Dean - MC vs Marist Analysis? History?

[stl705]

7A is very respectable and has plenty of talent but it isn’t close to the depth of what 8A offers imo. I just think week 2 or week 4, it’s not hurting anyone to jump up. The playoff field is 256 teams whether MC is 7A or 8A and this yr we may even have sub .500 records in playoffs.

I don’t think MC will have any issues with enrollments between winning 7A and losing in the semis in 8A. It’s just about competition and seeing how good you are. MC has week 9 and then take a step down the rest of the way.

 

[eireog]

Gimme 8A as the open division. You want to be state champion petition up to 8A. Make 4A the small school state champion. First 32 that apply are in, if 32 don’t opt in it goes to the top(enrollment) whatever number is needed to get you to 32. The other divisions(7,6,5,3,2,1) can call themselves regional champs?

 

[Gene K.]

Gimme 8A as the open division. You want to be state champion petition up to 8A. Make 4A the small school state champion. First 32 that apply are in, if 32 don’t opt in it goes to the top(enrollment) whatever number is needed to get you to 32. The other divisions(7,6,5,3,2,1) can call themselves regional champs?

LOL. You sound like MC63! Big, Big trophy for 8A and small diminishing trophies for the rest. 1A the size of a cup cake!

 

[MC63]

LOL. You sound like MC63! Big, Big trophy for 8A and small diminishing trophies for the rest. 1A the size of a cup cake!

Totally untrue, Gene. You've misrepresented my comments and you know it very well. My gripe isn't small schools winning trophies, but high profile schools winning trophies against schools that are completely out of their depth. How can PC, Montini or
JCA possibly be proud of winning "championships" against schools with low profile programs.

 

[USD24]

Totally untrue, Gene. You've misrepresented my comments and you know it very well. My gripe isn't small schools winning trophies, but high profile schools winning trophies against schools that are completely out of their depth. How can PC, Montini or
JCA possibly be proud of winning "championships" against schools with low profile programs.

This is so tiresome. My son is, and should be, very proud of the championship he and his team won last year. This is what people are referring to when they say you take shots at kids! Programs don't win championships, the kids on the teams are the ones who win them and they have every right to be proud!

 

[Gene K.]

I don't think MC63 is taking shots at kids. More like taking shots at schools. Montini has been down for a couple of years now. The kids on the team would love to be playing for a championship regardless at what level. A small school like Montini with a total of 225+ boys has a real difficult time getting the big studs in the offensive and defensive lines. That is the achilles heel of most small schools.

 

[SUNDOWN]

Here is the IHSA handbook. Pages 99 and 101 may help clear up the inaccuracies posted by some above.

Page Not Found

 

[SUNDOWN]

Totally untrue, Gene. You've misrepresented my comments and you know it very well. My gripe isn't small schools winning trophies, but high profile schools winning trophies against schools that are completely out of their depth. How can PC, Montini or
JCA possibly be proud of winning "championships" against schools with low profile programs.

Who gets to define what a low profile program is? Are Hinsdale South, Marian Catholic, and Bloomington low profile or high profile programs?

 

[MC63]

This is so tiresome. My son is, and should be, very proud of the championship he and his team won last year. This is what people are referring to when they say you take shots at kids! Programs don't win championships, the kids on the teams are the ones who win them and they have every right to be proud!

Two things:

Guys like you respond to me with comments like, "This is where the iHSA placed us." True, but the iHSA places schools in eight categories -- and many programs petition up to reflect the caliber of playoff competition that they experienced in the regular season.

Yes, the players are proud of the championship, but -- what if they won a championship a few levels higher, where their capabilities indicated they belonged? They played 6A/7A teams in September and October. Why a lower level of talent in November? Most teams expect to play a tougher schedule in the post-season - not a much easier one.

Consider, too, the teams whose enrollment and level of football sophistication legitimately place them in 4A. Those kids are unlikely win a championship because the big boys have taken over. Is that fair or honorable?

