D3 offer

[prince_of_pilfer]

Late to the party.

What D3 offers is a spot on the team with 95 other kids and the opportunity to pay a crap ton of money to go to their school. This is a topic I'd love to sit down with people to debate because I can see with the responses there's a lot of passion.

 

[jwarigaku]

TonPlug,

Before we left Naperville in June of 2016 two of my boys were at Naz one a Junior the other a Soph. My 4th son was an 8th grade student in the Indian Prarie School District 204. I followed a lot of Ball like you and enjoyed watching many of my 4 sons Patriots teammates play in the DVC, Upstate 8, CCL Blue and Green, and the Plainfield and Oswego schools. Currently we are at Wilson Westlawn in the Lancaster Lebanon I league in PIAA District 3 of Pennsylvania. See the District and League concept can exist simultaneously.

Just a fan. Will go to a Brother Rice v Marist Game, or an Antioch v Lakes game. Was at Johnsburg v. Phillips a couple years ago.
Geographically I've followed Montini closely over the years, but also follow the other prominent programs in dupage county.

Yourself?

 

[jwarigaku]

If you consider $10-12k a crap on of money to go to school at the likes of U of Chicago, WashU, MIT, Johns Hopkins, Carnegie Mellon, Bates, Etc... than you are as clueless as it gets. Please start the debate this will be entertaining.

Late to the party.

What D3 offers is a spot on the team with 95 other kids and the opportunity to pay a crap ton of money to go to their school. This is a topic I'd love to sit down with people to debate because I can see with the responses there's a lot of passion.

 

[ClownBaby]

If you consider $10-12k a crap on of money to go to school at the likes of U of Chicago, WashU, MIT, Johns Hopkins, Carnegie Mellon, Bates, Etc... than you are as clueless as it gets. Please start the debate this will be entertaining.

How many kids on the rosters of those schools do you think are only paying $10-12k a year to go to school? Most kids going to D3 are getting aid but it is still pricey.

 

[eagles2k3]

If you consider $10-12k a crap on of money to go to school at the likes of U of Chicago, WashU, MIT, Johns Hopkins, Carnegie Mellon, Bates, Etc... than you are as clueless as it gets. Please start the debate this will be entertaining.

You’re absolutely wrong on wash u. They do not give special aid to athletes. Yes it’s easier to get in if you’re a stud football player but that does not mean you get special athletic aid. You may qualify for other scholarships but you have the same opportunity as any other student. Wash u is 60k plus to attend.

 

[jwarigaku]

Eagles,

I've been through this multiple times, I understand that there is no money given at any D3 school for athletes per NCAA rules. There are creative ways the D3's, that are pricey, get the cost of attendance to be more reasonable and in the range of $10-30k which then puts you in the same range as the large flagship State Universities(Wisconsin, Indiana, Purdue, Etc) and the other state schools(Illinois State, NIU, Northern Iowa, Etc...). College will not be cheap for anyone but it certainly can be made affordable between school grants Federal grants(FAFSA if you qualify) and student work programs. What people need to realize is it takes sacrifice to be successful.

You’re absolutely wrong on wash u. They do not give special aid to athletes. Yes it’s easier to get in if you’re a stud football player but that does not mean you get special athletic aid. You may qualify for other scholarships but you have the same opportunity as any other student. Wash u is 60k plus to attend.

 

[jwarigaku]

Clown,

Average school grant award at Carnegie is $34k(non need based) so average cost of attendance is about $30-35k. With the size of the endowments at most of these pricey schools the scholarships are supported without touching anything but the yearly earnings.

How many kids on the rosters of those schools do you think are only paying $10-12k a year to go to school? Most kids going to D3 are getting aid but it is still pricey.

 

[bronco man]

Average school grant award at Carnegie is $34k(non need based) so average cost of attendance is about $30-35k.

Something seemed a little off, at least in my experience, about a grant being non-need based so I went to the experts at Carniegie Mellon who stated this about grants;

"Grants
Grants can be either governmentally funded at the federal or state level or institutionally funded. Grants are awarded to students who demonstrate financial need. Students wishing to apply for grant funds should reference our Applying for Aid instructions."
https://admission.enrollment.cmu.edu/pages/grants-scholarships

 

[Voodoo Tatum 21]

How can the Pioneer league give academic non need based merit grants that cover roughly half of the annual cost? You don’t even need to do anything beyond apply to the school thru the common app- it just comes in the acceptance letters.

