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Question for the board.......

MWittman

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Nov 22, 2004
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I recently held a lengthy chat with a man with whom I struck a conversation with on a return flight back from San Diego for the Holiday Bowl. A football fan with knowledge of the game beyond words, he fervently argued the legitimacy of BYU being awarded the National Title in 1984. His argument rested entirely with the incontrovertible fact BYU was undefeated. Naturally, I contested his position the 13-0 Cougars were worthy of the title when they played in a decidedly-weak conference and successfully navigated through a soft schedule to remain undefeated and capture the Holiday Bowl crown 24-17 in a comeback victory over a 6-5 Michigan. Furthermore, I argued passionately BYU was awarded the title for sentimental reasons over writers' personal feelings toward LaVell Edwards. A portion of my argument against BYU given the nod lay in the fact writers gave the title in 1993 to Bowden and, again, in 1997 to Osborne for personal reasons.

Full disclosure: I did cite Bowden being a favorite among writers in the football world and in general when I contested his position. Similarly, I did mention writers' only option other than FSU in 1993 was ND, which was unthinkable to some, nauseating to most. Moreover, I did reference NUMEROUS examples of writers' anti-ND bias, particularly the mountain of sh*t writers vomited up in 1993, and the UPI's notorious, frenzied dash to crown Alabama champion in 1973 weeks before the Tide LOST to ND in the Sugar Bowl.

Although math is not my province, I did some simple arithmetic and determined BYU's opponents' combined record was 49-74-2 in 1984, while Michigan's opponents' combined record was 69-58-2.

After healthy, spirited, and nuanced debate in which neither one retreated from our position, we diplomatically shifted the conversation to a different subject. This, however, inspired me to pose the question to the board as a conversation starter.

You can thank me later, because this could amount to stimulating exchanges and could, at the very least, briefly forestall the inevitable "Private versus Public" debate undoubtedly on the horizon.
 
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I actually mentioned this game in another thread a few weeks ago. I don’t think BYU deserved the NC. I remember some talk about them playing BC in the Orange Bowl that year and for some reason the game never materialized. Honestly forget who else was in the running but do remember thinking they hadn’t played a tough enough schedule.

BTW, I thought the Irish deserved the ‘93 NC escpecially since they beat FSU in “the game of the century”. That damn loss to BC though.
 
BYU NC was a gift to Edwards.

Crowning any football team without a true playoff is a sham. When we get to 8 teams it will finally make sense.
 
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I know that four's not enough, but eight is too many. You'd likely get a team with two losses, or a team from a weak conference with a good record.

Stick with four. If the Big Ten is left out, they probably deserved it.
 
I recently held a lengthy chat with a man with whom I struck a conversation with on a return flight back from San Diego for the Holiday Bowl. A football fan with knowledge of the game beyond words, he fervently argued the legitimacy of BYU being awarded the National Title in 1984. His argument rested entirely with the incontrovertible fact BYU was undefeated. Naturally, I contested his position the 13-0 Cougars were worthy of the title when they played in a decidedly-weak conference and successfully navigated through a soft schedule to remain undefeated and capture the Holiday Bowl crown 24-17 in a comeback victory over a 6-5 Michigan. Furthermore, I argued passionately BYU was awarded the title for sentimental reasons over writers' personal feelings toward LaVell Edwards. A portion of my argument against BYU given the nod lay in the fact writers gave the title in 1993 to Bowden and, again, in 1997 to Osborne for personal reasons.

Full disclosure: I did cite Bowden being a favorite among writers in the football world and in general when I contested his position. Similarly, I did mention writers' only option other than FSU in 1993 was ND, which was unthinkable to some, nauseating to most. Moreover, I did reference NUMEROUS examples of writers' anti-ND bias, particularly the mountain of sh*t writers vomited up in 1993, and the UPI's notorious, frenzied dash to crown Alabama champion in 1973 weeks before the Tide LOST to ND in the Sugar Bowl.

Although math is not my province, I did some simple arithmetic and determined BYU's opponents' combined record was 49-74-2 in 1984, while Michigan's opponents' combined record was 69-58-2.