I mean no disrespect to any of the players on any team. I do not have much respect,however, for the
administration and coaching staffs of a handful of programs.

 

[MC63]

Who gets to define what a low profile program is? Are Hinsdale South, Marian Catholic, and Bloomington low profile or high profile programs?

Depends on the level of competition they face season after season.

 

[stl705]

Unless I’m mistaken IDK any rationale explanation that Montini or ICCP or JCA whatever smaller school or whatever school shouldn’t be proud of a championship season. Of course they deserve it, they should celebrate it and cherish it.

I am by no means trying to downplay a 7A title for MC, nor am i trying to imply that. IF and it is an IF, MC wins 7A they most certainly deserve it!

I am just speaking from the view of an IHSA football fan and a fan of utmost competition. It isn’t a knock on MC to stay at 7A. BUT good lord help me if I can’t salivate over an 8A playoffs including the states absolute best teams.

 

[Vincennes6410]

Unless I’m mistaken IDK any rationale explanation that Montini or ICCP or JCA whatever smaller school or whatever school shouldn’t be proud of a championship season. Of course they deserve it, they should celebrate it and cherish it.

I am by no means trying to downplay a 7A title for MC, nor am i trying to imply that. IF and it is an IF, MC wins 7A they most certainly deserve it!

I am just speaking from the view of an IHSA football fan and a fan of utmost competition. It isn’t a knock on MC to stay at 7A. BUT good lord help me if I can’t salivate over an 8A playoffs including the states absolute best teams.

Many of the 7A (and even teams in lower classes) play some of the best teams in the regular season that are 8A. Really not much of a difference between 8A and 7A IMO. The problem I see with all the “Top Teams” moving to 8A is there’s a good chance most get knocked out of the playoffs depending on their paths.

Speaking as an MC fan and for all the teams that play in the CCL Blue the regular season schedule is brutal. Then to throw them all into 8A for competition sake doesn’t make much sense. Currently 2 are 8A and 2 are 7A. The notion there isn’t top tier talent in both of these classes doesn’t add up. For argument sake. Why not put the top 6 teams in the same division and we can watch half of them miss the playoffs. I know that’s not the best of analogies. Just my 2 cents.

 

[stl705]

As far as im concerned Rita, Br Rice, Marist etc. have a ways to go until they get to the level of MC and Loyola are RIGHT NOW. A great season here or there (as was last year for both) sure, but you’re exactly right about these type of teams getting booted from 8A playoffs. I’m specifically talking teams that are clearly at the creme of rhe crop ala LWE, Loyola, and MC. There isn’t anybody on the forum that doesn’t have MC in the 7A champ game.

As far as regular season, you’re damn right the CCL is the toughest conf in the state, BUT I don’t see anyone predicting Mt Carmel to lose ANY games outside week 9. Is it the same for the playoffs if they play in 8A? Wasn’t the spread against one of these blue teams 27 points for both loyola and mc last week? And they both covered!


I love the CCL without having any affiliation at all, it not only boosts those programs but it boosts Football in the entire state to have them as good as they are. So I hear and agree your point on reg season, but as far as whose the best in state? Only 1 way to decide that and it should be in 8A playoffs, not becuz some old fart said so on edgy tim forum.

 

[Vincennes6410]

As far as im concerned Rita, Br Rice, Marist etc. have a ways to go until they get to the level of MC and Loyola are RIGHT NOW. A great season here or there (as was last year for both) sure, but you’re exactly right about these type of teams getting booted from 8A playoffs. I’m specifically talking teams that are clearly at the creme of rhe crop ala LWE, Loyola, and MC. There isn’t anybody on the forum that doesn’t have MC in the 7A champ game.

As far as regular season, you’re damn right the CCL is the toughest conf in the state, BUT I don’t see anyone predicting Mt Carmel to lose ANY games outside week 9. Is it the same for the playoffs if they play in 8A? Wasn’t the spread against one of these blue teams 27 points for both loyola and mc last week? And they both covered!


