CPS Eliminating School Choice

[SouthofI80FootballFan]

I have little to no idea how football works within CPS. How will this change impact those CPS schools that play football ?

Feel free to flush if this is too controversial or political.

Chicago Board of Education says new strategic plan won't close selective enrollment schools

The resolution moves away from school choice in favor of "elevating" neighborhood schools.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[Coach Percy]

It won't help for years to come. It will take time to implement and improve the schools and then convince parents that they are a viable option. Football won't see a sign of increase for at least 3-4 years

 

[RameyJacoby]

It won't effect football at all it might even help some schools get kids in the building, I love having choices but education system in Chicago is separate and not equal. at Glance it feel like racism among schools. selective enrollment separates and creates barriers that we say we don't want as adults. every good education.

Payton - Football
Lindblom - Football
Brooks- Football
Lane- Football
Young - Football
Jones - No Football
North Side -No Football
King- Football
Hancock- No football
Westinghouse-Football

The schools above aren't the best when it comes to football , There known for academics< going away with selective enrollment would help gain more Athletes.

 

[deeg6]

The schools above aren't the best when it comes to football , There known for academics< going away with selective enrollment would help gain more Athletes.

Chicago ultimately lacks strong youth programs or school funding compared to the suburbs. Very few parent's are going to go out to the suburbs to find a team for their child to get involved young if they live in the city. Basketball is far more prevalent within the Chicago Park District and other youth programs, which is a fundamental reason why basketball consistently has strong programs among Chicago high schools schools. If anything, with the likelihood of test scores dropping and funding decreasing, the football programs could get worse with a lessening budget, which is a continuous problem CPL teams face. Also, with over 4300 students, I find it hard to believe that Lane Tech doesn't have enough student athletes to field a solid football team, just if there were "more athlete's". The fundamental problems that the CPL faces aren't going to magically go away if you end selective enrollment, I think there's a real likelihood that they could get worse if this happens. Schools like Whitney Young in basketball show it's possible to have academically strong student athletes. (Also, take my comments about funding with a grain of salt, not 100% sure on this statement)

 

[Coach Percy]

It won't effect football at all it might even help some schools get kids in the building, I love having choices but education system in Chicago is separate and not equal. at Glance it feel like racism among schools. selective enrollment separates and creates barriers that we say we don't want as adults. every good education.

Payton - Football
Lindblom - Football
Brooks- Football
Lane- Football
Young - Football
Jones - No Football
North Side -No Football
King- Football
Hancock- No football
Westinghouse-Football

The schools above aren't the best when it comes to football , There known for academics< going away with selective enrollment would help gain more Athletes.

There are many more selective enrollment schools than that (Clark, Westinghouse, Englewood & etc)and if you add in the CPS charter schools which you have to apply for too this decision affects alot of schools. Hopefully now we won't have the city talent so spread out

 

[HotBeer]

I think we all need to pump the breaks on a few things here...

There is nothing definitive in the article about closing or unwinding selective enrollment schools, just that the plan going forward will center on and seek to elevate neighborhood schools.

To be clear, "selective enrollment" only applies to 11 standalone schools and 3 programs within neighborhood schools.

Then there are a whole host of other "magnet", "district wide", etc. schools that do not have attendance boundaries, like Clark and Englewood mentioned by Percy above, Von Stuben, Simeon, etc. - literally dozens of these.

Then there are the dozens of charter schools that have cropped up over the last 20 years with often dubious student outcomes over traditional schools.

From an athletic standpoint, I think there are way too many schools in the district and it makes it difficult for schools to get critical mass around resources, talent, good coaches, community buy-in, etc. The BoE's plan so far seems very vague, and it's hard to say what exactly they intend to do, but I think investing in creating healthy, viable neighborhood schools is a pretty legitimate goal, perhaps by closing and combining some of these countless charters.

If the goal is to move away from school choice, I'm not sure "opening up" SE schools even makes sense... Most of them are not in areas where the local neighborhood schools are even remotely space constrained, and if just anyone can attend (no boundary) then you aren't really addressing the issue of neighborhood schools...

