And the better defense. Unless you are a bombardier team that relies on the long passes you can still be fine in high winds with short routes, same as runs. Defense wins in November!
Hersey @ Batavia
- Thread starter sewardsfolly
- Start date
Long time MSL Fan but the MSL East hasn't beat a good team in the playoffs in a long time.
Prospect had a great draw last year and RM had a great draw in 2019.
The East struggles when they play a good team in the playoffs.
They usually get beat or destroyed.
Prospect had a great draw last year and RM had a great draw in 2019.
The East struggles when they play a good team in the playoffs.
They usually get beat or destroyed.
Sorry 13-13 Batavia ball fourth and 5 lining up for a 40 yard FG 49 ticks left
What a crazy sequence - Batavia elects to go for it on 4th down. Looked like he got in but officials ruled no - Hersey ball still tied at 13
No question. Maine South is legit. Best of luck to the Hawks moving forward!
Good! Lots returning and they're on a great run but 8A is no joke and getting past the 2nd round is difficult for the new kid on the block. Keep knocking....
I think they have to. The closed conference is not working. Other than South Elgin and 1-2 of the Glenbards it is really bad football. I’ve been hearing some of the MSL east schools want to bail due to lack of success. That would be a great place for them to land.
Sorry in advance for this long answer...but this is the Million Dollar Question, and there's no EASY answer for it. I've read these types of questions/comments on here for months and I've been reluctant to reply, but here are my convoluted thoughts:
1) Expansion looks great on paper, and in football it just might be, but what would it do for the other 27 sports? Adding DeKalb (as was discussed years ago) makes for a terrible Tuesday Night VB game between Fenton and DeKalb.
2) Who do you add?
*Riverside-Brookfield? - Yes! But that doesn't "move the needle" for South Elgin's playoff hopes (or GBE's). And it would leave an odd number of teams.
*West Aurora? - Yes! But no needle movement there either (playing West Aurora won't help South Elgin get past Maine South, Marist or Brother Rice...their only losses in the last 4 seasons).
*MSL East Schools? Yes and no! Hersey and Prospect help the conference. Elk Grove, Wheeling, BG and the new RM regime do not. Look at those drive times for a sophomore baseball game too...
3) SE, GBE would benefit from a non-con schedule of 1-2 games, but finding those games is not easy and I remember when South Elgin had to shame St. Viator on Twitter into playing during the COVID year. Who's to say finding a "worthy opponent" would be easy? Then you have to look at the bottom of the conference, who would they find non-con? CPS schools (how does that help?) or Maine East/Round Lake? This isn't an easy fix for 10-12 schools and 1-2 games each.
4) GBE was within 2 points of Minooka this year, and SE has been to the 2nd round each of the last 3 playoff seasons. GBS generally wins one playoff game (this school is the underachiever if you look at sheer talent). Can anyone expect Larkin, Elgin or Bartlett to be competitive in the 7A or 8A playoffs? No disrespect intended, but those schools would struggle even if they played better "non-con" opponents. I have theories as to why but that's for another time.
5) Every conference has good and bad teams (granted some more then others) and there has been a lack of playoff success from many schools that are touted on this board. The idea that a tougher conference would help SE or GBE win state is slightly overrated.
For example, how many state championships have been won in football by the following 8A schools (historically)?
York
Hinsdale Central (played for one)
Lyons Township
Neuqua Valley
Waubonsie Valley
St. Charles East
Marist (played for two)
Palatine (played for two)
Fremd
Barrington (played for one)
Oswego
Oswego East
O'Fallon
Glenbrook South
Evanston
New Trier
Huntley
The answer is zero.
That's not intended as a shot at any of those schools, or even comparing their current football team to any Upstate Eight team, but the fact is they have NEVER won a state title and play in "better" conferences, with better non-con schedules.
