More info on public/private committee

[sporthog9er]

Level field: Public, private schools form new IHSA committee to discuss competitive issues

The IHSA forms a new committee of public and non-boundary schools to discuss competitive issues, potential amendments, and find mutual perspectives.

www.pjstar.com

Probably should keep eyes on this. Says will meet before bylaw proposals in October. Interesting that this is stemming from those bylaw proposals last year, which garnered some feedback.

"Talking about a potential bylaw amendment"

"Guidelines for transfers between schools"

"Teams mainly made up of transfer athletes"

"How to curb that player movement"

"Multiplier will be ongoing subject"

 

[SEHSSTORM1]

Good.

 

[EdgyTim]

Level field: Public, private schools form new IHSA committee to discuss competitive issues

The IHSA forms a new committee of public and non-boundary schools to discuss competitive issues, potential amendments, and find mutual perspectives.

www.pjstar.com

Probably should keep eyes on this. Says will meet before bylaw proposals in October. Interesting that this is stemming from those bylaw proposals last year, which garnered some feedback.

"Talking about a potential bylaw amendment"

"Guidelines for transfers between schools"

"Teams mainly made up of transfer athletes"

"How to curb that player movement"

"Multiplier will be ongoing subject"

Just bring it to a member wide vote then move on.....just get it over with is my take. Either separate or don't and then live with it

 

[FCHS2019]

After being in Tennessee for two years now, blows my mind how much better the football playoffs are better here. because of the separation. Private schools here realize they have a recruiting edge and just go with it Looking back, it makes the Illinois private schools look weak wanting to beat up on schools they have an edge over..

 

[CCHS-Fan]

Thank you for your feedback HHS.

 

[FBFever7]

After being in Tennessee for two years now, blows my mind how much better the football playoffs are better here. because of the separation. Private schools here realize they have a recruiting edge and just go with it Looking back, it makes the Illinois private schools look weak wanting to beat up on schools they have an edge over..

I live in Tennessee & don't know what the hell you're talking about.Maryville,Alcoa,Knox West,Powell among other public schools recruit players better than any private school can.And I'm tired of hearing the public schools say oh we could have beat the private champions.Private schools aren't perfect but at least God is allowed in them & the piss poor shape of many of the public schools sends many to the privates.

 

[FBFever7]

And The Private schools in Tennessee get robbed blind by the TSSAA & should separate.A fun fact.A Mississippi High School won state in football in Tennessee.A private school in Tennessee got destroyed by a fire or Tornado.So they built a new high school in Mississippi over the state line & stayed in TSSAA

 

[McCaravan]

If the Private Schools were winning most classes year after year then it may be an issue but that’s just not the case here in IL…numerous public schools win every year in all different classes. 8A has been dominanted by public schools and 7A has had more then its share the past years with Wheaton North, Batavia, Glenbard West and ESL winning 7A. It only really seems to be an issue when they lose….People focus on MC, LA, JCA, and others and forget about the dominance of LWE, Maine South, Batavia, Glenbard West, WWS, Naperville Central Lockport and others. Even Stevenson dominated 8A not long ago…here is link, the proof is there, it’s not overwhelmingly one sided and the IHSA knows that.

IHSA Football Champions & Runners-Up

 

[Cross Bones]

If the Private Schools were winning most classes year after year then it may be an issue but that’s just not the case here in IL…numerous public schools win every year in all different classes. 8A has been dominanted by public schools and 7A has had more then its share the past years with Wheaton North, Batavia, Glenbard West and ESL winning 7A. It only really seems to be an issue when they lose….People focus on MC, LA, JCA, and others and forget about the dominance of LWE, Maine South, Batavia, Glenbard West, WWS, Naperville Central Lockport and others. Even Stevenson dominated 8A not long ago…here is link, the proof is there, it’s not overwhelmingly one sided and the IHSA knows that.

IHSA Football Champions & Runners-Up

We have to work on your definition of dominance.

