Private Schools 7 - Public Schools 1. That’s a wrap!

[Snetsrak61]

This is all fixed by just putting in a multiplier for only the average weight of your starting linemen. It would be for both public and private schools.

Lets call it the JCA multiplier.

Thought that was the Althoff multiplier 😂

Funny story. We went to a Lineman skills competition summer going into my senior year to a competition that apparently prided itself on "No TEs". Well we got in a bind because the day of one or two guys no showed and we needed a set number to compete. One of our teammates was one of the smallest guys on our team, maybe 120 pounds. And he was neighbors with our center. So we just told him to come along because he was available and we really wanted to compete. We only had 1 or 2 guys who were big OL as-is. The rest of us looked like we were bending the "no TE" rule already. But we just confidently said this kid was one of our OL and competed 😂. We ended up scoring pretty well, no doubt helped by our awesome team 40 time which was already pretty good, but accelerated by this DB, I mean OL.

 

[jwarigaku]

While there's nothing wrong with trades I think grade 8 may be early to track kids one way or other. There are star students who burn out and "bad students" who don't hit their stride til college. I actually know two CEOs of companies (decent size companies/orgs) who weren't star students in HS. They both played D3 sports in college though and one of them said to me that soccer is what kept him engaged throughout his college academic career. If he was a meh 8th grader would he have been put in a traded track that didn't fit him? He loves what he does and is very good at it. Maybe he'd be happy as an tradesman, but he needed time to get his true calling and to apply his gifts in an academic setting. This is particularly true of young men who often aren't exceeding as well in modern academic settings.

And who would be making these decisions? Would you accept a decision from a principal or admissions counselor of a school that says your child is not an academic, and therefore will be taught a skill and sent to the labor force? What happens if parents disagree? Who has the final say?
BTW, students who go to a college prep school can still join a trade.

To both of you,

There is no need to be a “star” or exemplary student/academic to be admitted to a quality school. They might not get into St Igs, or Whitney, or Benet, or New Trier, but there would certainly be space for them in a CP program. Back in the 80s it was common for kids to spend have a day at the Vocational school and have a day at the CP school and then transitioned either way after their Sophomore year. There is a way to make school more competitive with each other to breed quality at all schools but at the moment the system caters to teaching to the lowest common demonator rather than try to enrich the academics and the trades. You both seem to argue that the trades are for the cast off kids that don’t make the cut. I don’t believe that those students are any less worthy than the college bound students and should be just as praised for their successes. Everyone has their talent it’s just finding their individual rough gem and polishing it to the beautiful sparkling Diamond that it truly can become.

 

[Snetsrak61]

To both of you,

There is no need to be a “star” or exemplary student/academic to be admitted to a quality school. They might not get into St Igs, or Whitney, or Benet, or New Trier, but there would certainly be space for them in a CP program. Back in the 80s it was common for kids to spend have a day at the Vocational school and have a day at the CP school and then transitioned either way after their Sophomore year. There is a way to make school more competitive with each other to breed quality at all schools but at the moment the system caters to teaching to the lowest common demonator rather than try to enrich the academics and the trades. You both seem to argue that the trades are for the cast off kids that don’t make the cut. I don’t believe that those students are any less worthy than the college bound students and should be just as praised for their successes. Everyone has their talent it’s just finding their individual rough gem and polishing it to the beautiful sparkling Diamond that it truly can become.

I agree school shouldn't be brought to the "lowest denominator", but there absolutely nothing wrong with a well rounded general education that focuses on broad range of subjects rather than tracking someone into polishing their "rough gem" at a age 14 or even 16 into a profession-specific skill. A good education should be giving you broad learning skills. And our teach to test emphasis is not doing a good job at polishing gems who can be in a college academic track. A lot of kids need more time to figure that out, and it's certainly not only about test specific metrics.

 

[jwarigaku]

I agree school shouldn't be brought to the "lowest denominator", but there absolutely nothing wrong with a well rounded general education that focuses on broad range of subjects rather than tracking someone into polishing their "rough gem" at a age 14 or even 16 into a profession-specific skill. A good education should be giving you broad learning skills. And our teach to test emphasis is not doing a good job at polishing gems who can be in a college academic track. A lot of kids need more time to figure that out, and it's certainly not only about test specific metrics.

Snets,

Chicagoland area graduates, on average, attend a 2 or 4 year post secondary school at a rate of approximately 60%. For the 40% of remaining graduates they need a plan to move forward. Some will plan to enlist in military service, others join the work force at 18. If they don’t have a plan in place by 16(typically end of sophomore year) they face an uphill battle and end up doing things they don’t want to do. Sure it sounds like asking a kid at 14 or 16 to make some tough life choices unfair, but they don’t get any easier by waiting till they are about to graduate. Coddling the kids with this type approach is not helping the child or family. I just really want adults to start acting like adults to their children rather than trying to be their friends! I know people might think I’m being unreasonable, but life is reality and reality unfortunately far too often punches you square in the face. I do agree with you on a well rounded education and that can be, and is accomplished in both CP and Vocational tracked schools.

