem for defenses.

A rotation of 7 different WR’s with a great combination of speed, hands, and the ability to dominate physically. 2 have started for 3 years. Almost impossible to cover everyone.

2 fast RB’s who will hurt you if you focus too much on covering the pass.

An offense line that is not huge but protects the QB well.

An improved defense from last year. Not dominating but capable of holding good teams to 21 points or less. Very good at forcing turnovers, particularly the secondary.

Excellent kicking game and multiple threats on kick returns.

 

[rocketnation]

Why was a 7a team playing a 4a team in the 5a final?

Rochester has been borderline 4A-5A several times. They were the smallest 5A team in 2019 after being ranked in 4A all season.

I believe St Rita traditionally had been a 7A school but had dropped in 2019 due to a combination of enrollment loss and not having the success factor imposed.

 

[The_Oldfan]

15 returning starters from last year’s 4A runner-up.

2-year starting QB with 75% completion rate, 25 total TD’s. More of a running threat this year than last, an extra problem for defenses.

A rotation of 7 different WR’s with a great combination of speed, hands, and the ability to dominate physically. 2 have started for 3 years. Almost impossible to cover everyone.

2 fast RB’s who will hurt you if you focus too much on covering the pass.

An offense line that is not huge but protects the QB well.

An improved defense from last year. Not dominating but capable of holding good teams to 21 points or less. Very good at forcing turnovers, particularly the secondary.

Excellent kicking game and multiple threats on kick returns.

To add just a little, a returning 2000 yd QB with s 75%+ passing accuracy and <I believe> only 2 INTs on 2 years. All state as a Junior

If I'm reading MaxPreps correctly the #1 place kicker in the State with the range to put his kickoffs in or by the end zone.

Line not as big as some but with excellent speed and b quickness on both sides.

1 D1 commit (Air Force) WR/DB.

 

[4hhsbulldogs]

NFHS for the stream, they have a pretty good crew that run it. I think they’ll run for as many yards as they’d like against Mascoutah tonight, but I am interested in how well they contain Mascoutah’s big play offense.

56-0. Highland allowed a few red zone possessions for Mascoutah but never let them in the end zone.

@The_Oldfan i think you are typically correct in saying MVC and S7 can’t hang with CS8. The Highland team this year is a good team though. Outscored the MVC opponents this year 266 - 29.

 

[The_Oldfan]

Yeah. I watched from mid 2nd qtr to end of third quarter before looking for a closer contest

The Bulldogs looked great. Love those black uniforms. My.only question is how good Mascoutah is. .Rochester blew.out a playoff bound Jacksonville team 48-0

 

[cigaros]

I won’t completely discount IC in this hypothetical matchup, but it would seem like SHG would still be a clear favorite, as many of the SHG faithful are counting this version as one of their best ever. If true, that’s saying something. IC has won 4A previously and their 2016 3A team could have done really well up two or maybe even three classes, they were that good. I know IC wouldn’t be rattled by the name on the opposite jersey.

Many in Rochester were hoping the 2016 IC team would have been in 4A. The Rockets of 2016 handled a stacked Althoff and then beat a 13-0 Johnsburg in the final. The Cox twins (SIU), Nic Baker (SIU), Collin Stallworth (UIS), Matt Wike et al would have run roughshod over IC Catholic that year. They repeated in 2017 as they dominated a Highland led by Sam LaPorta (Iowa) and then a Morris (previously 5A) in the final.

 

[cigaros]

Why was a 7a team playing a 4a team in the 5a final?

The CPS strike pushed Rochester up 4A to 5A. St. Rita had a sub par 2018 which pushed them down from their typical 7A. Check their prior decade of playoffs, 7A, and the fact they were in the 7A final last year. Enrollments don't change that quickly in 2 years.

 

[doctor_d]

Many in Rochester were hoping the 2016 IC team would have been in 4A. The Rockets of 2016 handled a stacked Althoff and then beat a 13-0 Johnsburg in the final. The Cox twins (SIU), Nic Baker (SIU), Collin Stallworth (UIS), Matt Wike et al would have run roughshod over IC Catholic that year. They repeated in 2017 as they dominated a Highland led by Sam LaPorta (Iowa) and then a Morris (previously 5A) in the final.

There's no way of knowing now, but if anyone in the mid classes would've hung with Rochester in 2016 it was IC. IC was much more dynamic and considerably better than Johnsburg...taking nothing away from the Skyhawks. That IC team was just phenomenal. They had D1 kids at the skill positions and a mean and aggressive line. The RB went to NIU. The QB was almost as fast and could drop dimes. One of the WR/LB went to Purdue. His twin played D1 also. They walloped a much better than average for the program Wilmington team in the quarterfinals. Wilmington had no chance and barely survived suffering a running clock. They were the best 3A team I've ever seen, and they beat a 6A semifinalist that year. I think 2016 IC vs Rochester would have been a hell of a matchup.