 

[stripes13]

How about just leaving it to the players and the coaches?

Nobody else needs to be involved.

 

[SEHSSTORM1]

If the Private Schools were winning most classes year after year then it may be an issue but that’s just not the case here in IL…numerous public schools win every year in all different classes. 8A has been dominanted by public schools and 7A has had more then its share the past years with Wheaton North, Batavia, Glenbard West and ESL winning 7A. It only really seems to be an issue when they lose….People focus on MC, LA, JCA, and others and forget about the dominance of LWE, Maine South, Batavia, Glenbard West, WWS, Naperville Central Lockport and others. Even Stevenson dominated 8A not long ago…here is link, the proof is there, it’s not overwhelmingly one sided and the IHSA knows that.

IHSA Football Champions & Runners-Up

So what you're saying is that the private schools underachieve? Agreed.

 

[ClownBaby]

If the Private Schools were winning most classes year after year then it may be an issue but that’s just not the case here in IL…numerous public schools win every year in all different classes. 8A has been dominanted by public schools and 7A has had more then its share the past years with Wheaton North, Batavia, Glenbard West and ESL winning 7A. It only really seems to be an issue when they lose….People focus on MC, LA, JCA, and others and forget about the dominance of LWE, Maine South, Batavia, Glenbard West, WWS, Naperville Central Lockport and others. Even Stevenson dominated 8A not long ago…here is link, the proof is there, it’s not overwhelmingly one sided and the IHSA knows that.

IHSA Football Champions & Runners-Up

The issue is more to do with the small schools big public school have the resources to compete but it’s really tough for small schools to compete.

 

[McCaravan]

So what you're saying is that the private schools underachieve? Agreed.

What I’m saying is public schools have won numerous state titles and have done outstanding in the State Playoffs for the last 5 decades so it isn’t one sided. People that have issues with this only seem to complain when they lose to private schools. When they beat them or their team team wins state, as they have numerous times, it’s all fine and dandy. I like when there is a great public vs private powerhouse matchup, I think it’s great for IL HS Football and I would hate to see it end.

 

[pjjp]

The issue is more to do with the small schools big public school have the resources to compete but it’s really tough for small schools to compete.

Agreed. Plus, the IHSA did not help matters during the Covid cancellation year. I have no idea why they still used a two-year block to assign the multiplier, when one of the two years had no state competition. That pushed a number of private schools down a class that really should not have been down where they were.

 

[McCaravan]

The issue is more to do with the small schools big public school have the resources to compete but it’s really tough for small schools to compete.

Same could be said about privates. Yes many have had excellent success and many have not, and many have closed or shut the program down completely. Even the bigger school have not won the State Championships…St. Rita won in 2006, before that it was 1978…BR last title was 1981. Marist has never won State….they’ve been very competitive but the goal is to win State.

 

[FCHS2019]

I live in Tennessee & don't know what the hell you're talking about.Maryville,Alcoa,Knox West,Powell among other public schools recruit players better than any private school can.And I'm tired of hearing the public schools say oh we could have beat the private champions.Private schools aren't perfect but at least God is allowed in them & the piss poor shape of many of the public schools sends many to the privates.

You are nuts if you think those schools are recruiting better than Lipscomb, MBA, Ensworth... just full stop

 

[sporthog9er]

Going back to article...it's likely the committee is just eyewash...just to say they are discussing things. But if it continually leads to bylaw proposals, keep eyes on who is submitting what.

 

[McCaravan]

For those who may not agree, since 2000, 22 seasons, Private schools won four 8A titles and seven 7A titles. Meaning Public schools won 18 8A titles and 15 7A titles. It’s not one sided in the IHSA by any means.

 

[chiliconcarne]

For those who may not agree, since 2000, 22 seasons, Private schools won four 8A titles and seven 7A titles. Meaning Public schools won 18 8A titles and 15 7A titles. It’s not one sided in the IHSA by any means.