 

[ignazio]

“Chicago ultimately lacks strong youth programs or school funding compared to the suburbs.”

CPS spending per student is $30k.

 

[HotBeer]

“Chicago ultimately lacks strong youth programs or school funding compared to the suburbs.”

CPS spending per student is $30k.

And this is exactly the problem with having so many schools across a declining student population...

There are certain "fixed costs" that come with running a school. There are major efficiencies to running a 2,000 student high school vs some of the "failing" CPS highschools like Hirsch (106 students), Tilden (242 students), Douglass (33 students!!!), Fenger (209 students), Harlan (209 students), etc. etc. the list goes on!!! I read a recent article about Douglass, and there are between 20-30 faculty serving those 33 students. Talk about inefficiency!

These are all schools that were build to be neighborhood high schools and accommodate double, triple, 4x the number of students they have now!

So yes, CPS spends an absurd amount on each student, but it's a very misleading statistic because that money is going to prop up an insanely inefficient physical/fixed cost outlay, not deliver programming to students. If you consolidated all of these tiny CPS high schools the efficiency gains would be insane and you could actually use that funding to deliver programming and resources to the students, rather than pay 2x redundant principals and heat huge empty buildings all winter.

 

[Gene K.]

Glad I am not a parent of a student in the CPS system. The selective enrollment schools seem to be doing much better than the other schools. Closing these schools in the interest of so called "equity" seems to be an attempt by the teachers union to gather more control over the CPS system. The CPS educational system currently is failing too many black and brown students and taking away a lifeline for some by eliminating selective enrollment seems like a really bad idea.

 

[Gene K.]

Wall street Journal article about this topic.

MSN

 

[Coach Percy]

Glad I am not a parent of a student in the CPS system. The selective enrollment schools seem to be doing much better than the other schools. Closing these schools in the interest of so called "equity" seems to be an attempt by the teachers union to gather more control over the CPS system. The CPS educational system currently is failing too many black and brown students and taking away a lifeline for some by eliminating selective enrollment seems like a really bad idea.

Let me play devil's advocate......those schools only has limited number of spots. Do we sacrifice the majority of the students to placate the few kids that get in? CPS biggest problem is there are too many schools. Opening all those charter schools killed the neighborhood schools. Govt Funds for schools are tied to enrollment. And instead of combining schools, CTU has prevented them from closing anymore schools. Plus the amount of school aged children in Chicago has dropped significantly since the last wave of new charters in the 2010s

 

[HotBeer]

Let me play devil's advocate......those schools only has limited number of spots. Do we sacrifice the majority of the students to placate the few kids that get in? CPS biggest problem is there are too many schools. Opening all those charter schools killed the neighborhood schools. Govt Funds for schools are tied to enrollment. And instead of combining schools, CTU has prevented them from closing anymore schools. Plus the amount of school aged children in Chicago has dropped significantly since the last wave of new charters in the 2010s

Completely agreed.

CTU is interested in creating and maintaining as many jobs for themselves as possible, which makes them more powerful (bigger voting block). Closing schools is counter to that aim.

In a perfect world, we would have a handful of selective enrollment schools augment large, healthy neighborhood schools.

 

[Brin22]

I would think this decision ultimately leads to more students leaving CPS. I'll take this as a victory for private schools.

 

[GhostOfTheGhhost]

I would think this decision ultimately leads to more students leaving CPS. I'll take this as a victory for private schools.

This is the way I see it. Right now, the selective enrollment schools are the only thing keeping a lot of the kids that are enrolled in those schools in CPS. Those kids will be at private schools in a heartbeat if CPS ends the selective enrollment model.

 

[ramblinman]

Let me play devil's advocate......those schools only has limited number of spots. Do we sacrifice the majority of the students to placate the few kids that get in? CPS biggest problem is there are too many schools. Opening all those charter schools killed the neighborhood schools. Govt Funds for schools are tied to enrollment. And instead of combining schools, CTU has prevented them from closing anymore schools. Plus the amount of school aged children in Chicago has dropped significantly since the last wave of new charters in the 2010s

First of all, are the majority of students really being "sacrificed" currently because of selective enrollment schools? If so, how? And, how will eliminating selective enrollment schools make a dent in that sacrifice?