 

[DMurph11]

There's no way of knowing now, but if anyone in the mid classes would've hung with Rochester in 2016 it was IC. IC was much more dynamic and considerably better than Johnsburg...taking nothing away from the Skyhawks. That IC team was just phenomenal. They had D1 kids at the skill positions and a mean and aggressive line. The RB went to NIU. The QB was almost as fast and could drop dimes. One of the WR/LB went to Purdue. His twin played D1 also. They walloped a much better than average for the program Wilmington team in the quarterfinals. Wilmington had no chance and barely survived suffering a running clock. They were the best 3A team I've ever seen, and they beat a 6A semifinalist that year. I think 2016 IC vs Rochester would have been a hell of a matchup.

Agree with this take. No one besides the 7A/8A champ that year would have had a chance of "running roughshed" over that IC team. They were phenomenal.

 

[Geneseo Football]

Are you guys favored? It appears to be a toss up to me, but it's at Rock Island. Both teams are currently 4-3, with tough week 9 games. One will qualify for the playoffs with the win tomorrow. The other will have to win their week 9 game or wait to see if 4-5 teams get in. If 4-5 teams happen to be needed to fill the 256-team field, there is still the issue of having enough playoff points. I estimate the final playoff-point total for both Rock Island and Geneseo being in the low 40s. Not sure that gets a 4-5 team in. Anyway, with the Maple Leafs' tradition, it would be nice if they could make it.

Geneseo pulls it off with a 36-22 win over Rock Island

 

[MalleusMaleficarum]

Geneseo pulls it off with a 36-22 win over Rock Island

Like I said, it would be nice if the Maple Leafs could get in. Change that to "are in". That is an impressive win on the road. Indeed a happy night for the Green Machine.

 

[cigaros]

Like I said, it would be nice if the Maple Leafs could get in. Change that to "are in". That is an impressive win on the road. Indeed a happy night for the Green Machine.

I see Geneseo getting in at 5-4

 

[mship1975]

I echo this as long as SHG is 4A. I see a lot of crystal ball types have them dropping down, which would be a shame IMHO. There are some really great 3A teams but SHG as 4A favorites would probably be too tall a task for anyone in 3A

williamsville people are not happy. lets just say that. lol

 

[mship1975]

I'm anxious to see what St. Francis does in their next two games against Riverside Brookfield and IC. JCA is still JCA. Providence could make some noise in their bracket. However, from what I have seen thus far, I agree that Richmond Burton (RB) is the best in 4A. Morris losing as they did to RB deserves any doubts people may have about them coming out of the north bracket.

I don't understand all this talk about SHG being a "tall task" for anyone to beat ,and having "the best odds of winning it all". People, they play in a mediocre conference and all the teams you mention in the north bracket have a tougher regular season schedule than them. The CS8 this year has some absolutely horrendous teams!! At present, the bottom three (remember, we have completed 7 weeks of play) have a grand, combined total of (wait for it) 2 wins!!!!!!!!!!

Let us look at the north teams you list and their current playoff points: RB (36), St. Francis (32), JC (36), PC (40), and Morris (39). SHG has (drum roll, please) 28. With Rochester on the horizon, and a currently-listed, undefeated number 1 seeded Carterville n the south, I would say the Cyclones have some work to do before even thinking about Champaign.

No insult meant by my tone, Hillman, but I have followed the Cyclones and the CS8 this year, and the quality of this conference does not speak well for SHG, even if their record does!

This may be Kens best offensive team EVER and thats saying something. Their defense is not bad either. They would stram roll 3a south imo but staying in 4a would be more fun outside of rochester. The big thing forcing teams down according to interview 1450 had with soucie is the public league formulas and conf realighnment . by the way SHG will be in 3a with enrollment soon enough. actual enrollment is around 500

 

[The_Oldfan]

Geneseo pulls it off with a 36-22 win over Rock Island

Welcome to the dance

 

[CCHS-Fan]

Congrats to Geneseo!

 

[penlight]

Congrats to Geneseo!

Somewhere up there Robert Dean Reade is smiling!

 

[crusader_of_90]

Yeah. I watched from mid 2nd qtr to end of third quarter before looking for a closer contest

The Bulldogs looked great. Love those black uniforms. My.only question is how good Mascoutah is. .Rochester blew.out a playoff bound Jacksonville team 48-0

Mascoutah was better in July than they are now.

 

[cigaros]

Agree with this take. No one besides the 7A/8A champ that year would have had a chance of "running roughshed" over that IC team. They were phenomenal.