Is it because there are less students there with super high ACT/SATs so when someone applies with a 30-33 ACT range it qualifies for the big academic grant money? Whereas in the case of the “smartie” DIII’s...that same ACT range doesn’t come close to getting to the door with the money and/or it is only need based academic grants at the D3 schools? Would Artistic talents include the ability to play football? Maybe a stretch? This shit is confusing. But If the D3’s can only do it based on financial need - they are at a huge disadvantage in many degree areas. Take undergrad business. Indiana has a top 10 undergrad B school and Butler a top 50. Both are well under 35k all in with non need based academic merit grants doing a major price reduction. And compare that to Carnegie and WashU both great under grad B schools as well but double the cost if they can’t also provide non need based academic merit grants?

 

[eagles2k3]

How can the Pioneer league give academic non need based merit grants that cover roughly half of the annual cost? You don’t even need to do anything beyond apply to the school thru the common app- it just comes in the acceptance letters.

Is it because there are less students there with super high ACT/SATs so when someone applies with a 30-33 ACT range it qualifies for the big academic grant money? Whereas in the case of the “smartie” DIII’s...that same ACT range doesn’t come close to getting to the door with the money and/or it is only need based academic grants at the D3 schools? Would Artistic talents include the ability to play football? Maybe a stretch? This shit is confusing. But If the D3’s can only do it based on financial need - they are at a huge disadvantage in many degree areas. Take undergrad business. Indiana has a top 10 undergrad B school and Butler a top 50. Both are well under 35k all in with non need based academic merit grants doing a major price reduction. And compare that to Carnegie and WashU both great under grad B schools as well but double the cost if they can’t also provide non need based academic merit grants?

They do provide financial aid on academic merit. They just call them academic scholarships.

I have a family friend at Wash U playing football. Total cost is 62k I believe. They don't qualify for any need based aid. He applied for a couple of engineering scholarships and got them from the school. He had to apply the same way as any other undergrad. Parents are paying around 28k out of pocket. There are very few full-academic scholarships, maybe a handful at each top school but there are other academic scholarships available.

 

[LakeCtyNewt]

At the end of the day does it matter? If a kid has his heart set on playing collegiate sports and is “offered” a spot then they should celebrate. Why not? Because it’s not D1 where they likely would sit and wouldn’t play a down?

Let the kid enjoy something that’s important to him. On top of it, whether it be D2 D3 NAIA or whatever, he’s getting a college education. Sure it costs a lot of money but who cares.

I can tell you that if my son is offered a chance to play college sports even if the school isn’t footing the bill I’m doing everything i can possibly do to make that chance possible for him.

At the end of the day my son would be a college athlete which is something that’s very important to him.

 

[go_rice]

I played D-3 football at one of the U-W schools & can honestly say the talent level was below that which I faced in the Chicago Catholic League. Ridicule me if you will but I'm speaking truthfully on the matter.

 

[eagles2k3]

I played D-3 football at one of the U-W schools & can honestly say the talent level was below that which I faced in the Chicago Catholic League. Ridicule me if you will but I'm speaking truthfully on the matter.

This is surprising. WIAC is the best DIII conference in the country.

 

[go_rice]

This is surprising. WIAC is the best DIII conference in the country.

At the end of the day, it's D-III, kids passed over by D-I & II, some guys on our team didnt even play high school football believe it or not. From going against several D-I players on the MC, LA, SR teams to that level seemed a step down. Was fun, but not the same level in my opinion.

 

[USD24]

I played D-3 football at one of the U-W schools & can honestly say the talent level was below that which I faced in the Chicago Catholic League. Ridicule me if you will but I'm speaking truthfully on the matter.

From my experience and from the many d3 and high school games I have witnessed, I completely disagree with you. Of course there are kids in the CCL that are better than d3 talent, but the overall talent level in d3 football is far better than the CCL. In the last year I went to a few d3 games as well as a few LA and MC games. The d3 teams would absolutely destroy those high school teams. We are talking about 22 year old men vs 17 year old boys....no comparision.

