Provi/SF

[olderbytheminute]

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Just watched the tape and I am going to offer my less-than-2 cents about the St. Francis offensive sequence that started with 50-plus seconds to go in the game.
1) The first-down play, there were two mistakes made by refs but neither one was actually fatal in terms of "robbing" the Spartans of what appeared to be a sure victory.
The first error: The referee signaled after the flag was thrown that there was a delay of game penalty. Actually, a delay on first down not only wouldn't have occurred but would make no sense as the clock was not running and it certainly did not appear as though the QB was waiting for the play clock to run near zero before taking the snap. There would be no point in doing that. Rather, I think the penalty called was for illegal motion by one of the backfield guys on St. Francis moving forward before the snap. The ref signaled delay of game but I suspect that was not the actual on-the-field call. Now, because of the flag, the clock stopped. The Providence team then declined the penalty, making it second down.
The second error: One of the other officials who did not throw a flag immediately picked up the ball and walked off five yards from the spot where the St.F QB had taken a knee probably thinking that was the spot of the original line of scrimmage. That was a mistake. It made it second down and 18 instead of second-and-13. That said, the yardage was irrelevant because St.F was going to take a knee on the next two plays anyway.
2nd-and-18: take a knee. Timeout No. 2.
3rd-and-20: take a knee. Timeout No. 3.
Punt.
This is 100 pct. a guess, but I think that St.F ran three offensive plays before the punt and there was no mistake in the "downs" situation. The mistakes were a ref marking off a five-yard penalty that was declined, and another ref signaling a delay of game infraction when it really was an illegal motion penalty that would have counted the down when declined and also stopped the clock.
If you watch the St. Francis coach during the discussion with refs about the down situation after the first StF play, he is moving his arm as if showing the ref what an illegal motion penalty signal looks like rather than a delay of game signal.
If the first-down call was for illegal motion and the flag is declined, then St.F really did run three offensive plays before the punt. A ref who was not part of the discussion picked up the ball and marked off the five yards penalty which was the mistake. Should have been 2nd-and-13 instead of 2nd-and-18 but given that St.F was kneeling down, that was not really a decisive issue.
As for the hail-mary pass, at least there was a referee in correct position in the end zone to make the call. On the tape, you obviously have no idea what happened on the catch/no-catch.
Perhaps the receiver had possession of the ball in the end zone long enough in the ref's opinion to count as a catch before the ball wound up on the field.
I don't know. The still shot clearly shows the ball on the ground, but doesn't show whether the ball hit the ground after the receiver had possession of it in the end zone.
Regardless, at least the ref was in position to make a call and he made it quickly and aggressively. Did he miss the call? Perhaps he did. But it is what it is in a sport in which there is no coach's challenge and no instant replay official to make sure the original call is correct.
Yes, lot of words, but from Olderbytheminute, words are cheap ... worth less than 2 cents.

 

[Badger Pete]

A delay should mean dead ball foul, thus 1st and 15 (offended team can always refuse the yardage), but the box read 2 (second down) for the subsequent snap. Didn't help that the scoreboard was never updated during the series. Errors in "downs" can be corrected, as in this instance.

Umpire called it a live ball foul "Delay of Game". QB was supposed to take a knee ASAP. Instead, it should have been called unsportsmanlike conduct, as St Francis QB should have gone knee to the ground, without hesitation, since Providence was not rushing.

Only 3 penalties in high school incur loss of down 1) illegal touching 2) illegal forward pass 3) intentional grounding

And #4, illegal forward handling.

 

[colin2229]

IMO, refs made the correct call.

The delay of game was bc the qb didn’t immediately take a knee. He tried to get a few extra seconds off the clock.

Think about it, you don’t get to run three seconds off the clock, get a delay of game and then redo the down. The offense could do this several times and run time off the clock and still have a first down.

