Predictions for flyers vs Loyola
- Thread starter Swc1919
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I'll just say I expect half as many points total between both teams as last year's week 1 vs MC.
To quote Clubber Lang……Prediction? Pain. 😀. Honestly it’s the most disciplined team I’ve ever seen vs the most undisciplined teams I’ve ever seen. I think ESL had in teens in the amount of flags thrown at them vs. MC last year. This will play a part if it happens again. LA 28-19 (2 missed XP’s for ESL)
I don’t know my friend, I don’t think ESL is kicking any Field Goals! 😀. I don’t think it’s part of their playbook
I love how people like to pile on ESL for penalties lol 😂 They sure do win a LOT of games and big trophies for being sooooo undisciplined 🏆
obtw there Clubber Lang .... Sunkett doesn't duck anyone. Hands down one of the best coaches and 5A programs in the state. The MC's and Loyola's are never the toughest team on their schedule and they play up every year no problem.
obtw there Clubber Lang .... Sunkett doesn't duck anyone. Hands down one of the best coaches and 5A programs in the state. The MC's and Loyola's are never the toughest team on their schedule and they play up every year no problem.
I didn’t say they weren’t good, just nutritious for penalties and it hurts them, especially when MC beat them last year…..and in 2018…..and in 2017.
28-21 Loyola in a tight one. I expect Loyola to run the ball and try to keep the ball out of ESL’s hands as much as possible
Eastside is going to shock the world on Saturday night 💪
DePaul Prep beating Loyola in week 5 would shock the world, ESL beating them is a minor upset.Eastside is going to shock the world on Saturday night 💪
when I watch ESL games it always shocks me at how hard they hit on every single play.
If there is a “bend” that exists on a team, ESL is going to find it
It will disappoint me to have to purchase NFS Network so early in the season to watch this game
If there is a “bend” that exists on a team, ESL is going to find it
It will disappoint me to have to purchase NFS Network so early in the season to watch this game
In a track meet I got ESL, in this game I got LA , I will say ESL is crazy fast. Week 0 against SHG wasn't fair! they beat the breaks off them penalties or not 40-42 LA , A missed 2pt conversion will hurt the flyers.
are you a prophet? Lol I like you style and it’s looking to be true.Eastside is going to shock the world on Saturday night 💪
I love to watch ESL. What a great program. However, some of the discipline issues appear to be a fair criticism. I mean, why else would they have such trouble with Cary Groves wishbone/veer attack when ESL has 3x the talent. Because they lack discipline. I can’t comment on last year‘s state title game because I missed it. However, I was in attendance a few years ago against Cary Grove in DeKalb and there’s no question penalties cost them the trophy.
Tough to criticize after that performance Saturday though… Wow. It will be a decade before Loyola gets beat down like that again. Can’t wait to see ESL versus IMG. Will be rooting hard for them.
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If Cary Grove beats Prairie Ridge is it because of lack of discipline on behalf of PR?
ESL plays a national schedule, just whooped Loyola yet can’t beat Cary Grove.
Your hypothetical does not apply here. PR and CG have a similar talent level.
ESL is leaps and bounds in terms of talent above CG, but they clearly cannot handle the triple option. That is not a Jimmy and Joe’s problem.
Do you think if they replayed last years state title game but Cary Grove ran a modern high school offense that CG wins the game? If your answer to that question is no, well then you just proved my point.
I just don’t agree with the whole discipline criticism. To me I’d say we have a discipline problem if there were late hits, roughing the passer, running into the kicker, excessive celebrations, taunting….ESL makes the same mistakes that little league kids on up to the pros make every Sunday…You can call holding on every play(just depends on the ref) that’s every team. Pass interference happens! It’s apart of the game. Offsides/false starts..adrenaline, instinct and let’s not act like teams don’t use schemes to draw the defense offsides. That’s all apart of the game. In the heat of the moment- it happens. We don’t call that undisciplined, we call that football.
Now on the CG vs ESL and the talent level, I disagree there as well. CG runs a system that is probably taught as early as little league. They master it. ESL is extremely talented in their offense but I’d guarantee you that if you combine the two teams, the CG athletes would start over the ESL athletes if we are running CG offense. Just because on paper ESL has better players doesn’t mean they can fit in any system. Same would be the same if you put CG players in ESL system. The ESL are better at what they do. CG is better at what they do- the only advantage would be that CG sees the spread offense all year. ESL only sees the option in the state game. No excuse either way- we gotta stop it but that’s the reality.