After healthy, spirited, and nuanced debate in which neither one retreated from our position, we diplomatically shifted the conversation to a different subject. This, however, inspired me to pose the question to the board as a conversation starter.

You can thank me later, because this could amount to stimulating exchanges and could, at the very least, briefly forestall the inevitable "Private versus Public" debate undoubtedly on the horizon.
The one-loss Washington Huskies deserved to be the 1984 national champions after beating Oklahoma 28-17 in the Orange Bowl.
 
I know that four's not enough, but eight is too many. You'd likely get a team with two losses, or a team from a weak conference with a good record.

Stick with four. If the Big Ten is left out, they probably deserved it.
I tend to agree. Heck, so far only one year hasn't been 1 v 2. Maybe the old bcs championship model was good enough, lol.
 
I recently held a lengthy chat with a man with whom I struck a conversation with on a return flight back from San Diego for the Holiday Bowl. A football fan with knowledge of the game beyond words, he fervently argued the legitimacy of BYU being awarded the National Title in 1984. His argument rested entirely with the incontrovertible fact BYU was undefeated. Naturally, I contested his position the 13-0 Cougars were worthy of the title when they played in a decidedly-weak conference and successfully navigated through a soft schedule to remain undefeated and capture the Holiday Bowl crown 24-17 in a comeback victory over a 6-5 Michigan. Furthermore, I argued passionately BYU was awarded the title for sentimental reasons over writers' personal feelings toward LaVell Edwards. A portion of my argument against BYU given the nod lay in the fact writers gave the title in 1993 to Bowden and, again, in 1997 to Osborne for personal reasons.

Full disclosure: I did cite Bowden being a favorite among writers in the football world and in general when I contested his position. Similarly, I did mention writers' only option other than FSU in 1993 was ND, which was unthinkable to some, nauseating to most. Moreover, I did reference NUMEROUS examples of writers' anti-ND bias, particularly the mountain of sh*t writers vomited up in 1993, and the UPI's notorious, frenzied dash to crown Alabama champion in 1973 weeks before the Tide LOST to ND in the Sugar Bowl.

Although math is not my province, I did some simple arithmetic and determined BYU's opponents' combined record was 49-74-2 in 1984, while Michigan's opponents' combined record was 69-58-2.

After healthy, spirited, and nuanced debate in which neither one retreated from our position, we diplomatically shifted the conversation to a different subject. This, however, inspired me to pose the question to the board as a conversation starter.

You can thank me later, because this could amount to stimulating exchanges and could, at the very least, briefly forestall the inevitable "Private versus Public" debate undoubtedly on the horizon.

Pardon me, but I did not see what question you are asking of the board.
 
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I actually mentioned this game in another thread a few weeks ago. I don’t think BYU deserved the NC. I remember some talk about them playing BC in the Orange Bowl that year and for some reason the game never materialized. Honestly forget who else was in the running but do remember thinking they hadn’t played a tough enough schedule.

BTW, I thought the Irish deserved the ‘93 NC escpecially since they beat FSU in “the game of the century”. That damn loss to BC though.

eireog:

I have a vague recollection you did mention this a while back. While BC had one of its best seasons under Bicknell in 1984, the team's loss to 6-5 PSU virtually doomed any chance it would play in a bowl game with title implications.

As far as the 1993 ND game with FSU, please don't get me started. Other than the two instances of the UPI crowning Alabama champions before ND played the Tide in the 1973 Sugar Bowl and the phantom penalty in the 1991 Orange Bowl against Colorado, I know of no better example of anti-ND bias.

To illustrate anti-ND sentiment among coaches and reporters, I point to the 1993 ND game against BC. Years ago, one week after the game, I read a reporter covering the West Virginia-Miami game was stunned as cheering broke out among WVU and Miami coaches and reporters in the WVU press box after word spread BC's last-minute field goal had delivered a win to the Eagles and delivered ND into polling purgatory. The writer, whose name escapes me, wrote it was a violation of long-standing, press-box decorum to offer praise in the misfortune of other teams.

In this case, since it was ND, it appeared both acceptable and universal.
 
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The one-loss Washington Huskies deserved to be the 1984 national champions after beating Oklahoma 28-17 in the Orange Bowl.