Secondly, if the first biggest problem in CPS is that there are too many schools, its problem 1B is that its non-selective enrollment schools are mediocre at best. How much of that second biggest problem is going to be solved by eliminating the selective enrollment component of a couple of handfuls of schools? If a few thousand kids DON'T enroll in CPS schools because of eliminating the selective enrollment schools, and the number of CPS schools remains the same, how is that solving anything?

 

[ramblinman]

This is the way I see it. Right now, the selective enrollment schools are the only thing keeping a lot of the kids that are enrolled in those schools in CPS. Those kids will be at private schools in a heartbeat if CPS ends the selective enrollment model.

How about no tuition? Is that not a factor in keeping a good number of them there?

 

[ramblinman]

I would think this decision ultimately leads to more students leaving CPS. I'll take this as a victory for private schools.

Not a big victory for all Chicago private schools, though.

There are roughly 16,000 kids enrolled in SEHS in CPS. Most incoming upperclassmen would probably stay and not transfer out the year the selective enrollment component is eliminated. Let's say that, in the first year of such a change, an additional 2,000-3,000 kids (both transfers and incoming freshmen) want to enroll in private schools. In subsequent years, let's call it between 1,500 and 2,000 additional kids enrolling. Once four full years pass, there may be from 6,000 to 8,000 extra kids choosing a private education because there is no CPS selective enrollment option.

Where are they all going to go?

Very few would be able to afford independent schools like Latin, Parker, Morgan Park Academy, U-High, British School, etc. Do those schools have the extra financial aid and seats available for a few hundred more applicants?

More could afford faith-based schools, but those aren't exactly cheap tuitions, either. Private schools like Loyola, Ignatius and DePaul are already operating at full capacity. More applicants at those schools are just going to mean they turn away even more kids.

I can definitely see benefits for private schools in or very near the city operating at less than full capacity. But, again, do they have the financial aid available for a large increase of applicants? How many of these new kids will actually wind up being able to afford enrolling in these schools?

 

[HotBeer]

Not a big victory for all Chicago private schools, though.

There are roughly 16,000 kids enrolled in SEHS in CPS. Most incoming upperclassmen would probably stay and not transfer out the year the selective enrollment component is eliminated. Let's say that, in the first year of such a change, an additional 2,000-3,000 kids (both transfers and incoming freshmen) want to enroll in private schools. In subsequent years, let's call it between 1,500 and 2,000 additional kids enrolling. Once four full years pass, there may be from 6,000 to 8,000 extra kids choosing a private education because there is no CPS selective enrollment option.

Where are they all going to go?

Very few would be able to afford independent schools like Latin, Parker, Morgan Park Academy, U-High, British School, etc. Do those schools have the extra financial aid and seats available for a few hundred more applicants?

More could afford faith-based schools, but those aren't exactly cheap tuitions, either. Private schools like Loyola, Ignatius and DePaul are already operating at full capacity. More applicants at those schools are just going to mean they turn away even more kids.

I can definitely see benefits for private schools in or very near the city operating at less than full capacity. But, again, do they have the financial aid available for a large increase of applicants? How many of these new kids will actually wind up being able to afford enrolling in these schools?

I think this is pretty accurate.

A pretty high percentage of family profiles at WY, Lane, Payton, Jones, Northside have the means or at least the gumption to exit CPS in one shape or another, but as you mentioned the list of private schools with room for them is pretty small.

If SE was removed tomorrow, I think you would see a cascading effect of:

• Increased admissions standards at the private schools mentioned above and others at/near capacity (I don't think there's a ton of headroom at ND or Rez, for example)
• Some families leaving the city limits
• A boon to St Pats, DLS, Leo perhaps, Regina, etc.
• An increase in-zone enrollment at Taft, Amundsen, LP

The resulting effect is nothing but negative for those without the means or ability to do one of the above. Which seems like a really stupid plan if you are CPS leadership bent on improving "equity".

