Since every other Covid riddled state is playing right now, how is it only insurance in Illinois is bad for basketball? Don't insuracne companies cross state lines?
Insurance Question
- Thread starter mc140
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I was just going to post this question. There has got to be one superintendent, one board member, AD, principal somewhere in the state that realizes all the other states that are playing, right? Someone surely is investigating how this is working across the country with this magical "liability" and "insurance"? We have the most unique and special state board of education, health department, and insurance issues in the country?
Insurance companies sent out a letter to school districts in July telling them that they would not cover them for Covid19 related lawsuits. I know this because I sent a FOIA to my local district because school board members kept claiming they would be held personally liable for Covid suits if they allowed kids back in school. Totally bogus claim. In the same letter, the insurance company notified the district that it was protected under the Tort Immunity Act meaning that if the school followed guidelines established by entities like the CDC, IDPH, etc. as best they could, a plaintiff would have a difficult if not impossible task of holding them liable for Covid19 suits. Not to mention how in the world a plaintiff would be able to prove they contracted it while in school. This is a smokescreen being used by politicians to further their agenda, plain and simple. Ask yourself this, how is it that almost every state in the nation is allowing high school football to be played knowing that their insurer is likely not covering any Covid 19 related claims. To answer your question, yes, insurers cross state lines. The biggest companies insure schools in states all over the country and I guarantee you they have sent similar letters to school districts all over the country saying they will not cover Covid19 claims. Now some of these other states may have laws in place that don't allow people to sue schools, governments, etc. for Covid19. Illinois does not have that law yet, but it does have a very powerful Tort Immunity Act which makes it difficult if not impossible for plaintiffs to get to them if they follow the guidelines. And what school district is not going to do that.
So by making basketball high risk, schools would lose Tort Immunity?
Has to be south of i80. I haven’t spoken to any school admin in the Chicago area who think it should be happening based on liability and the inability to contact trace appropriately in case of spreads. You have to remember not every kid is an athlete, most people just want their kids in school. If you have large events you won’t be able to keep the schools open because of spreads.
I know but that is the issue...you can't prove the spreads because it's all guessing. You cant prove where someone got a virus. So what are they afraid of?
I hate to give you a lawyer answer, but it depends. Just because the governor says it is a high risk sport, doesn't make it so. I would argue that if a school followed CDC guidelines as well as put into practice what other states' schools are doing to facilitate the playing of basketball and football, the school would have an argument that it is covered by the Tort Immunity Act. Remember, nothing stops anyone from filing a lawsuit against someone else. And it costs money to defend lawsuits. That being said, if the plaintiff's suit is frivolous and without merit, they are usually on the hook for attorney's fees from the other party. I guess in the end it depends on how badly the schools want to play basketball or football when it comes time. If they want it bad enough, they will take all the precautions that are recommended and be fully prepared to defend against any litigation that may follow. Again, I go back to another point that has been made and that is you have to prove you contracted the virus from playing the sport. Tough to do. I'll take it a step further. Just because you get sick doesn't mean you collect damages. If I get the virus playing football and I have mild symptoms, what are my monetary damages? If you get the virus playing football or basketball and end up in the hospital or dying from it, there is where you can incur damages. Again though, a participant assumes the risk by playing. It's complicated and you can go down a number of rabbit holes. In the end, it's up to the schools to decide how badly they want their students playing these sports. Where there is a will, there is a way. A lot of other states have shown that already by playing fall football. I hope some of these Illinois schools show the others a way and play hoops or football when it comes time because I think the governor will not want football going on in the spring either.
Legal question- does the liability issue differ because of the sport issue vs school? What is the difference if a kid/family gets sick from a sport vs school? Since many schools do have some in person activity going on, wouldn't the liability issue be the same if a kid or someone wanted to sue from attending class? Or does that suddenly change if it is because a sport is played that a government official "says" shouldn't be played? Does any of that make sense?