Alex:

I agree. Unfortunately, UW's loss to USC eliminated the Huskies after BYU went undefeated. I still think it was a joke.
 
I know that four's not enough, but eight is too many. You'd likely get a team with two losses, or a team from a weak conference with a good record.

Stick with four. If the Big Ten is left out, they probably deserved it.

8 leaves little doubt. If a 2 loss team gets in and gets smoked, too bad for them.
 
Bones:

Et tu Bones? Et tu?
You know when you're sitting in College Alegra / Trig and you didn't crack the book, but everyone else did but the teacher calls on you? It seemed like everyone here read the chapter.
 
8 leaves little doubt. If a 2 loss team gets in and gets smoked, too bad for them.
With all but 1 playoff ending up 1 v 2 how much doubt has 4 really left us? Unless we start consistently seeing upsets in the first round, why make a change?
 
With all but 1 playoff ending up 1 v 2 how much doubt has 4 really left us? Unless we start consistently seeing upsets in the first round, why make a change?

Because a one loss Big 10 or 2 loss SEC team could make some noise, particularly if the losses were early or in conference championship games.
 
If we are going to dredge up sports injustices from 1984, let's also discuss Game 5 of the NLCS. Anyone remember?

Chicago Cubs go up 2-0 in the best-of-five series.
The first two games were played at Wrigley Field.
The next two games were played at Jack Murphy Stadium in San Diego. The Padres won both home games and the series was tied 2-2.

Game 5 was scheduled to be played at Wrigley Field. Or was it?

For 35 years I had the story wrong. Just now as I was writing this, I looked for confirmation of this injustice on line and found this article...

https://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/2013/4/13/4219958/cubs-1984-playoff-myth-dallas-green

Turns out the West Division had home field advantage in a 2-3 series format in 1984. The East Division had home field advantage in odd numbered years. Very well written article to set the record straight for people like me who've had the story wrong for decades.
 
The confusion rests with the days for the World Series - which was scheduled to open in the NL park on a Tuesday.

MLB did not want the Cubs to host games 1, 2 and possible 6 and 7 because there were no lights in Wrigley Field.

They decided that if the Cubs won the NL, then the Series would open in Detroit. The Cubs would move to Friday, Saturday, and, maybe Sunday. This meant only one "prime time" game in the daytime.

Dallas Green almost had heart failure. He wanted temporary lights, but the city (or maybe MLB) said No. Then, he wanted to move the Cubs' games to St Louis. Playing the games at Comiskey or in Milwaukee, he claimed, would give the AL team a considerable advantage.

All he really wanted was the rights to put in lights without those cranky neighbors getting in the way. I wonder what he thinks of Ricketts extorting all those favors out of the city, and then, whining it's not enough?
 
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The confusion rests with the days for the World Series - which was scheduled to open in the NL park on a Tuesday.

MLB did not want the Cubs to host games 1, 2 and possible 6 and 7 because there were no lights in Wrigley Field.

They decided that if the Cubs won the NL, then the Series would open in Detroit. The Cubs would move to Friday, Saturday, and, maybe Sunday. This meant only one "prime time" game in the daytime.

Dallas Green almost had heart failure. He wanted temporary lights, but the city (or maybe MLB) said No. Then, he wanted to move the Cubs' games to St Louis. Playing the games at Comiskey or in Milwaukee, he claimed, would give the AL team a considerable advantage.

All he really wanted was the rights to put in lights without those cranky neighbors getting in the way. I wonder what he thinks of Ricketts extorting all those favors out of the city, and then, whining it's not enough?
I remember when MLB decided to move those World Series games if the Cubs had won the pennant. Of course that didn't happen but I thought MLB was wrong to do it.

You bring up something interesting. The Cubs and Ricketts. If the Cubs get bounced again or don't even make the playoffs in 2019, things will not all be good in Cub Land. Ricketts is sitting on his hands right now. It is also very interesting he cancelled the portion of the Cubs Convention where the fans ask ownership questions. Talk about ducking people who pay to see your team.
 
The confusion rests with the days for the World Series - which was scheduled to open in the NL park on a Tuesday.

MLB did not want the Cubs to host games 1, 2 and possible 6 and 7 because there were no lights in Wrigley Field.

