High School Transfers

[LHSTigers94]

New policy= Approve all transfers regardless of sport, but don't allow postseason participation year one. That'll freeze up some movement, in hoops 30 game showcase to colleges, 9 games for football , and so on. Regular season is longer than the postseason so plenty of game film

So punish legit transfers because some don’t know how to win? Isn’t the coach that is looking to for a way to lower the competitive level to win just as bad as the coach who would win at all cost.

Every state championship coach knows that a transfer isn’t the answer to winning a championship. That kid has to fit in which way more complicated than most think! Team culture is huge and one bad apple can ruin the bunch.

 

[ClownBaby]

So punish legit transfers because some don’t know how to win? Isn’t the coach that is looking to for a way to lower the competitive level to win just as bad as the coach who would win at all cost.

Every state championship coach knows that a transfer isn’t the answer to winning a championship. That kid has to fit in which way more complicated than most think! Team culture is huge and one bad apple can ruin the bunch.

How many times does the most talented team not win it all? 100% agree with you there is more to winning then just getting a stud transfer.

 

[McCaravan]

Lot of really good points made here on both sides. I have two main issues with transfers. Maybe because with my profession as a Detective I hear nothing but lies and scams everyday, and when I hear a story that stinks, I cry foul....think Jussie Smollett. So when I hear people leaving for financial reasons after being at a school for three years or simply leaving because Dad got a new job and you ironically ended up in a school district with a top program or your're good buddy I'm sorry I don't believe it, and I apologize to the 20% that actually leave their schools for legit reasons, the other 80% screwed it up for you. So for that reasons I wouldn't mind if they just made transfers good to go with no penalty so people could finally just say I left because I didn't like the school, coach, playing time, students, food, what ever it may be instead of cooking up stories of family hardships.

Second reason I don't like it, and this is just my personal opinion, is I do feel for the player that had been with the program, and in private schools situations, had parents pay 30,000 dollars for 3 years, to see their chance to play taken away by a player who came in for their final year. I posted this before, I've heard the "tough" and "that's life" comments but I've known kids that this has happened to and it sucks. I don't blame the schools for playing these transfers, they have a job to do, I get it.

Question though, kids going Public to Public...how are they pulling this off? Claiming move?

 

[Kevin JCHS 81]

New policy= Approve all transfers regardless of sport, but don't allow postseason participation year one. That'll freeze up some movement, in hoops 30 game showcase to colleges, 9 games for football , and so on. Regular season is longer than the postseason so plenty of game film

But then Joe-Bob Academy and Billy-Bob high School then claim that team only made the playoffs because they had a player(s) who were not even eligible for the post season, thus opening a huge new can of worms.

 

[Cross Bones]

LMAO, Classic reply.

Bones, I am becoming mildly concerned about my off-season state of mind after agreeing / liking several of your recent posts.

Play the lotto.

Lot of really good points made here on both sides. I have two main issues with transfers. Maybe because with my profession as a Detective I hear nothing but lies and scams everyday, and when I hear a story that stinks, I cry foul....think Jussie Smollett. So when I hear people leaving for financial reasons after being at a school for three years or simply leaving because Dad got a new job and you ironically ended up in a school district with a top program or your're good buddy I'm sorry I don't believe it, and I apologize to the 20% that actually leave their schools for legit reasons, the other 80% screwed it up for you. So for that reasons I wouldn't mind if they just made transfers good to go with no penalty so people could finally just say I left because I didn't like the school, coach, playing time, students, food, what ever it may be instead of cooking up stories of family hardships.

Second reason I don't like it, and this is just my personal opinion, is I do feel for the player that had been with the program, and in private schools situations, had parents pay 30,000 dollars for 3 years, to see their chance to play taken away by a player who came in for their final year. I posted this before, I've heard the "tough" and "that's life" comments but I've known kids that this has happened to and it sucks. I don't blame the schools for playing these transfers, they have a job to do, I get it.

Question though, kids going Public to Public...how are they pulling this off? Claiming move?

None of my business why a kid changes schools, so yes, no punishment for transferring. Nothing wrong with enforcing residency, but other than that...