Well, that Rochester team was selected as the Team of the Year, so there's that. You can see several of them playing today at 2:00 PM. Some will be playing for SIU. The younger guys who took their spots after graduation will be playing WIU.

 

[MalleusMaleficarum]

williamsville people are not happy. lets just say that. lol

Next weekend will definitely be interesting. Rumor has it that the final field of 256 will be finalized Saturday and that we will actually know into which class each team will fall. Go figure!!

 

[cigaros]

This may be Kens best offensive team EVER and thats saying something. Their defense is not bad either. They would stram roll 3a south imo but staying in 4a would be more fun outside of rochester. The big thing forcing teams down according to interview 1450 had with soucie is the public league formulas and conf realighnment . by the way SHG will be in 3a with enrollment soon enough. actual enrollment is around 500

If their actual enrollment is 500, why does the IHSA have them at 607? Those numbers are reported to the IHSA by the school per the actual reports given to the ISBE. And no, SHG, did not have 100 less students enroll. So, can anyone explain why they would report 20% more than what they self report to the ISBE?

 

[DMurph11]

Well, that Rochester team was selected as the Team of the Year, so there's that. You can see several of them playing today at 2:00 PM. Some will be playing for SIU. The younger guys who took their spots after graduation will be playing WIU.

I’m not saying Rochester couldn’t beat them…it would likely have a been a pick ‘em line. I’m just saying you used the term “running roughshod”…IC had several guys playing in FBS games the years that followed.

and I promise you, as an SF guy, it breaks my heart to say anything nice about IC.

 

[rocketnation]

I’m not saying Rochester couldn’t beat them…it would likely have a been a pick ‘em line. I’m just saying you used the term “running roughshod”…IC had several guys playing in FBS games the years that followed.

and I promise you, as an SF guy, it breaks my heart to say anything nice about IC.

I felt the same way when continuing to argue how good the 2019 Chatham team was after they had been smoked by East St Louis in the semifinals.

 

[The_Oldfan]

If their actual enrollment is 500, why does the IHSA have them at 607? Those numbers are reported to the IHSA by the school per the actual reports given to the ISBE. And no, SHG, did not have 100 less students enroll. So, can anyone explain why they would report 20% more than what they self report to the ISBE?

The enrollment figures from IHSA are on a two year cycle. Cornerrat has looked at the rule closer and maybe make sense of it ,- if anyone could. Thus was the second year of the cycle and if I understsnd it in any way at all consists of the average of last year and the year before.

Only IHSA. Why not do it intelligently and simply require the AD to report ACTUAL enrollment at the end of the first week of classes? All these multipliers and other gimmicks to try to create artificial parity give me a headache

 

[sporthog9er]

Just here to say I'm astonished this thread is now 4 pages long.

 

[iamgroot]

The enrollment figures from IHSA are on a two year cycle. Cornerrat has looked at the rule closer and maybe make sense of it ,- if anyone could. Thus was the second year of the cycle and if I understsnd it in any way at all consists of the average of last year and the year before.

Only IHSA. Why not do it intelligently and simply require the AD to report ACTUAL enrollment at the end of the first week of classes? All these multipliers and other gimmicks to try to create artificial parity give me a headache

It's a two year cycle. We are in year 2. I think some of the rational is to provide stability in where schools are. Enrollments can dip/peak year to year due to random birth trends, etc. that rather than have a school jump or down each year only to go back the next seems a bit much.

As to using numbers as reported by AD versus ISBE: There's an incentive for the AD to underreport to keep themselves lower while the ISBE number has a tendency to be higher as that goes into attendence figures which then feeds into finances and how they get paid. In addition, the AD won't have the numbers directly, they'll be asking their registrar or similar position for the number, so why not just use that person's data already? The ADs have enough to do already.

 

[cigaros]

Just here to say I'm astonished this thread is now 4 pages long.

Thats a good thing. People are interested in good football across classes. It is still very close as to whether Morris goes to the Southern bracket after week 8 with Spring Valley re-entering the mix. After Week 8, I see the following Semis

Rochester vs SHG
Morris vs JCA

SHG beats JCA in the final

 

[circletrack32]

Don’t forget about geneseo entering the mix with their win and a winnable week 9 game

 

[cigaros]

Don’t forget about geneseo entering the mix with their win and a winnable week 9 game

Geneseo will get about an eleven or twelve seed today. We shall see on Saturday

 

[jobare56]

Thats a good thing. People are interested in good football across classes. It is still very close as to whether Morris goes to the Southern bracket after week 8 with Spring Valley re-entering the mix. After Week 8, I see the following Semis

Rochester vs SHG
Morris vs JCA

SHG beats JCA in the final

No love for Richmond Burton?

 

[SiuCubFan8]

No love for Richmond Burton?

They are a problem.