Week 1 Games Of Note/Interest

[4Afan]

Would have loved to see Rochester play up in 5A this year...

Would have been interesting to see how far they went last year in 5A. Having to go through teams like Provi, Morris, JCA, SHG, and Highland who were all in the south, versus Lincoln, Coal City, Breese Central, and Murphysboro, which was the path Rochester had to the finals in 4A last year.

 

[ramblinman]

But what you are doing is punishing a team for being successful.

You are free to think that way if you want. I'd rather think of it as a highly sought after badge of honor that has been achieved through the program's extraordinary success.

 

[DisgustingSounds]

You are free to think that way if you want. I'd rather think of it as a highly sought after badge of honor that has been achieved through the program's extraordinary success.

Your weird “badge of honor” means so much less than an actual state championship.

Come to think of it, your fictional prize means nothing to no one.

 

[4Afan]

But what you are doing is punishing a team for being successful. Rochester will be able to schedule larger schools twice every season which should satisfy your need for them to "play up!" We have had several ways to fill out the classes in playoffs. We used to go by the average enrollment of your opponents that set your teams enrollment for the playoffs. We have the multiplier which I believe should always be used. I don't agree that a multiplied school being punished by forcing them higher in classification. Do you want to see Rochester being pushed up to the 6-8A playoffs when they continue to win state championships? Hell no! In no way is your opinion logical in the moralistic sense. Say your the hardest working guy at your company yet the boss comes to you with added workload because the other workers are not hard workers. Is this acceptable to you? Would you take their workloads on your own? Again, HELL NO you wont and you would be pissed. I'm not pissed at Rochester winning all the time and in truth I look to see what the other schools do to become competitive against the Rockets. You say Rochester needs to move up to be "challenged" but I say the 4A schools need to challenge themselves to become better so they can challenge Rochester. Speaking of Le-Win being pushed to the 2A playoffs. Have you ever been on a 1A team bumped up to 2A? Ive coached where our teams, with a chance maybe to get some hardware, were bumped up to 2A and ran into the Runner-up one year, losing by 20 something points and the next year getting run over and shut out. We didn't b*tch about it. I will tell you that within the next decade you will see schools consolidating, coop-ing or closing in 1A so you may get your wish. Lets say that school such as Stockton or Pearl City or Orangeville COOP with Lena causing Lena to move to 2A where Lena wins 5 state championships in a row, do you now move up Lena to 3A? Where does it stop? Camp Point has a really good coach and that staff has built a very good program. It took time, hard work, and blood, sweat and tears to finally achieve winning the championship. If they win this year people will say "Challenge" yourself and move up. Punishing teams for success is madness. Did the NFL kick New England out of the NFL because of their run? I mean with your stand I would think that since the Pat's went to 9 Superbowls in 17 year span winning 7 they should not be able to play in the playoffs for 2 seasons or lose their draft picks for 3 years. Crazy right? I can give examples of craziness. Lets say if Mt. Carmel loses 3 straight years in the 7A playoffs and they get dropped to 5A that would be crazy right?! There's always going to be the disgruntled fan, coach, school, conference that will want something done to punish success and its insane, demented, unhinged and fanatical!

Wow, so many odd analogies to unpack here. As a new member, let me first say, welcome! I urge you to please read this entire thread where I laid out my points in detail multiple times regarding this topic. I have nothing but respect for what Rochester has built and think they should choose to step up and challenge themselves. They play in a predominantly 5A-6A conference and have been wildly successful so why then choose to step down in the playoffs to 4A?

You can keep beating the drum that other 4A teams should just get better, like they're not trying to do that already, but the fact is Rochester isn't challenged in 4A. As I previously mentioned, in their 9 title games only 3 teams have kept the game within one score.

We used to go by the average enrollment of your opponents that set your teams enrollment for the playoffs.

And I'm all for going back to using "football enrollment" to determining class. As I mentioned in a previous post, this would have put Rochester firmly in 5A last year.

We have the multiplier which I believe should always be used. I don't agree that a multiplied school being punished by forcing them higher in classification.

So which is it? you like the multiplier or you don't agree with teams being multiplied? I for one have stated here that I am all in favor of the success factor multiplier being used for all schools, not just the private schools. I haven't heard you say it's unfair that Mt. Carmel would be bumped up to 8A if they win 7A again this year.

