Now, think about that. In your entire lifetime no Bears coach has won as many as 160 games. In fact since 1968...that's 56 years...no Bears coach has come close to 160 wins. Not even close. Meanwhile there are 14 NFL coaches whose tenures included the 2000s who won 160 or more. And three Steelers coaches since 1968 have won more games than any Bears coach. Sad
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- Thread starter Wassup13
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Fine, replace the word great with overrated in my posts and my argument still stays the same and holds true. You can complain about semantics, but the context of my posts doesn't change anything. Payton is 17-17 without Brees so it's not a far leap to say he's overrated. So no need to reframe or make up anything to make my point.
Where did I say that you did bring up Rodgers? I know I brought him up, I used him as an analogy to compare him to Payton.
It's also a different game then it was 24 years ago. It's win now or you're out the door. Not saying that's fair, but that's the way it is. There are only 3 current NFL head coaches who have been with their teams for over 10 years; Tomlin, Reid, and Harbaugh. A long tenure is needed to get to 160 wins and most coaches aren't afforded that opportunity.
No one cares about regular season wins, it's about championships. I know a few Steelers fans and they want to fire Tomlin into the sun. They don't care that he's never had a losing season because he's won only one Super Bowl.
If Eberflus starts averaging 12 wins a year and has the Bears in the playoffs on a regular basis but they lose in the wild card or divisional round every year will that be enough for you? Odds are you're going to expect more as most people would. What would your thoughts on him be if he gets to your magic number of 160 wins but never wins a Super Bowl vs. winning multiple Super Bowls but only having 100 wins?
Your benchmark of 160 wins doesn't mean anything without the rings. Bill Walsh only has 92 wins over 10 years, but he has 3 Super Bowl wins so SF fans love him and he's in the HOF. Currently Kyle Shannahan, one of the best coaches in the league in my opinion, is a hot topic with 49er fans because he wins a lot but can't win a Super Bowl.
It funny how you like to twist things when you debate. Juvenile...but funny. Of course I want to see the Bears win championships. But, I also want to see that team in the hunt every year too. And they haven't been a serious SB contender since Ditka was the coach.
And 160 wins isn't a benchmark for me. It just happens to be the number of wins Payton has. If it was 150 I would have mentioned 150. And he did win a SB. Aren't you old enough to figure that out on your own?
And speaking of Tomlin, I guarantee I know just as many Steelers fans who love the guy and I wish he was the Bears head coach. Did you see the teams he's had the last few years. How this guy makes the playoffs with some of that talent is beyond me. You put Nagy, Trestman and a few other former Bears coaches and you're lucky to win 5 games. Tomlin is going to the HOF.
I wish I had more time to respond more but I don't.
What exactly have I twisted? Your contention is that you put a high value on regular season wins and being in contention when determining a coaches value and whether or not he is overrated. I'm saying fans just care about Super Bowls.
Well aware he won a Super Bowl, but just one. All those regular season wins and playoff appearances and he has as many titles as...Gary Kubiak.
That may very well be, but if I had to place a wager I would say that there are more fans that want him gone. The fact there's even a discussion on him proves my point. He wins consistently year after year, but only has one title so the fan base is split on him. If piling up wins and just getting to the playoffs was enough then wouldn't everyone love the guy?
Back to my example of Bill Walsh, only 92 wins but 3 titles in 10 years. Find me a 49ers fan who doesn't like him. If Eberflus wins 3 titles in 10 years no one will remember who Ditka ever was, regardless of how many regular season wins Eberflus compiles.
We all do, but using Tomlin or Payton as an example if you are just racking up regular season wins, and in contention, but fizzle out in the playoffs every year the fan base will start to grumble about titles and if you're not winning them then fans will turn on you, regardless of consistency and regular season wins.
Let's say that Eberflus figures it out and gets to 160 wins, that would mean he averaged 11 wins per year over 15 years (just randomly picked 15 years). In those 15 years he makes the playoffs 13 of them. In those 13 playoff appearances in 15 years he wins 1 Super Bowl, while successful, it could also be said that he under achieved and there would be those that would say he was overrated because he had all those wins but only one title. Perfect example is the Cowboys, regardless of the coach they compile regular season wins and they're in the playoffs every year, but come playoff time they're pretty much a league wide joke.
