Please don’t let this happen

[crazylegs777]

Merry Christmas & Happy New Year to all. If you think Illinois Football is crazy try Tennessee. Don’t let it happen in Illinois. They split public & private schools years ago. Some Public Schools who won state in football say oh we would have beat those Private School champs if we played. Thanks to the split we have 3 watered down classes in private & 6 in public. There are 8 regions in each class & the top 4 go to the playoffs. Some regions have 6,7,8 teams in them & some have 4 so you realistically can have 3-7,2-8,1-9 or 0-10 teams in the playoffs!!! Some teams petition to be put in those 4 team or 5 team regions to level it out but those mostly get declined. Some teams 5-5 or 6-4 get left out. Alcoa is like East St Louis. They are a 2A school playing in 3A & just won their 10th state title in a row. They are now 3A & opting to play 4A. They have a difficult time getting teams to play them. They had to play a team from New York last year & only had 9 games(Tennessee plays 10 game seasons & has a week 0) this year. Bad flooding cancelled games & teams that ended up having a open date would not play them. They play many 6A schools & lose close or beat those teams. If you go on Coach T look up the Milan(starting a separate school for students to keep their enrollment low) & Alcoa threads for one but like I said if you guys think Illinois football is crazy. Oh & trans trying to build up their football programs can play Independent but can’t make the state playoffs. Also if you do a Co-Op they don’t total your enrollment. So a 300 student school combines with a 400 student school it only counts as the host school enrollment 300 not 700 total.

 

[crazylegs777]

2 county schools more than 3 times the size of Alcoa have stopped playing them losing thousands of dollars in $$$$$ because Alcoa is drilling them while other schools move up a class to avoid playing them. What I’m saying is complaints & madness in every state

 

[Alexander32]

It sounds like districts (apparently called regions in Tennessee) are more the problem than the separation of public and private schools.

I remember two or three years ago a contributor to this board, who lived in Tennessee, made several favorable comments about the Tennessee system. As I recall, he liked the fact that privates and publics were separate. I did some online research at the time to see if the two sets of schools ever did play each other occasionally. I soon found out why the regions and playoffs were separate.

Naturally, with regional play and playoffs separate, the only time the two sets of schools could play would be the one or two non-region games the teams were allowed to play each year. As is my usual method, I was looking for games between the two sets of schools when both schools made the playoff semifinals that year, to ensure both schools were top caliber in their respective playoffs. There were only a handful of games that met the criteria over several seasons. In every case the private school won the game by more than 30 points.

It is no wonder Tennessee has separate playoffs for its private and public schools.

 

[doctor_d]

I’ve said many times that I’m not looking for separation, but Texas is near the pinnacle of school ball and they are separated. I get to hear about it fairly often from one of my best childhood/high school friends, who now has lived in the Dallas area for the past 25 years as a teacher and formerly a football coach/now a ref. The only difference is that in Texas, the big public schools are considered better, but I haven’t done the research to find out if the small/medium size schools have much head to head to compare.

 

[GoBlers]

I’ve said many times that I’m not looking for separation, but Texas is near the pinnacle of school ball and they are separated. I get to hear about it fairly often from one of my best childhood/high school friends, who now has lived in the Dallas area for the past 25 years as a teacher and formerly a football coach/now a ref. The only difference is that in Texas, the big public schools are considered better, but I haven’t done the research to find out if the small/medium size schools have much head to head to compare.

The best public schools in Texas recruit more than the Illinois privates do lol. Plenty of boosters with tons of $$$ moving in talent.

 

[corey90]

I’ve said many times that I’m not looking for separation, but Texas is near the pinnacle of school ball and they are separated. I get to hear about it fairly often from one of my best childhood/high school friends, who now has lived in the Dallas area for the past 25 years as a teacher and formerly a football coach/now a ref. The only difference is that in Texas, the big public schools are considered better, but I haven’t done the research to find out if the small/medium size schools have much head to head to compare.

I agree Dr.
I don’t want to see it split either, but as long as Privates are allowed to recruit and Publics can’t the two sides will never agree. It’s heading that way and unless the IHSA comes up with a magical formula that both sides agree. I see the split happening in a few years. Anyone who thinks recruiting isn’t a huge advantage is just lying.

 

[SiuCubFan8]

I agree Dr.
I don’t want to see it split either, but as long as Privates are allowed to recruit and Publics can’t the two sides will never agree. It’s heading that way and unless the IHSA comes up with a magical formula that both sides agree. I see the split happening in a few years. Anyone who thinks recruiting isn’t a huge advantage is just lying.