CG has a game plan and a system that they execute flawlessly. Last year title game, they had the ball I think the entire 3rd quarter. They are good at what they do! 2-3 yards per play..over and over again..that’s hard for any team to stop. Then a play action pass after 70 rushing attempts. Talk about a system..
Now on the CG vs ESL and the talent level, I disagree there as well. CG runs a system that is probably taught as early as little league. They master it. ESL is extremely talented in their offense but I’d guarantee you that if you combine the two teams, the CG athletes would start over the ESL athletes if we are running CG offense. Just because on paper ESL has better players doesn’t mean they can fit in any system. Same would be the same if you put CG players in ESL system. The ESL are better at what they do. CG is better at what they do- the only advantage would be that CG sees the spread offense all year. ESL only sees the option in the state game. No excuse either way- we gotta stop it but that’s the reality.
CG has a game plan and a system that they execute flawlessly. Last year title game, they had the ball I think the entire 3rd quarter. They are good at what they do! 2-3 yards per play..over and over again..that’s hard for any team to stop. Then a play action pass after 70 rushing attempts. Talk about a system..
National schedule is irrelevant to the discussion.
How did you determine CG and PR have similar talent?
How did you determine ESL's talent is leaps and bounds above CG?
If instead of football CG and ESL got on the ice and played hockey who wins the game?
It may be useful to begin by defining the terms. The two definitions that follow are from the Random House Dictionary. I added the italics to emphasize the difference between the two words.
Skill: "The ability to do something well, arising from talent, training, or practice."
Talent: "A special natural ability or aptitude."
The last two championship games between Cary-Grove and East St. Louis seemed to indicate those teams (at those two times) were nearly equal in ability, and therefore nearly equal in skill. The question is, was the skill derived mostly from talent, or was it derived mostly from training, or was it derived mostly from practice? A high level of skill is usually obtained from a combination of all three components, but each of the three may be involved to different degrees.
When "Tez711" states: "CG runs a system that is probably taught as early as little league. They master it." He seems to suggest Cary-Grove's skill is mostly derived from practice. I do not disagree with that conclusion. The purpose of practice is largely to eliminate errors in the execution of a plan. In other words, it is to promote discipline.
He further states: "ESL is extremely talented in their offense... ". By using the word "talented" the suggestion is that they benefit from a high level of natural ability. I do not disagree with that conclusion either. I do not propose to prove the point, but it seems to me East St. Louis has (over the years) sent considerably more athletes to Power Five (now Power Four) Conference teams than Cary-Grove has. East St. Louis has produced more three-star, four-star, and occasionally even five-star athletes than Cary-Grove has.
Both teams practice, train and have talented athletes, but the forgoing information would strongly indicate that, in a relative sense, Cary-Grove's skill is more the result of discipline and East St. Louis's skill is more the result of natural athletic ability. Did we not just see the speed differential between East St. Louis and Loyola? This does not disparage East St. Louis in any way. It takes practice and training to utilize natural ability and create a winning team. That is part of what makes sports enjoyable; to see the different ways that different coaches maximize the use of their teams' strengths and minimize the exposure of their teams' weaknesses.
In summary, winning teams play with skill. Skill is derived largely from natural ability, training, and practice; and some degree of all three is necessary. Playing to their respective strengths, some teams use more of one component than they use of the other components. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that fact.
P.S. There are also other components to success such as, but not limited to, facilities and strategy.
Skill: "The ability to do something well, arising from talent, training, or practice."
Talent: "A special natural ability or aptitude."
The last two championship games between Cary-Grove and East St. Louis seemed to indicate those teams (at those two times) were nearly equal in ability, and therefore nearly equal in skill. The question is, was the skill derived mostly from talent, or was it derived mostly from training, or was it derived mostly from practice? A high level of skill is usually obtained from a combination of all three components, but each of the three may be involved to different degrees.
When "Tez711" states: "CG runs a system that is probably taught as early as little league. They master it." He seems to suggest Cary-Grove's skill is mostly derived from practice. I do not disagree with that conclusion. The purpose of practice is largely to eliminate errors in the execution of a plan. In other words, it is to promote discipline.
