He said how privates would like having boundaries. So I was asking how big would he suggest.
IHSA Proposals Are Out
- Thread starter DJrodey24
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Again, you have to look at the landscape with a new lens.
Let's take the MetroEast. Althoff now offers spring ball (and baseball). You think the next Tyler Macon leaves Trinity for East Saint or does he keep heading east and stop at 5401 W. Main? The stud at Emge, does he ask Mom and Dad to use Grandma's address to go to East Side or does he say in Belleville? Or the next Adoree our of Central Junior High?
When Althoff collects that talent - taking from O'Fallon, East, West, East Side, Cahokia ... how sexy is the SW conference? Flyers will have to play eight games in Chicago land - and one at Althoff - to have a decent schedule. And remember, we've sucked away the talent that somehow finds its way to 4901 State Street.
THAT level of talent will compete all-day long up here in Cook and the collar counties.
And don't think for a moment that the Courthouse Crews (federal and county) won't fund this type of endeavor.
Set boundaries the same as the local public school.....how about Joliet’s public schools district for JCA? I assume they have a public school. Hhow many titles have they won? Anyone from outside that district can sure enough go to JCA and have a great education....but no football. Should be the same rules...or split em up.
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Listen I could care less what they decide,Just a suggestion that the prep bowl back in the day drew the largest crowd ever to watch a HS football game ever in Illinois,I want what is best for all HS football players.My older son won a 8A state championship with public team,and I played for Catholic HS.So I just enjoy watching great HS football!
Love the fact that the Carlinville proposal includes:
" *These results have not been double checked"
I would imagine most high school research papers have higher standards than that. Whats the bar for getting a proposal on the ballot?
" *These results have not been double checked"
I would imagine most high school research papers have higher standards than that. Whats the bar for getting a proposal on the ballot?
Again, the question is pretty simple.......(Yes or No).
On the field, does a team with no geographic boundaries have a competitive advantage over a team that has geographic boundaries, regardless of the justification?
Publics that have the most fortunate boundaries?
Care to elaborate a bit more on that one, I’m interested in your thoughts.
No. Tuition negates that advantage.
You silly publics keep forgetting about tuition. You think you can just pose simple questions like that, try to limit answers to either yes or no, and NOT acknowledge that private schools do not offer tax supported education. Sorry, but I'm not buying it.
If private schools didn't have to charge for tuition, there would be a whole lot more of them than there are now, and they would enroll way more kids than they do now.
Come back and ask that yes or no question when private schools don't have to charge tuition.
Think Park Ridge, and look up Maine East football and Maine South football and compare. Think Mokena/Frankfort and look up LWE and the other Lincoln Ways, compare.
I love MS and LWE football. My point with that statement is once you make one thing “fair” then you figure out the next thing to make “fair”, then the next so on and so forth
Again how did Weber do last year? Oh, they were at a disadvantage and had to close 25 years ago because they couldn’t go to the tax payer for more money. St. Francis de Sales, Mendel? Holy Cross Should I go on? How about the 2012 undefeated Marian Catholic Freshman team that became the Great 2015 HF team. Tell me more about all these advantages you speak of.
There are 12 programs that dominate the landscape at any given time in HS football, in the 70s it was st. Laurence, Deerfield etc. 80s MC, Richards etc. 90s MC WWS, now it’s LA LWE and so on and so forth.
Why do we have to overreact and overreach with this unattainable goal of perfect fairness?
2012 Marian Catholic undefeated Freshman Team became part of the 2015 Great HF team
Is there a bball thread ever about separation?
Seems like almost all publics in the super sectionals and finals.
Privates bring bball players in too so why is it one sided the publics way? Ones around here can't even get out to the sectional because of the public schools.
Seems like almost all publics in the super sectionals and finals.
Privates bring bball players in too so why is it one sided the publics way? Ones around here can't even get out to the sectional because of the public schools.
Right, it's not always a type of school thing but a better program, player thing.
Man, why the need to hurl insults? Maybe I’m just not educated enough to be on your level of understanding......
Thanks for putting me in my place.
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It’s not perfect no, but life isn’t fair. There are definite advantages and disadvantages to both. These young men learn more about themselves and life in a loss then they do a win. I’m not saying you should want to lose but you get the point. Sometimes there’s someone better, in the real world we can’t just separate them out of our lives, otherwise my post school life would have gone much differently.