Anyone who doesn’t think public schools recruit is lying…just saying. It’s only going to get worse and the gap regardless of public/private will continue to grown from top teams to good teams, IMO.

 

[crazylegs777]

Anyone who doesn’t think public schools recruit is lying…just saying. It’s only going to get worse and the gap regardless of public/private will continue to grown from top teams to good teams, IMO

 

[crazylegs777]

Not that Private Schools are perfect but the piss poor shape many public schools are in is the perfect recruiting tool for private schools.

 

[SiuCubFan8]

Not that Private Schools are perfect but the piss poor shape many public schools are in is the perfect recruiting tool for private schools.

I mean that’s totally district to district and even more micro school to school.

 

[doctor_d]

The best public schools in Texas recruit more than the Illinois privates do lol. Plenty of boosters with tons of $$$ moving in talent.

No doubt. Texas is on another level in many ways. There are multiple large metro areas across the state.
I was more looking at what they have for medium size and smaller schools in the 300-800 range. The ones you don’t normally hear about like Duncanville, Carroll, North Shore, DeSoto…. The 300-~800 (more likely up to about 5A) range here in IL is where most of the angst comes from, and is also the range where I’ve heard multiple CCL fans/supporters on this message board express opinions that would sympathize with the public side.

 

[corey90]

Anyone who doesn’t think public schools recruit is lying…just saying. It’s only going to get worse and the gap regardless of public/private will continue to grown from top teams to good teams, IMO.

Not saying a public school hasn’t recruited? The difference is for Privates it’s legal within the rules. Publics can only get players within there district. Yes some publics may have recruited by talking to a player but in all cases the player and family would have to move in there district. I have no proof of this happening except on a rare occasion when it’s been proven by the IHSA. Privates recruit daily with no problem because they have too recruit to get kids. It’s just is an unfair advantage when it comes to Athletes. You’re kidding yourself if you don’t think there’s an advantage. That said I do understand both sides and there will never be a total agreement. This surfaces every year that I have been on Edgy. I don’t know the answer on how to fix it that will will satisfy both sides. I suggested success factor for both Privates and Publics. That won’t do anything for 8A. I am okay with 8A because I am an East fan, but others that are not competitive might not agree. I just think a split is prolly coming if an agreement can’t be made. I hope both sides can agree because it would be a shame to split.

 

[ramblinman]

The 300-~800 (more likely up to about 5A) range here in IL is where most of the angst comes from

Who, specifically, is causing that angst? Rochester with its 754 students? Byron with 449? Williamsville? Wilmington? Richmond-Burton? The size range you state (by the way, I see you have modified your earlier claim of 1A-4A) is basically the range where public schools have been fairly dominant in recent years. Seriously, what class or classes are you talking about here? 1A? Nope. Almost an exclusive public school club there. 4A? They should simply rename that the Rochester class. 2A? 3A? What?

 

[ramblinman]

Privates recruit daily with no problem because they have too recruit to get kids. It’s just is an unfair advantage when it comes to Athletes.

Prove it, then. Knock yourself out.

All you can do is point to successful private schools as proof of an "unfair advantage." You cannot prove the correlation.

How is it an advantage for Leo, DeLaSalle, St. Pat's, St Bede, ACC, St Ed's, etc.?

You’re kidding yourself if you don’t think there’s an advantage.

And you and hundreds of others have talked yourselves into believing that there is one without a shred of proof.

I don’t know the answer on how to fix it that will will satisfy both sides.

There is no fix.

I suggested success factor for both Privates and Publics. That won’t do anything for 8A.

Does 8A need relief from the big, bad private schools?

I am okay with 8A because I am an East fan,

Phew! Thought you were about to go in a different direction for a hot second.

but others that are not competitive might not agree.

What does not being competitive in 8A mean? Are you referring to teams that beat everyone else except private schools? There really aren't many like that other than LWE, York, and Maine South in recent years. If not them, who? Seriously, who are you talking about here? If they aren't competitive against private or public schools, then it is simply a case that they just don't like losing to private schools in the playoffs (but somehow losing to other public schools is more acceptable), which is a phenomenon I have identified for years as something that galls most public schools to no end.

 

[corey90]

Prove it, then. Knock yourself out.

All you can do is point to successful private schools as proof of an "unfair advantage." You cannot prove the correlation.

How is it an advantage for Leo, DeLaSalle, St. Pat's, St Bede, ACC, St Ed's, etc.?



And you and hundreds of others have talked yourselves into believing that there is one without a shred of proof.