He further states: "ESL is extremely talented in their offense... ". By using the word "talented" the suggestion is that they benefit from a high level of natural ability. I do not disagree with that conclusion either. I do not propose to prove the point, but it seems to me East St. Louis has (over the years) sent considerably more athletes to Power Five (now Power Four) Conference teams than Cary-Grove has. East St. Louis has produced more three-star, four-star, and occasionally even five-star athletes than Cary-Grove has.
Both teams practice, train and have talented athletes, but the forgoing information would strongly indicate that, in a relative sense, Cary-Grove's skill is more the result of discipline and East St. Louis's skill is more the result of natural athletic ability. Did we not just see the speed differential between East St. Louis and Loyola? This does not disparage East St. Louis in any way. It takes practice and training to utilize natural ability and create a winning team. That is part of what makes sports enjoyable; to see the different ways that different coaches maximize the use of their teams' strengths and minimize the exposure of their teams' weaknesses.
In summary, winning teams play with skill. Skill is derived largely from natural ability, training, and practice; and some degree of all three is necessary. Playing to their respective strengths, some teams use more of one component than they use of the other components. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that fact.
P.S. There are also other components to success such as, but not limited to, facilities and strategy.
Ironically I felt that ESTL played pretty solid defense in last year's state title game....allowed 199 yards total yards rushing and as we know it was one huge drive to win the games for CG otherwise I thought that was the best effort Ive seen for ESTL against the triple
Edgy- you were at the game right? How did ESL and Loyola look? Highlights don’t do us any good. We trust your judgement. Most of us opt to stay home and watch the game on NFHS from the comforts of our homes only to get an audible called on us by the network. We’ve yet to figure out the play they called. The game never showed up.
So often on this board, we perceive the ability of players by how they are judged by recruiters at the college level, instead of judging them as high school players. There are certainly great 3-5 star athletes that are great high school players, but there is also a certain amount that are judged based on their potential and measurables, rather than their ability to play the game at the HS level.
CG has a lot of really good HS players that run a system that plays to their strengths, and since it is different than what most teams see, week in and week out, it adds to their strength. And success breeds success., from the JR levels on up.
Considering ESL doesn’t have a hockey team, I would say Cary Grove.
I made that determination about CG and PR because I was a high school football official for many years. If you disagree about the comparison, I would be all ears.
ESL’s talent is objectively leaps and bounds above virtually anyone, anywhere. Loyola coach said himself he’s never seen speed like that. This is not a knock on Cary Grove. I thought it was awesome when they won last year.
CG clearly is talented and they all run that offense from second grade on. They execute it to perfection. It’s awesome. I just think CG is a matchup problem scheme wise for ESL more than anything. They have ESL’s number, but I don’t think they could compete nationally like ESL does. Just my opinion. Personally, I’m proud to have both teams in the IHSA.
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I'm not sure if, with this message, you are agreeing or disagreeing with my post. Either way, I agree with what you have written here.
In my post, I referred to the star system and college recruiting as a measure of talent (natural athletic ability), not as a measure of overall high school football playing ability. Football playing ability can also be developed through training (weights and conditioning) and practice. When, as you put it, players are "judged based on their potential and measurables," it is their talent level that is being judged.
It is my contention, which is just one man's opinion, that as a program East St. Louis's teams generally have more talent than Cary-Grove's teams. The overall skill level is very similar in my view, though the style of play is (of course) very different.
Does ESL have more database kids? Absolutely. But what does that actually measure? Typically height, weight, 40 time etc.
I'm not buying that CG or any team making it to the championship game did it with a bunch of bad athletes that aren't skilled on football. So I agree with your final sentence which to me is the point.
I still don't know what you mean by talent level. I don't know that I disagree or agree with your assessment of the talent level of CG and PR. To me, the teams tend to play very competitive games against each other so my assumption is that the talent level is similar.
CG and ESL tend to play very competitive games against each other so I assume when they meet up the talent level is similar. Maybe one of those years when ESL makes it to the championship and CG doesn't the talent level is different, who knows?
It appears to me, this year there is a wide gap between ESL and LA talent wise. Maybe if they played again the game is closer and the talent level is apparently more similar. Who knows?
This. CG is 56-11 with 3 championships in the last 6 seasons. They ain't doing it with smoke and mirrors.
I'm agreeing with you, but wanted to make the point that so many times we judge HS players on how they are recruited, rather than their play on the field.
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