And Montini won 5 in 7 years, finishing second in the two years they didn't win
More info on public/private committee
- Thread starter sporthog9er
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Beginning with 2001 (the first year eight classes existed) here is the complete numerical list of titles won in each class by public schools and private schools.
8A public-17; private-4
7A public-14; private-7
6A public-12; private-9
5A public-4; private-17
4A public-10; private-11
3A public-13; private-8
2A public-15; private-6
1A public-20; private-1
Total public-105; private-63
There is also the question of how concentrated the power is within specific schools. Here is a list of the 13 schools that won at least four state championships over that same time period. Private schools are in bold type.
Rochester-8
Driscoll-7
Sacred Heart-Griffin-6
IC Catholic-6
Lena-Winslow-6
Joliet Catholic-6
Montini-6
Mt. Carmel-5
East St. Louis-4
Nazareth-4
Sterling Newman-4
Maine South-4
Providence-4
The list is comprised mostly of Catholic schools, although the school with the most titles over that time period is a public school.
There is enough information here for both sides of the debate to make their respective cases, though I would suggest inconclusively. Equal opportunity is an elusive goal; some might say an unachievable goal. Perhaps a reasonable opportunity should be the objective here. With the IHSA having introduced some years ago the use of an enrollment multiplier and a success factor for private high schools, it seems a reasonable opportunity exists for both public schools and private schools to win state championships. That is my view and I'm satisfied with the current state of affairs in this matter. Nevertheless, that is just one man's opinion and I understand the debate/discussion will continue without a permanent end in sight.
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Well researched and well done. I completely agree if this subject is debated at the IHSA meeting it would be inconclusive as well and with both sides providing similar info as we all had and neither being able to prove with any certainty that there should be a change. It doesn’t tilt overwhelmingly in any sides favor. It’s not broke, don’t fix it.
Youth/HS sports are ruined by adults.
System works fine in it’s current format (other than the COVID era being factored into the equation, which was ridiculous)
Awesome stuff.
But All I'm seeing is that the private vs public debate is a northern issue. Three schools on the list you provided are from "Central or Southern" Illinois and only one is a private school. The discrepancy between upstate privates and downstate privates is infinite. I understand many up north don't care to see why downstate private schools fight to stay within a combined IHSA with public schools.
Piggy-backing off this data would be interesting:
In each separate class, what % of the all playoff qualifiers over the 21 seasons were public and private as compared to the % of their titlists? Even further, what % of football-playing member schools in each enrollment class were public and private as compared to the % of their titlists?
Tennessee has 6 classes of public playoffs and 3 classes of private playoffs.
Comparing Illinois with 8 classes with Tennessee in terms of competitive games. Here's the breakdown of quarterfinal/semifinal/final point spreads last fall (2022 season) in the two states.
Tennessee public classes: 42 total games (24 quarterfinals, 12 semifinals, 6 finals).
margin of playoff win:
1-score (1-8 pts): 12 games (29 pct.)
2-score (9-16 pts): 8 games (19 pct.)
3 or more scores (17 or more pts): 22 games (52 pct.)
Tennessee private classes: 21 total games (12 quarterfinals, 6 semifinals, 3 finals).
1-score (1-8 pts): 8 games (38 pct.)
2-score (9-16 pts): 3 games (14 pct.)
3 or more scores (17 or more pts.): 10 games (48 pct.)
Combining the public/privates together for 9-class totals (63 total games):
1-score (1-8 pts): 20 games (32 pct.)
2-score (9-16 pts): 11 games (17 pct.)
3 or more scores (17 or more pts.): 32 games (51 pct.)
Note: In the private division class 2, the champion won its three playoff games by 64, 37 and 42 points.
Illinois has 8 classes of playoffs.
Illinois: 56 total games (32 quarterfinals, 16 semifinals, 8 finals).
margin of playoff win:
1-score (1-8 pts): 11 games (20 pct.)
2-score (9-16 pts): 14 games (25 pct.)
3 or more scores (17 or more pts.): 31 games (55 pct.)
These are the numbers I came up with. You can decide for yourself if the playoffs are better in Tennessee or in Illinois.
I don't know about each separate class, but that information has been (in the past) calculated in the aggregate. The private schools have won 37.5% of the football championships while comprising about 12% of the playoff teams over the last 22 years. So they have won championships at a rate about 3 times greater than what would be expected based on their number of playoff teams.
There are different enrollment rules for different types of high schools in Illinois. That is true. There is evidence to support a conclusion that the different rules may provide a small advantage to a small number of high schools. That is true. However, because the advantage is small and the number of schools able to use that advantage to their benefit is small, it does not necessarily follow that separate playoffs are beneficial to the vast majority of IHSA member schools.
At any given time there seems to be a small handful of Catholic schools that are disproportionately successful. Right now that list might include Mt. Carmel, IC Catholic, Loyola, Nazareth and Joliet Catholic. The multiplier rule and success factor rule exist to mitigate the extent of their success. To be honest, at any given time there is also a small handful of public schools that are disproportionately successful. That list would presently include Lena-Winslow, East St. Louis, Rochester, Lincoln-Way East, and possibly Byron. The point is, both private and public high schools have a reasonable opportunity to win championships and be highly successful under the current set of rules.