 

[Snetsrak61]

Snets,

Chicagoland area graduates, on average, attend a 2 or 4 year post secondary school at a rate of approximately 60%. For the 40% of remaining graduates they need a plan to move forward. Some will plan to enlist in military service, others join the work force at 18. If they don’t have a plan in place by 16(typically end of sophomore year) they face an uphill battle and end up doing things they don’t want to do. Sure it sounds like asking a kid at 14 or 16 to make some tough life choices unfair, but they don’t get any easier by waiting till they are about to graduate. Coddling the kids with this type approach is not helping the child or family. I just really want adults to start acting like adults to their children rather than trying to be their friends! I know people might think I’m being unreasonable, but life is reality and reality unfortunately far too often punches you square in the face. I do agree with you on a well rounded education and that can be, and is accomplished in both CP and Vocational tracked schools.

Is there any data to support a difference in career earnings for a vocational track at 14 verse entering a trade at 18 (via apprenticeship or secondary program)? Or is it just vibes you're arguing?

And you were hardly offering up vocational school or trades as some proactive option for some students. It very much came off as secondary when it was pointed out by the other poster that your ideas of vouchers didn't necessarily ensure students an opportunity to use them. I guess the assumption was if they can't find a college prep track that will take their voucherm dollars they must just be ready for the trades? That's what their local public schools should be there to do for them and we shouldn't accept that they can't do that and also track legitimate "vocational" needs too.

 

[Snetsrak61]

The question on vocational school outcomes is a legit question by the way. If there is data to support that the answer is to proactively offer that up as a state level. No voucher required. Just give opt in tracks for the trades and the local schools offering HS and CP track degrees in a traditional setting will likely be left with an advantage to do that and it's in parents choice to track on those vocational tracks or not.

 

[Snetsrak61]

Fwiw I asked my Brother in Law who is a Professor of Economics about this. He studies a lot about educational outcomes but doesn't specialize in Vocational programs (he studies more about closing educational gaps for adults who didn't obtain HS diplomas).

So he pointed me to another PhD to read up on it, which I'm just now browsing. The early browsings seem do indicate a lot of contextual caveats about any one course or the other. But it seems likely that vocational skills are much more pronounced vis a vie being an alternative to those who fail to complete secondary education (not post-secondary). And the impacts are apparently definitive about short and medium outcomes but less clear on long term. There's also gender gaps in the data outcomes (more obvious benefits for males than females).

Which is all to say it's its own category of debate separate from the original voucher point.

Just from my own experience I was lucky enough to complete my entire pre secondary education right before NCLB wracked the way we teach kids by teaching to the test and minimum standards and cutting electives. But that was coursework that included full credit hours for basic electives like gym and music as well as vocational skills like shop, home ec, and computers (a vocational skill sorely lacking from today's non STEM grads in my experience). My honors/CP coursework at Naz probably overprepared me for college honestly. In my experience, vocational skills are part of a well rounded education and probably can be through secondary even though I switched to CP. I don't think we should exclusivelt track kids into one or the other in most cases.

By the way, that mixed vocational setting I had in elementary through 8th was a stable, but very blue collar neighborhood and a single school, tiny district. The investments to get a well rounded educational setting at a local public school are not so insurmountable as to be scrapped for a voucher system. It's just basic priorities.

 

[johnndoe]

Many suburban and exurban public high schools lean heavily on "progressive" education agenda. This tends to continue widening the gap between them and most of the next post-secondary programs, particularly with the "core" subjects. This in terms of: admission, content, delivery, expectations, grade inflation and pushing students along who are not ready. Too often in the public ed sector, work-arounds to: getting into the classroom, doing the work completely/on time and executing correctly on the assessment instrument that follows, rule the day. The same coddling alternative pathways that exist throughout many public high schools are not options at the JC, university or apprentice entrance programs. I will acknowledge that COVID-era policies accelerated the relaxing of standards and many of these students are still trying to progress through the systems, but the "genie is now out of the bottle."

 

[jwarigaku]

Fwiw I asked my Brother in Law who is a Professor of Economics about this. He studies a lot about educational outcomes but doesn't specialize in Vocational programs (he studies more about closing educational gaps for adults who didn't obtain HS diplomas).

So he pointed me to another PhD to read up on it, which I'm just now browsing. The early browsings seem do indicate a lot of contextual caveats about any one course or the other. But it seems likely that vocational skills are much more pronounced vis a vie being an alternative to those who fail to complete secondary education (not post-secondary). And the impacts are apparently definitive about short and medium outcomes but less clear on long term. There's also gender gaps in the data outcomes (more obvious benefits for males than females).