What percentage of each class was private?

 

[RoaminCatholic]

Private schools here realize they have a recruiting edge and just go with it Looking back, it makes the Illinois private schools look weak wanting to beat up on schools they have an edge over..

You play who you schedule based on the rules given to us by the same type of "committee."

I don't think private schools, at least not the few I've been associated with or know about, go into any season saying "Thank gosh we get to fill our postseason brackets with public schools..." The fact that many, and I mean MANY, think this way is also an issue. But it's always been easier to blame the the few that are dominant while lumping the whole list of private schools in the same boat. Alton Marquette isn't on the same level as Providence, just one example. No where close. Laughable to even put them in the same sentence, really.

My thing is that everyone across the board groans about the playoffs as they are... excluding the private schools and creating, potentially, more classes and chaos just seems like a quick band-aid. Because, imo, it's more unfair to the small private schools having to play SHG, Prov, JCA, Montini, etc (and literally having no chance ever) than it is multiplying and forcing privates to play up in classes against like-sized or larger pubs.

 

[RoaminCatholic]

We have to work on your definition of dominance.

Or maybe we work on yours? I mean it's one example, and really the only... but the fact that Rochester exists and is as dominant as they have been for more than a decade now, proves that public schools can make it happen. And don't think for a second it wasn't with the help of geographical location and a few (cough) transfers (cough). I can only think of one private school that ever went on a run of "dominance" like Rochester. And the school doesn't even exist any more. Nor, mind you, was it's success even close to that of Rochester. What's even more puzzling... is Rochester sits in SHG's backyard... Up north that may be the norm... it's a "never gonna happen again in anyone's lifetime" type phenomenon for downstate to have two dominant programs less than 20 miles from each other.

My point is, dominance to you may be based on trophies... but there's plenty of dominant powerhouse public programs in this state. If you aren't willing to admit that, so be it. But that doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

[RoaminCatholic]

For those who may not agree, since 2000, 22 seasons, Private schools won four 8A titles and seven 7A titles. Meaning Public schools won 18 8A titles and 15 7A titles. It’s not one sided in the IHSA by any means.

It's the same in all classes... Aside from Driscoll's dominance in the early 00s no private has just rambled off an insane amount of titles in any class. But again... a tiny town with school property covering most of it's acreage and surrounded by corn and the capital has taken home double digit titles in 15 years or less in more than one class... make it make sense.

 

[ClownBaby]

It's the same in all classes... Aside from Driscoll's dominance in the early 00s no private has just rambled off an insane amount of titles in any class. But again... a tiny town with school property covering most of it's acreage and surrounded by corn and the capital has taken home double digit titles in 15 years or less in more than one class... make it make sense.

IC has won 4 of the last 6 and will most likely make 5 of 7 this year.

 

[RoaminCatholic]

IC has won 4 of the last 6 and will most likely make 5 of 7 this year.

Fair point.. but I believe that was in multiple classes. Not that it matters. And, for what it's worth, I believe they'll be playing 4A this year? So I wouldn't give them the title just yet.

How many championship game appearances do Lena-Winslow and Forreston have in the small classes the past 6 years? I'm positive Lena-Winslow has won 4 of the last 6 championships contested in 1A (excluding COVID year)... granted they aren't having to beat many private schools. But that's still "dominance."

Edit: Lena-Winslow has won 5 titles since 2013.
Edit: Make it 6 since 2010. They're winning 1A titles at the same clip private schools are across all classes... about half.

 

[Cross Bones]

Or maybe we work on yours? I mean it's one example, and really the only... but the fact that Rochester exists and is as dominant as they have been for more than a decade now, proves that public schools can make it happen. And don't think for a second it wasn't with the help of geographical location and a few (cough) transfers (cough). I can only think of one private school that ever went on a run of "dominance" like Rochester. And the school doesn't even exist any more. Nor, mind you, was it's success even close to that of Rochester. What's even more puzzling... is Rochester sits in SHG's backyard... Up north that may be the norm... it's a "never gonna happen again in anyone's lifetime" type phenomenon for downstate to have two dominant programs less than 20 miles from each other.