It does make sense. I believe the liability issue would be the same. In a lawsuit of this nature, a plaintiff has to prove typically three things. First, I contracted Covid19 at the school or during the school activity. Second and this kind of goes with the first issue. I contracted Covid19 at the school or during the school activity due to the willful and wanton disregard of accepted guidelines regarding the prevention of Covid19 (guidelines established by CDC, etc.). Third, I have monetary damages due to contracting Covid19 during school or at the school activity. For example, I was in the hospital for a month and I have medical bills that need to be paid. I died and my estate is suing for the loss of future income, etc. I lost some function in my body on a permanent or semi-permanent basis and this cost me some opportunity, etc. The school will defend itself by saying we followed the guidelines established by CDC, IDPH, etc. for school or for sports (whatever guidelines exist for safely playing basketball or football during this pandemic) I'm sure there are some out there because a lot of other states are successfully carrying out football seasons and getting ready for basketball. Just because a government official says the games should not be played, doesn't mean they can't be played safely. Again, look at what schools are doing in other states to play these sports safely. My argument would be, OK, my school will do the same thing that is being done in X number of other states to play these sports safely. And if you do that, I don't believe you are acting in a willful or wanton matter that causes you to lose Tort Immunity. Again, if the schools really want their students to play these sports, it can be done. It's being done. Adopt the practices that are in place in other states and get going.
Events? The guidelines by the IHSA for basketball are basically allowing no or very few fans. 50 people or less well if you have 12-15 players on each team, 3-4 coaches on each team, plus 3 refs, plus 2-4 game workers. You're already at 45, not much left for fans. Its more likely they play without school being open. Admins I've talked to think in person school in those that already haven't gone back isn't likely, but sports is still possible. They were willing to give the green light for basketball when it was medium risk. JB thinks spring , but my guess is the IHSA summer season is when we see basketball which is normal person spring.. It works better for the basketball calendar. So hopefully we can get football going ahead of that.
Luke
curious because the NFHS which overseas all HS sports does not classify HS basketball as high risk. Could a school lean on that as justification to play?
JB went rogue and against what the national governing body said
I agree Corey! I talked to two separate doctors this week, mine and my wife's and both said Covid cases are going up dramatically. Both said that so far this wave is worse than it was in March of this year. One doctor said if possible we should stay home and limit any outside activity unless absolutely necessary for the next couple of months. Stay safe!
I believe they could. A school would certainly use guidelines established by organizations like CDC, etc. They also can lean on the best practices being used and/or suggested by NFHS and the schools that are playing basketball and football now or basketball in the near future. Remember, there is a track record that has been established this fall across the country by high schools playing sports that our governor has classified as high risk. He is not the CDC nor is he the NFHS nor a doctor or an immunologist or communicable disease specialist. The schools in Illinois are not covered by liability insurance at this point anyway. Their carriers, many of whom are national, have made that known to them earlier this year. If they put the best practices in place, they should be fine. They are already doing that to get kids back in the building to teach them in person. All the districts need is some courage to extend it to the court or the football field.
Wait a minute Gene. I thought, early on, some people gave us the impression the vaccine cures everything. I was here a week ago or so and said Rush in Aurora and Sliver Cross in New Lenox had seen a dramatic increase in patients. Now, they are very near capacity. This wasn't the CEO at Rush who told me this. It was from some of the people who are actually on the floor daily and see this personally. They also told me this would be worse than March. I guess we'll see.
You heard what I heard from people who are at the hospitals and seeing patients. I trust these local medical professionals a hell of a lot more than the so called "experts" at the CDC, WHO, etc., who have confused a lot of us about what to do to avoid Covid. The media hasn't helped either!
I spoke with a nurse while I was at Rush/Copley in Aurora on Friday. She had a very worried look on her face. She told me that the hospital earlier in the week had 51 Covid patients and the number was growing. She added that the number of patients in Naperville was even higher at 71.