Which is all to say it's its own category of debate separate from the original voucher point.

Just from my own experience I was lucky enough to complete my entire pre secondary education right before NCLB wracked the way we teach kids by teaching to the test and minimum standards and cutting electives. But that was coursework that included full credit hours for basic electives like gym and music as well as vocational skills like shop, home ec, and computers (a vocational skill sorely lacking from today's non STEM grads in my experience). My honors/CP coursework at Naz probably overprepared me for college honestly. In my experience, vocational skills are part of a well rounded education and probably can be through secondary even though I switched to CP. I don't think we should exclusivelt track kids into one or the other in most cases.

By the way, that mixed vocational setting I had in elementary through 8th was a stable, but very blue collar neighborhood and a single school, tiny district. The investments to get a well rounded educational setting at a local public school are not so insurmountable as to be scrapped for a voucher system. It's just basic priorities.

Snets,

You keep trying to make it sound like the Trades are only for people who can’t achieve at a college prep “level” of schooling. I know plenty of people in the trades that could get that illustrious PhD in EE, but find happiness in being an electrician. I think you need to stop consulting Academics and placing their opinions on high and look at the entire world around you. While I have a bunch of letters behind my name, more often then not BS = Bull$hit, MS = More $hit, and PhD = Piled higher and deeper. Kids need opportunities, parenting, and people around them to help with advise and mentoring these young adults. Not people telling them to find their own ways and everything will come up roses. Life is a balancing act and I want to see Everyone have equal opportunities! These kids stuck in failing schools with teachers only collectIng paychecks and nothing more need to be lifted up. Competition for the teacher to keep their school open and retain their job needs to be put in place, that’s the way most jobs work, its produce or perish, not publish or perish!

 

[Snetsrak61]

Snets,

You keep trying to make it sound like the Trades are only for people who can’t achieve at a college prep “level” of schooling.

I've not at any single point claimed a trades person is synonymous with a lower intellect or anything of the sort. Now you are just launching into made up reasons to... lecture I guess?

 

[Snetsrak61]

It's not about elevating one career choice as inherently better than another from like a moral or something standpoint. It's about people getting a chance to improve their financial well-being long . Post secondary education still does really well at that (if you complete it - there's a real crises of infldebted folks who never even got the degree because they got tracked into something they ultimately shouldn't have).

So it's true college isnt for everyone and it isn't strictly about aptitude (especially how we measure it in the past 25 ish years). Early tracking vocation seems to no better than a one sized first all college prep world view. Teach the whole person and don't try and determine their career earnings path at 14.

If someone is just happy in a lower paying field, fine too. But it's a choice, not telling Jr at 14 that his future earnings is determinitive. I mean there are certainly cases where that's obvious and we should be realistic, but not as a general rule for most general population. That gem is still being polished and is unclear, as you said.

 

[jwarigaku]

It's not about elevating one career choice as inherently better than another from like a moral or something standpoint. It's about people getting a chance to improve their financial well-being long . Post secondary education still does really well at that (if you complete it - there's a real crises of infldebted folks who never even got the degree because they got tracked into something they ultimately shouldn't have).

So it's true college isnt for everyone and it isn't strictly about aptitude (especially how we measure it in the past 25 ish years). Early tracking vocation seems to no better than a one sized first all college prep world view. Teach the whole person and don't try and determine their career earnings path at 14.

If someone is just happy in a lower paying field, fine too. But it's a choice, not telling Jr at 14 that his future earnings is determinitive. I mean there are certainly cases where that's obvious and we should be realistic, but not as a general rule for most general population. That gem is still being polished and is unclear, as you said.

I know many more electricians, plumbers, carpenters, etc in their early 30s making 6 figures here in PA than college grads in their peer group, and they don’t have 50-100k in student debt. Your brazen assumption that these career paths earn less is just not well supported. Couple that fact with a severe shortage in the trades and 50% of college grads not working in, or finding jobs in their degree of study and your telling me helping anyone find happiness in the trades is doing them a disservice? Why? And please don’t try to redirect, answer that simple question of why the trades are a bad choice or less honorable?

 

[Snetsrak61]

I know many more electricians, plumbers, carpenters, etc in their early 30s making 6 figures here in PA than college grads in their peer group, and they don’t have 50-100k in student debt. Your brazen assumption that these career paths earn less is just not well supported. Couple that fact with a severe shortage in the trades and 50% of college grads not working in, or finding jobs in their degree of study and your telling me helping anyone find happiness in the trades is doing them a disservice? Why? And please don’t try to redirect, answer that simple question of why the trades are a bad choice or less honorable?

You are so full of crap man. Your "simple question" is a straw man that has absolutely nothing to do with anything I've typed on here.