Say your the hardest working guy at your company yet the boss comes to you with added workload because the other workers are not hard workers. Is this acceptable to you? Would you take their workloads on your own? Again, HELL NO you wont and you would be pissed.

What?! To try and build off this analogy and relate it to what we are discussing, if I were the hardest worker who was the most successful at my company by a long shot and no longer felt rewarded for my work I would go to a bigger company where I felt more challenged.

Speaking of Le-Win being pushed to the 2A playoffs. Have you ever been on a 1A team bumped up to 2A? Ive coached where our teams, with a chance maybe to get some hardware, were bumped up to 2A and ran into the Runner-up one year, losing by 20 something points and the next year getting run over and shut out. We didn't b*tch about it. I will tell you that within the next decade you will see schools consolidating, coop-ing or closing in 1A so you may get your wish. Lets say that school such as Stockton or Pearl City or Orangeville COOP with Lena causing Lena to move to 2A where Lena wins 5 state championships in a row, do you now move up Lena to 3A?

If those schools were to merge into a COOP with LeWin then that would likely push them into 2A based on the enrollment increase. I would love that because I think LeWin/Wilmo would be an amazing matchup to look forward to on a yearly basis. As a 2A school in this hypothetical if they were to win 5 titles in a row, then yes, they should move up to 3A. They would only be moving up one class in this scenario.

Camp Point has a really good coach and that staff has built a very good program. It took time, hard work, and blood, sweat and tears to finally achieve winning the championship. If they win this year people will say "Challenge" yourself and move up.

No, no they won't. Winning 2 in a row is far different from 4 in a row, or 9 in 13 years. That being said, if a private school wins 2 in a row they get success factored up. Do you think that is unfair?

Lets say if Mt. Carmel loses 3 straight years in the 7A playoffs and they get dropped to 5A that would be crazy right?!

Why would they move down? Are you saying we should do away with the enrollment multiplier? This analogy is equivalent to relegation and promotion and that's not what I'm talking about at all.

I'm not saying teams like Rochester and LeWin should be forced to move up, although as I've said I'm all for the success factor multiplier for all schools, I'm saying they should voluntarily move up for more of a challenge, as ESL does. They've lost 2 out of the last 3 title games, but they still know their a top team in 6A and they don't belong playing in 5A so they choose to play up a class.

As I've stated in an early post on this thread, I know why they don't choose to play up and I don't blame them whatsoever, but I just don't agree with it.

 

[DisgustingSounds]

East St. Louis moves up because they recruit heavily and might as well be a private school.

Rochester plays with the kids that live in the town. You can’t success factor a program that can’t control who walks in the door. Don’t punish the following class for the success of the previous. It’s not like Derek is trolling the Springfield and Chatham middle school practices like some other less honorable area programs.

 

[colin2229]

I think we're a year or so off from calling for Byron to play up. It may just be that they have a few phenomenal classes coming through rather than sustained dominance. They've won 3A 2 of the last 3 years, but prior to that their last championship was 1999.

That’s my point…if a coach knows he has a few special classes coming through…petition up. Wish there was a way for coaches to do this.

Byron dominated everyone last year and they have loads coming back. It’s going to be a blood bath in 3A.

 

[colin2229]

Your weird “badge of honor” means so much less than an actual state championship.

Come to think of it, your fictional prize means nothing to no one.

But the badge of honor + a state championship is what we’re all talking about.

If I’m Byron or Rochester and we play up a class and win that class?? That’s legendary.

 

[4Afan]

That’s my point…if a coach knows he has a few special classes coming through…petition up. Wish there was a way for coaches to do this.

Byron dominated everyone last year and they have loads coming back. It’s going to be a blood bath in 3A.

That's not a smart way to go about it. A coach can think he has a great class or two coming through, but until they start playing you don't know for sure. It's especially tough to judge for a team like Byron that plays in a closed conference so they can't judge themselves against teams outside their conference until the playoffs.

They also didn't dominate against Montini and I look forward to that potential matchup again this year.

 

[ramblinman]

Come to think of it, your fictional prize means nothing to no one.

Who has two likes on their post and who doesn't?