You want current or historic? I can name dozens.
Brian Toal- Don Bosco
Brian Cushing- Bergen
Jabril Peppers- Paramus
Minkah Fitzpatrick- St Peters
I have been avoiding this thread but here goes.
I just love how teams like JCA, Montini, etc. are given NO CREDIT for coming up with systems that work, an offense that grinds people down, one of the best weight training programs through Rudy's, possibly the best OL coach in high school football, great coaches that are promoted from within and many other hard earned advantages.
All the crying Public schools see are 2-3 teams winning too much. Well why don't you improve your system and say try the Double Wing and grind the ball. What you're doing now doesn't work try something new, duh.
All this crying about we aren't winning OUR share of trophies so gimmie, gimmie, gimmie, I want some trophies.
JCA wins with dominating Offensive Lines that DO NOT consist of D-1 prospects, they learn JCA's system and run it to perfection and your little feelings are hurt. Well my violin is playing your song.
You'll actually enjoy winning IF YOU EARN it instead of having it handed to you.
I just love how teams like JCA, Montini, etc. are given NO CREDIT for coming up with systems that work, an offense that grinds people down, one of the best weight training programs through Rudy's, possibly the best OL coach in high school football, great coaches that are promoted from within and many other hard earned advantages.
All the crying Public schools see are 2-3 teams winning too much. Well why don't you improve your system and say try the Double Wing and grind the ball. What you're doing now doesn't work try something new, duh.
All this crying about we aren't winning OUR share of trophies so gimmie, gimmie, gimmie, I want some trophies.
JCA wins with dominating Offensive Lines that DO NOT consist of D-1 prospects, they learn JCA's system and run it to perfection and your little feelings are hurt. Well my violin is playing your song.
You'll actually enjoy winning IF YOU EARN it instead of having it handed to you.
Regarding Loyola winning most of the private championships. Why do you all assume it would be one big class? There are enough private’s of all sizes to have playoffs with 3 classes of say 16 team brackets. You all just think about the 24 CCL/ESCC teams and don’t think about those like Decatur St Theresa, Sterling Newman, Rockford Lutheran, Rockford Christian, Chicago Christian, Walther, Boylan, Hope Academy, Freeport Aquin, Guerin, Ottawa marquette, Bloomington Catholic, Aurora Catholic, the entire Metro Suburban conference of private’s with locals like ICCP, St francis but also those like Elgin St Edward, and numerous others I could list that I know and many more I don’t know about downstate. Do you really think they are going to have Walther play Loyola? Easily at least 3 divisions. I’d have to see how many private’s fell into certain number ranges to know if more are possible and where the potential cut off lines would be.... but there wouldn’t be just 1 or 2 classes.
What public school team is whining about JCA? I must have missed that. I do have to ask why not petition up based on all the stuff you mentioned above?
No one said ALL will be in once division. The ones that are accustom to winning state in 5A or above will most likely be in one division.
I'll buy the argument that it limits people who go to the school. However, zero effect on football once they're in the school. Essentially the argument is "we could have more better players if it wasn't for tuition," ignoring what is on the field.
I will also buy the argument that privates are subject to the whims of the people (whether they want to go there or not) more so than the local public. But for a private with a football draw tuition does a good job of keeping the enrollment low. That way the best public team you play is Hillcrest despite having more talent than the three 8A schools in your town combined.
All in all, I honestly think the difference comes down to actual numbers of players that should see the field in a varsity game, and the number and size of quality linemen, offense and defense. The hardest thing I can tell for any public is to get a really good 5 OL with some capable backups.
the consistent championship programs operate like open boundary schools, and it takes less players to be a top team. Apples and oranges.
No I think the normal 5a schools would be the middle size division. I don’t know exactly where the lines would be but the largest division would likely be those with more than 750 or 800 or 900 or something like that. Remember you would still need to double the enrollment of the all boys schools but you would remove multipliers otherwise. Your cut off between the small and middle size would probably be in the 300-400 range.