 

[mc140]

At the end of the day, it's D-III, kids passed over by D-I & II, some guys on our team didnt even play high school football believe it or not. From going against several D-I players on the MC, LA, SR teams to that level seemed a step down. Was fun, but not the same level in my opinion.

A CCL team is not beating a team from that conference. White-Water and the like would running clock Loyola. While a lot of kids int he CCL will end up better in the long run, it is still 20-22 year olds vs 16-18 year olds.

 

[jwarigaku]

Bronco, that's part of the story but as usual it's the part you want to convey. Since my FAFSA EFT is $91457 I don't qualify for need based programs, but my son is certainly getting funded. Much like him, I suppose I am at the point of not really giving 2 $hits about you Yahoo's, and your dedication to feeling that D3 has no appeal or type of offer. During the season of Christmas I wish you and all your ilk peace, prosperity, and good tidings! Merry Christmas everyone

Something seemed a little off, at least in my experience, about a grant being non-need based so I went to the experts at Carniegie Mellon who stated this about grants;

"Grants
Grants can be either governmentally funded at the federal or state level or institutionally funded. Grants are awarded to students who demonstrate financial need. Students wishing to apply for grant funds should reference our Applying for Aid instructions."
https://admission.enrollment.cmu.edu/pages/grants-scholarships

 

[eagles2k3]

From my experience and from the many d3 and high school games I have witnessed, I completely disagree with you. Of course there are kids in the CCL that are better than d3 talent, but the overall talent level in d3 football is far better than the CCL. In the last year I went to a few d3 games as well as a few LA and MC games. The d3 teams would absolutely destroy those high school teams. We are talking about 22 year old men vs 17 year old boys....no comparision.

100% agree. Locally North Central College and Wheaton College would beat any high school team by 60+.

 

[Voodoo Tatum 21]

At the end of the day does it matter? If a kid has his heart set on playing collegiate sports and is “offered” a spot then they should celebrate. Why not? Because it’s not D1 where they likely would sit and wouldn’t play a down?

Let the kid enjoy something that’s important to him. On top of it, whether it be D2 D3 NAIA or whatever, he’s getting a college education. Sure it costs a lot of money but who cares.

I can tell you that if my son is offered a chance to play college sports even if the school isn’t footing the bill I’m doing everything i can possibly do to make that chance possible for him.

At the end of the day my son would be a college athlete which is something that’s very important to him.

I’m totally with you Newt - but the price/value proposition has to come into play at some point AND Football is just one variable in the college decision and in my humble opinion it should not be the primary one (I’m telling one of my kids that and it seems to be falling on partially deaf ears).

Our household Example.
* Kid has decided he wants to study business and go to an undergrad B school OR go economics or something if a school does not have an undergrad B school

* Kid has good grades and good ACT to get into any major state school (Indiana, Illinois etc etc) and get Academic Merit grant money. That makes the All in cost of those schools around 30-35k a year even out of state.

* Kid is a very good football player but a couple inches too short and 40 pounds too light at present for the positions he plays (Oline primary and played some DLine this year short yardage and goal line but first year playing DLine since Frosh and limited DLine film) to garner any real looks at FBS/Major FCS programs. 6’ 2 and change and 255ish does not cut it at the high levels and he can’t get any taller

* Kid wants to play college ball and has Football scholarship offers at multiple DII schools and NAIA schools which brings the annual cost at those schools between football scholarship and academic merit grants Down to the 5k to 9K a year all in depending on the school. Kid also has roster spots at 4 Pioneer league schools with 20k a year or so in Academic merit grants. and of course some D3’s that are significant academic institutions and I have no idea what’s going on with the D3’s and how that stuff works.

Unfortunately the D2’s don’t seem to have what I would call stellar undergrad business schools. But that low cost WOW!! (Also probably not going to play right away - redshirt/add 25 pounds in the weight room etc)

Pioneer league schools - decent but not great Bschools and the cost is very reasonable with the merit academic grants. (probably not going to play right away - redshirt add 20 pounds etc. see D2 above)

State Schools - good schools and in some cases great B schools and cost is a lot but not heart stopping 35k all in.

D3’s - fantastic schools and also great B schools. Can complete for playing time/ starting spot right away. But Cost is heart stopping 60k-75k all in per year. Merit grants all need based? Academic scholarships have to run around and apply for seperately? I have no idea how that works.