 

[DisgustingSounds]

Who has two likes on their post and who doesn't?

Wow! Two whole likes! Mr. Popular over here, look out!

 

[rocketnation]

I really wish they would go back to 1-32 for all classes. I have nothing but GREAT respect for Coach Leonard and the Rochester program. They churn out great teams year in and year out. However, since I started keeping a closer eye on the 4A brackets about 6-7 years ago, the quality of teams in the North versus the South is a touch lopsided in my humble opinion. If we had 1-32 for everyone, my belief is that it would create some really fun games to watch earlier in the playoffs (2nd round/quarters). Specifically looking at the past 6 years or so, who is actually good down there besides Rochester and SHG? Meanwhile, look at the northern brackets during the same time period and its just not very close when you compare quality teams. I really wish the IHSA would take a look at 1-32 again. And AGAIN, this doesn't take away anything from Rochester, they very well may have the same amount of championships over that time period but it would have undoubtedly been more difficult to achieve.

Morris was the smallest 5A school last year. They could end up in 4A this year and would probably be a coin flip between being in the North or South bracket. Morris would immediately add a championship caliber team to the 4A South side of the bracket.

Watch for Mt Zion to also be a big player in the South bracket this year.

 

[rocketnation]

That's not a smart way to go about it. A coach can think he has a great class or two coming through, but until they start playing you don't know for sure. It's especially tough to judge for a team like Byron that plays in a closed conference so they can't judge themselves against teams outside their conference until the playoffs.

They also didn't dominate against Montini and I look forward to that potential matchup again this year.

Isn't this the biggest problem with playing up? Unless I'm wrong, you commit to playing up for two years before the Year 1 season even begins or after Week 1 of Year 1 at the latest. Derek's probable starting QB and best offensive player blew his knee out in 7 on 7's last summer and was out until Week 8. Does that sound like the right time for a coach to ask to play up?

If the rule was changed to limit it to one year at a time and a team was allowed to play 1/3 of its season before making a final call, I think it would at least make more sense.

 

[AlabamaTimberwolf]

Wow, so many odd analogies to unpack here. As a new member, let me first say, welcome! I urge you to please read this entire thread where I laid out my points in detail multiple times regarding this topic. I have nothing but respect for what Rochester has built and think they should choose to step up and challenge themselves. They play in a predominantly 5A-6A conference and have been wildly successful so why then choose to step down in the playoffs to 4A?

You can keep beating the drum that other 4A teams should just get better, like they're not trying to do that already, but the fact is Rochester isn't challenged in 4A. As I previously mentioned, in their 9 title games only 3 teams have kept the game within one score.


And I'm all for going back to using "football enrollment" to determining class. As I mentioned in a previous post, this would have put Rochester firmly in 5A last year.


So which is it? you like the multiplier or you don't agree with teams being multiplied? I for one have stated here that I am all in favor of the success factor multiplier being used for all schools, not just the private schools. I haven't heard you say it's unfair that Mt. Carmel would be bumped up to 8A if they win 7A again this year.


What?! To try and build off this analogy and relate it to what we are discussing, if I were the hardest worker who was the most successful at my company by a long shot and no longer felt rewarded for my work I would go to a bigger company where I felt more challenged.


If those schools were to merge into a COOP with LeWin then that would likely push them into 2A based on the enrollment increase. I would love that because I think LeWin/Wilmo would be an amazing matchup to look forward to on a yearly basis. As a 2A school in this hypothetical if they were to win 5 titles in a row, then yes, they should move up to 3A. They would only be moving up one class in this scenario.


No, no they won't. Winning 2 in a row is far different from 4 in a row, or 9 in 13 years. That being said, if a private school wins 2 in a row they get success factored up. Do you think that is unfair?


Why would they move down? Are you saying we should do away with the enrollment multiplier? This analogy is equivalent to relegation and promotion and that's not what I'm talking about at all.

I'm not saying teams like Rochester and LeWin should be forced to move up, although as I've said I'm all for the success factor multiplier for all schools, I'm saying they should voluntarily move up for more of a challenge, as ESL does. They've lost 2 out of the last 3 title games, but they still know their a top team in 6A and they don't belong playing in 5A so they choose to play up a class.