I don't have time to read all this nonsense. I will just say this. No one gets to the Super Bowl that didn't have to first win during the regular season. I said before. Of course championships are most important. I don't know how many times I have to say that before you understand. I honestly think you come here arguing just to argue.
*sigh* well you obviously did have time to read all of this, but continue.
Well looking back on your posts on the matter this is the first time you mentioned it so I'd say you have to say it at least once.
I've said multiple times here that I enjoy a good debate so you're not saying anything everyone doesn't already know. I think you devolve into saying people twist your words and don't understand what you're trying to say when they poke holes in your side of a topic.
Actually, I really didn't have time to read everything you wrote. Very, very busy week last week. But I got the gist...the same old gist.
It isn't twisting alone. You try to debate point by point but leave some points out. You completely ignored the Bobby Cox reference I put out. By your standards he is overrated because although his teams made the playoffs for years, he only managed to win one World Series. Yet, there he is in the Baseball Hall of Fame...where he belongs.
I guess, going forward, you will have to say that about every coach or manager who wins only one championship regardless of how well he does during the regular season. Because you say no one cares about regular season games, it's all about championships. You can't get to the post season without first winning during the regular season.
If no one cares about the regular season, why, every Sunday through Thursday do I see posts here ready to throw some of the Bears' players, coaches, GMs, owners, etc. off the nearest bridge, including you? Why do I see this in the media during the regular season as well? Because winning during the regular season gets you to the post season. Anyone who believes no one cares about the regular season and regular season wins is a fool.
When it comes to Sean Payton, guys like you love to say, well, he has great players. Or, look how bad he is now without that QB he had. Well, no shit, genius. How many championships do you think Phil Jackson would have won without Jordan and the others? None. How many Cups would Joel Quenneville win in the past without Kane, Toews, Hossa, Seabrook, Keith and others? None. How many rings would Bill Belichick have? To use an argument like that is sheer ignorance.
And in the end, who is overrating Sean Payton? Are people saying he belongs in the HOF? I certainly don't think he is overrated. But not the best ever, either. According to my source, there have been 524 NFL head coaches including 28 of whom are currently active as head coaches. Sean Payton has won as many or more games than 504 of them. Yes, some guys who won fewer games won more championships. But Payton has a ring too.
And BTW, Marv Leavy and Bud Grant are both on the HOF and neither of them won a single Super Bowl. Do we kick Weeb Eubank out of the HOF? He won only one SB and in his career he won only a single game more than he lost. It gets tricky when you make a broad statement like you have.
It just comes down to this. You think Sean Payton is overrated and I don't. Neither of us will change his stance.
It took this long to come to that conclusion?
I could have said that last week!!!!!! lol
Actually, I came to that conclusion when I first read this board and saw how things go around here.
I was talking to a family member yesterday and like me, he thinks the Chicago media is beyond crazy in all their coverage of the Bears. I realize NFL football is king in Chicago. But come on. They are going crazy over rookie camp. Geez, let the guys settle in would you please? We don't need 1,000 cameras and reporters here for Heaven's sake. Not right now, anyway. In today's Sun times. Bears coverage, four pages. Cubs coverage two pages.
I understand the excitement and hope going into the 2024 season. No on has to tell me that. But, please let off the gas a little and show some smooth here.
If the Cubs sucked like the White Sox, I could at least understand it. I believe the Cubs can win their division. And if they get that bullpen straightened out, they can go a long way in the post season.
So, I gave this analogy. With the Bears coverage and the Chicago media you have this. It's like the guy who has a bad girlfriend he has tried to break up with but let's her keep coming back. Finally, things change and he breaks up with her and it sticks. He is happy as hell. Then a short while later he meets another girl who proves to be a much better match and "fit." So, he loses his mind with happiness and overwhelms the poor girl before lettings take a natural course...driving her away too.
So, come on Chicago media. Be cool and let things find their way before losing your minds...again.
I understand the excitement and hope going into the 2024 season. No on has to tell me that. But, please let off the gas a little and show some smooth here.