Bones your smarter than that. You may of been the opposite of what’s happening. A lot of these kids transferring isn’t about their parents job or a financial situation. This is working the system to improve the exposure of the athletes. The parents are behind this and are the drivers. Sure some HS coaches maybe stoking the fire but it doesn’t happen if the parents are not on board.
If your okay with kids jumping year after year from one school to another then so be it. I don’t think it shows good values, but that’s my opinion.

I guess it doesn't matter to me. I don't see a reason to punish a kid for switching schools for any reason. Again, what is the purpose of holding a kid out of a game?

When do we start tracking transfers? What about families that move their child in the 7th grade to a district with a strong HS program? Why isn't that cheating the system? 5th grade? What if a family moves a kid due to academics? Why is transferring different than going to MC or Loyola for FB purposes? Trying to determine people's purposes for going to a specific school is an exercise in futility. We're better off trying to classify the schools better.

 

[MWittman]

When do we start tracking transfers? What about families that move their child in the 7th grade to a district with a strong HS program? Why isn't that cheating the system?

Bones:

This issue has been debated over and over with virtually no resolution for two decades. Over the past few years alone, the matter has been thoroughly litigated here, has inspired some rather colorful conversation, and seen some reckless charges leveled against schools and the IHSA.

I have been a fierce critic of transfers in the past, regardless of which system the student originates or the destination. Most of my fury rests with what I consider to be a parent manipulating the system by narrowly interpreting IHSA rules to fit their decision or outright fabricating circumstances which would accommodate the desire to change.

I do, however, tend to agree with you, Bones, over your contention the partition observed by families is suspect prior to entering high school. While I have no affection with for the IHSA and do not want their marauding arms extending any further into high school athletics or diving into middle or junior high schools, I believe the brainiacs in Bloomington should consider eliminating transfer rules. At the moment, enforcement only draws rebuke or inspires laughter.

As a parent of four children, three of whom graduated LA, I believe a considerable number of parents make the decision to enroll their children and remain committed to a school for academic purposes first and foremost. While I have never been convinced of the practicality of boundaries for the public schooling, I also believe if the IHSA abandon regulations over transfers altogether, the same number of students seeking to transfer would consider the option under a system which did not govern transfers as do now.

 

[greatgig13]

Not that I was college material but there would be no way my dad would pick up stakes so I could transfer to another school to play football. He’d say son, take it or leave it. I have friends that switch their kid’s summer baseball team every season just to get better looks. Either the kids have talent or they don’t and someone will see them. Kids have to make their own opportunities and some parents thinking they’re doing right thing are going to saddle them when they grow up and join the real world.

 

[ClownBaby]

Not that I was college material but there would be no way my dad would pick up stakes so I could transfer to another school to play football. He’d say son, take it or leave it. I have friends that switch their kid’s summer baseball team every season just to get better looks. Either the kids have talent or they don’t and someone will see them. Kids have to make their own opportunities and some parents thinking they’re doing right thing are going to saddle them when they grow up and join the real world.

It’s funny I think sites like Edgytim/ Rivals have given rise to the transfer problem since players want to increase their ranking or want to play with Johnny Four Star since they think he can get them a scholarship. In reality with Rivals and all these other recruiting services out there it has never been easier to get spotted so why transfer since if you have talent someone will find you.

 

[Truth is Out There]

So punish legit transfers because some don’t know how to win? Isn’t the coach that is looking to for a way to lower the competitive level to win just as bad as the coach who would win at all cost.

Every state championship coach knows that a transfer isn’t the answer to winning a championship. That kid has to fit in which way more complicated than most think! Team culture is huge and one bad apple can ruin the bunch.

Here's another aspect. I had a conversation with the leader of a school who also sits on the committee that reviews eligibility.

I posed the question about kids who legitimately have extenuating circumstances for their transfer.

His response?

I have personally reviewed over 500 cases of extenuating circumstances and approved exactly ZERO of them.

I didn't fact check him but he had no reason to lie to me.

Loopholes are the way to go it seems. Otherwise, it gets shot down no matter how worthy the cause or extenuating circumstances involved.

 

[Kevin JCHS 81]

I think everybody can agree that many transfers are wrong, like little Johnny transferring to a better football school because his parents think he might be the next Barry Sanders. How willing are you to penalize the hundreds of kids that have legit family/personal reasons for transferring?

As Bones pointed out, where do you draw the line and stop penalizing transfers? Should we also penalize little Johnny who transfers high schools to be on a better chess team, robotics team or math team (or) Little Mary-Sue for trying to get on a better Pom-Pom squad?

