Thats on the coach if he doesnt bring things up in the pregame meeting(weird plays/formations/interpretations). I dont know what we would discuss on "how the game will be officiated". "Ya coach we are gonna be a little lax on DPI today so make sure you're DB's know they can really mug the receivers". Judgement calls vary from play to play, much less game to game and crew to crew. The pregame discussion is an opportunity to preventive officiate any potential issues and make us aware of anything the coach has in his head. 90% of the time its the usual "their tackles hold a lot".
St Louis papers coverage of MC/ ESL
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Thats on the coach if he doesnt bring things up in the pregame meeting(weird plays/formations/interpretations). I dont know what we would discuss on "how the game will be officiated". "Ya coach we are gonna be a little lax on DPI today so make sure you're DB's know they can really mug the receivers". Judgement calls vary from play to play, much less game to game and crew to crew. The pregame discussion is an opportunity to preventive officiate any potential issues and make us aware of anything the coach has in his head. 90% of the time its the usual "their tackles hold a lot".
OK there buddy, smh...not my team or my kids...
Save that bandwidth and use it help your fellow Zebras learn the rules of the games they are officiating. They get paid to do it.
Hey never thought of that, but maybe will try this weekend. I can see it now . "Coach we heard their tight end holds a lot, but we are not calling it today.
Let me add some fuel to the fire, Does the coaching staff not get blamed for not knowing the rules? If they did know the rules, why didnt they go after those officials at the time and say you have this wrong? Everyone that is an Adult in this situation messed up. Coaches should know the rule book inside and out, just like the officials. When you decide to bitch about a mistake, you actually have a clue what you are talking about. There is no question that everyone feels bad for those kids, what happened sucked. In the end, LIFE IS NOT FAIR. Great learning lesson on how to deal with adversity. If this is the worst thing that happenes to those kids, they will live great lives.
I know you are a ref and stick up for fellow zebras....but let's review
1- They blew the call- no question
2- You don't know what was talked about. But you don't see an issue if they talked about the OK St play? This is where I'm confused. Wasn't it discussed nationally and locally for weeks after the fact? If these guys took their jobs seriously, they never were part of a discussion or read anything on this? These men had to hear about it...
3- 5 people, No one had a rule book to look up what they were misinterpreting? OK, that would also fall on the Fenwick coaches...
Mistake and human error, sure. BUT, They did not have a Championship game taken from them, Fenwick kids did. They had a paycheck opportunity taken from them. They will get one again, I'm sure, the Fenwick kids...not so much.
I did say it was a mistake, bad one, and only stated they should not be doing a playoff game this year. And for the record... It did not effect my team or a team I cheer for.
Them getting this call wrong after being national news just a few weeks earlier...and you don't see a "shred" of evidence of them not taking their job seriously and deserve another playoff game...shame on you. Not knowing the rules of the game you are officiating, might be more than a "shred" after being a national newsworthy story about your profession, a local coach involved, and two top NCAA confrences releasing statements about said blown call....
But hey, some officials take their job more serious than others. It's just too bad many of them aren't doing the playoff games because they are not "connected".
I will start by saying again, I don't blame officials for anything but I have a problem with people pretending that things are not an issue. This is turning into proof of my point. You are now trying to tell me there isn't a need to have a pregame meeting by stating stupid stuff as if my point isn't valid.
I am not a rookie at this and I know what happens in pregame. It's very inconsistent between all crews. I have yet to witness the same actions between officiating crews therefore there should be a mandatory meeting between both coaches and the officiating crew. Leaving it up to the crew itself or the coach to "complain"starts things off on the wrong foot. If the crew ask too many questions, the coach get in defensive mode. If the coach bring up too many points, he is labeled a complainer and treated as such throughout the game.
I just witnessed a game where it appeared that the white hat said no more than two words to either head coach prior to the coin toss. He did answer questions if anyone came up to him but the answers were short. I didn't get the impression that he was being an A hole, however the crew was very stand offish.
There is a mandatory meeting. And like I said we usually ask:
-Is everyone legally equipped?
-Any weird plays or formations?
-Anything you want us to be aware of?
-Do you have a ball boy?
Thats all we ask. Even on the rare occasion there is advanced scouting or we have knowledge of something we arent gonna come out and say "Joe at Random HS says you guys cut alot, if you do that we are calling it today". Thats not how you start a game. If the coach has anything I think most officials are more than happy to talk about it because its al ot easier in pregame than in game when everyones emotions are involved and time is important. Some coaches dont even want to have the meeting and we dont want to get in the way of their routine/coaching. It's a forum for them, if they want to use it fine, if not we aren't there to offer up information or coaching advice.