 

[colin2229]

Just watched the tape and I am going to offer my less-than-2 cents about the St. Francis offensive sequence that started with 50-plus seconds to go in the game.
1) The first-down play, there were two mistakes made by refs but neither one was actually fatal in terms of "robbing" the Spartans of what appeared to be a sure victory.
The first error: The referee signaled after the flag was thrown that there was a delay of game penalty. Actually, a delay on first down not only wouldn't have occurred but would make no sense as the clock was not running and it certainly did not appear as though the QB was waiting for the play clock to run near zero before taking the snap. There would be no point in doing that. Rather, I think the penalty called was for illegal motion by one of the backfield guys on St. Francis moving forward before the snap. The ref signaled delay of game but I suspect that was not the actual on-the-field call. Now, because of the flag, the clock stopped. The Providence team then declined the penalty, making it second down.
The second error: One of the other officials who did not throw a flag immediately picked up the ball and walked off five yards from the spot where the St.F QB had taken a knee probably thinking that was the spot of the original line of scrimmage. That was a mistake. It made it second down and 18 instead of second-and-13. That said, the yardage was irrelevant because St.F was going to take a knee on the next two plays anyway.
2nd-and-18: take a knee. Timeout No. 2.
3rd-and-20: take a knee. Timeout No. 3.
Punt.
This is 100 pct. a guess, but I think that St.F ran three offensive plays before the punt and there was no mistake in the "downs" situation. The mistakes were a ref marking off a five-yard penalty that was declined, and another ref signaling a delay of game infraction when it really was an illegal motion penalty that would have counted the down when declined and also stopped the clock.
If you watch the St. Francis coach during the discussion with refs about the down situation after the first StF play, he is moving his arm as if showing the ref what an illegal motion penalty signal looks like rather than a delay of game signal.
If the first-down call was for illegal motion and the flag is declined, then St.F really did run three offensive plays before the punt. A ref who was not part of the discussion picked up the ball and marked off the five yards penalty which was the mistake. Should have been 2nd-and-13 instead of 2nd-and-18 but given that St.F was kneeling down, that was not really a decisive issue.
As for the hail-mary pass, at least there was a referee in correct position in the end zone to make the call. On the tape, you obviously have no idea what happened on the catch/no-catch.
Perhaps the receiver had possession of the ball in the end zone long enough in the ref's opinion to count as a catch before the ball wound up on the field.
I don't know. The still shot clearly shows the ball on the ground, but doesn't show whether the ball hit the ground after the receiver had possession of it in the end zone.
Regardless, at least the ref was in position to make a call and he made it quickly and aggressively. Did he miss the call? Perhaps he did. But it is what it is in a sport in which there is no coach's challenge and no instant replay official to make sure the original call is correct.
Yes, lot of words, but from Olderbytheminute, words are cheap ... worth less than 2 cents.

Providence only had two timeouts.

I don’t see illegal shift on that play. If it was, it would have came from the line judge.

 

[Blackfriars]

IMO, refs made the correct call.

The delay of game was bc the qb didn’t immediately take a knee. He tried to get a few extra seconds off the clock.

Think about it, you don’t get to run three seconds off the clock, get a delay of game and then redo the down. The offense could do this several times and run time off the clock and still have a first down.

It is a live play; the QB is not required to immediately kneel it out.

 

[Silver Rain]

If the receiver catches the ball, seems to have control however briefly, but then falls on his back and the fall dislodges the ball, is that a catch?

 

[Gestalt45]

Umpire called it a live ball foul "Delay of Game". QB was supposed to take a knee ASAP. Instead, it should have been called unsportsmanlike conduct, as St Francis QB should have gone knee to the ground, without hesitation, since Providence was not rushing.

And #4, illegal forward handling.

In the nfhs rulebook that’s included under illegal forward pass

 

[Gestalt45]

IMO, refs made the correct call.

The delay of game was bc the qb didn’t immediately take a knee. He tried to get a few extra seconds off the clock.

Think about it, you don’t get to run three seconds off the clock, get a delay of game and then redo the down. The offense could do this several times and run time off the clock and still have a first down.

What you described is 100% legal in the confines of the NFHS rule book. QB is not required to immediately kneel. Also- even if it was delay of game it would never constitute loss of down.

 

[olderbytheminute]

In high school football, a delay of game penalty can be incurred if the offense doesn't snap the ball before the play clock runs out. The referee will signal the penalty by crossing their arms at their chest with their palms facing down. The penalty for a delay of game is five yards.


A delay of game is a deliberate action by a player or team to stall the game, usually to their advantage. In some sports, a penalty can be issued if the delay is longer than the rules allow.


Found this explanation online. Don't know why it would be written if not true as the circumstances occur like once in a lifetime.
Kind of like the high school state semifinal several years ago when a Catholic League team seemingly won the game when the QB threw a long pass out of bounds on purpose as time expired. He got called for intentional grounding, the other team kicked a field goal with 0:00 on the clock and then won in OT. That was a once-in-a-lifetime play ... of course, the exact same thing had happened in a major college football game 7 days earlier so I guess we have all lived two lifetimes.