So - I look at the above and have a hard time with spending double just for football and getting a fantastic degree when a state school with great Bschool with no football is half the cost? I also struggle with recommending one of the D2’s just to get a low cost and play football when the business degree might not be “of a similar quality” of the other choices available.

Bottom line - the price/value proposition has to come into play somewhere. It can’t all be about football (even though I love the game, Love watching HS football and college football in general and also love to watch my kid(s) play and have fun). Nearly all these kids (even at the power 5) will not be playing football after College so I don’t think football should be the primary decision making driver of a college choice. It’s a great honor and a great perk to be afforded the opportunity to play college ball - but the School choice should not be solely be about where you can play should it? The type of education you are looking for should come into play and then what are the prices of each of those options? IE the price value proposition?

If WashU or UofChicago or Carnigie or Johns Hopkins or etc etc. was 30-40k I would recommend that option all day long if asked. Great price/value proposition and have opportunity to play right away as an additional perk gettIng to play football for 4 more years!

 

[redmen85]

Voodoo,
I would recommend taking a serious look at ISU's Business School.
Very highly respected.
My son graduated from there.last Spring.
Plenty of interviews upon graduation.
Very well respected.

 

[LakeCtyNewt]

I’m totally with you Newt - but the price/value proposition has to come into play at some point AND Football is just one variable in the college decision and in my humble opinion it should not be the primary one (I’m telling one of my kids that and it seems to be falling on partially deaf ears).

Our household Example.
* Kid has decided he wants to study business and go to an undergrad B school OR go economics or something if a school does not have an undergrad B school

* Kid has good grades and good ACT to get into any major state school (Indiana, Illinois etc etc) and get Academic Merit grant money. That makes the All in cost of those schools around 30-35k a year even out of state.

* Kid is a very good football player but a couple inches too short and 40 pounds too light at present for the positions he plays (Oline primary and played some DLine this year short yardage and goal line but first year playing DLine since Frosh and limited DLine film) to garner any real looks at FBS/Major FCS programs. 6’ 2 and change and 255ish does not cut it at the high levels and he can’t get any taller

* Kid wants to play college ball and has Football scholarship offers at multiple DII schools and NAIA schools which brings the annual cost at those schools between football scholarship and academic merit grants Down to the 5k to 9K a year all in depending on the school. Kid also has roster spots at 4 Pioneer league schools with 20k a year or so in Academic merit grants. and of course some D3’s that are significant academic institutions and I have no idea what’s going on with the D3’s and how that stuff works.

Unfortunately the D2’s don’t seem to have what I would call stellar undergrad business schools. But that low cost WOW!! (Also probably not going to play right away - redshirt/add 25 pounds in the weight room etc)

Pioneer league schools - decent but not great Bschools and the cost is very reasonable with the merit academic grants. (probably not going to play right away - redshirt add 20 pounds etc. see D2 above)

State Schools - good schools and in some cases great B schools and cost is a lot but not heart stopping 35k all in.

D3’s - fantastic schools and also great B schools. Can complete for playing time/ starting spot right away. But Cost is heart stopping 60k-75k all in per year. Merit grants all need based? Academic scholarships have to run around and apply for seperately? I have no idea how that works.

So - I look at the above and have a hard time with spending double just for football and getting a fantastic degree when a state school with great Bschool with no football is half the cost? I also struggle with recommending one of the D2’s just to get a low cost and play football when the business degree might not be “of a similar quality” of the other choices available.

Bottom line - the price/value proposition has to come into play somewhere. It can’t all be about football (even though I love the game, Love watching HS football and college football in general and also love to watch my kid(s) play and have fun). Nearly all these kids (even at the power 5) will not be playing football after College so I don’t think football should be the primary decision making driver of a college choice. It’s a great honor and a great perk to be afforded the opportunity to play college ball - but the School choice should not be solely be about where you can play should it? The type of education you are looking for should come into play and then what are the prices of each of those options? IE the price value proposition?

If WashU or UofChicago or Carnigie or Johns Hopkins or etc etc. was 30-40k I would recommend that option all day long if asked. Great price/value proposition and have opportunity to play right away as an additional perk gettIng to play football for 4 more years!

Voodoo

Youre 100% on the mark here. In the end I want the best situation for my son. If it costs a little more so be it.