 

[SiuCubFan8]

There is a shortage of tradesmen, no doubt.
Society has made it a lesser career path than being a history major (sorry for the shot at history majors) lol. Most folks in the trades are 10 years into paying down their mortgage before some have put a dent into student loans. It’s a great option after HS, wish more would consider the option.

 

[Snetsrak61]

There is a shortage of tradesmen, no doubt.
Society has made it a lesser career path than being a history major (sorry for the shot at history majors) lol. Most folks in the trades are 10 years into paying down their mortgage before some have put a dent into student loans. It’s a great option after HS, wish more would consider the option.

Absolutely a valid, worthwhile, and economically viable option for someone entering workforce.

Like many fields though, that economic advantage isn't necessarily resolute. It is in some ways time specific to now because labor WAS de-emphasized (or college track over-emphasized) to where supply was/is too low. That can always inadvertently be overcorrected too though if supply shoots up and demand stays same that economic benefit can shrink.

Probably more so than anytime in history the workforce is gonna need to be flexible to stay ahead. Compared to 100 or even 50 years ago people will move professions throughout their life more than they did before (not for all professions). Education should prepare them and give them broad skills to deal with that. Some trades will probably be stable (plumbing is probably plumbing forever) but a lot of vocational skills will be more tech based and industry specific to specific points and market demands and need to fluctuate over 40 year of a career.

 

[jwarigaku]

Absolutely a valid, worthwhile, and economically viable option for someone entering workforce.

Like many fields though, that economic advantage isn't necessarily resolute. It is in some ways time specific to now because labor WAS de-emphasized (or college track over-emphasized) to where supply was/is too low. That can always inadvertently be overcorrected too though if supply shoots up and demand stays same that economic benefit can shrink.

Probably more so than anytime in history the workforce is gonna need to be flexible to stay ahead. Compared to 100 or even 50 years ago people will move professions throughout their life more than they did before (not for all professions). Education should prepare them and give them broad skills to deal with that. Some trades will probably be stable (plumbing is probably plumbing forever) but a lot of vocational skills will be more tech based and industry specific to specific points and market demands and need to fluctuate over 40 year of a career.

So first straw man, now you agree, okay whatever.

I have all the letters after my name, probably more than I should, but my cousins in Connecticut, both tool and die guys 56 and 54, have had great success from the 80s going forward. They started in a mom and pop shop, eventually purchased it, and grew it into a large shop serving Sikorsky helicopter with a top line in excess of $100MM/year. They bootstrapped the company with $100k each(saved by the time they where 25) and now employee more than 100 people and are begging for trades graduates. They pay kids from the local Vocational High school in Milford $30/hr part time to learn the craft and start their journeyman’s work at 16(4hrs of school/day + 4hrs work/day contact learning).

Candy coat it all you like but you’re looking down your nose at the trades. I went the college route and was blessed with good advise and direction, but still spent way to much money and time playing and researching in college in the Chemistry, Physics, and Biological sciences and then capped it off with an MBA. I make a good living and have been able to take care of my kids and others, and will never say anything is wrong with helping kids redirect to areas where they can succeed rather than pushing them to the current trendy next big thing. I won’t even start on how I feel about majors that can’t earn a living after college other than to say we need art history, fine arts, history etc but the students that study those topics need to be at the top of those fields and I think they should go to college for free because they are the best of the best regardless of their ability to pay.

Enjoy the rest of your day! I have a Christmas party to attend and then a kick off at 8 pm eastern

 

[Snetsrak61]

So first straw man, now you agree, okay whatever.
....
Candy coat it all you like but you’re looking down your nose at the trades.

I'd seriously suggest that you should go back and re-read everything I've typed and take it literally and at face value. You've created me as an apparent boogeyman and it's beyond silly at this stage.

The "trades are a bad idea and not honorable" strawman question was in zero way similar to any belief I've typed.

My initial comment about tracking kids even talked about the inverse about tracking kids the other way to CP not being better, which I reaffirmed through personal anecdote and belief. In zero way did I state a preference for one. Its been about allowing young adults the time to see through options before closing doors. I feel like you are projecting something on me and it's either because your being unintentionally obtuse or trying to prove a point. Not sure which!

 

[johnndoe]

I would challenge ANYONE to sit for the entrance exam to become an APPRENTICE CANDIDATE for the electrician trade given by a local. Sections on: math (fractions, decimals, some %, identifying/completing number sequences, a few "word problems"), reading comprehension, mechanical reasoning and paper folding/hole-punching. The latter is a bizarre spatial assessment that is actually part of the Dental Aptitude Test, although to a lesser complexity. Finally, the standard for this multiple-choice battery is up in the 80-85% range to be among the limited admission numbers actually getting into the apprentice program. All the above as reported to me by a test-taker of multiple trials in the very recent past.