Yes, I know the CEO, but I know 100's of people that work there. I've worked there, my mother was the longest employed employee in their history. As far capacity goes, hospitals like to be near capacity, it makes them money. When they are only accepting COVID cases again, let me know.
I love all the anecdotal accounts but when you actually look at the hospitalization numbers numbers on a macro level there has been been an uptick but there are plenty of beds and that is really what matters not active cases. Also there are moth balled hospitals in Elgin and in the South Burbs that were updated in spring and never used.
Yes good example is region 7 on DPH website. Cases skyrocketing, but med surg availability and ICU bed availability has actually increased in the past 4 weeks. Was hovering around 21% now are at 25% and 26%...what does that tell you?
I have heard they have scaled back elective surgeries. I never said they were accepting only Covid cases. Of course hospitals like to be near capacity. So do hotels. But, we'll see what the future holds. I am certainly not hoping it's bad, if that's what you think.
I don't think that, but I watch what people do. Like I said, I know hundreds of people that work there and I watch what they allow their kids to do and what they do.
Not Illinois, but a friend of mine in Iowa just shared this.
www.kcci.com
Surge in COVID-19 cases puts Des Moines hospitals at capacity
UnityPoint Health Des Moines confirmed to KCCI Monday that all of its hospitals are at capacity for the first time since the COVID-19 pandemic began.
www.kcci.com
I also know nurses who work there and last night I heard things are getting chaotic.
The comment you made about hospitals wanting to be near capacity to make more money is pure CEO talk. No wonder some of these CEOs have such bad reputations. They really don't give a damn about people's health. It's all money to them.
It's not pure CEO talk, it's knowledge from working at a hospital and being around one my whole life. That being said, I did get text from another administrator this morning that the numbers are high, people aren't nearly as sick, but they are high and alarming. In regards to the CEO, the guy worked his way up from the dietary and is now is CEO, I'm pretty sure he knows all facets of the hospital. He's also quite beloved by the staff.
We can go back and forth on this and get nowhere. Maybe it isn't as bad as I say. But I don't think it's a rosy as you say either. The truth, most likely, lies somewhere in the middle.
That said, my point is, I see no way Governor Fat Guy goes along with spring sports when he said no to fall sports when numbers for Covid weren't this bad. However, maybe he does in January when there is a change in administration in Washington.
I just admitted it isn't rosy any longer. That being said, right now is why I was fighting so hard for them to change course in the Fall. Quite frankly, I'm ready for son to commit, have all this behind me and begin working on leaving Illinois behind.
Yesterday Illinois’ hospitalizations as a % of active cases was 3.3%. (4,409/133,898). On July 1 hospitalizations were 13% of active cases (1,511/11,652). Clearly reflects wide-spread asymptomatic testing. People just don't like to dig into the data and realize what is happening. Headlines scare everyone.
Good luck to your son, for sure. It is unfortunate that we sometimes lose focus on the kids. This is hard on everyone.
I tend to agree with you about the headlines, but I can also look at the data you provided and see there are 3x as many people hospitalized as there were July 1st.
Yes and for those that would like some insight on why hospitalizations are increasing nationwide but deaths remaining flat or decreasing vs case numbers....look into remdesivir...and what is required for hospital length stay if given per the drug and insurance...you may find your answer.
Babe Ruth hit homeruns more often than Henry Aaron. Aaron needed 3,000 more at bats. Aaron ended up with 755 and Ruth had 714. Who would you say the homerun king is Ruth or Aaron? Sure fewer people are dying as a percentage. But they are still dying. I am just afraid this is going to go for longer than people think. Perhaps all winter. I sincerely hope I am wrong.
Since the start of the new “Surge” in October, the Illinois COVID deaths per capita by state has moved up from no. 11 to 9. In that same time period, Wisconsin, who now has a “Positivity rate” of 30%, has dropped in the state deaths per capita rankings from 41 to 43. Go figure
That's interesting. Have they had a little more "freedom" than us? Sounds like they are a healthier state than Illinois.