As a matter of philosophical principle, it is generally considered unwise to make a sweeping change of large magnitude based on a small number of (possibly) undesirable outcomes. Students/players, coaches and fans benefit by not having a separate playoff for private high schools in Illinois. It is more meaningful to be a champion without needing to add an adjective such as "private" or "public".
What differentiates Lena Winslow and ESL? Arguably the most dominant teams of the last two decades despite being public schools? Also, Texas has a many more participating schools and the separation doesn't dilute the product as it would here.
Going back to my original post. Non boundary and boundary schools have different playing levels but we expect them to compete in same competition playoffs.......
Wow sharp. I'll clarify for you. What differentiates ESL (7A) and Lena (1A) from other public schools in 1A and 7A that allows them to dominate?
That is not true. Non-boundary schools that are successful are impacted by the multiplier and success factor. They are expected to compete in a more difficult classification than their enrollment would otherwise indicate. They are not treated the same as boundary schools. They face more difficult competition in the playoffs.
No chance in hell non and boundary schools are playing on level playing fields. You have coaches out there saying they are looking for the top talent to bring in to their program. How is that level playing fields?
ESL doesn't dominate 7A. Won, yes, dominate, no. Same can be said for 6A as well.
Why do boundary schools have overwhelmingly more State titles then Non Boundary in 8A and 7A, and let’s face if we dig back probably most of the other classes as well. End goal is to win State right? Scroll back to my posts from last week on this matter and it’s hard in the Boundaries favor.
I shouldn't put words in someone else's mouth, but what the heck. I am supposing he is saying what difference does it make that certain private schools sometimes dominate, when the same situation exists in relation to certain public schools.
In other words, why is it a crime (in a manner of speaking) that IC Catholic wins three championships over a five-year stretch, but it is not a crime that Lena-Winslow wins four championships over the same five-year stretch?
It is not wrong in a moral sense of the word "wrong". It could be construed as being wrong in the sense that it is not as beneficial to the various involved parties (players, coaches and fans). Why?
There are not enough private high schools in the state to hold a football playoff as enjoyable as the current setup. Last year 30 private high schools qualified for the playoffs across all eight classes (12% of the total qualifiers). That number of teams would suggest three ten-team playoffs might be in order; a large-school playoff, an intermediate playoff, and a small-school playoff. I will outline the large-school bracket and the problem should immediately hit one over the head like a figurative 2"by4".
Seeds:
1. Mt. Carmel (9-0)
2. Loyola (8-1)
3. Rockford Boylan (8-1)
4. St. Rita (7-2)
5. St. Ignatius (7-2)
6. Marist (6-3)
7. Niles Notre Dame (6-3)
8. Brother Rice (5-4)
9. Nazareth (5-4)
10. Fenwick (5-4)
Round One:
Niles Notre Dame vs. Fenwick
Brother Rice vs. Nazareth
Quarterfinal Round:
Mt. Carmel vs. (Brother Rice / Nazareth winner)
St. Rita vs. St. Ignatius
Rockford Boylan vs. Marist
Loyola vs. (Notre Dame / Fenwick winner)
Nine of the ten teams in this playoff are CCL/ESCC teams. Many, perhaps most, have already played each other during the regular season. We already largely have the answer to the question, who is the better team? Sure, upsets happen and no doubt there would be upsets in this small playoff. But the overriding question has already been answered. A playoff of teams that have already played each other is not as interesting as a playoff between intersectional teams. I'm not saying it would not be interesting. I am saying it would not be as interesting. The teams are good and most of the games would be competitive. It would be interesting, in the same manner that the Big 12 conference championship game in college football would be interesting. But it would not be as interesting as the national championship playoffs. Will it answer the question of who is better between Loyola and Lincoln-Way East? No!!! It will be the same teams that have played each other in the regular season; and it will be the same schools year after year. There will be little variety. If "variety is the spice of life", as the saying goes, this arrangement will fail miserably in comparison to a 32-team playoff between both private and public schools.
The intermediate playoff will have the same problem, though admittedly to a lesser extent. Five of the ten schools would be CCL/ESCC teams. The small-school playoff would have more of an intersectional flavor to it, but it would still largely be the same schools year after year.
Switching gears a bit, or turning a corner if you prefer, here are the four 8A schools that have won three or more state championships since 2001.
Maine South - 4
Loyola - 3
Lockport - 3
Lincoln-Way East - 3
Based on this evidence it would be difficult to say Loyola has a huge advantage over its public-school counterparts. It would certainly be difficult to say Marist has an advantage over Lincoln-Way East or Maine South. If they do, it is not showing up in championships. Marist has won zero state championships over that time period.
I cannot say it is "wrong" to have separate playoffs for private schools. I cannot say it is right to have separate playoffs. I can say, for the reasons given above, I think it is preferable to have private and public schools join each other in the playoffs.