 

[Voodoo Tatum 21]

Voodoo,
I would recommend taking a serious look at ISU's Business School.
Very highly respected.
My son graduated from there.last Spring.
Plenty of interviews upon graduation.
Very well respected.

Illinois Wesleyan correct? Yeah that was one of the schools that was contacting him early on this summer I think. Not sure though cuz all the contact goes direct from coaches to recruit/player. And I think he whittled his list down before the Fball season and I hope that wasn’t one of the ones he dropped.

I did hear they have a very good B school and also a very good football program! I bet the cost is heart stopping like Uchicago and WashU?

Another D3 early on was Whitewater - I heard they had a stadium that seats 35,000 people or something. He was going to go out to take a visit to see it - but don’t think he ever did.

 

[Voodoo Tatum 21]

Voodoo

Youre 100% on the mark here. In the end I want the best situation for my son. If it costs a little more so be it.

I’m totally with you on the little more. I don’t want to cut corners at all. As parents we will try and move Heaven And Earth if we can for our kids. It’s the double the cost thing that I struggle with from a purely objective business sense.

 

[redmen85]

No, I meant ISU. Excellent business school.
As far as Wesleyan, my youngest is currently playing D3 football. He looked at Wesleyan. Was accepted. The financial packages for the D3 schools he applied to were all within a couple of thousand a year from each other.
At the end of the day-I pay almost the same as it cost me to send the oldest to ISU.
He got a lot of academic $$.

 

[anon_4vszfu35bv677]

How can the Pioneer league give academic non need based merit grants that cover roughly half of the annual cost?

For my son it was grades and test scores. He had both.

 

[Voodoo Tatum 21]

No, I meant ISU. Excellent business school.
As far as Wesleyan, my youngest is currently playing D3 football. He looked at Wesleyan. Was accepted. The financial packages for the D3 schools he applied to were all within a couple of thousand a year from each other.
At the end of the day-I pay almost the same as it cost me to send the oldest to ISU.
He got a lot of academic $$.

Man I’m sorry I m Not good with all the letters. When I see/say “UW” that means university of Washington to me and all my neighbors say University of Wisconsin for some reason

ISU = Illinois State University? Wow that is a power FCS football program! That would be walking on or in the “no football” bucket of schools like Indiana, Illinois, etc. etc. i would think.

 

[Voodoo Tatum 21]

For my son it was grades and test scores. He had both.

Absolutely! I was hoping the D3’s did the same kind of thing? But I’m seeing a lot of mixed opinions on if that is allowed or not at the D3’s or if it is - do you need to be an academic prodigy to get them at some of the D3 schools like WashU Carnigie etc.

 

[jcrewx7]

I played D-3 football at one of the U-W schools & can honestly say the talent level was below that which I faced in the Chicago Catholic League. Ridicule me if you will but I'm speaking truthfully on the matter.

I call Bull$hit

 

[bronco man]

Much like him, I suppose I am at the point of not really giving 2 $hits about you Yahoo's, and your dedication to feeling that D3 has no appeal or type of offer.

It is surprising to me that you can draw the conclusion that I am denigrating the appeal of a D3 school by any comment I have made on this thread or any other thread. Of course I don't think that is really the point of your comment.

 

[ramblinman]

From my experience and from the many d3 and high school games I have witnessed, I completely disagree with you. Of course there are kids in the CCL that are better than d3 talent, but the overall talent level in d3 football is far better than the CCL. In the last year I went to a few d3 games as well as a few LA and MC games. The d3 teams would absolutely destroy those high school teams. We are talking about 22 year old men vs 17 year old boys....no comparision.

I'm not one who is quick to defend or speak for go_rice. But, I don't think he was talking about whether or not a CCL team could beat a D3 team. I think he was likely referring to the talent level in the WIAC schools relative to what he experienced in the CCL. Even if that is the case, I would still take exception to his argument.

Sure, you don't see the number of highly talented outliers in the WIAC like you see in the CCL. Those outliers are more likely getting full or partial rides to play in D1 or D2. However, what percentage of CCL players overall, minus those outliers, go on to play college ball?

There is a huge drop off in participation between high school ball and college ball. According to the NCAA, roughly 7% of high school players go on to play NCAA football -- at any level. http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/research/football On the surface, that statistic might seem to bolster go_rice's argument. Actually, though, I think it defeats it.

