And blowing up their state budget.
School Vouchers Were Supposed to Save Taxpayer Money. Instead They Blew a Massive Hole in Arizona’s Budget.
Private Schools 7 - Public Schools 1. That’s a wrap!
- Thread starter Nevada Dude
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School Vouchers Were Supposed to Save Taxpayer Money. Instead They Blew a Massive Hole in Arizona’s Budget.
You have some schools that are quite small and should be allowed to play under that 6a level. I do agree though majority should be at least 5a and up.
Guys, don’t shot the messenger, it’s all outcomes based. Honestly if my students are being enriched I could care less if the teacher is a card carrying union member or not. As for transparency, yes it is done and needs to continue to be done. Regarding special needs, I have mixed emotions about mainstreaming students, then again I think there should be several different tracks for kids based on ability rather than teaching to a minimum competency. I am also a strong supporter of the trades and the need for vocational training, noting that it should not be seen as a lesser role in society to be a tradesman in this country. Anyway now I’m just blathering.
Arguments exist on both sides but this one is backed by accounting numbers see below.
Differing views on AZ
Well, the only one left is SHG in 3A because of the waiver rule. Wonder if they’ll petition up to 4A?
I can see you're cherry-picking information. Before I start I do realize teaching is not an easy job and education does start at home. I get all of that. But, parents also have the right to know that when they drop their kid off at school or when the bus picks them up that school will be a learning experience and garbage won't be taught.
You say opportunities are not open to everyone. What would you rather have? A chance to be "chosen" as you say, or no opportunity at all? I am for getting an opportunity to choose a school instead of being locked into one.
One thing I do agree with you on is this. You make a good point when you ask "why wouldn't private schools raise tuition when they know everyone coming in will have an extra $7,500?" It is a good question that has already been answered by the colleges and universities whose tuition has gone through the roof because of no credit check "loans" and "everyone gets money to attend regardless of ability to pay loan amounts back." This is definitely a sticking point that would have to be explored. But I am sure there are answers for that.
When I look at your first four questions I wonder if you really think public schools are completely transparent. A report, any report, is only as good as it's accuracy. I point you to Lincoln-Way district 210 and superintendent Lawrence Wyllie. Do you think his "reports" were accurate? And he got away with it. Dismissed because of "health issues." In other words it doesn't mean he is innocent. What a scam!
Sure, report the same information. Same standards? What? Did I read that right? Certification does not make a good teacher. A piece of paper does not make a good teacher. If you want all this then private school teachers should also have "public funded" retirement plans as well.
What "garbage" has been taught to your children that you have firsthand knowledge of? Sure there are bad apples out there, but there are in ever profession. Are we judging an entire educational system on the grievances of a few parents because they don't agree with some portion of the curriculum?
As much as I would want my child to be "chosen", what happens to the children who are not "chosen"? Where do they go? What school must take them?
Public schools must be transparent by law. You reference one of the most scandalous district administrations in recent history. Dr. Wylie was charged with crimes. The DA chose not to go after him because of his health. (Honestly, just another rich white dude who operates under a different judicial system than the rest of us.)
If we go to that extreme, then what of the Providence President who "supposedly" had R. Kelly behaviors? Messing with minors and they let him walk away? (Morally, I'd let someone walk from financial crimes then from child crimes). Was there transparency when the Brother Rice teacher was murdered by the prostitutes he ordered on backpage.com? Did they have meetings with parents of his students to assure them that they will not let people like this into their organization again? No, they tried to cover it up and stayed silent.
Don't look at private institutions and think they are somehow better than public schools. They just cater to the wealthy or athletic.
You do know that TRS is self-funded, right? Only when the politicians stole money out of the fund and never repaid it, then it went under water.
I think you just have a really bad bone to pick with public schools and public school teachers. Its ok. Public school teachers are used to getting bashed for everything wrong in society.
No one said you have to be certified to be a good teacher. You have to be certified to be a qualified teacher. Do you want unqualified people teaching? Would that make you feel better?
@sac'em What you don’t have time to respond to my logical post about public vs private or the other article link to the AZ voucher report showing cost savings?
You always come here expecting us to appreciate your opinion while you have no respect for anyone else’s. When you’re presented with facts/reports contrary to yours, you discount them as nonsense. Why?
The Teachers' Retirement System is not considered a self-funded retirement plan. A self-funded plan is funded from employee contributions, employer contributions, and investment earnings.
The Teachers' Retirement System is not self-funded. It receives about six billion dollars a year from the State of Illinois.
This article shows both ends of the equation. Small savings up front but way over allocated funds. What seems to be the logic here is that spending per student is less, but students who were not getting money before are now getting money and that would increase costs:
"The state realized education savings even though spending on the Empowerment Scholarship Account program exceeded projections by $92 million, according to the nonpartisan Joint Legislative Budget Committee. The spending on ESAs was offset by lower enrollments in district schools and charter schools, which generated $93 million in savings.
“I think there is a desire amongst a lot of those who are opponents of the program to try to hide the fact that it costs less per student than the public school system,” said Matt Beienburg, the Goldwater Institute’s director of education policy.
“Even as you’ve had more kids joining the ESA program, that offsetting savings from those kids not enrolling in the public school system at taxpayer expense actually means taxpayers spend less,” he added.
In other words, each time a student leaves a district school or a charter school to go to a private school with a voucher, the state saves money, Beienburg said. Beienburg published an analysis of the savings this month.
Other experts argue it costs the state more money when students leave district schools for the voucher program.