As I've stated in an early post on this thread, I know why they don't choose to play up and I don't blame them whatsoever, but I just don't agree with it.

I see you're stuck on the multiplier... I said SINCE a team is multiplied and they win a championship or two they SHOULD NOT be forced into a higher classification. Here's an example: SHG is MULTIPLIED and assigned to 5A. They win a state championship and runner-up the next 2 years. SHG should NOT be forced into 6A due to their success! Get it?

 

[AlabamaTimberwolf]

You are free to think that way if you want. I'd rather think of it as a highly sought after badge of honor that has been achieved through the program's extraordinary success.

Its funny that you say its a badge of honor. Do you play anything? Horseshoes, Pool, Poker, basketball??? Were you ever good at anything? If so you probably earned it. Ya know, worked hard and sacrificed to be the best. That's like telling Nolan Ryan he's too good of a pitcher that he will have to throw left handed for a season to give the other teams a chance. I can see that most of ya are liberals and I get that mentality, well, no I don't. But y'all have your participation trophy's now you want to punish success. Did your grandfather's succeed by making other men do his job? My family were military and coal miners. All they new was work hard and the company will take care of you. You want to sit back and have it given to ya and that's asinine. So what school do you support? Who's crying that they can't compete with Rochester? What school refuses to work harder and sacrifice to earn it??? I would like to know. Or do you just hate successful programs because you never were successful?! What gives? Wait! You most likely don't have a dog in the hunt do you. No, you just like to complain about others success. It must be a terrible life you live if that's the case. Bottom line the state will never force a public school to play up no matter how liberal Illinois is. There's a reason for that and maybe you should seek out that reason.

 

[SiuCubFan8]

You want to sit back and have it given to ya and that's asinine. So what school do you support? Who's crying that they can't compete with Rochester? What school refuses to work harder and sacrifice to earn it??? I would like to know. Or do you just hate successful programs because you never were successful?! What gives? Wait! You most likely don't have a dog in the hunt do you. No, you just like to complain about others success. It must be a terrible life you live if that's the case.

He supports Loyola... but carry on.

 

[4Afan]

I see you're stuck on the multiplier... I said SINCE a team is multiplied and they win a championship or two they SHOULD NOT be forced into a higher classification. Here's an example: SHG is MULTIPLIED and assigned to 5A. They win a state championship and runner-up the next 2 years. SHG should NOT be forced into 6A due to their success! Get it?

This scenario only applies to private schools. If you have beef with that take it up with their supporters.

 

[4Afan]

Its funny that you say its a badge of honor. Do you play anything? Horseshoes, Pool, Poker, basketball??? Were you ever good at anything? If so you probably earned it. Ya know, worked hard and sacrificed to be the best. That's like telling Nolan Ryan he's too good of a pitcher that he will have to throw left handed for a season to give the other teams a chance. I can see that most of ya are liberals and I get that mentality, well, no I don't. But y'all have your participation trophy's now you want to punish success. Did your grandfather's succeed by making other men do his job? My family were military and coal miners. All they new was work hard and the company will take care of you. You want to sit back and have it given to ya and that's asinine. So what school do you support? Who's crying that they can't compete with Rochester? What school refuses to work harder and sacrifice to earn it??? I would like to know. Or do you just hate successful programs because you never were successful?! What gives? Wait! You most likely don't have a dog in the hunt do you. No, you just like to complain about others success. It must be a terrible life you live if that's the case. Bottom line the state will never force a public school to play up no matter how liberal Illinois is. There's a reason for that and maybe you should seek out that reason.

While I am in favor of success factor for all, this discussion is based on them VOLUNTEERING to play up based on their dominance in 4A, much the way ESL does. No one has been talking about forcing them to do anything or punishing their success.

 

[4Afan]

Isn't this the biggest problem with playing up? Unless I'm wrong, you commit to playing up for two years before the Year 1 season even begins or after Week 1 of Year 1 at the latest. Derek's probable starting QB and best offensive player blew his knee out in 7 on 7's last summer and was out until Week 8. Does that sound like the right time for a coach to ask to play up?

If the rule was changed to limit it to one year at a time and a team was allowed to play 1/3 of its season before making a final call, I think it would at least make more sense.