If the Cubs sucked like the White Sox, I could at least understand it. I believe the Cubs can win their division. And if they get that bullpen straightened out, they can go a long way in the post season.
So, I gave this analogy. With the Bears coverage and the Chicago media you have this. It's like the guy who has a bad girlfriend he has tried to break up with but let's her keep coming back. Finally, things change and he breaks up with her and it sticks. He is happy as hell. Then a short while later he meets another girl who proves to be a much better match and "fit." So, he loses his mind with happiness and overwhelms the poor girl before lettings take a natural course...driving her away too.
So, come on Chicago media. Be cool and let things find their way before losing your minds...again.
I think they both will play well. Glad we past on Marvin Harrison Jr. His dad is very controlling. Fanatics just filed lawsuit on breach of a sighed contract. He also refused to sign the NFL Players Association contract. Glad we got Caleb Williams & Rome Odunze. Looks like MHJ is going to be a nightmare before he even steps onto the field. Just wait until the Cards try to sign him to his contract.
Yes I was high on Harrison Jr for a couple of months and then changed my mind and was all in on Odunze.
Interesting question and I vote for Williams. This based on the torturous, no-break schedule endured by elite-level female (can I even use that word?) college hoopsters considering conference/NCAA tournament, endorsements, draft process and right into the pro season. And the latter flying commercially, no less, for now.
Clark, and it's not close. This has nothing to do with my feelings towards Williams it's just that she will have much more time to prove herself given the amount of games she will play versus Williams. Clark will play 40 games to Williams 17 (hopefully more) so she will have the luxury of being able to survive a 4 or 5 game slump where Williams will not. She can start slow and adjust to the pro game and still have a remarkable season. Williams pretty much has to hit the ground running. That and basketball, men's or woman's can be dominated by a single player where that is far less likely in the NFL.
Are you really comparing the "torturous" schedule of a college basketball player turning pro versus a college football player going into the NFL?
Surprised there has been no mention of the Bears schedule yet here. It's pointless to project wins and losses at this point, but I'm just talking about the schedule itself. For all you Williams lovers out there, you'll get to see how he stacks up against the young QB talent early and often throughout the season.
Week 2-Houston (Stroud)
Week 3-Indy (Richardson)
Week 5-Carolina (Young)
Week 8-Washington (Daniels)
Week 10-New England (Maye)
Weeks 12 and 15-Minnesota (JJ, potentially)
Then there's also games against Jax (Lawrence) and SF (Purdy)
The thing that really caught my eye though was how friggin' unbalanced this schedule is. The Bears do not play the traditional HOME-AWAY-HOME type pattern once this season. Their season goes H-A-A-H-H-H-BYE-A-A-H-H-H-A-A-A-H-H-A. Oh and one of those "home" games is in London (God, I hate those London games). Plus, the Bears don't face a divisional opponent until week 11.
Week 2-Houston (Stroud)
Week 3-Indy (Richardson)
Week 5-Carolina (Young)
Week 8-Washington (Daniels)
Week 10-New England (Maye)
Weeks 12 and 15-Minnesota (JJ, potentially)
Then there's also games against Jax (Lawrence) and SF (Purdy)
The thing that really caught my eye though was how friggin' unbalanced this schedule is. The Bears do not play the traditional HOME-AWAY-HOME type pattern once this season. Their season goes H-A-A-H-H-H-BYE-A-A-H-H-H-A-A-A-H-H-A. Oh and one of those "home" games is in London (God, I hate those London games). Plus, the Bears don't face a divisional opponent until week 11.
I'm actually comparing Caitlin Clark's compressed 5-week path to a starting pro line-up to what will likely be Caleb Williams's 5-month+ journey.
I don't think a whirlwind 5 week schedule will have any effects on an young, early 20s elite athlete. Clark has had 3 games and is averaging 17 points per game after that compressed 5 week schedule. I think she'll be just fine.
Williams's last game was 12/27/23, so 5 months until his first pro start is really a severe underestimate on my part.
Totally agree plus these are completely different sports and like you said much more .opportunity with number of games to play. I still think Bears fans are going to be very happy to have a QB that has the skills Williams has to lead the team.