Having weak rules in place to prevent unnecessary transfers, but have loop holes is just about the only way to police this without penalizing a bunch of innocent victims.

 

[LHSTigers94]

I think everybody can agree that many transfers are wrong, like little Johnny transferring to a better football school because his parents think he might be the next Barry Sanders. How willing are you to penalize the hundreds of kids that have legit family/personal reasons for transferring?

As Bones pointed out, where do you draw the line and stop penalizing transfers? Should we also penalize little Johnny who transfers high schools to be on a better chess team, robotics team or math team (or) Little Mary-Sue for trying to get on a better Pom-Pom squad?

Having weak rules in place to prevent unnecessary transfers, but have loop holes is just about the only way to police this without penalizing a bunch of innocent victims.

I disagree. How is a transfer wrong? Who has the right to say what someone does with their child is wrong?

 

[Truth is Out There]

I disagree. How is a transfer wrong? Who has the right to say what someone does with their child is wrong?

It is very easy to take that approach. I mostly subscribe to it myself HOWEVER there are unscrupulous people and coaches who recruit kids into making bad decisions to transfer. Because they want to see the colors they root for win.

 

[Kevin JCHS 81]

I disagree. How is a transfer wrong? Who has the right to say what someone does with their child is wrong?

Somehow my post wasn't clear or didn't seem clear without info from my previous posts.

I am not against transfers (and) I am not in favor of penalizing a student for transferring schools.

I can see how many people think certain transfers for convenience (or) competitiveness may be wrong, but you cannot police that without penalizing people who transfer out of need.

 

[Cross Bones]

It is very easy to take that approach. I mostly subscribe to it myself HOWEVER there are unscrupulous people and coaches who recruit kids into making bad decisions to transfer. Because they want to see the colors they root for win.

A few years ago we got a transfer who was outstanding on our basketball team. Personally I wanted to see him as a DE for football because I think he would've been a monster, but he didn't play football. Turns out his #1 sport was baseball. I don't think I've ever heard our baseball program ever be mentioned, even in passing. Could've transferred to Lockport or Sandburg or some public with a noteworthy baseball team. Is this a wrong transfer?

What if I am a private school guy and out of 8th grade I decide to take my talents to Loyola. Is that really better than deciding out of 8th grade to go to Iggy, then transferring to Loyola after a couple years?

Is it wrong for me to start off living in the Bolingbrook High School part of Bolingbrook, but to then move to the DuPage corner and go to Downers South?

I'm just not seeing the issue as long as real addresses are being used. When it comes to private I don't see an issue at all with choosing a new school after all the initial one was a choice too.

 

[LHSTigers94]

It is very easy to take that approach. I mostly subscribe to it myself HOWEVER there are unscrupulous people and coaches who recruit kids into making bad decisions to transfer. Because they want to see the colors they root for win.

So much goes into a transfer that NO COACH can convince a parent or kid to go through ALL the steps needed. In most cases, the family has made that decision long before the actual transfer.

 

[LHSTigers94]

Somehow my post wasn't clear or didn't seem clear without info from my previous posts.

I am not against transfers (and) I am not in favor of penalizing a student for transferring schools.

I can see how many people think certain transfers for convenience (or) competitiveness may be wrong, but you cannot police that without penalizing people who transfer out of need.

Understood. You are correct, I didn't go back to your previous post therefore my question should not have been directed at you.


From others who believe it is wrong, I would like to know how.

 

[Golden Warrior]

appreciate the opinions here and i'll share mine. after a student-athlete enters high school their freshman year, ALL transfers should carry with it a 6 month period of ineligibility for all athletics and activities.

OR

open enrollment for all

 

[LHSTigers94]

A few years ago we got a transfer who was outstanding on our basketball team. Personally I wanted to see him as a DE for football because I think he would've been a monster, but he didn't play football. Turns out his #1 sport was baseball. I don't think I've ever heard our baseball program ever be mentioned, even in passing. Could've transferred to Lockport or Sandburg or some public with a noteworthy baseball team. Is this a wrong transfer?

What if I am a private school guy and out of 8th grade I decide to take my talents to Loyola. Is that really better than deciding out of 8th grade to go to Iggy, then transferring to Loyola after a couple years?