This is definitely a discussion I could dive deeper into and on the surface I agree with you but I can see how it could get confusing for the IHSA and creat some issues with teams getting bumped up or down depending on who petitions up in a given year.

 

[ramblinman]

Wow! Two whole likes! Mr. Popular over here, look out!

Make that 3 now. You, otoh, not only have none, but you said my concept "means nothing to no one."

 

[johnndoe]

How about Week 0 Scrimmages of Note/Interest? Who, where and when (day and time)?

 

[DisgustingSounds]

Make that 3 now. You, otoh, not only have none, but you said my concept "means nothing to no one."

I’m sorry. I really can’t stop laughing at this. It’s not the flex you think it is. You for sure need this little victory in your life.

 

[4Afan]

How about Week 0 Scrimmages of Note/Interest? Who, where and when (day and time)?

There's already a thread for that a few pages back

 

[GoBlers]

He supports Loyola... but carry on.

Ask Rochester about that Loyola game…

 

[SiuCubFan8]

How about Week 0 Scrimmages of Note/Interest? Who, where and when (day and time)?

Week 0 Scrimmage

Now that it is allowed, anyone hear of any agreements so far?

edgytim.forums.rivals.com

 

[ramblinman]

I’m sorry. I really can’t stop laughing at this. It’s not the flex you think it is. You for sure need this little victory in your life.

Laugh all you want. You claim my idea means nothing to no one. I'm proving you wrong.

 

[DisgustingSounds]

Laugh all you want. You claim my idea means nothing to no one. I'm proving you wrong.

You’re a special kind of weird and soft that can only be cultivated at a private school.

 

[ramblinman]

You’re a special kind of weird and soft that can only be cultivated at a private school.

I know I have won an argument when the other person resorts to an ad hominem attack.

Thanks for playing. Better luck next time.

 

[Alexander32]

But what you are doing is punishing a team for being successful. Rochester will be able to schedule larger schools twice every season which should satisfy your need for them to "play up!" We have had several ways to fill out the classes in playoffs. We used to go by the average enrollment of your opponents that set your teams enrollment for the playoffs. We have the multiplier which I believe should always be used. I don't agree that a multiplied school being punished by forcing them higher in classification. Do you want to see Rochester being pushed up to the 6-8A playoffs when they continue to win state championships? Hell no! In no way is your opinion logical in the moralistic sense. Say your the hardest working guy at your company yet the boss comes to you with added workload because the other workers are not hard workers. Is this acceptable to you? Would you take their workloads on your own? Again, HELL NO you wont and you would be pissed. I'm not pissed at Rochester winning all the time and in truth I look to see what the other schools do to become competitive against the Rockets. You say Rochester needs to move up to be "challenged" but I say the 4A schools need to challenge themselves to become better so they can challenge Rochester. Speaking of Le-Win being pushed to the 2A playoffs. Have you ever been on a 1A team bumped up to 2A? Ive coached where our teams, with a chance maybe to get some hardware, were bumped up to 2A and ran into the Runner-up one year, losing by 20 something points and the next year getting run over and shut out. We didn't b*tch about it. I will tell you that within the next decade you will see schools consolidating, coop-ing or closing in 1A so you may get your wish. Lets say that school such as Stockton or Pearl City or Orangeville COOP with Lena causing Lena to move to 2A where Lena wins 5 state championships in a row, do you now move up Lena to 3A? Where does it stop? Camp Point has a really good coach and that staff has built a very good program. It took time, hard work, and blood, sweat and tears to finally achieve winning the championship. If they win this year people will say "Challenge" yourself and move up. Punishing teams for success is madness. Did the NFL kick New England out of the NFL because of their run? I mean with your stand I would think that since the Pat's went to 9 Superbowls in 17 year span winning 7 they should not be able to play in the playoffs for 2 seasons or lose their draft picks for 3 years. Crazy right? I can give examples of craziness. Lets say if Mt. Carmel loses 3 straight years in the 7A playoffs and they get dropped to 5A that would be crazy right?! There's always going to be the disgruntled fan, coach, school, conference that will want something done to punish success and its insane, demented, unhinged and fanatical!

The NFL did assign the Patriots the worst draft position the following year as a result of their success.