My point is, dominance to you may be based on trophies... but there's plenty of dominant powerhouse public programs in this state. If you aren't willing to admit that, so be it. But that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Please can you tell me the period Stevenson dominated 8A? Or Lockport? Or Naperville Central? Or Glenbard West? These are the schools he said dominated.

 

[Cross Bones]

You play who you schedule based on the rules given to us by the same type of "committee."

I don't think private schools, at least not the few I've been associated with or know about, go into any season saying "Thank gosh we get to fill our postseason brackets with public schools..." The fact that many, and I mean MANY, think this way is also an issue. But it's always been easier to blame the the few that are dominant while lumping the whole list of private schools in the same boat. Alton Marquette isn't on the same level as Providence, just one example. No where close. Laughable to even put them in the same sentence, really.

My thing is that everyone across the board groans about the playoffs as they are... excluding the private schools and creating, potentially, more classes and chaos just seems like a quick band-aid. Because, imo, it's more unfair to the small private schools having to play SHG, Prov, JCA, Montini, etc (and literally having no chance ever) than it is multiplying and forcing privates to play up in classes against like-sized or larger pubs.

What's unfair about small privates playing SHG, PC, or JCA? Aren't they small privates too?

 

[McCaravan]

I used the word dominance to describe some team’s performance in that 22 year span and while I may have used it improperly, all the schools I mentioned won at least 1, and most of them more then 1, State Title in that era and have had many exceptional seasons in the last 2 plus decades. But I think it’s safe to say Public Schools winning 18 of 22 State Titles in 8A and 15 of 22 in 7A in that era is dominant.

And by all means I’m not taking away from these Public Schools accomplishments, my issue is for those who think we should split the public and the privates because the Private schools hold an advantage, when it comes to winning the larger classes they don’t. Should we split for Baseball and Basketball too where the public schools have a clear advantage in winning titles? I like it as is, my opinion anyways.

 

[eagles2k3]

I used the word dominance to describe some team’s performance in that 22 year span and while I may have used it improperly, all the schools I mentioned won at least 1, and most of them more then 1, State Title in that era and have had many exceptional seasons in the last 2 plus decades. But I think it’s safe to say Public Schools winning 18 of 22 State Titles in 8A and 15 of 22 in 7A in that era is dominant.

And by all means I’m not taking away from these Public Schools accomplishments, my issue is for those who think we should split the public and the privates because the Private schools hold an advantage, when it comes to winning the larger classes they don’t. Should we split for Baseball and Basketball too where the public schools have a clear advantage in winning titles? I like it as is, my opinion anyways.

Basketball- “non-boundaried” public schools are usually at a clear advantage… ie Simeon, MoPo, a few others. This is the one sport along with boys soccer that really doesn’t have too much of a competitive advantage based on private school or socioeconomic status.

Baseball- 3 of 4 classes this year were won by private schools.

Biggest disparity between private/public is in girls volleyball. 7 of 8 finalists in the 4 classes this year were private schools. The only public school was genoa Kingston in 2a.

I think in most sports it’s usually dominated by wealthier schools. I’m not digging anymore sport by sport but for the most part it’s wealthy publics and privates that appear to be at a competitive advantage. Not taking anything away, I know how hard they work, but there is an advantage.

 

[McCaravan]

Basketball- “non-boundaried” public schools are usually at a clear advantage… ie Simeon, MoPo, a few others. This is the one sport along with boys soccer that really doesn’t have too much of a competitive advantage based on private school or socioeconomic status.

Baseball- 3 of 4 classes this year were won by private schools.

Biggest disparity between private/public is in girls volleyball. 7 of 8 finalists in the 4 classes this year were private schools. The only public school was genoa Kingston in 2a.