Is it wrong for me to start off living in the Bolingbrook High School part of Bolingbrook, but to then move to the DuPage corner and go to Downers South?

I'm just not seeing the issue as long as real addresses are being used. When it comes to private I don't see an issue at all with choosing a new school after all the initial one was a choice too.

Not to mention the money involved with Private school. People feel that a family should continue to pay thousands of dollars just so others wont feel that somehow it's cheating. I really don't think there should be any rules on a private to private transfer IF the family is paying money.

 

[LHSTigers94]

appreciate the opinions here and i'll share mine. after a student-athlete enters high school their freshman year, ALL transfers should carry with it a 6 month period of ineligibility for all athletics and activities.

OR

open enrollment for all

Why do you feel that way? What is the purpose of 6 months?

 

[McCaravan]

For those that are pro transfer without penalty do you feel the same way with the NCAA’s policy? That also used to be iron clad 1 year sit, but loop holes have now been found. Justin Fields situation last year was my favorite.

Claim: A racial slur was shouted at him during a game that effected him so much he just couldn’t continue at UGA.

Reality: Jake Fromm has another mandatory year of eligibility and he didn’t want to wait another year to see the field.

NCAA decision: Race Card was played, grant him immediate eligibility. Even though his sister will remain at UGA on a softball scholarship.

Here is an article on Tate Martells situation at OSU last year. Loop holes have been found folks and they will be used.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.si...nsfer-portal-waiver-eligible-miami-hurricanes

 

[Truth is Out There]

So much goes into a transfer that NO COACH can convince a parent or kid to go through ALL the steps needed. In most cases, the family has made that decision long before the actual transfer.

I do not disagree. However, in MANY cases, other parents and friends of the program assist these transfer efforts. Just makes it harder on the cases where it is for legitimate reasons.

But like I said earlier: 500 cases reviewed, zero extenuating circumstances approved.

Those who are doing it for the wrong reasons find the loopholes and use them.

Those that typically remain above board in their claims suffer the consequences.

 

[ckproud2000]

McCaravan - you know JACK about the kid's situation and his move (which yes was necessary, which the family opted to do (which is their right), which actually happened, he and his family (which used to live close to Rice now live once again close to Rice and that his first cousin plays for Rice too) and now he has to pay for his education instead of getting it paid for by the taxpayers. How you feel you can adjudicate the circumstances makes you look petty. MC has had 2 footballers transfer in to the Varsity for this upcoming season so please save the high horse.

Top- he is NOT first cousins with his teammate. From his own words he gave in an interview, he got to know him on the camp circuit.

 

[Cross Bones]

For those that are pro transfer without penalty do you feel the same way with the NCAA’s policy? That also used to be iron clad 1 year sit, but loop holes have now been found. Justin Fields situation last year was my favorite.

Claim: A racial slur was shouted at him during a game that effected him so much he just couldn’t continue at UGA.

Reality: Jake Fromm has another mandatory year of eligibility and he didn’t want to wait another year to see the field.

NCAA decision: Race Card was played, grant him immediate eligibility. Even though his sister will remain at UGA on a softball scholarship.

Here is an article on Tate Martells situation at OSU last year. Loop holes have been found folks and they will be used.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.si...nsfer-portal-waiver-eligible-miami-hurricanes

Yes, I feel the same way about the NCAA, and so do the schools. I'm not sure who is actually opposed to it other than some fans.

As for UGA, it's likely he heard some slurs in rural Georgia. But he shouldn't have to give a reason. Aren't the scholarships on a yearly basis? Someone correct me if I'm wrong. If there is a 5 yearcontract then I would say abide by the contract. Are schools willing to sign these students for 5 years? Are they willing to honor promises made in recruiting?

Somehow, somewhere deep in our culture we got so accustomed to controlling other humans that some of us think it's normal.

 

[McCaravan]

Yes, I feel the same way about the NCAA, and so do the schools. I'm not sure who is actually opposed to it other than some fans.

As for UGA, it's likely he heard some slurs in rural Georgia. But he shouldn't have to give a reason. Aren't the scholarships on a yearly basis? Someone correct me if I'm wrong. If there is a 5 yearcontract then I would say abide by the contract. Are schools willing to sign these students for 5 years? Are they willing to honor promises made in recruiting?