Fuel? You are right the Fenwick coaches share blame. No fuel or arguement there.
Clue what I'm talking about? Do you have one?
Stripes mentioned that they may have talked about in their huddle. What I stated is then it's no longer a mistake, but incompetence. This was a national story that had an epic ending just a few weeks earlier, just like this case. Same deal. I stated that if these guys took their jobs seriously, there is no way they wouldn't have heard or read about it. If they then discussed this in the huddle and ruled wrong? They should not be reffing games. The don't know the rules even after it was clearly explained and two top NCAA confe's released statements on this exact same situation.
But hey, those poor ref's missed 1 game paycheck. Pretty sure that's much easier to get over than missing a once in a lifetime opportunity to play in a state high school championship.
btw, most ref's I know and have spoken to about this last year. They all knew the rule. The ones who didn't sure knew after Okla st/Central Michigan.
Yeah, if a coach has a specific question on something that's been called on him in the past, or something he's scouted on his opponent I have no problem discussing it. I would never offer anything up without it being asked first, unless it was from the assignor.
I've also had a few coaches wave us off and say there's nothing to meet about.
Besides the four you mentioned, we always remind them the length of half time, and the mandatory 3 minutes for warm up. We let them know which official is working their sideline and he will advise them of all penalties. What time on the clock we will have the coin toss. Get the numbers of the captains. And then we always ask if he has any questions and concerns we need to be aware of.
Funny you would say "they all knew the rule' Of course this was after the fact. I took a little survey among some fellow officials and much to my surprise there were quite a few who were not aware of it.
This whole debate started because 1 lower level official "Made a joke" about these officials. Never should have happened in the first place, and if he doesn't do this , this whole ugly situation doesn't reappear.
Just my 2 cents
Just my 2 cents
Thank goodness it's not Facebook, otherwise that lower level official would give out some personal information of theirs.
Interesting, but I assume you knew and probably did talk to friends, others refs, coaches about it after it happened to Oklahoma st? right?
I was talking to them about it after the Oklahoma game at TCYFL football games. You talk with refs often doing chains.
Most ref''s do the High school games the night before or the ones I spoke to knew it then...when it was national story.
I know, crazy....
Im not saying the situation in any way was excusable, but I dont think the "It happened in a college game so they should know" is really sound. There are a lot of rules differences, especially with penalty enforcement between the college and high school game. Sometimes we get in trouble thinking about Saturday and Sunday rules when doing our Friday night thing. We can leave it with they should have known their games rules and stop talking about it, please.
You are a ref, correct?
Can you honestly tell me you don't read up or seek out more information when a national story about a blown call in a big game makes the news? I would believe people who take their responsibility seriously do.
That's all I'm saying
Im with you 100%. I also know guys who are really good football officials who couldnt care less about saturdays or sundays and dont bother themselves with other football. Either way I think we are beating a dead horse here, a horse thats now been dead a year
Lower level officials? I know crews and individual refs have to work their way up from Frosh, Soph/JV to get to the Varsity level, but the comment (while true)... well.....it just kinda sounded like a caste system from India or something. That wasn’t your meaning correct?
IE Varsity crews don’t look down upon the freshmen and JV crews do they? There are some damn fine refs in the lower levels of HS football
I still blame the IHSA who had a chance to put this game right but due to some rule refused to do so. Shame on them and i bet the same rule is still in place this year too. So basically there is no recourse for any team or by the way even a player who was erroneously thrown out of a game. So much for fairness according to the IHSA..
Absolutely not. I still work freshmen games every week. And know a lot of excellent officials who still do . My comment was about an official who does not work a regular varsity schedule who basically continues to bash this crew, even though he called his comment a joke I still in my opinion think it is unnecessary to even bring it up
As ref2 does, and probably other varsity refs who might post here, I still do lower level games on Saturdays. In addition I still work grade school leagues as well. I'm not a "big-timer." I can only say that from my perspective I did not appreciate how this specific referee in question handled the situation. Not only through postings here, but on social media as well.
Let me see if I got this correct.
We have a thread titled "St Louis papers coverage of MC/ ESL"
In none of these articles do we see any comment about the officiating in this game.
The only penalty mentioned was on 4th and 2, ESL "jumped offsides".