6) Since 2008 (Hinsdale Centrals last attempt at a State title) there have been 13 state champions, and 26 teams in the 8A finals. Here's how it stacks up:
Loyola - 6 trips
Maine South - 5 trips
LWE - 3 trips
Mt. Carmel - 2 trips
Marist - 2 trips
Brother Rice - 1 trip
Warren - 1 trip
HF - 1 trip
Stevenson - 1 trip
Bolingbrook - 1 trip
and a few others but sporadic.
My point is; the wealth lies at the very top. ONLY A SELECT few schools are in the hunt in 8A, yet talk is always about strength of conference and non-cons.
I would love to see a discussion about these points. They're not Hersey/Batavia focused but worth talking about.
SE, I agree with a lot of what you said, especially that there is no easy answer. Both SE and GBE are on the right track imo to getting to the next level.
2.) Expansion - If you expand and split, you probably have SE and GBE/GBS on opposite divisions (unless you split divs by football strength, which I think is more attractive), which splitting doesn’t help.
Who? I don’t know about West Aurora, but Riverside-Brookside could make some sense. Not sure on other.
3.) Non-Conf - I agree 100% SE and GBE benefit and this is what I think these programs really need, but I disagree with your assessment that these 2 teams + GBS would have an issue finding quality opponents. I think the WSC and DuKane conference would absolutely love to schedule SE and GBE. That’s a game against a quality opponent that boosts playoff points, helps prepare teams for conf, and upper DuKane teams would still be favored.
Edit: Looking at DuKane teams Non-Conference opponents, this conference isn’t scared of scheduling anyone. SE and GBE fit perfectly for just about any of the Dukane teams.
2.) Expansion - If you expand and split, you probably have SE and GBE/GBS on opposite divisions (unless you split divs by football strength, which I think is more attractive), which splitting doesn’t help.
Who? I don’t know about West Aurora, but Riverside-Brookside could make some sense. Not sure on other.
3.) Non-Conf - I agree 100% SE and GBE benefit and this is what I think these programs really need, but I disagree with your assessment that these 2 teams + GBS would have an issue finding quality opponents. I think the WSC and DuKane conference would absolutely love to schedule SE and GBE. That’s a game against a quality opponent that boosts playoff points, helps prepare teams for conf, and upper DuKane teams would still be favored.
Edit: Looking at DuKane teams Non-Conference opponents, this conference isn’t scared of scheduling anyone. SE and GBE fit perfectly for just about any of the Dukane teams.
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You're right! Those teams used to be in the Upstate Eight, but what about the lower level teams in the UEC? Who does Fenton play? West Chicago? I'm thinking across the board...
Very fair point on thinking across the board.
Those teams are all easy wins if anyone is looking though… I’d wonder if there are many 8A/7A forced to schedule the aforementioned CPS schools that could easily schedule a home and away against West Chicago or Fenton vs scheduling inferior CPS teams??
1.) South Elgin plays in the DVC Football only
2.) You could schedule WSG conference along with Dukane conference
1) U-46 Superintendent will not allow the 5 schools to be in separate conferences. Not SE's fault. Most do not know that.
2) What about the rest of the UEC?
I love 2. WSG and SCE/Geneva/Lake Park all excellent scheduling options for the “rest” of U8 outside SE/GBE/GS.
Probably need to expand, what teams do you like? If RB is one, I’d like to split conf by strength (football only), have 5 in division games, 2 crossovers, and 2 non-conference.
Division A:
South Elgin
Glenbard East
Glenbard South
Larkin
Riverside-Brookfield
Bartlett
Division B:
Fenton
Elgin
Streamwood
West Chicago
Aurora East
West Aurora?