You wouldn’t even necessarily have to have equal size brackets if it made sense based on the numbers of schools in each division. Maybe the largest schools have a 16 team playoff the middle size have enough to do a 32 team bracket and the small teams do a 24 team bracket? A lot of the bracket size would depend on how you want to qualify them for the playoff.... everyone in or some qualification? We would have to see how many teams fell above or below reasonable cutoff lines. But I’m not worried about it enough to put the time in like Soucie and come up with some projection.
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Yes I know different sports but it's the getting kids in that is in question so shouldn't matter the sport.
Less kids for bball would make it easy for privates too, no? And some sports publics act as privates and that's ok? Think the publics doing it is worse cause that's actually against the rules.
Less kids for basketball means publics are able to compete better when compared to football. There are really quality private programs now and historically: Benet, Fenwick, St. Joe's, Marian of the Heights, Rita has been good, DPP, Loyola, Viator, etc. Part of the issue though is a lot of the schools are closed to each other and regional playoffs.
No, it's not "okay" that schools operate like open boundary schools. But if you want an explanation for why hoops doesn't look like football, that's why. Simeon is Loyola, Whitney Young is MC, Morgan Park is Naz.
I see that every year. Morgan park great, Simeon great, Julian is literally right in the middle and yet no great bball players live in their boundries ever.
And isn't young a test in school so they dont have boundries? Just seems like things aren't even all over.
The Providence thing be interesting to show if tuition can be a negative at times. They had weak freshman numbers this year, if another one could show that when not strong a private school is hurt because of tuition.
I played HS football for both Catholic and public,my kids played for public.As I have stated before only in certain areas do Catholic have a big advantage over public and I will give one example north side you have Taft Hs a large public Hs with a history of average football,anyone who has top talent in that area will go to Niles notredame,st pats or Loyola so now Taft really never gets the superstars from that huge area of north side. Taft has to also play 8A because of it’s enrollment.They compete ok with CPS school but not the average 8A school because of that reason.
I understand your logic but now you are talking about the ESCC/CCL that exist now with a playoff/ championship added. How fun would that be year in and year out. Once you rid yourself of IHSA rules, why would any public school play you? The exciting part about the current system is playing teams you don't get to play that often if not ever. Public or Private, its exciting to see something different. The amount of public school in this state is large enough to continue that excitement. There isn't enough private schools to maintain anything similar to the current format.
You are assuming Julian isn't good simply because the have to play and get beat by Simeon and Morgan Park. Maybe if Julian had the ability to play all suburban schools, they may actually be a good team.
I'm saying year after year those 2 schools are top 10 and julian is not and that would only be 2 loses if they had 3rd amount in talent. Rarely are they in cps championship or make a run in state playoffs.
So after awhile has to be something to it than bad luck all the top bball players dont live in their boundries.
I’m a proponent of NOT separating. I was just discussing how it may break down if it were separated. Many here seem to think if separated the private class would be one class.
They were 6-15 last year, I don't recall them being good for a while. Last time I recall them being good was when they were using 19-20 year olds.
There was time before when Julian was real good in hoops. Chicago hoops is based on the coaches and not the school. People move to play where they want.
Only a few private schools will be able to financially support what you are alluding too, which will create an even bigger divide between the private school haves and have nots...
Yep, very impressive. Now do that within the confines of the public school district like the rest of us do. JCA is the only team that works hard and has a great system? I'm tired of hearing "we work harder" and "just get better"...….same rules for everyone or go off and play against teams that do play by the same rules as you do. You've won all those trophies in an unfair system and you're worried all that may suddenly become equal. That day will be celebrated by many my arrogant friend.
We have had people on here bragging that their schools have the alumni pay the tuition bills for top athletes, Mac has been doing that for decades.. which is a IHSA rules violation.
Tuition does not negate any perceived public advantage for the 7A and smaller schools, that is just another talking point you like to bring up. If there was no tuition, the enrollment would be higher and they would be in a higher class and would even out.. Now let the local private school start adding a bunch of Johnny Trailerparks who isn't paying tuition or a sport, proves my point even further..
Plus factor in that many top athletes are not paying tuition themselves, that negates it even further...
Report it to the IHSA with evidence and shut the program down. Anything less is just he said she said crap. If it’s common knowledge in your area then it will be easy to collect evidence.