Anyway, I guess the refs decided that the qb by going backward on purpose was stalling the game to their advantage. Hence, the five-yard delay of game penalty and clock stoppage after first down. The next two plays, Providence called timeouts and the qb stopped walking backward and immediately took a knee so no penalty. He was probably told by his coach to do that on second and third down.
Problem for us is that we have probably never seen that called before. The ref behind the defensive line immediately threw the flag when the qb was walked backward with the ball.
If that's the rule, then that's the rule and all of us complaining about the refs blowing the game are wrong and the refs are correct. Note that the St. Francis coach clearly understood the explanation as he patted a ref on the butt as the teams were organizing for the second-down play.
The point, I guess, is that you have to count that first-down play as a down and stop the clock on the penalty. Otherwise the QB could deliberately stall the game and run out the clock by taking "delay of game" penalties all the way back to his team's 1-yard line or until the clock hits 0:00, whichever comes first.

 

[SiuCubFan8]

From daily herald:

“[The official] said it was a delay of game because the quarterback didn’t take an immediate kneeldown,” McMillen said. “He took two steps back and then stood there. It’s a call the official made.”

So that was the call. Is this an actual rule in HS football? If not absolutely brutal.

 

[Roscrea]

The quarterback should've immediately taken a knee. Even with the hesitation, the referee should allow the play to stand and warned him if you don't immediately take a knee the next time I'm calling you for delay a game. The referee decided the outcome of this game.

 

[ref2]

wasn't there so no clue what happened. One thing to consider , don't know if this was the case here. But under 2 minutes the offended team, this case Provi, has the choice of will the clock start on the snap or the ready

 

[refref01]

The issue is for safety sake Providence isnt allowed to rush there. SF was going to take a knee. They delayed. Call should have been Dead ball Unsportsmanlike and loss of 15 yards, then 2nd down Delay of game was called and it can be that as well and saves SF 10 yards.

Why does penalty look like 10 yards....because SF QB didnt take a knee he walked back a few yards maybe 5 and then there are 5 more yards for penalty second down.

In high school football if you say you are taking a knee, take a knee. If not that can happen. It looks bad but not necessarily incorrect. I wasnt there but thats who things have transpired. Im not digging through the rulebook though either.

 

[colin2229]

What you described is 100% legal in the confines of the NFHS rule book. QB is not required to immediately kneel. Also- even if it was delay of game it would never constitute loss of down.

You’re incorrect

 

[LHSTigers94]

@LHSTigers94 what do you think about teams blaming the refs for a L 🤔

Bad business lol. Sounds like clock management from what I am reading in this thread. As a team, you can only control what you can control. Blaming officials is a tool to make you feel better about the loss. Unfortunately it doesn’t fix what need to be fixed to help execute better the next game.

 

[SiuCubFan8]

This is what I am thinking:
There is no "delay of game" penalty in HS rule book for not immediately taking a knee, i cannot 100% confirm but cannot find anything that says it is.
With that said I think when you are taking a knee two things happen:
1. Coach or QB tell ref they are taking a knee.
or
2. The "victory" formation shows that.
This leads the refs to inform the lines, hence why you see the lines basically just put hands on each other. Makes sense to deescalate emotions for player safety. Now if the O then runs a play which they are going full force, and the D isn't an Un sportsmanship penalty can be called and warranted. Again, for player safety. In this situation that is not what happened, in no way was a play trying to be run and no player was at a safety risk. So, either the refs called a penalty that doesn't exist in HS football, called a penalty that is discretionary but didn't call it correctly or who the hell knows at this point lol.

In regard to the final play. I don't think it was a catch, but I can accept not seeing it etc...it happens all the time.
I do expect refs to know the rules and properly enforce them.

 

[SiuCubFan8]

Bad business lol. Sounds like clock management from what I am reading in this thread. As a team, you can only control what you can control. Blaming officials is a tool to make you feel better about the loss. Unfortunately it doesn’t fix what need to be fixed to help execute better the next game.

I think folks want to understand what the heck happened and what the actual correct call should have been...