There is no fix.



Does 8A need relief from the big, bad private schools?



Phew! Thought you were about to go in a different direction for a hot second.



What does not being competitive in 8A mean? Are you referring to teams that beat everyone else except private schools? There really aren't many like that other than LWE, York, and Maine South in recent years. If not them, who? Seriously, who are you talking about here? If they aren't competitive against private or public schools, then it is simply a case that they just don't like losing to private schools in the playoffs (but somehow losing to other public schools is more acceptable), which is a phenomenon I have identified for years as something that galls most public schools to no end.

There are plenty Public schools in 8A that are competitive with other public 8A schools. Didn’t I say this doesn’t apply to 8A since they highest class you can go. We are talking about others that can play up but choose to play where they are assured a championship trophy. Private and Public.

 

[corey90]

Phew! Thought you were about to go in a different direction for a hot second.

Ramblinman if course you did because you are so quick to attack you’re blind to reality.

 

[doctor_d]

Who, specifically, is causing that angst? Rochester with its 754 students? Byron with 449? Williamsville? Wilmington? Richmond-Burton? The size range you state (by the way, I see you have modified your earlier claim of 1A-4A) is basically the range where public schools have been fairly dominant in recent years. Seriously, what class or classes are you talking about here? 1A? Nope. Almost an exclusive public school club there. 4A? They should simply rename that the Rochester class. 2A? 3A? What?

Specific individuals? I don’t know. Not me. I’ve made my points known. Numerous times. Don’t shoot the messenger.
I’ve just seen a lot of noise on social media about the topic.

I’ve said before that it mostly seems a knee jerk reaction to the recently completed season. And yet AGAIN, I’ve stated my opinion over and over that if ultra successful privates get a success factor adjustment, then ultra successful publics should as well. Stop coming at me guns blazin’ all the time.

 

[cenrik71]

Who, specifically, is causing that angst? Rochester with its 754 students? Byron with 449? Williamsville? Wilmington? Richmond-Burton? The size range you state (by the way, I see you have modified your earlier claim of 1A-4A) is basically the range where public schools have been fairly dominant in recent years. Seriously, what class or classes are you talking about here? 1A? Nope. Almost an exclusive public school club there. 4A? They should simply rename that the Rochester class. 2A? 3A? What?

It wasn't a controversial argument until DePaul Prep ran the table on them this past post season!!!
Central to southern Illinois generational programs lost their marbles over a "chicago-true cook county" private school taking their precious trophy!!
The IHSA machine got to work right away to "fix the unfair advantage of private schools!!! The state's programs on 1A to 4A cried and cried enough to protect their participation ribbons. Nobody complains about the 5A to 8A classes.... except the "One town, one program" people.

 

[doctor_d]

It wasn't a controversial argument until DePaul Prep ran the table on them this past post season!!!
Central to southern Illinois generational programs lost their marbles over a "chicago-true cook county" private school taking their precious trophy!!
The IHSA machine got to work right away to "fix the unfair advantage of private schools!!! The state's programs on 1A to 4A cried and cried enough to protect their participation ribbons. Nobody complains about the 5A to 8A classes.... except the "One town, one program" people.

Umm.. I don’t understand your first sentence. The public vs private debate has been raging on for decades, long before DePaul got their title this season. Even that particular day, the “controversy” (if you follow social media) began about noon when Althoff was putting a bow on their 1A title win.

Secondly, the IHSA “got to work right away” to fix an obvious and glaring gaffe in the way they gathered enrollment data for all schools, public and private.

I usually try to stay pretty neutral and open minded, but gloating about your school of 1200 beating up on rural schools of 650-700 isn’t the best look, IMHO. Congrats on the title, though.

 

[Snetsrak61]

Who, specifically, is causing that angst? Rochester with its 754 students? Byron with 449? Williamsville? Wilmington? Richmond-Burton? The size range you state (by the way, I see you have modified your earlier claim of 1A-4A) is basically the range where public schools have been fairly dominant in recent years. Seriously, what class or classes are you talking about here? 1A? Nope. Almost an exclusive public school club there. 4A? They should simply rename that the Rochester class. 2A? 3A? What?

Obviously 5A is the biggest angst he's referring to...

 

[cenrik71]

Umm.. I don’t understand your first sentence. The public vs private debate has been raging on for decades, long before DePaul got their title this season. Even that particular day, the “controversy” (if you follow social media) began about noon when Althoff was putting a bow on their 1A title win.