Of those who go on to play college ball, I believe that a substantial majority of them come from the TOP 10%-20% of high school players with above average talent who love the game and who are up to satisfying the increased commitment demanded by college football -- even at the D3 level. You just don't see many average or below average high school players wanting to continue playing college ball in general, and especially not at schools in a very competitive D3 conference like the WIAC. Maybe you see some of that at less competitive colleges, but that's not what go_rice was talking about.

 

[Cmon Now]

From my experience and from the many d3 and high school games I have witnessed, I completely disagree with you. Of course there are kids in the CCL that are better than d3 talent, but the overall talent level in d3 football is far better than the CCL. In the last year I went to a few d3 games as well as a few LA and MC games. The d3 teams would absolutely destroy those high school teams. We are talking about 22 year old men vs 17 year old boys....no comparision.

Totally agree. In the words of Colonel Trautman, "Don't forget one thing; a good supply of body bags".

 

[Voodoo Tatum 21]

Totally agree. In the words of Colonel Trautman, "Don't forget one thing; a good supply of body bags".

Yes I of course agree

But since it’s the off-season - what about 2 hypotheticals to kick around and debate.

Hypo1: Would Whitewater or North Central running clock IMG? I’m thinking no as nearly all the starters on an IMG team will be playing either D1 or D2 so that teams talent level is at or above all D3’s even though they 16-18 and far younger. Thoughts? Am I wrong?

Hypo2: would Whitewater or North Central be in danger of actually losing to IMG? I am unsure of this - men vs boys but the boys are supremely talented for the most part. I will toss out a guess. If they played 10 times - IMG might win 2 or 3 times and NNC/WW would win 7-8 times? Thoughts? Am I wrong?

 

[eagles2k3]

Yes I of course agree

But since it’s the off-season - what about 2 hypotheticals to kick around and debate.

Hypo1: Would Whitewater or North Central running clock IMG? I’m thinking no as nearly all the starters on an IMG team will be playing either D1 or D2 so that teams talent level is at or above all D3’s even though they 16-18 and far younger. Thoughts? Am I wrong?

Hypo2: would Whitewater or North Central be in danger of actually losing to IMG? I am unsure of this - men vs boys but the boys are supremely talented for the most part. I will toss out a guess. If they played 10 times - IMG might win 2 or 3 times and NNC/WW would win 7-8 times? Thoughts? Am I wrong?

This is an interesting question. I would say that North Central and Whitewater would win strictly on the lines. The man strength of those 22-23 year olds would no doubt handle them. I would think the skills would be different. I don't think NC or Whitewater could match up with the speed that they would bring.

 

[Voodoo Tatum 21]

This is an interesting question. I would say that North Central and Whitewater would win strictly on the lines. The man strength of those 22-23 year olds would no doubt handle them. I would think the skills would be different. I don't think NC or Whitewater could match up with the speed that they would bring.

That’s kinda what I was thinking but then Something popped into my mind IMG has a couple guys like Kevin Jarvis - dudes that could be playing D1 as a senior in HS. That kid was the most college ready lineman I have seen in HS in a long time. And others thought so as well because I watched him play/Start this year in two Michigan State games I watched.

Not all lineman at IMG are like that of course. But if they have a few - can they hang as a collective group in the trenches? Or do they get tired and worn down by the better overall line and depth of North Central/Whitewater? Tough to decide.

 

[mc140]

That’s kinda what I was thinking but then Something popped into my mind IMG has a couple guys like Kevin Jarvis - dudes that could be playing D1 as a senior in HS. That kid was the most college ready lineman I have seen in HS in a long time. And others thought so as well because I watched him play/Start this year in two Michigan State games I watched.

Not all lineman at IMG are like that of course. But if they have a few - can they hang as a collective group in the trenches? Or do they get tired and worn down by the better overall line and depth of North Central/Whitewater? Tough to decide.

Your only as strong as your weakest length. If you have 4 good lineman and the 5th can't play dead you will have some issues. I watched a very good Morgan Park team years ago who had 4 scholarship kids on the line but the 5th couldn't start on a decent frosh team. That kid was exploited the entire game and more or less shut their passing game down and made their run game predictable.