 

[colin2229]

This is what I am thinking:
There is no "delay of game" penalty in HS rule book for not immediately taking a knee, i cannot 100% confirm but cannot find anything that says it is.
With that said I think when you are taking a knee two things happen:
1. Coach or QB tell ref they are taking a knee.
or
2. The "victory" formation shows that.
This leads the refs to inform the lines, hence why you see the lines basically just put hands on each other. Makes sense to deescalate emotions for player safety. Now if the O then runs a play which they are going full force, and the D isn't an Un sportsmanship penalty can be called and warranted. Again, for player safety. In this situation that is not what happened, in no way was a play trying to be run and no player was at a safety risk. So, either the refs called a penalty that doesn't exist in HS football, called a penalty that is discretionary or who the hell knows at this point lol.

Every team should be going over this in film this

 

[LHSTigers94]

I think folks want to understand what the heck happened and what the actual correct call should have been...

I know this will be unpopular in this thread but the correct call should have been to not get a penalty while taking a knee. Even if there shouldn’t have been a loss of down, it was and everybody knew it. At that point with 2 time outs left, you need to try and get a first down to prevent another possession. Anything can happen so don’t chance it. If the coach was confused, he should have taking a time out to get an understanding. The clock had stop with the penalty therefore taking a time out couldn’t hurt. If he wasn’t confused then this thread is pointless as whatever happened was within the rules.

 

[DMurph11]

I know this will be unpopular in this thread but the correct call should have been to not get a penalty while taking a knee. Even if there shouldn’t have been a loss of down, it was and everybody knew it. At that point with 2 time outs left, you need to try and get a first down to prevent another possession. Anything can happen so don’t chance it. If the coach was confused, he should have taking a time out to get an understanding. The clock had stop with the penalty therefore taking a time out couldn’t hurt. If he wasn’t confused then this thread is pointless as whatever happened was within the rules.

With your opponent having 2 timeouts and 50 seconds on the clock, barring a situation like last night the game is over. Let them burn their 2 timeouts, you’ll be able to run the clock down to just seconds left and then punt out of bounds to bring it to 0:00.

Either way SF will either use this outcome to get better or let it derail a season that still has plenty of promise. Bigger issue is back to back weeks can’t get down 17-0 to Rita and 14-0 to Provi. Up to them now how they respond.

 

[stripes13]

I’ll call them back.

@stripes13 @Chief321 @Zebra @William Foster

I wasn’t there. Not fair for me to comment.

 

[SiuCubFan8]

I wasn’t there. Not fair for me to comment.

Does “delay of game” penalty exist in HS for not immediately taking a knee?

 

[DMurph11]

I wasn’t there. Not fair for me to comment.

There’s a replay in this thread if you got a few minutes to take a look at the sequence, it starts at 2:42:40

 

[stripes13]

Does “delay of game” penalty exist in HS for not immediately taking a knee?

I wasn’t there. Not fair for me to comment.

 

[Badger Pete]

Does “delay of game” penalty exist in HS for not immediately taking a knee?

No it doesn't it, but if you tell the refs you are taking a knee and don't do it right away, it can be considered unsportsmanlike, not a delay of game.

 

[SiuCubFan8]

No it doesn't it, but if you tell the refs you are taking a knee and don't do it right away, it can be considered unsportsmanlike, not a delay of game.

That is what I thought. And the point of that is player safety/running up score , which I get. Man that’s quite the discretionary flag for unsportsmanlike in that situation…just saying. And they called it delay of game…they didn’t know the rules.🤦‍♂️

 

[SiuCubFan8]

I wasn’t there. Not fair for me to comment.

I’ll respect you protecting your own but it’s a pretty cut and dry rule question.

 

[LHSTigers94]

With your opponent having 2 timeouts and 50 seconds on the clock, barring a situation like last night the game is over. Let them burn their 2 timeouts, you’ll be able to run the clock down to just seconds left and then punt out of bounds to bring it to 0:00.

Either way SF will either use this outcome to get better or let it derail a season that still has plenty of promise. Bigger issue is back to back weeks can’t get down 17-0 to Rita and 14-0 to Provi. Up to them now how they respond.

Agreed. Good luck the rest of the way.

 

[DMurph11]

That is what I thought. And the point of that is player safety/running up score , which I get. Man that’s quite the discretionary flag for unsportsmanlike in that situation…just saying.