 

[jwarigaku]

I'd seriously suggest that you should go back and re-read everything I've typed and take it literally and at face value. You've created me as an apparent boogeyman and it's beyond silly at this stage.

The "trades are a bad idea and not honorable" strawman question was in zero way similar to any belief I've typed.

My initial comment about tracking kids even talked about the inverse about tracking kids the other way to CP not being better, which I reaffirmed through personal anecdote and belief. In zero way did I state a preference for one. Its been about allowing young adults the time to see through options before closing doors. I feel like you are projecting something on me and it's either because your being unintentionally obtuse or trying to prove a point. Not sure which!

I only have a few minutes and limited signal here at the game but 1) I will reread the entire thread and 2) I’m not trying to be obtuse or just trying to make a point, I’m just fervently opposed to putting a kid in school, pushing them through the system without plan, then send the kid out in to the world unprepared for a way to find success in that world.

 

[sac'em]

To both of you,

There is no need to be a “star” or exemplary student/academic to be admitted to a quality school. They might not get into St Igs, or Whitney, or Benet, or New Trier, but there would certainly be space for them in a CP program. Back in the 80s it was common for kids to spend have a day at the Vocational school and have a day at the CP school and then transitioned either way after their Sophomore year. There is a way to make school more competitive with each other to breed quality at all schools but at the moment the system caters to teaching to the lowest common demonator rather than try to enrich the academics and the trades. You both seem to argue that the trades are for the cast off kids that don’t make the cut. I don’t believe that those students are any less worthy than the college bound students and should be just as praised for their successes. Everyone has their talent it’s just finding their individual rough gem and polishing it to the beautiful sparkling Diamond that it truly can become.

I don't think either of us is arguing that the trades are for the cast off kids. What you are arguing for is what the current system is set up to do.
Our public education system wasn’t created to provide the highest level of academic achievement for every student, but rather to ensure that every student gets a basic education. The main goal is to teach the essential skills like reading, writing, basic math, and science. This helps students become responsible citizens and prepares them to be part of the workforce.
For students who are ready for more challenging academics, there are honors and AP courses. These classes offer harder content and help students get ready for college or specialized careers.
The main purpose of public schools is to make sure all students, no matter their background, have access to the basic knowledge they need to succeed in life.
A strong public education system is crucial for creating a capable workforce, which is important for the economy. Without it, we could end up with more low-skilled jobs (front-end manufacturing), which would hurt middle and lower-class families. Public education provides everyone with a basic level of knowledge that helps them succeed in the world, regardless of their family’s income.
In this way, public education helps make sure everyone has at least a basic understanding of important skills, helping to keep our economy strong and our society fair.

 

[olderbytheminute]

They have tried different things (multiplier, success factor, etc) but none of them work to accurately place teams.

Split them into public and private like many other states and shrink down classes. That’s the best scenario for everyone for a more leveled plying field. They are HS kids, not professional athletes.

Strictly guessing, but any discussion about yanking private schools out of the football players is almost assuredly going to coincide with efforts to do the same with sports such as girls volleyball and girls basketball.
In the past 4 fall seasons, in Class 3A & 4A (biggest schools) volleyball, private schools have occupied 11 of the 16 spots available to play in state championship games.
In the past 3 winter seasons in Class 3A & 4A (biggest schools) basketball, private schools have occupied 6 of the 12 spots available to play in state championship games.
So clearlyl, football isn't the only sport in which the playing field/court is not considered even.
What I find interesting is that girls basketball and girls volleyball are sports in which club programs thrive whereas football basically has no club program.
Also, boys basketball and boys volleyball are not dominated by private schools, even though the girls programs in those sports clearly are.
It just seems like if the IHSA wants separate classes for private schools in football, it's going to have to go in that direction in other sports as well.

 

[crusader_of_90]

Snets,

Chicagoland area graduates, on average, attend a 2 or 4 year post secondary school at a rate of approximately 60%. For the 40% of remaining graduates they need a plan to move forward. Some will plan to enlist in military service, others join the work force at 18. If they don’t have a plan in place by 16(typically end of sophomore year) they face an uphill battle and end up doing things they don’t want to do. Sure it sounds like asking a kid at 14 or 16 to make some tough life choices unfair, but they don’t get any easier by waiting till they are about to graduate. Coddling the kids with this type approach is not helping the child or family. I just really want adults to start acting like adults to their children rather than trying to be their friends! I know people might think I’m being unreasonable, but life is reality and reality unfortunately far too often punches you square in the face. I do agree with you on a well rounded education and that can be, and is accomplished in both CP and Vocational tracked schools.

Agreed - no coddling.

Was told by a wise man when my girls were new to the world: You are not raising children, the end product must be autonomous adults.

I tell all new parents the same thing.