This memo seems to have been missed by all the present-day social engineers in education, athletics, politics and the like who are hard at work trying to up-end the country with exactly these types of changes you describe.
I grew up and played HS football in Tennessee.
With 100% knowledge of both IL and TN football, the split between public/private hurt Tennessee HS football.
There are 6 public classes and 2 private classes. 8 total "champions" in a garbage water downed playoff system. There use to be 5 classes for everyone.
Have you seen some of the trash teams that get into the playoffs?
Have you seen what the private bracket looks like?
System works well as currently constructed. Counting the COVID year messed up everything and was a bone head idea, but that’s now behind us. No need to blow it up.
So the best argument people are positing against a split is that private schools play each other during the regular season?
That's what I said!!!!! 4 teams in each region make the playoffs.Some regions have only 5 teams & a few 4.You can go 0-10,1-9,2-8 & get in.Even 3-7.The 6A state champ Oakland finished 14-1.They lost to private A school CPA 35-14.CPA finished 8-6 & was beaten 42-0 in the private A playoffs
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I know this is a football board, since we all love the sport. But I think other sports (especially basketball) may ultimately drive the recommendation and the path forward.
As the initial vote on football districts proved, downstate schools ultimately have the most votes and will drive the way forward. Lots of the chatter here is about the dominance of Loyola and Mt. Carmel in football; but the success of Newman Catholic, Quincy Notre Dame, SHG and a few others will drive more change. Also
A few other random thoughts
1) As former Loyola parent, if we had to choose between having a separate division or reducing enrollment radius to say 12 or 15 miles, I know the school would pick a separate division. And it wouldn't even be a close decision.
2) This "new division" would likely be more than just current private schools. It would also likely include many of the Chicago charter/magnet schools who can recruit from across the city. Also some public schools downstate who do something similar. Decatur MacArthur comes to mind.
3) I actually think schools like Loyola, Niles ND, St. Iggy's, Benet could benefit from this new division in minor sports like lax, golf, tennis, assuming the new division would enable expanded season length and less restrictions on out of state games.
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Never hear suburban publics worrying about the advantage they have over all but maybe 3 cps teams each year when they win round 1, 40-0.
If they split state into privates and publics would these same suburban publics be as concerned cps teams aren't winning state titles in football?
If you want to even the competition then all schools need to be even.
If they split state into privates and publics would these same suburban publics be as concerned cps teams aren't winning state titles in football?
If you want to even the competition then all schools need to be even.
Yes, it is enjoyable to face new and different teams. It is enjoyable to play in new and different venues, to see different stadiums. It is enjoyable to see different parts of the state. The transformation of mystery into discovery is one of the great generators of enjoyment in life. It is one of the reasons people go on vacation; to see and experience new and different things.
When bracketing the NCAA college basketball tournament, the NCAA tries to avoid rematches between conference rivals for as long as possible. That is done partly for this same reason.
If it could, I suspect the DuPage Valley Conference would prefer not having to schedule conference rivals to play what would otherwise be a nonconference football game. It is generally not desirable playing a team for a second time. It would be more fun playing a new and different team. If that were not the case, then Naperville Central could just play Naperville North nine times for its regular season. Scheduling would be a lot easier in that scenario. That is taking the case to its logical extreme, but sometimes that is what it takes to make a subtle point much clearer. Variety is desirable.
The transformation of challenge into accomplishment is a second great generator of enjoyment in life. The challenge for top public teams to play top private teams, and vice versa, is another reason for not having separate playoffs. It is enjoyable to periodically challenge oneself. That is why we play games in the first place.
A third reason is that a 32-team playoff allows many teams to play two games more during the season than an 8-team playoff would allow. Players like to play. At least I know I did way back when I was in high school. I suspect that fact has not changed. I suppose the public schools could still construct a series of 32-team brackets if they reduced the number of playoff brackets from eight to seven, but the private schools could not reasonably do so. The private schools would either need to have schools as small as Ottawa Marquette playing schools as large as Loyola, or, apparently like Tennessee, they would need to allow 2-7 and 3-6 teams to qualify for the playoffs. Neither of those two circumstances seems desirable.
So, you might ask, why should the public schools care what happens to the private schools? It is simple common courtesy to show a consideration for others. In addition to reading, writing and arithmetic, perhaps our society would be better off if we also instructed our students in the precepts of morality and good manners. We seem to have taken a large step backwards in that regard over the last half century. This might be one area where our schools, by example, could teach their students a valuable lesson.
So, while avoiding a playoff that is an unnecessary repetition of the regular season is one reason to not separate the private schools from the public schools, as you can see, it is not the only reason. In summary, the playoffs are more enjoyable for all concerned when the public schools and private schools play together.
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What about when private schools get "random/unrecruited" transfers from public schools? Demonstrating good morals? Showing common courtesy?
I wonder how an Open Division bracket would look. Like Arizona uses.
Well the publics will not lose to LA, Mc, JCA, SR in the first three or four rounds of the playoffs if there is a split, they will just lose to LWE, MS, ESL or Rochester instead.
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All.... So public schools don't get random transfers? And yes I know they have to move from one district to another. Ratsy
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