I love the CCL without having any affiliation at all, it not only boosts those programs but it boosts Football in the entire state to have them as good as they are. So I hear and agree your point on reg season, but as far as whose the best in state? Only 1 way to decide that and it should be in 8A playoffs, not becuz some old fart said so on edgy tim forum.

Honestly……. I could care less who’s the best team in the state. IMO these schools in the blue have earned the right to go into the playoffs playing exactly where they’re supposed to be. Not like any of these teams have played creampuff schedules and don’t deserve to be in the playoffs. I realize you’ve conceded that.

On the flip side of this discussion…. Why not move weaker 8a teams down a few levels to compete with teams on their level? And replace those teams with 5 and 6A powerhouse to level the playing field?

 

[stl705]

Honestly……. I could care less who’s the best team in the state. IMO these schools in the blue have earned the right to go into the playoffs playing exactly where they’re supposed to be. Not like any of these teams have played creampuff schedules and don’t deserve to be in the playoffs. I realize you’ve conceded that.

On the flip side of this discussion…. Why not move weaker 8a teams down a few levels to compete with teams on their level? And replace those teams with 5 and 6A powerhouse to level the playing field?

I think the “lesser 8As” moving to 7A and the elite 5/6As in the same bracket would be amazing football to watch honestly. (not to mention basically an entire class of what was described above with CCL reg season play).

Would it be convoluted- it would and how do you administer it? If we’re being real though, it’s much more in line with reality than whatever the hell IHSA has now that someone posted a link referencing 2 whole pages of rules and stipulations LOL. I’m not saying ihsa should do the above, just saying it would be a hell of a football playoff tournament. Seems like anything like that would like mean a condensed # of classes, ie 6.

 

[Vincennes6410]

I think the “lesser 8As” moving to 7A and the elite 5/6As in the same bracket would be amazing football to watch honestly. (not to mention basically an entire class of what was described above with CCL reg season play).

Would it be convoluted- it would and how do you administer it? If we’re being real though, it’s much more in line with reality than whatever the hell IHSA has now that someone posted a link referencing 2 whole pages of rules and stipulations LOL. I’m not saying ihsa should do the above, just saying it would be a hell of a football playoff tournament. Seems like anything like that would like mean a condensed # of classes, ie 6.

I’d argue it wouldn’t be a great tournament. The best teams from each class would be removed and thrown into one class. Remember, many of these lower class schools elect to play a very very tough schedule. I’d point you to Phillips as an example. Look at their first 3 games vs. 3 powerhouse teams they do not have to play then playing a dominant conference schedule.

 

[USD24]

Two things:

Guys like you respond to me with comments like, "This is where the iHSA placed us." True, but the iHSA places schools in eight categories -- and many programs petition up to reflect the caliber of playoff competition that they experienced in the regular season.

Yes, the players are proud of the championship, but -- what if they won a championship a few levels higher, where their capabilities indicated they belonged? They played 6A/7A teams in September and October. Why a lower level of talent in November? Most teams expect to play a tougher schedule in the post-season - not a much easier one.

Consider, too, the teams whose enrollment and level of football sophistication legitimately place them in 4A. Those kids are unlikely win a championship because the big boys have taken over. Is that fair or honorable?

I mean no disrespect to any of the players on any team. I do not have much respect,however, for the
administration and coaching staffs of a handful of programs.

That is simply not true. Joliet Catholic's in-state schedule this year consists of 2 3A schools, 3 4A schools, 2 5A schools and 1 7A schools. If we are going on your premise that you should play in the class that you play all year, JCA clearly belongs in 4A.

 

[MC63]

That is simply not true. Joliet Catholic's in-state schedule this year consists of 2 3A schools, 3 4A schools, 2 5A schools and 1 7A schools. If we are going on your premise that you should play in the class that you play all year, JCA clearly belongs in 4A.