Secondly, the IHSA “got to work right away” to fix an obvious and glaring gaffe in the way they gathered enrollment data for all schools, public and private.

I usually try to stay pretty neutral and open minded, but gloating about your school of 1200 beating up on rural schools of 650-700 isn’t the best look, IMHO. Congrats on the title, thoughof

 

[cenrik71]

It is clear that if the outcome of those games were different there wouldn't have been such an outcry. DePaul missed the playoffs the year before and was a building program prior to that. I wondered what would have been the argument if our enrollment was still around 800, as previously recorded. At the end of the day all those kids, on both sides, suited up and played the game.
Kudos to all the teams that made the playoffs. They all earned it. But the results were earned by the efforts on the field, not by enrollment.

 

[doctor_d]

It is clear that if the outcome of those games were different there wouldn't have been such an outcry. DePaul missed the playoffs the year before and was a building program prior to that. I wondered what would have been the argument if our enrollment was still around 800, as previously recorded. At the end of the day all those kids, on both sides, suited up and played the game.
Kudos to all the teams that made the playoffs. They all earned it. But the results were earned by the efforts on the field, not by enrollment.

I can get behind what is stated in the majority of this post. If you go back and revisit what you posted at 4:36AM it is quite a different tone. The CCL teams go where the IHSA sends them. The results are always based on the efforts on the field and in the weight room, etc…
It actually is a good story to see the rise of DePaul Prep. Clearly they are building something there. It just seemed like you were crowing and mocking the IHSA and more importantly, some of the opponents you defeated along the way. If I misinterpreted your post from this morning, then you have my apologies.

 

[ramblinman]

Specific individuals? I don’t know.

No, more like fans and school communities. You stated, "The 300-~800 (more likely up to about 5A) range here in IL is where most of the angst comes from" Who in that range is feeling that angst? The reason why I ask is because I believe their angst is unfounded, for reasons I have previously stated relative to 1A being owned by public schools for 17 of the past 18 years, Rochester owning 4A, etc. Obviously, it's public school apologists. But I truly feel that whining begets whining. I feel like people talk themselves into believing certain things not because of facts but because they have hopped aboard a bandwagon.

I’ve just seen a lot of noise on social media about the topic.

Then it must be true.

I’ve said before that it mostly seems a knee jerk reaction to the recently completed season.

I believe that too. Sorry if I haven't seen you say that here amid all the flurry of posts on the topic.

 

[mc140]

I’ve said many times that I’m not looking for separation, but Texas is near the pinnacle of school ball and they are separated. I get to hear about it fairly often from one of my best childhood/high school friends, who now has lived in the Dallas area for the past 25 years as a teacher and formerly a football coach/now a ref. The only difference is that in Texas, the big public schools are considered better, but I haven’t done the research to find out if the small/medium size schools have much head to head to compare.

Private schools by and large are equivalent CPS white level competition in Texas..

 

[HRCJR]

I can get behind what is stated in the majority of this post. If you go back and revisit what you posted at 4:36AM it is quite a different tone. The CCL teams go where the IHSA sends them. The results are always based on the efforts on the field and in the weight room, etc…
It actually is a good story to see the rise of DePaul Prep. Clearly they are building something there. It just seemed like you were crowing and mocking the IHSA and more importantly, some of the opponents you defeated along the way. If I misinterpreted your post from this morning, then you have my apologies.

I would love to see the enrollment map for DePaul. I have a feeling that 90% of the kids come from within 5 miles of the school

 

[kwamizee]

The best public schools in Texas recruit more than the Illinois privates do lol. Plenty of boosters with tons of $$$ moving in talent.

To bolster your point, some these schools have gotten talent from as far as up here.

 

[doctor_d]

No, more like fans and school communities. You stated, "The 300-~800 (more likely up to about 5A) range here in IL is where most of the angst comes from" Who in that range is feeling that angst? The reason why I ask is because I believe their angst is unfounded, for reasons I have previously stated relative to 1A being owned by public schools for 17 of the past 18 years, Rochester owning 4A, etc. Obviously, it's public school apologists. But I truly feel that whining begets whining. I feel like people talk themselves into believing certain things not because of facts but because they have hopped aboard a bandwagon.



Then it must be true.



I believe that too. Sorry if I haven't seen you say that here amid all the flurry of posts on the topic.

I'm not certain who the individuals were or what schools they were affiliated with. I was reading all the replies to the IHSA facebook posts regarding the individual championship games. Not every person identified with particular schools and I didn't take the time to look up their profiles to see where they were all allegedly from. I just noticed that there seemed to be a lot more vitriol than in past years. From what I assume are casual fans. I'm not saying that all of the angst is founded. I'm just saying that it was present. If your desire is to separate and form the NIPL, the time seems right. The two sides are about as far apart as they've ever been.