Division A:
South Elgin
Glenbard East
Larkin
Riverside-Brookfield
Bartlett
Glenbard North ? ( This is not a long shot all im gonna say on this)
Glenbard South
Division B:
Fenton
Addison Trail ( They play alot of Upstate 8 teams in non conference games already)
Elgin
Streamwood
West Chicago
Aurora East
Aurora West or Burlington Central
South Elgin
Glenbard East
Larkin
Riverside-Brookfield
Bartlett
Glenbard North ? ( This is not a long shot all im gonna say on this)
Glenbard South
Division B:
Fenton
Addison Trail ( They play alot of Upstate 8 teams in non conference games already)
Elgin
Streamwood
West Chicago
Aurora East
Aurora West or Burlington Central
If Glenbard North is in play, I think them and RB and you’re set. GBN is probably a dream add for the upper tier of U8. I don’t think AT and Aurora West add anything once you’re at 12.
So in this scenario, several of the "better" teams will not get in, but in the B Division, several of the bad teams will be in the playoffs? That's similar to the Plainfield Conference and that hasn't worked out for anyone except Yorkville. That would be a concern.
West Aurora would be undefeated in Division B every year and then we would be back to the "untested" argument with SE, no?
I think with making Divisions by Football strength, you pull a card from CCL and reshuffle the deck every couple years. West Aurora could slide into Division A and RB or Bartlett etc move down just as example.
With 6/6 split, you can have minimum 2 non conference games against WSC and Dukane to test yourself.
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Here’s an example schedule for SE, GBE, Larkin, and West Chicago for example.. two upper tier U8, one middle, and one bottom. Below based on 2 non-conf and 2crossover with RB and West Aurora added.
SE:
Non-Conf: St. Charles N, Glenbard North
Conf: GBE, GBS, Bartlett, Larkin, RB
Crossover: Elgin, West Chicago
GBE:
Non-Conf: Willowbrook, WWS
Conf: SE, GBS, Bartlett, Larkin, RB
Crossover: East Aurora, Streamwood
Larkin:
Non-Conf: Think Larkin would try to find gimmes to help get to 5 wins, so CPS and Leydon maybe?
Conf: GBE, GBS, Bartlett, RB, SE
Crossover: Elgin, West Aurora.
West Chicago:
Non-Conf: St. Charles East, Addison Trail
Conf: Elgin, West Aurora, East Aurora, Streamwood, Fenton
Crossover: SE, Bartlett
SE:
Non-Conf: St. Charles N, Glenbard North
Conf: GBE, GBS, Bartlett, Larkin, RB
Crossover: Elgin, West Chicago
GBE:
Non-Conf: Willowbrook, WWS
Conf: SE, GBS, Bartlett, Larkin, RB
Crossover: East Aurora, Streamwood
Larkin:
Non-Conf: Think Larkin would try to find gimmes to help get to 5 wins, so CPS and Leydon maybe?
Conf: GBE, GBS, Bartlett, RB, SE
Crossover: Elgin, West Aurora.
West Chicago:
Non-Conf: St. Charles East, Addison Trail
Conf: Elgin, West Aurora, East Aurora, Streamwood, Fenton
Crossover: SE, Bartlett
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I like this example. No way someone from the DuKane wants West Chicago on their schedule though.
I like the idea of a deal with the WSG but we're just speculating at this point. My concerns remain, and you can see why...the conference runs the gamut from good to terrible teams. Hard to find an answer that works for all.
I think St Charles East and Lake Park would both schedule West Chicago and lower U8 teams. It would be tougher but also schools in the mid-lower tier of Mid-Suburban (Schaumburg, etc) could be looking for a team like West Chicago or Streamwood etc to try and help get to 5 wins. Plus some of the lower tier WSG schools.
I think there’s enough schools that these ADs can find games, but it starts with expanding. Riverside-Brookfield is looking for a home so they could be one but it’s up to the conference to find those teams.
Yes, but why would West Chicago, who's also looking for wins, schedule those teams you mentioned?
What choice does WC have? What “wins” are available for them to schedule? Lower level CPS schools every yr? Not sure they are too concerned with scheduling wins based on the lack of success theyve had for a while.
Who was the IHSA 3A Track State Champion last spring…BATAVIA…the Bulldogs are loaded with speed athletes that took down everybody else in IL…
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