 

[Dave Brody]

Strictly guessing, but any discussion about yanking private schools out of the football players is almost assuredly going to coincide with efforts to do the same with sports such as girls volleyball and girls basketball.
In the past 4 fall seasons, in Class 3A & 4A (biggest schools) volleyball, private schools have occupied 11 of the 16 spots available to play in state championship games.
In the past 3 winter seasons in Class 3A & 4A (biggest schools) basketball, private schools have occupied 6 of the 12 spots available to play in state championship games.
So clearlyl, football isn't the only sport in which the playing field/court is not considered even.
What I find interesting is that girls basketball and girls volleyball are sports in which club programs thrive whereas football basically has no club program.
Also, boys basketball and boys volleyball are not dominated by private schools, even though the girls programs in those sports clearly are.
It just seems like if the IHSA wants separate classes for private schools in football, it's going to have to go in that direction in other sports as well.

Can you do a bigger sample size - say 10 years? 3 and 4 are too small. Also - I think there’s a Covid effect - many students switched to privates beginning 2020.

 

[olderbytheminute]

Can you do a bigger sample size - say 10 years? 3 and 4 are too small. Also - I think there’s a Covid effect - many students switched to privates beginning 2020.

Here you go:
in last 10 years of play including this fall:
Girls volleyball class 3A & 4A (biggest classes) 40 possible finalists. 27 of them were private schools
Girls basketball class 3A & 4A (biggest classes) 40 possible finalists. 13 of them were private schools.
Girls softball class 3A & 4A (biggest classes) 40 possible finalists. 9 were private schools.
Boys basketball class 3A & 4A (biggest classes) 40 possible finalists. 10 were private schools.
Boys baseball class 3A & 4A (biggest classes) 40 possible finalists. 16 were private schools.
Girls soccer all 3 classes. 60 possible finalists. 22 were private schools.
Boys soccer all 3 classes. 60 possible finalists. 28 were private schools (the 28 does not include Chicago's Solario Academy. I don't know if that's public or private).

 

[Dave Brody]

Here you go:
in last 10 years of play including this fall:
Girls volleyball class 3A & 4A (biggest classes) 40 possible finalists. 27 of them were private schools
Girls basketball class 3A & 4A (biggest classes) 40 possible finalists. 13 of them were private schools.
Girls softball class 3A & 4A (biggest classes) 40 possible finalists. 9 were private schools.
Boys basketball class 3A & 4A (biggest classes) 40 possible finalists. 10 were private schools.
Boys baseball class 3A & 4A (biggest classes) 40 possible finalists. 16 were private schools.
Girls soccer all 3 classes. 60 possible finalists. 22 were private schools.
Boys soccer all 3 classes. 60 possible finalists. 28 were private schools (the 28 does not include Chicago's Solario Academy. I don't know if that's public or private).

That’s more inline with a bigger SS. We may be feeling the Covid effect over the last 3-4 years. It will start to normalize.

 

[jwarigaku]

I don't think either of us is arguing that the trades are for the cast off kids. What you are arguing for is what the current system is set up to do.
Our public education system wasn’t created to provide the highest level of academic achievement for every student, but rather to ensure that every student gets a basic education. The main goal is to teach the essential skills like reading, writing, basic math, and science. This helps students become responsible citizens and prepares them to be part of the workforce.
For students who are ready for more challenging academics, there are honors and AP courses. These classes offer harder content and help students get ready for college or specialized careers.
The main purpose of public schools is to make sure all students, no matter their background, have access to the basic knowledge they need to succeed in life.
A strong public education system is crucial for creating a capable workforce, which is important for the economy. Without it, we could end up with more low-skilled jobs (front-end manufacturing), which would hurt middle and lower-class families. Public education provides everyone with a basic level of knowledge that helps them succeed in the world, regardless of their family’s income.
In this way, public education helps make sure everyone has at least a basic understanding of important skills, helping to keep our economy strong and our society fair.

Sac’um,

If they are prepared for the workforce what work are they to do with the Basics? Basic math does not prepare you for College or really the trades as evidenced by the OP’s post about sitting for the apprentice test.

@snets,

I may have judged you a bit harsher than I should have as I thought you were joining yourself to Sac’ums comments which tend to IMHO poopoo the trades. I just want to see kids prepared for the world and this general basic education pushes kids through the system unprepared for said world. Apologies!

 

[crusader_of_90]

Even announcers are biased toward Catholic schools.

http://amp.awfulannouncing.com/high-school/analyst-pulled-championship-football-broadcast-bias.html

 

[Snetsrak61]

Sac’um,

If they are prepared for the workforce what work are they to do with the Basics? Basic math does not prepare you for College or really the trades as evidenced by the OP’s post about sitting for the apprentice test.