It turns into a debate about the crew from the Fenwick/ PN game that was a year ago.
And I am trying to bury it ?
One of the first things we learn as officials is you will make a mistake, you will miss a call, misinterpret a rule. ETC.
Then they teach you to learn from it and move on. Don't let it effect the way you continue to officiate. We all are humans and will make mistakes. DO NOT make the next call a make up call, that will only compound the problem. Work harder.
The problem here is this official just seems to not get over it. I hope when he officiates he has learned to get over his mistakes. That is unless he is perfect and doesn't make any.
There are 2 types of officials. Those that have missed calls and those that are about to.
This incident happened a year ago, In my opinion it is time we all get over it. Move on folks there is nothing more here to see.
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We have a thread titled "St Louis papers coverage of MC/ ESL"
In none of these articles do we see any comment about the officiating in this game.
The only penalty mentioned was on 4th and 2, ESL "jumped offsides".
It turns into a debate about the crew from the Fenwick/ PN game that was a year ago.
And I am trying to bury it ?
One of the first things we learn as officials is you will make a mistake, you will miss a call, misinterpret a rule. ETC.
Then they teach you to learn from it and move on. Don't let it effect the way you continue to officiate. We all are humans and will make mistakes. DO NOT make the next call a make up call, that will only compound the problem. Work harder.
The problem here is this official just seems to not get over it. I hope when he officiates he has learned to get over his mistakes. That is unless he is perfect and doesn't make any.
There are 2 types of officials. Those that have missed calls and those that are about to.
This incident happened a year ago, In my opinion it is time we all get over it. Move on folks there is nothing more here to see.
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For the most part you summed it up well however just because there wasn't anything mentioned in the paper (Good Coaches always look in the mirror first) doesn't mean that this crew did anything close to a stellar job during this game. In my opinion, this crew should not be awarded games past the second round.
So there is one person talking about what happened last year so I get it. I am talking about this year and this game where you and Stripes have mentioned several things that routinely should happen in a game that didn't happen during this game. Starting with Pregame. To top it off, one of the officials decided it was important for the coaches to know that MC coaches sister is the AD at Depaul University right after he mentioned the need to make sure all the pants covered the knee. Not sure what to make of that statement. I didn't think Depaul had a football team.
Specific example since it was mentioned in the article is the offsides penalty. The kid who flinched was close to the ESL sideline which that sideline ref didn't through a flag, after about 2 to 3 second pass, the sideline ref on MC side blew the whistle and called a brief hudl. Without any flag being thrown, they march off 5 yards first down MC. The ref on ESL sideline told the coach that he didn't think he jumped and he officiate college games so he knows not to have a quick whistle in the moment however he wasn't willing to overturn his partner.
Now to be clear, ESL got a fumble three plays later and had 40 plus seconds to try and win the game so the play didn't have a huge impact on the final outcome. MC won and thats that! It's just another weird event by this crew.
So what you're saying is you didnt like their pregame(first time ive seen someone so hung up on a pregame, kind of funny to me) and the call you have taken exception to did not effect the outcome of the game. Also I love the 2nd/3rd hand accounts of "conversations" the refs have with the coaches/players. Because nothing ever gets over embellished or changed in translation, especially when then being posted to a message board.
I never told you it was second hand! That is your opinion as you try to defend whatever it is you are trying to defend. If nothing is wrong, there is nothing to defend. I have several other examples of "weird" events however I am not interested in discussing it. I was having a general conversation about a topic. I am assuming that is what message boards are for, topic discussions. It's not about what I like or don't like. I made a suggestion and can move on from it. If your ego suggest that it is not important to be on the same page with coaches you are officiating for, then that says it all to me. Just like if a coach isn't interested in being on the same page with the officials. Never let your role or position go to your head. In the end, the kids are the ones playing the game!
There is nothing to be confused about. I am merely discussing a topic and stating that there is validity to some things that have been discussed in this thread. Nothing more or nothing less. I offered a suggestion to help eliminate some concerns. It is what it is.
As a matter of fact, if LHS's account of pregame meetings with refs is indeed first hand, wouldn't he have to be Sunkett?
LHS is short for Lincoln High School
That's actually been a mystery of mine for a long time. Clearly should have just asked long ago!
Damn It would have been cool if you started a thread with just the letter “L”!!! We could have all made conjectures on what the L stood for!
Lockport
Lyons
But now that we know it’s Lincoln... well the magic is not there any longer
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