Somehow, somewhere deep in our culture we got so accustomed to controlling other humans that some of us think it's normal.

No he claims a UGA baseball player shouted something at him once from the stands.

 

[Cross Bones]

No he claims a UGA baseball player shouted something at him once from the stands.

That makes it even more believable for me. I quit baseball (after the season) after having to choke out a little league teammate in the dugout for the same thing in 8th grade. There was definitely a different culture in football and basketball compared to baseball, at least where I'm from. I imagine rural Georgia is that on steroids.

But again it shouldn't matter why. UGA doesn't own that man. Maybe for the term of that particular scholarship.

 

[Truth is Out There]

For those that are pro transfer without penalty do you feel the same way with the NCAA’s policy? That also used to be iron clad 1 year sit, but loop holes have now been found. Justin Fields situation last year was my favorite.

Claim: A racial slur was shouted at him during a game that effected him so much he just couldn’t continue at UGA.

Reality: Jake Fromm has another mandatory year of eligibility and he didn’t want to wait another year to see the field.

NCAA decision: Race Card was played, grant him immediate eligibility. Even though his sister will remain at UGA on a softball scholarship.

Here is an article on Tate Martells situation at OSU last year. Loop holes have been found folks and they will be used.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.si...nsfer-portal-waiver-eligible-miami-hurricanes

Hold my beer...

 

[Golden Warrior]

Why do you feel that way? What is the purpose of 6 months?

a 6-month period of ineligibility (which would begin at the start of the school year) would cut down a lot on transfers that are solely for athletics, especially in the higher profile sports of football and basketball. it would essentially mean the transfers have to sit out a full season (unless the sport in question is in the spring).

open enrollment speaks for itself.

 

[ClownBaby]

Yes, I feel the same way about the NCAA, and so do the schools. I'm not sure who is actually opposed to it other than some fans.

As for UGA, it's likely he heard some slurs in rural Georgia. But he shouldn't have to give a reason. Aren't the scholarships on a yearly basis? Someone correct me if I'm wrong. If there is a 5 yearcontract then I would say abide by the contract. Are schools willing to sign these students for 5 years? Are they willing to honor promises made in recruiting?

Somehow, somewhere deep in our culture we got so accustomed to controlling other humans that some of us think it's normal.

No one controls college athletes not the NCAA or the schools the kids are 100% in control but they elect to enter the system, If you want complete control don’t accept a scholarship be a regular student who pays their own way and have a great time.

 

[Cross Bones]

No one controls college athletes not the NCAA or the schools the kids are 100% in control but they elect to enter the system, If you want complete control don’t accept a scholarship be a regular student who pays their own way and have a great time.

I agree. But the scholarships are on a yearly basis as far as I know. So they accept the scholarship they belong to the school for the length of that scholarship. If the scholarship is for the 4-5 years then they should be bound for that 4-5 years.

No reason to force kids to sit out for switching schools unless some contract was broken.

 

[LHSTigers94]

a 6-month period of ineligibility (which would begin at the start of the school year) would cut down a lot on transfers that are solely for athletics, especially in the higher profile sports of football and basketball. it would essentially mean the transfers have to sit out a full season (unless the sport in question is in the spring).

open enrollment speaks for itself.

Why do you feel sitting out is necessary? Do you feel that a kid should be able to go where they want to? So if an adult leave a job, they shouldn't get paid for the next 6 months? What is the benefit of punishing a kid or family who decided the place they were at is beneficial for them. Keep in mind for them to attend another school they typically have to relocate. Moving isn't easy and take a lot of commitment.

I really don't understand the need to punish kids for something that is supposed to be for them. Maybe I am just missing it.
The sad part to me is that some are only concerned about 4 years of your life ONLY if it affects their team chances. High School is not the time or the place for you to make decisions to better yourself. I guess that is the message.

 

[LHSTigers94]

I agree. But the scholarships are on a yearly basis as far as I know. So they accept the scholarship they belong to the school for the length of that scholarship. If the scholarship is for the 4-5 years then they should be bound for that 4-5 years.

No reason to force kids to sit out for switching schools unless some contract was broken.

If it is a 4-5 year commitment, allow the kids to take an official visit for an entire week before deciding what school they want to attend. Official visits should only be during the season during the week leading up to a game. Holding kids accountable to decisions made based on false advertisement is manipulative.