They decided that if the Cubs won the NL, then the Series would open in Detroit. The Cubs would move to Friday, Saturday, and, maybe Sunday. This meant only one "prime time" game in the daytime.

Dallas Green almost had heart failure. He wanted temporary lights, but the city (or maybe MLB) said No. Then, he wanted to move the Cubs' games to St Louis. Playing the games at Comiskey or in Milwaukee, he claimed, would give the AL team a considerable advantage.

All he really wanted was the rights to put in lights without those cranky neighbors getting in the way. I wonder what he thinks of Ricketts extorting all those favors out of the city, and then, whining it's not enough?
The weird scheduling quirk in that series was playing game 3, the first game in San Diego, on Thursday night with no full travel day after Steve Trouts game 2 Wednesday triumph at Wrigley. Eckersley got rocked that night, but he was also into his alcohol problems at that time, so who knows the effect of the tight turnatound.
 
I remember when MLB decided to move those World Series games if the Cubs had won the pennant. Of course that didn't happen but I thought MLB was wrong to do it.

You bring up something interesting. The Cubs and Ricketts. If the Cubs get bounced again or don't even make the playoffs in 2019, things will not all be good in Cub Land. Ricketts is sitting on his hands right now. It is also very interesting he cancelled the portion of the Cubs Convention where the fans ask ownership questions. Talk about ducking people who pay to see your team.

Interesting indeed.
This year will be the 10th edition of the Ricketts owned Cubs.
Their outlay for the ball club & Wrigley Field, payroll, the capital improvements, the land acquisition and the development of the surrounding area has been substantial.
What kind of debt load are they carrying?
Is clan Ricketts making money yet?
 
The weird scheduling quirk in that series was playing game 3, the first game in San Diego, on Thursday night with no full travel day after Steve Trouts game 2 Wednesday triumph at Wrigley. Eckersley got rocked that night, but he was also into his alcohol problems at that time, so who knows the effect of the tight turnatound.
Do you know if Eckersley traveled with the team? I know it was a custom to fly the next day's starting pitcher earlier than the team when there wasn't a day off between games. Sometimes the starting pitcher in game 1 of the series in the next city would spend the night there before that game. I wonder what happened.
 
I know that four's not enough, but eight is too many. You'd likely get a team with two losses, or a team from a weak conference with a good record.

Stick with four. If the Big Ten is left out, they probably deserved it.

Four is not enough. Eight is not enough. Sure, the FCS 24 is way too big, but it works. North Dakota State needs to beat everyone to be sure they are the champions...

Just like the basketball field is bloated at 68 teams now, you want to be able to let everybody in. Get rid of the Power 5 conference title games and leave the lower tier bowl games for the truly desperate. 24 teams, 8 get first round bye, P5 division champions get automatic bids, the other conferences pick their champion as they wish (keep title game, regular season champ, tag, hide & go seek, whatever). That's 14 automatic bids, 10 invitees, until the Big 12 invites two more teams to create proper divisions for 15 auto, 9 invitees. But my twist? Non-P5 conference champions who don't get a bye get home games, meaning some big boy schools are gonna go on the road to the MAC, AAC, Sun Belt, C-USA, and WAC...After Round 1, the higher seed hosts until the semis, which are at neutral sites...

Sure, there might be some mis-matches, and blowouts, but no one will be able to claim "I'm the undefeated National Champion" without playing the contenders...
 
Interesting indeed.
This year will be the 10th edition of the Ricketts owned Cubs.
Their outlay for the ball club & Wrigley Field, payroll, the capital improvements, the land acquisition and the development of the surrounding area has been substantial.
What kind of debt load are they carrying?
Is clan Ricketts making money yet?
While the issue of cash flow is not really publically available, the one thing we can definitely say is that the value of the Cubs has increased dramatically since they purchased. So they've definitely "made money" from a value standpoint.

They talked a lot about some of the things like capital improvements being revenue generators though. Whether or not that's generally true or "not yet" true, I think most fans expectations was that the payrolls were kept artificially low in the lean years, but that money would be made available later. It seems like there should be more room if that's the case.
 