 

[ramblinman]

I would love to see the enrollment map for DePaul. I have a feeling that 90% of the kids come from within 5 miles of the school

Probably. At the same time. I think you would be surprised by some of the outliers within the 10%.

 

[Propbet]

I agree Dr.
I don’t want to see it split either, but as long as Privates are allowed to recruit and Publics can’t the two sides will never agree. It’s heading that way and unless the IHSA comes up with a magical formula that both sides agree. I see the split happening in a few years. Anyone who thinks recruiting isn’t a huge advantage is just lying.

You really believe that “recruiting” 8th graders to attend a private school equates to some large advantage three to four years later when they are on Varsity? I think this argument would get more traction if there was rampant recruiting of Jrs and Srs, but everyone is claiming poor me because of 8th graders?

If private schools were crushing public’s at the freshman level then maybe. But go look at the TCYFL youth football league and see the advantage that all of these public schools have with feeder teams running their offense and wearing replica uniforms starting in 4th grade.

IHSA gave you the DEI state finals this year. The quarters and semis were more competitive in 1a through 4a so the arguments about the Championship games are hollow. The public administrators that posted they were the public school state champions shouldn’t have said when their counterparts in the quarters or semis played much closer games against the private schools and nearly won.

 

[sac'em]

You really believe that “recruiting” 8th graders to attend a private school equates to some large advantage three to four years later when they are on Varsity? I think this argument would get more traction if there was rampant recruiting of Jrs and Srs, but everyone is claiming poor me because of 8th graders?

If private schools were crushing public’s at the freshman level then maybe. But go look at the TCYFL youth football league and see the advantage that all of these public schools have with feeder teams running their offense and wearing replica uniforms starting in 4th grade.

IHSA gave you the DEI state finals this year. The quarters and semis were more competitive in 1a through 4a so the arguments about the Championship games are hollow. The public administrators that posted they were the public school state champions shouldn’t have said when their counterparts in the quarters or semis played much closer games against the private schools and nearly won.

Obviously. We saw how little impact freshman can have on a varsity game when Mt. Carmel displayed their Freshman talent over Thanksgiving weekend. Everyone saw how little those players can contribute to the success of a varsity football team. Public schools have no basis to say that recruiting 8th graders does not have any major impact for years to come. GTFOH...

 

[jha618]

You really believe that “recruiting” 8th graders to attend a private school equates to some large advantage three to four years later when they are on Varsity? I think this argument would get more traction if there was rampant recruiting of Jrs and Srs, but everyone is claiming poor me because of 8th graders?

I am not sure if you are aware, but eventually (usually in 3 or 4 years) those 8th graders turn in to juniors and seniors.

 

[SiuCubFan8]

By the time a kid is in 8th grade you "most likely" know if he will be a good HS football player. Yes, I know kids do grow/blow up in weight room and come out of nowhere at times, but the athletes have separated themselves by 8th grade.

 

[PowerI66]

IHSA gave you the DEI state finals this year.

 

[crazylegs777]

Something I forgot to add is on the books here. This year in week 7(they play 10
games here during 11 weeks) a kid was starting QB & his team lost. The school down the street lost their starting QB that week to an injury. So the kid transferred there & started for his new school the very next week & beat the school that beat him in week 7!!!!!

 

[jha618]

Something I forgot to add is on the books here. This year in week 7(they play 10
games here during 11 weeks) a kid was starting QB & his team lost. The school down the street lost their starting QB that week to an injury. So the kid transferred there & started for his new school the very next week & beat the school that beat him in week 7!!!!!

Sounds interesting. What school was this?

 

[AmbroseBlack]

IHSA gave you the DEI state finals this year. The quarters and semis were more competitive in 1a through 4a so the arguments about the Championship games are hollow. The public administrators that posted they were the public school state champions shouldn’t have said when their counterparts in the quarters or semis played much closer games against the private schools and nearly won.

DeKalb Education Insitute?

 

[crazylegs777]

Sounds interesting. What school was this?

I’m looking it up hold on & thank you!!! It’s out of control

 

[crazylegs777]

Sounds interesting. What school was this?

I told the story wrong I’m sorry but look up Cash Bandy but I swear there was another who played & transferred after

 

[SiuCubFan8]

Sounds interesting. What school was this?

It's in TN.