@snets,

I may have judged you a bit harsher than I should have as I thought you were joining yourself to Sac’ums comments which tend to IMHO poopoo the trades. I just want to see kids prepared for the world and this general basic education pushes kids through the system unprepared for said world. Apologies!

I really don't think sac'um was poo pooing the trades as hard as you think either to be honest. Some of the language (like the mines) was obviously hyperbolic, but even he had posted clear language with support of trades.

At the end of the day, I think there's plenty that you and I still wouldn't agree on. But I just want kids to be given options and with their parents guidance to make the choice to make the best option. Maybe that is some state run vocational programs (whether single track secondary programs aimed at those with highest risk of failing to obtain a traditional HS diploma or post secondary investments in Community College programs that cater to trades). But I'd defer to HS diploma being the baseline and that more time in middle and high is spent on a wide range of skills which probably should include some basic and standard vocational skills (if none other, at least computer and typing skills please, for all track kids) as a standard and not elective, and full credit. Current laws really damper some of the ability to do that though.

But trades encompasses A LOT of different stuff. I think these convos sometimes veer to spending a lot of time on seemingly unicorn ones. But a lot are just normal jobs that very clearly have limited lifetime earnings potential. Which is fine, but I think most people would want to explore the option of choosing potentially higher earning career tracks and make that decision. And I heard an interesting convo recently which is that a lot of "underperforming" desk job people would turn their back very quickly on many of the higher paying trades once they saw the physical demands (often long term physical toll). One good example was people finding out recently how much UPS workers were making in their latest contract negotiations. And then the realization from those same people that is a very physically demanding career. My neighbor made a great honest living as a garbage man. Secure earnings, great pension, perfectly respectable living... And a back that is totally wrecked and has needed many surgeries. There are serious risks too. The full pro/con picture of any route and not the romanticized version is key for every person to make an informed decision. Obviously on the College track that's the serious cost and risk of debt (especially if you fail to complete the degree). Especially for what is often money spent on not really critical to the educational experience (the college lifestyle $).

Other times the risk is just instability of work. Early in his career my dad worked in high rise construction. When it was "on" they pay was REALLY good. But it was lots of long days/weeks at 1.5x pay and then would dry up until the next job came, which was uncertain. He did that for about a decade before choosing a more steady but lower ceiling income in fire/paramedic once he had 4 kids. Some trades are like that and it's a lot to ask someone even at 18 or 23 to consider that long term commitment. So flexibility and broad skills IS really important imo. By the way, he's one of those people who could have gone the desk route. Had a college degree thanks to sports. Spent one year in insurance and hated it and never went back. He ultimately really loved paramedic especially because he felt called to serve people and that allowed it.

So no I have zero disdain for trades. And I've also seen first hand the overly pro college track pushed. I was probably always going to be that college track and my mom especially pushed against my desire to explore non college routes like military (including as early as my concern of going to a CP school at Naz even though 3 siblings before me all had). I ultimately did explore all options and while a college degree has served me really well I can also say I didn't really know what I was doing or wanting to do even at 18 making those decisions. There's "not coddling" kids, but there's also just laying out options totally honestly and letting them learn and potentially fail a little too. Definite balance.

 

[sac'em]

Sac’um,

If they are prepared for the workforce what work are they to do with the Basics? Basic math does not prepare you for College or really the trades as evidenced by the OP’s post about sitting for the apprentice test.

@snets,

I may have judged you a bit harsher than I should have as I thought you were joining yourself to Sac’ums comments which tend to IMHO poopoo the trades. I just want to see kids prepared for the world and this general basic education pushes kids through the system unprepared for said world. Apologies!

Think of public education as a concrete foundation. Whatever you can build on top of that foundation is up to you. The gov't just makes sure that you have a foundation to build on. That is all. Want to be a doctor, good, build it. Want to be an electrician, good, build it. What I do not want is a system where K-12 administrators decide who gets a foundation and who doesn't.

 

[33corndog33]

Here is the new solution rather than the current success factor or enrollment multiplier. All non-boundaried schools can have no more than a 53 man varsity roster. Teams shall submit an accurate roster, including names and numbers, to the officiating crew before each contest. In addition there shall not be any 2 way players which includes any combination of Offense, Defense, and Special teams.

 

[Dave Brody]

Here is the new solution rather than the current success factor or enrollment multiplier. All non-boundaried schools can have no more than a 53 man varsity roster. Teams shall submit an accurate roster, including names and numbers, to the officiating crew before each contest. In addition there shall not be any 2 way players which includes any combination of Offense, Defense, and Special teams.

Do you want to limit the varsity to only Jr’s and Sr’s too? Or are you ok with Soph’s and an occasional Fr to play at the Varsity level?

 

[Travelin Fan]

Here is the new solution rather than the current success factor or enrollment multiplier. All non-boundaried schools can have no more than a 53 man varsity roster. Teams shall submit an accurate roster, including names and numbers, to the officiating crew before each contest. In addition there shall not be any 2 way players which includes any combination of Offense, Defense, and Special teams.