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I am not a Cub fan. But I will definitely watch the games between them and the Cardinals this year. Especially since Bryant acted like a 3rd grader with his comment about St. Louis and Molina reacted like...well...a 3rd grader.
 
I am not a Cub fan. But I will definitely watch the games between them and the Cardinals this year. Especially since Bryant acted like a 3rd grader with his comment about St. Louis and Molina reacted like...well...a 3rd grader.
Did you watch the video? It was tongue and cheek. Bryant is a class act.
 
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Did you watch the video? It was tongue and cheek. Bryant is a class act.
Tongue-in-cheek you mean. I don't believe Molina thinks so. I wouldn't be surprised to see Bryant get drilled. Unless he goes to Molina and explains himself first.
 
Tongue-in-cheek you mean. I don't believe Molina thinks so. I wouldn't be surprised to see Bryant get drilled. Unless he goes to Molina and explains himself first.
I hope so!

I have tickets in STL on 6/2 - section 105, row 2 on the right centerfield wall adjacent to the Cardinals' bullpen. You can literally hear the phone ring when there is a call to the pen.
 
I hope so!

I have tickets in STL on 6/2 - section 105, row 2 on the right centerfield wall adjacent to the Cardinals' bullpen. You can literally hear the phone ring when there is a call to the pen.
Well, you will hear that phone ring if Bryant gets hit. The pitcher who does it will most likely get tossed.
 
If we are going to dredge up sports injustices from 1984, let's also discuss Game 5 of the NLCS. Anyone remember?

Chicago Cubs go up 2-0 in the best-of-five series.
The first two games were played at Wrigley Field.
The next two games were played at Jack Murphy Stadium in San Diego. The Padres won both home games and the series was tied 2-2.

Game 5 was scheduled to be played at Wrigley Field. Or was it?

For 35 years I had the story wrong. Just now as I was writing this, I looked for confirmation of this injustice on line and found this article...

https://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/2013/4/13/4219958/cubs-1984-playoff-myth-dallas-green

Turns out the West Division had home field advantage in a 2-3 series format in 1984. The East Division had home field advantage in odd numbered years. Very well written article to set the record straight for people like me who've had the story wrong for decades.


basically, what happened was:
when I was in the usmc, me and few friends made a bet. was never a cub fan, but in san diego I was a Chicago fan.
so, anyway, we made a bet and had to drink the beer from the city we lived. obviously, I had old style mailed to me from a close friend. he sent me 2 cases, yes the cubs won the 2games the old style lasted.
then we had to drink Budweiser and the cubs lost 3in a row, and yes I had the biggest headache ever from drinking that crap. and now, cannot touch any Budweiser product.
 
Did you watch the video? It was tongue and cheek. Bryant is a class act.
Yea. Bryant was mean in the nicest possible way. Played up to crowd a bit by dissing their biggest rival in the smallest possible way that could even still be considered a diss.

In some ways, Yadi is also probably just playing up to the home crowd as well, but he's definitely the type that you wonder if hes like really serious about it being a grudge.
 
Yea. Bryant was mean in the nicest possible way. Played up to crowd a bit by dissing their biggest rival in the smallest possible way that could even still be considered a diss.

In some ways, Yadi is also probably just playing up to the home crowd as well, but he's definitely the type that you wonder if hes like really serious about it being a grudge.
In some circles, using crude vernacular, you can refer to a guy as a MF'er, basically interchangeable with Dude.

Remember last year Yadi attacked that coach? It was because he said, "You got the MF'er over here framing pitches ..."

Yadi's explanation later was, paraphrasing, "Did you hear what he said I did to my mother? I must defend the honor of the entire Puerto Rican island and sacrifice him to the Rage Gods!"

At least he is consistent.
 
In some circles, using crude vernacular, you can refer to a guy as a MF'er, basically interchangeable with Dude.

Remember last year Yadi attacked that coach? It was because he said, "You got the MF'er over here framing pitches ..."

Yadi's explanation later was, paraphrasing, "Did you hear what he said I did to my mother? I must defend the honor of the entire Puerto Rican island and sacrifice him to the Rage Gods!"

At least he is consistent.
Yadi's explanations are always...interesting.
040617_stlchc_yaddy_chest_med_mhnk29lm.gif
 
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