I think in most sports it’s usually dominated by wealthier schools. I’m not digging anymore sport by sport but for the most part it’s wealthy publics and privates that appear to be at a competitive advantage. Not taking anything away, I know how hard they work, but there is an advantage.

Your correct about baseball this year I haven’t had a chance to look at the past couple decades but I’m willing to bet Public schools have that comfortable advantage on the whole. I maybe wrong, I know Providence has won 4 but on a whole I’m guessing Public by a comfortable margin.

 

[USD24]

Your correct about baseball this year I haven’t had a chance to look at the past couple decades but I’m willing to bet Public schools have that comfortable advantage on the whole. I maybe wrong, I know Providence has won 4 but on a whole I’m guessing Public by a comfortable margin.

Since 2000, the largest class has been dominated by public schools. NND won the AA title in 2004, MC won 4A in 2013 and PC won 3 straight titles in 14-16. No other private school has won a state title in the largest class in that time span. When the IHSA switched to 4 classes 15 years ago, the privates fared better in 1A and 3A, winning 7 of the 15 titles in those classes. Privates have won only 3 of the 15 2A titles, with two of those being JCA in the last two years.

 

[RoaminCatholic]

What's unfair about small privates playing SHG, PC, or JCA? Aren't they small privates too?

Is this a serious question?

The difference between the example I gave is astronomical. Marquette vs. Providence in anything, sports, academics, funding, boosters, population, geographical location, coaching staffs... we could keep going.

Imagine putting Jacksonville Routt on the same field as JCA... That's worse than putting a CPL program on the same field as JCA... it's going to be ugly... every single time. That's like Galena making the playoffs and their reward is a trip to Loyola... 🤣 Literally no one wants to see that...

I've long said the idea of "separating" privates and publics isn't that simple. The small private schools downstate are never going to agree to play in the same class as the CCL programs. You're going to have to split up the private schools as well.

 

[ClownBaby]

Since 2000, the largest class has been dominated by public schools. NND won the AA title in 2004, MC won 4A in 2013 and PC won 3 straight titles in 14-16. No other private school has won a state title in the largest class in that time span. When the IHSA switched to 4 classes 15 years ago, the privates fared better in 1A and 3A, winning 7 of the 15 titles in those classes. Privates have won only 3 of the 15 2A titles, with two of those being JCA in the last two years.

The largest class in baseball is dominated by private school since going to 4 classes. Private schools have have won 14/60 trophy's (23.3%) despite making up less then 4% of the total teams. They accounted for 10/30 title game participants winning 4 titles and 6 runner up trophy's with an additional 4 trophy's from the 3rd place game. I don't have a problem with it but they are winning at way higher clip then their total participation says they should.

 

[Cross Bones]

Is this a serious question?

The difference between the example I gave is astronomical. Marquette vs. Providence in anything, sports, academics, funding, boosters, population, geographical location, coaching staffs... we could keep going.

Imagine putting Jacksonville Routt on the same field as JCA... That's worse than putting a CPL program on the same field as JCA... it's going to be ugly... every single time. That's like Galena making the playoffs and their reward is a trip to Loyola... 🤣 Literally no one wants to see that...

I've long said the idea of "separating" privates and publics isn't that simple. The small private schools downstate are never going to agree to play in the same class as the CCL programs. You're going to have to split up the private schools as well.

I'm asking why small private schools like Decatur St. Theresa couldn't play Immaculate Conception. What would be stopping them? Or why Bellville Althoff can't play Montini? Or maybe Marquette would have to play Providence. Depends on how you slice it. I thought two private classes would work, so maybe JCA/PC make the small class. There would only be a few hundred student difference. That's no different from how it is now ie Lockport has 3800 students and Naperville C has 2600.

I said it not too long ago I think the best bet for keeping the schools together is for certain schools to really consider and use that request up option. Yeah that means less championships, but it means more brackets that should be competitive.