So if the correct call was unsportsmanlike, in that situation it does seem like based on some commentary above from one of the refs on this board that Providence has the choice to start the clock at the ready or at the snap (with at the snap effectively giving them a 3rd timeout)

 

[SiuCubFan8]

So if the correct call was unsportsmanlike, in that situation it does seem like based on some commentary above from one of the refs on this board that Providence has the choice to start the clock at the ready or at the snap (with at the snap effectively giving them a 3rd timeout)

And that is where all the confusion comes in. Unless SF HC misspoke, he said delay of game in interview with Herald.
The unsportsmanlike I guess does happen after the snap therefore there wasn't technically a "loss of down" and it was correctly 2nd down. So, Refs called a penalty that didn't exist in HS but can say it was supposed to be unsportsmanlike. That is how I take it. Not gonna change anything just wanted to know what in the heck happened. I am sure some student broadcasters would have had it all sorted out for us. 😆

 

[Simon "GHOST' Riley]

Sloche on Instagram, high school football account, has a photo of the endzone and it does look like a drop.

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I admit I am biased toward SF because I am a graduate and my eyesight is terrible, but JFC!

 

[corey90]

The quarterback should've immediately taken a knee. Even with the hesitation, the referee should allow the play to stand and warned him if you don't immediately take a knee the next time I'm calling you for delay a game. The referee decided the outcome of this game.

I would like to see in the rules where it states a quarterback has to take a knee immediately after the snap. That’s is silly and to be sure I have seen plenty of HS games where the QB not only doesn’t take a knee but runs backwards to use time off the clock. In this case the ball is moved to line where the QB took a knee. No plenty the ball is marked where he took the knee. If this is not the case then the refs haven’t made this call in a lot of games.

 

[Roscrea]

I would like to see in the rules where it states a quarterback has to take a knee immediately after the snap. That’s is silly and to be sure I have seen plenty of HS games where the QB not only doesn’t take a knee but runs backwards to use time off the clock. In this case the ball is moved to line where the QB took a knee. No plenty the ball is marked where he took the knee. If this is not the case then the refs haven’t made this call in a lot of games.

In a victory formation and the refs are told he is taking a knee, the quarterback is not allowed to run around back there and burn clock because the defense does not have the opportunity to chase him

 

[crusader_of_90]

 

[SiuCubFan8]

In a victory formation and the refs are told he is taking a knee, the quarterback is not allowed to run around back there and burn clock because the defense does not have the opportunity to chase him

Yes and just for clarity SF QB didn’t run around, took two steps back, paused for a second then knee.

If they were trying to call unsportsmanlike, which they didn’t, that’s like getting a ticket for 31 in a 30 not what it’s intended for but it is what it is at this point.

 

[corey90]

In a victory formation and the refs are told he is taking a knee, the quarterback is not allowed to run around back there and burn clock because the defense does not have the opportunity to chase him

Okay makes sense as long as they notified the ref they were in a victory formation and were taking a knee. I assume if they were to tell the ref they were doing such then they would have no reason to run around because the clock would automatically expire after the plays were run. It sounds pretty petty if the QB took to steps back and took a knee to call a penalty.

 

[Gestalt45]

In a victory formation and the refs are told he is taking a knee, the quarterback is not allowed to run around back there and burn clock because the defense does not have the opportunity to chase him

This is a “spirit of the law” concept- in reality there is no such rule in the NFHS rule book that addresses or enforces this.

 

[IgorStL]

A delay should mean dead ball foul, thus 1st and 15 (offended team can always refuse the yardage), but the box read 2 (second down) for the subsequent snap. Didn't help that the scoreboard was never updated during the series. Errors in "downs" can be corrected, as in this instance.

Talked to a zebra at my son's freshman game about this, one of the guys was on that crew. When a knee is declared, the refs tell both sides to back off. He said the SF QB took the snap and stood there for a few seconds before kneeling. While the delay did occur during the play, they consider it a dead ball foul, because otherwise, it would just help the offending team run the clock out. Theoretically, an offense could keep doing that, and it would always be 1st down, and keep running game time off the clock.

 

[IgorStL]

This is a “spirit of the law” concept- in reality there is no such rule in the NFHS rule book that addresses or enforces this.

I don't think it's in the rule book, but I don't think the "taking a knee" concept is either, when engagement would cause a personal foul.

 

[IgorStL]

Umpire called it a live ball foul "Delay of Game". QB was supposed to take a knee ASAP. Instead, it should have been called unsportsmanlike conduct, as St Francis QB should have gone knee to the ground, without hesitation, since Providence was not rushing.

And #4, illegal forward handling.

They actually did SF a favor by not calling it unsportsmanlike. Same result with a down used and a stopped clock, but only got walked off 5 instead of 15.