The classifications you cite were based on enrollment, and little with quality of the program (some might be affected by previous championships - I'm not sure). However, looking at your schedule, i notice five schools with a substantial interest in the success of their football program: Brother Rice, St Laurence, DeLaSalle, Montini and Providence. ( I don't really know much about the other three..) At each of these five schools, and JCA, as well, football is the prominent sport and activity. Everything else revolves around the gridiron (DLS has a strong basketball presence). The investment in coaching and facilities generally far outreaches that of the more rural schools in the lower classes. The six schools I cited either have or look to have powerhouse programs. They're football-centric schools. When they meet some small town school (or even a suburban school like Evergreen Park), they are at a huge advantage.

The lowest any of these 6 schools should be is 6A. Otherwise, they're just shopping for a cheap trophy.

 

[Caravan6410]

It’s astonishing anyone has the time to think and react to 99% of these posts. I definitely don’t. Nor would I. 1A, 8A. Who give a shit? Go Caravan!

 

[Topiary]

So this was a good game - probably Marists best chance in games played to date

 

[BornNRazed]

Very kind of them to not show the punt carom off the Marist return man's helmet. Or when Marist dropped the pass in the end zone w 1 minute remaining. Its only been 30 years and yep I'm still bitter.

 

[Topiary]

Very kind of them to not show the punt carom off the Marist return man's helmet. Or when Marist dropped the pass in the end zone w 1 minute remaining. Its only been 30 years and yep I'm still bitter.

Damn did not know that - if Marist scores would they have gone for 2 or forced OT?

 

[MC63]

Very kind of them to not show the punt carom off the Marist return man's helmet. Or when Marist dropped the pass in the end zone w 1 minute remaining. Its only been 30 years and yep I'm still bitter.

For some of us born into the Irish race, grudges are all we have. I'm still mad at my draft board.

 

[Silver Rain]

MC should deploy Danny Novickas as a stealth sack artist and have him coming off the edge like he did last year and Tommy Eagan in 2019.

 

[BornNRazed]

Damn did not know that - if Marist scores would they have gone for 2 or forced OT?

Two! It was determined before the start of the drive. Also, this was the first time the schools had ever played each other.

 

[DeanOfSelection]

Two! It was determined before the start of the drive. Also, this was the first time the schools had ever played each other.

I can visualize the play being there. I recall a play down the middle where the guy was wide open but fell in the mud. Also, I think the starting RB was out- Paul Andreotti? Survive and Advance both teams played just 2 days before.

 

[Wittymoniker1]

Mount Carmel is not in danger of the Success Factor for Fall Football 2023 or 2024.

Mount Carmel is already multiplied this year Fall 2022 for their 2019 playoff run which included winning the 7A crown. 1.65 multiplier kicks in after 3 playoff wins in any year of the 2-year cycle that the current two-year cycle is based upon, which is why Brother Rice and Marist are also multiplied for Fall 2022.

The only teams that could be subject to the Success Factor for Fall 2023 and Fall 2024 are:
St. Rita
Fenwick
Joliet Catholic
Sacred Heart-Griffin

Rock,

U know where Rita would be classified for 2023? Or does it depend on what she does this year?

 

[RockSoup]

Rock,

U know where Rita would be classified for 2023? Or does it depend on what she does this year?

Not getting too deep into school to IHSA reported enrollments which I don’t have access to until the IHSA posts it, the possibilities range from 6A to 8A

 

[Wittymoniker1]

Not getting too deep into school to IHSA reported enrollments which I don’t have access to until the IHSA posts it, the possibilities range from 6A to 8A

Verbal confirmation. Thanks! You'd be writing a book.

Cascia: you're basically in 7A for a few years.

Going to have to deal with M.C. DuKane and Jacob Prospect among the others for a while! Not sure where BR would be? Now, let's do this!

 

[DeanOfSelection]

Verbal confirmation. Thanks! You'd be writing a book.

Cascia: you're basically in 7A for a few years.

Going to have to deal with M.C. DuKane and Jacob Prospect among the others for a while! Not sure where BR would be? Now, let's do this!

Witty: 1988 Marist should have ran the Reno Hightower/Kurt Russell to Robin Williams play in the mud from "The Best of Times"