 

[Truthbetold23]

Top- he is NOT first cousins with his teammate. From his own words he gave in an interview, he got to know him on the camp circuit.

Lol. Sounds like Top doesn't know JACK about it. Guess they didn't get their story straight when they decided which narrative to put out there to try to make this not sound completely nefarious. Shadiest program ever

 

[woody6]

It’s funny I think sites like Edgytim/ Rivals have given rise to the transfer problem since players want to increase their ranking or want to play with Johnny Four Star since they think he can get them a scholarship. In reality with Rivals and all these other recruiting services out there it has never been easier to get spotted so why transfer since if you have talent someone will find you.

In the Southland, Disabato's twitter feed is full of retweeted, egocentric athlete postings about their visits and commitments full of pictures that scream "me" instead of "we."

 

[Truth is Out There]

If it is a 4-5 year commitment, allow the kids to take an official visit for an entire week before deciding what school they want to attend. Official visits should only be during the season during the week leading up to a game. Holding kids accountable to decisions made based on false advertisement is manipulative.

You do know that a kid can transfer after a week or so enrolled at his original freshman school without any consequence?

 

[LHSTigers94]

You do know that a kid can transfer after a week or so enrolled at his original freshman school without any consequence?

And go where?

 

[corey90]

Not that I was college material but there would be no way my dad would pick up stakes so I could transfer to another school to play football. He’d say son, take it or leave it. I have friends that switch their kid’s summer baseball team every season just to get better looks. Either the kids have talent or they don’t and someone will see them. Kids have to make their own opportunities and some parents thinking they’re doing right thing are going to saddle them when they grow up and join the real world.

greatgig13

Thanks you couldn’t have said it any better. It’s not the kids it’s the parents!
Bones I hear ya but where is the teaching of values? Should we just turn a blind eye when it comes to the team? Heck why have rules at all? Just let everyone do whatever they want and let’s see how that plays out. No matter what it still comes down to parenting and the parents are making the decisions because they think they know more than the coaches. I know you point out that the kids that are really legit hardships are the ones hurt. I agree and that’s a shame. Again parents have figured out how to work the system and that’s sad.
I don’t know the answer but letting it continue isn’t going to make it better.

Okay stick a sword in me! I prolly deserve it.
Lol

 

[corey90]

Why do you feel sitting out is necessary? Do you feel that a kid should be able to go where they want to? So if an adult leave a job, they shouldn't get paid for the next 6 months? What is the benefit of punishing a kid or family who decided the place they were at is beneficial for them. Keep in mind for them to attend another school they typically have to relocate. Moving isn't easy and take a lot of commitment.

I really don't understand the need to punish kids for something that is supposed to be for them. Maybe I am just missing it.
The sad part to me is that some are only concerned about 4 years of your life ONLY if it affects their team chances. High School is not the time or the place for you to make decisions to better yourself. I guess that is the message.

LHS
Not a good comparison. I maybe in a different field when it comes to a job? My last two jobs had me sign a non-compete. That means I couldn’t work for a competitor for 1 1/2 years in the same industry. Believe me it holds up in court.
Just saying.

 

[corey90]

Why do you feel sitting out is necessary? Do you feel that a kid should be able to go where they want to? So if an adult leave a job, they shouldn't get paid for the next 6 months? What is the benefit of punishing a kid or family who decided the place they were at is beneficial for them. Keep in mind for them to attend another school they typically have to relocate. Moving isn't easy and take a lot of commitment.

I really don't understand the need to punish kids for something that is supposed to be for them. Maybe I am just missing it.
The sad part to me is that some are only concerned about 4 years of your life ONLY if it affects their team chances. High School is not the time or the place for you to make decisions to better yourself. I guess that is the message.

Me just being a fan would like to believe the kid that started for my school will be around for his senior year. I guess that means nothing anymore.

 

[eireog]

Why should athletes be the only ones to have the benefit of being allowed to transfer. Vouchers for everyone- go wherever you choose!!

 

[Cross Bones]

Why should athletes be the only ones to have the benefit of being allowed to transfer. Vouchers for everyone- go wherever you choose!!

Everyone can transfer. That's kind of the point. Why penalize a kid for changing schools. No one here has even given a reason for it yet and we're on page 2.