A study published by the Grand Canyon Institute earlier this year estimated ESAs have a net cost to the state of hundreds of millions of dollars. Their research suggests most vouchers go to private school kids who stay in private school.
“We estimated about 80% of the children in the ESA program never attended before and the net cost was $330 million dollars. That’s adjusting for what the cost would be if we didn’t have an ESA program, so their math is just wrong,” said Dave Wells, GCI’s research director."
Teachers do not fund their entire retirement. Actually I really don't have a problem with public school teachers in general. Only when they whine, which is way too often for me.
Qualified? To do what? Pass a certification test? Some of the best "teachers" I ever had in life certainly were not "certified" in the world of academia. Several never walked into a college classroom. Again, a piece of paper does not equal qualifications. Teaching is a talent and no piece of paper or study material or certification will supply that talent. To me certification means very little because we have a ton of certified teachers who don't belong in the profession.
Well, if some public school teachers are teaching garbage or forcing their political opinions on students, they get what they deserve. Not all do. But one is too many.
Okay, so what do you prefer, the Audited balance sheet I provided, or a study by Grand Canyon university(a private Christian institution) that claims estimates based of etherial expectations rather than hard facts? I guess you’ll take any source that fits your chosen narrative!
Also why are you focused on funds just going to private schools? I was clear that students would be free to transfer public to public and take their voucher with them. You’d see schools scrambling to keep their students; and possibly even recruit others. This policy puts the students education first and that’s what this should be about. It’s time for school administrators to be held accountable and it’s also time for teachers to be accountable to their students and teach them rather than spout a lesson plan they developed 20 years ago and rinse and repeat yearly.
Also what’s your thoughts on vocational schools and the trades? Not only do we not need everyone running up college debt, we also need the trades to keep this country running!
I don't think making the public education system run like the NCAA Football transfer portal and NIL deals is the best thing to do for society. I don't want my public school to have to compete. I want them to have the resources they need to see success in their building. So, I'll ask again, where do these students go if they don't get accepted into a school of their choice?
Where do they go when they don’t get accepted to Simeon or Whitney Young for example? How about the trades?
So no high school if you can't find a school to accept you? Are you serious? What about elementary? What if you don't get into your school of choice for elementary? Coal Mines?
Perhaps if public schools HAD to compete in an open marketplace for kids, like the private schools do, they would provide a better product. Competition makes us all better.
Please read the first sentence of the second paragraph in the link below.
I will wait for your acknowledgement that my statement was not garbage.
Good God, man. I didn't say that, nor did I even imply it.
I said PERHAPS public schools would be better if they had to compete in the educational marketplace like private schools do.
CTU would like to eliminate Sweetness high and the rest of them. BTW, a lot of political shenanigans involved in getting into the selective enrollment schools. So, the rest of us have to choose between poor neighborhood schools, private school or home schooling.
Possibly, I can only think of a handful of private schools that don’t accept pretty much everyone. The schools that do turn away kids are charging 20k a year to get in. Not playing politics with tax dollars, big difference.
The acceptance rate at Young, Payton, Jones & Lane is a lot lower than those at most private schools in the city of Chicago.
I did not say no high school! Full stop. Do you understand that they have these things called Vocational high schools perhaps the new term career and technology schools where you learn the trades like being an electrician, a draftsman, a plumber, auto mechnic, etc…. There is nothing wrong with working in the trades, in fact most of the trades provide a better salary standard of living and benefits than many college degree outcomes. And finally, stop living on hyperbole with coal mines and elementary school!
Never said anything wrong with the trades. I don't think our society honors these individuals as much as we should. My dad was a tradesman. I asked our local high school to do a signing day for the trade unions (I live in a rural area that has lots of farmers and tradesmen) instead of just the athletes signing day. But, you are going to tell an 8th grader that they have to go to a vocational school because they did not get accepted by the high schools they wanted to go to?
Also, what happens when your local public school is at max capacity and you have not been accepted anywhere you applied? If they must hold spots for all possible local students, how would they plan for staffing, schedules, budgets, etc.? This would need to be known well in advance. Schools could face large swings in population #s that would be a staffing nightmare. There is already a teacher shortage, how much worse do we want it to get?
All of these excuses is what breeds mediocrity in any pursuit a person has for their future. Can we be frank…not every person is an academic, but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t have value. You seem to be of the opinion that telling a kid to consider the trades in 8th grade is an issue…why? It’s not less then going to a college prep school, it’s just different because that students talents are different from the college prep students. I’ll be the first to admit I can’t fix my car, but I can help you recover from a number of ailments, help provide clean water, and helped decode and understand the human genome. None of that makes me any better than you, it just makes me different than you. The world needs everyone to contribute in their own way not your way or my way.
While there's nothing wrong with trades I think grade 8 may be early to track kids one way or other. There are star students who burn out and "bad students" who don't hit their stride til college. I actually know two CEOs of companies (decent size companies/orgs) who weren't star students in HS. They both played D3 sports in college though and one of them said to me that soccer is what kept him engaged throughout his college academic career. If he was a meh 8th grader would he have been put in a traded track that didn't fit him? He loves what he does and is very good at it. Maybe he'd be happy as an tradesman, but he needed time to get his true calling and to apply his gifts in an academic setting. This is particularly true of young men who often aren't exceeding as well in modern academic settings.
And who would be making these decisions? Would you accept a decision from a principal or admissions counselor of a school that says your child is not an academic, and therefore will be taught a skill and sent to the labor force? What happens if parents disagree? Who has the final say?
BTW, students who go to a college prep school can still join a trade.
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