As a public school guy who got his ass handed to him in the semi-finals by private school attending Mr. Basketball in my state growing up, words cannot express how much I loathe this idea.

This seems like an overreach to me. Despite the ever-growing professionalization of high school sports, the purpose, at least ostensibly, remains for kids to grow; learn; develop in ways outside the classroom - an opportunity that should be afforded to all students at a school, whether that be public or private. Student A grows up mildly un-interested in sports, but decides he/she is missing out on something from their HS experience, senior year decides they wants to play football, they aren't a stud so they can't play with their buddies? Don't like it.

I could also see the Law of Unintended Consequences rearing its head here. What this does is ramp up the intensity for schools/coaches to recruit elite players, not tamp it down. "I can only have 53 players, I better make sure they are all upper echelon..."

 

[HRCJR]

Here is the new solution rather than the current success factor or enrollment multiplier. All non-boundaried schools can have no more than a 53 man varsity roster. Teams shall submit an accurate roster, including names and numbers, to the officiating crew before each contest. In addition there shall not be any 2 way players which includes any combination of Offense, Defense, and Special teams.

So LA, Mt. Carmel, Naz would basically be playing its first string the whole game regardless of the opponent?

 

[SiuCubFan8]

Here is the new solution rather than the current success factor or enrollment multiplier. All non-boundaried schools can have no more than a 53 man varsity roster. Teams shall submit an accurate roster, including names and numbers, to the officiating crew before each contest. In addition there shall not be any 2 way players which includes any combination of Offense, Defense, and Special teams.

No thanks…

 

[Snetsrak61]

So LA, Mt. Carmel, Naz would basically be playing its first string the whole game regardless of the opponent?

I'm just a simple accountant, but I think second string goes to at least 44. So you'd even have 9 3rd stringers

(but no the original idea is very weird and bad idea).

I just peaked on Naz's max prep page out of curiosity. It's pretty messy and obviously self reported, but it seems like a normal year might be mid 60s, maybe up to low 70s in good years? But yea, don't see much benefit from cutting kid 54-70 in terms of balance. Those kids are at that school because that's where they/thier parents want an education. They aren't being held away from their local public school that needs help balancing the sports talent scales.

I *think* CCL does use football participant numbers in their own division classification though. By all means, IHSA should ask them and find out more about that concept and how it's applied.

 

[Travelin Fan]

I'm just a simple accountant, but I think second string goes to at least 44. So you'd even have 9 3rd stringers

(but no the original idea is very weird and bad idea).

I just peaked on Naz's max prep page out of curiosity. It's pretty messy and obviously self reported, but it seems like a normal year might be mid 60s, maybe up to low 70s in good years? But yea, don't see much benefit from cutting kid 54-70 in terms of balance. Those kids are at that school because that's where they/thier parents want an education. They aren't being held away from their local public school that needs help balancing the sports talent scales.

I *think* CCL does use football participant numbers in their own division classification though. By all means, IHSA should ask them and find out more about that concept and how it's applied.

Not to mention that "you can only play one way" stipulation suggested by OP. Now you are micromanaging a players ability to demonstrate value to potential college recruiters.

Respect for throwing out your thoughts, but this ain't it Corndog

 

[jwarigaku]

Think of public education as a concrete foundation. Whatever you can build on top of that foundation is up to you. The gov't just makes sure that you have a foundation to build on. That is all. Want to be a doctor, good, build it. Want to be an electrician, good, build it. What I do not want is a system where K-12 administrators decide who gets a foundation and who doesn't.

Sac’em,

If that concrete was a solid base I’m good with that. The problem really is that the foundation is not on bedrock but rather quicksand because of the way the students get pushed through the system. Compound that push through the system with it occurring at a higher rate in the failing districts and it points to the core of my complaint. There is no accountability and competition brings accountability into the fold. I think ultimately we both want the kids to have better, you seem to think the current system is good while I feel it tends to be good only in some places and horrible in others, and that those others tend to be in places that can least afford deficiencies or kids falling through the cracks in the system. We probably are much closer to agreement then either of us think, so I’m asking you to look, see, acknowledge, and tell me how you correct the failures in the system.

 

[Dave Brody]

Not to mention that "you can only play one way" stipulation suggested by OP. Now you are micromanaging a players ability to demonstrate value to potential college recruiters.

Respect for throwing out your thoughts, but this ain't it Corndog

The ideas of limiting / constraining the privates at every turn are getting outta control

 

[ramblinman]

The ideas of limiting / constraining the privates at every turn are getting outta control

Some of their "solutions" are mildly amusing.

 

[Travelin Fan]

Some of their "solutions" are mildly amusing.

Don’t lump us all in with that alien…