 

[McCaravan]

The largest class in baseball is dominated by private school since going to 4 classes. Private schools have have won 14/60 trophy's (23.3%) despite making up less then 4% of the total teams. They accounted for 10/30 title game participants winning 4 titles and 6 runner up trophy's with an additional 4 trophy's from the 3rd place game. I don't have a problem with it but they are winning at way higher clip then their total participation says they should.

Let’s throw out runner up trophies and certainly the 3rd place one, if we add runner up trophies in football then it’s even more swaying towards favoring Public’s. Let’s agree though that both have had their success in each sport and I firmly believe splitting them up would ruin IHSA sports. Maybe not ruin but it just wouldn’t be the same and not in a good way

 

[RaiderAlum50]

It's the same in all classes... Aside from Driscoll's dominance in the early 00s no private has just rambled off an insane amount of titles in any class. But again... a tiny town with school property covering most of it's acreage and surrounded by corn and the capital has taken home double digit titles in 15 years or less in more than one class... make it make sense.

Providence in the 90s, JCA in 2000s. They rattled off both 5+

 

[Quags57]

Basketball- “non-boundaried” public schools are usually at a clear advantage… ie Simeon, MoPo, a few others. This is the one sport along with boys soccer that really doesn’t have too much of a competitive advantage based on private school or socioeconomic status.

Baseball- 3 of 4 classes this year were won by private schools.

Biggest disparity between private/public is in girls volleyball. 7 of 8 finalists in the 4 classes this year were private schools. The only public school was genoa Kingston in 2a.

I think in most sports it’s usually dominated by wealthier schools. I’m not digging anymore sport by sport but for the most part it’s wealthy publics and privates that appear to be at a competitive advantage. Not taking anything away, I know how hard they work, but there is an advantage.

in 2021, all four baseball titles were won by Public schools. Plainfield South, Springfield, Freeburg and Farina South Central all won titles.

I wouldn't conside any of these schools in the wealthy catagory. Also, only two private schools made it to the finals that year.

 

[FBFever7]

You are nuts if you think those schools are recruiting better than Lipscomb, MBA, Ensworth... just full stop

Those schools can't compete with Alcoa or Maryville recruiting or otherwise.And also for the people on the board not familiar with Tennessee Football the top 4 teams in each region make the playoffs.So without private schools some regions have 4 or 5 teams.So you can go 2-8,3-7 even 1-9 or 0-10 & get in!!!!!

 

[missingwalter]

I

in 2021, all four baseball titles were won by Public schools. Plainfield South, Springfield, Freeburg and Farina South Central all won titles.

I wouldn't conside any of these schools in the wealthy catagory. Also, only two private schools made it to the finals that year.

It was Plainfield East.

 

[Bobby Boucher 9]

Random Factoids

Playoff Eligible Non Boundary schools schools is around 13% of All Playoff Eligible Schools.

Since the 8 Class system (21 Years) they have won 36% of All State Championships.

Were Runner up or State Champion 47% of State Title Games

18 Times there was a Non Boundary vs Non Boundary title game 10%

In the 6 Man Class era 1980-2001 (21 Years) Non Boundary also won 36% of State Championships

Again were runner up or State Champions 47% of State Title Games

11 Times there was a Non Boundary vs Non Boundary title game 9%

Last but not least in the short 5 man class era 1974-1979

Non Boundary won 30% of all State Title Games.

Were Runner up or State Champion 40% of State Title Games

1 Non Boundary vs Non Boundary title game.

The Data is atleast pretty consistant for almost 50 years of football

 

[Bobby Boucher 9]

More Factoids

2009, 2016 and 2017 Non Boundary Schools only won 1 State Title

2022 Non Boundary Schools won 6 State Titles

Those are the Highs and lows.

6 Class Era

1987 Non Boundary won 5 State Titles (High)

1992 Non Boundary won 0 State Titles (Low)