I wonder if the same people saying Clark will do better would have been the same people saying Clark over CJ Stroud in the same comparison it things lined up that way. We can say who we think will do better. But no one can say for sure. That's the good part. But, if I had to say, I just might say Williams because he appears to be set up with a better team going in. I don't think Williams will end up having the same pressure Fields did when he became the starter based on the talent that should be surrounding Williams.
Being in different sports is irrelevant. Each sport has it's own way of showing a player's progress. So they can be measured and compared using their own league and game's criteria.
To say Clark might have five bad games in a row and compare it with Williams and five bad games in a row isn't right or fair. In order for Williams to have five bad games in a row it has to span 35 days. Can you imaging Clark playing badly for 35 days? However, I realize Williams only gets one shot a week. But he gets a lot of prep for each game. I do agree that Williams does have to hit the ground running and too much time can't be used on getting accustomed to the league.
So, who will have the better year? I will tell you when the preseason starts and ends. LOL
Being in different sports is irrelevant. Each sport has it's own way of showing a player's progress. So they can be measured and compared using their own league and game's criteria.
To say Clark might have five bad games in a row and compare it with Williams and five bad games in a row isn't right or fair. In order for Williams to have five bad games in a row it has to span 35 days. Can you imaging Clark playing badly for 35 days? However, I realize Williams only gets one shot a week. But he gets a lot of prep for each game. I do agree that Williams does have to hit the ground running and too much time can't be used on getting accustomed to the league.
So, who will have the better year? I will tell you when the preseason starts and ends. LOL
It’s a bit much. I agree with A4fan no need for it, especially with a rookie QB. Go do the Chiefs or Ravens. JMO
They may not have had a choice. They could have been forced if nobody else volunteered
Exactly right. Qualifications for being forced to do it are, not making the playoffs for the last two years, not having a new HC, and I believe never doing the show before. I think it was the Saints, Broncos, and Bears are the only teams that could have been forced to do it.
McCaskey has made it public that he had no interest in the Bears being on the show so they didn't volunteer.
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Less than a month away on August 1st we hopefully get a chance to see the new Bears at the Hall of Fame game.
www.profootballhof.com
ESPN/ABC to broadcast 2024 Hall of Fame Game featuring Bears, Texans on Aug. 1 | Pro Football Hall of Fame
The 2024 Hall of Fame Game, slated for 8 p.m. ET Thursday, Aug. 1, will be broadcast live on ESPN and ABC. In the Hall of Fame Game’s 52-year history, this marks the first official broadcast on ESPN.
www.profootballhof.com
Hopefully none of the starters playLess than a month away on August 1st we hopefully get a chance to see the new Bears at the Hall of Fame game.
ESPN/ABC to broadcast 2024 Hall of Fame Game featuring Bears, Texans on Aug. 1 | Pro Football Hall of Fame
The 2024 Hall of Fame Game, slated for 8 p.m. ET Thursday, Aug. 1, will be broadcast live on ESPN and ABC. In the Hall of Fame Game’s 52-year history, this marks the first official broadcast on ESPN.
Calm down. It's the NFL preseason, it's beyond meaningless.Less than a month away on August 1st we hopefully get a chance to see the new Bears at the Hall of Fame game.
ESPN/ABC to broadcast 2024 Hall of Fame Game featuring Bears, Texans on Aug. 1 | Pro Football Hall of Fame
The 2024 Hall of Fame Game, slated for 8 p.m. ET Thursday, Aug. 1, will be broadcast live on ESPN and ABC. In the Hall of Fame Game’s 52-year history, this marks the first official broadcast on ESPN.
I thought the first episode of HBO's Hard Knocks highlighting the Bears was fairly interesting last night. I know we had guys here who didn't like the idea of HBO coming into the Bears' camp. But, based on what I read a while back, the players and coaches really don't have a problem with it and the people working for HBO are doing a good job of staying out of the way of the Bears' work. Yeah, it is a series of puff pieces. But, it is ok to get a look behind the scenes of what's going on.
The Hard Kocks disrupting things etc is so overblown...I found it entertaining.
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