 

[Gene K.]

Appreciate your thoughts on this Coach. What about increasing the spots in these selective enrollment schools or adding additional schools and closing all CPS high schools with less than 700 students. Doesn't seem right to throw the selective enrollment students into under achieving school environments. How many teachers and school administrators kids go to these schools or private schools? I would bet many do.

 

[UlbKA91]

Appreciate your thoughts on this Coach. What about increasing the spots in these selective enrollment schools or adding additional schools and closing all CPS high schools with less than 700 students. Doesn't seem right to throw the selective enrollment students into under achieving school environments. How many teachers and school administrators kids go to these schools or private schools? I would bet many do.

There had been talk several years ago of a partial pay-in model for the upper group of SES high schools for seats beyond the stated cut-off #...you could probably charge up to near a more workaday Catholic elementary school charges tuition... A buy in of 4500 or 5000 would not be the sticker shock of 7000 to 14000 between the local parish and an other than Jesuit CCL high school. All bets are off bc of the perceived woke factor of the CTU work force.

 

[Coach Percy]

Appreciate your thoughts on this Coach. What about increasing the spots in these selective enrollment schools or adding additional schools and closing all CPS high schools with less than 700 students. Doesn't seem right to throw the selective enrollment students into under achieving school environments. How many teachers and school administrators kids go to these schools or private schools? I would bet many do.

You wouldn't have to eliminate the SE if CPS would just give the neighborhood schools the resources they need

 

[GhostOfTheGhhost]

How about no tuition? Is that not a factor in keeping a good number of them there?

Sure, this is a huge issue. If you can get a great education at a school with no tuition, it’s a no-brainer. Like it was said in another post, a number of those kids at Northside, Jones, Peyton, and Young have parents with the means to afford tuition. they will not put their kids in a neighborhood school. That means private school, or they leave the city. One of the great advantages of SES, like private schools, is they can remove problem students. Neighborhood schools have to take everyone. Less problem students, equal a better educational environment for learning. Parents of high achieving students will make the financial sacrifice of tuition or moving for those students.

I have to imagine, though with such a radical change in CPS policy, many of the private schools would be able to expand with all that extra tuition money, no?

 

[Brin22]

Not a big victory for all Chicago private schools, though.

There are roughly 16,000 kids enrolled in SEHS in CPS. Most incoming upperclassmen would probably stay and not transfer out the year the selective enrollment component is eliminated. Let's say that, in the first year of such a change, an additional 2,000-3,000 kids (both transfers and incoming freshmen) want to enroll in private schools. In subsequent years, let's call it between 1,500 and 2,000 additional kids enrolling. Once four full years pass, there may be from 6,000 to 8,000 extra kids choosing a private education because there is no CPS selective enrollment option.

Where are they all going to go?

Very few would be able to afford independent schools like Latin, Parker, Morgan Park Academy, U-High, British School, etc. Do those schools have the extra financial aid and seats available for a few hundred more applicants?

More could afford faith-based schools, but those aren't exactly cheap tuitions, either. Private schools like Loyola, Ignatius and DePaul are already operating at full capacity. More applicants at those schools are just going to mean they turn away even more kids.

I can definitely see benefits for private schools in or very near the city operating at less than full capacity. But, again, do they have the financial aid available for a large increase of applicants? How many of these new kids will actually wind up being able to afford enrolling in these schools?

Agree with you on all points, ramblin. Another thing we are not taking into account, however many students do decide to leave the CPS system this will negatively impact CPS because these students are most likely the best and brightest they have to offer. Agree with your assessment, we are talking about a tremendous amount of students here, but these are students that probably require minimal resources and with them leaving will drop enrollment and success factors that lead to funding.

In private schools these students could potentially be in line for merit and/or need based aid to help offset the costs.

 

[mikeywoj]

Appreciate your thoughts on this Coach. What about increasing the spots in these selective enrollment schools or adding additional schools and closing all CPS high schools with less than 700 students. Doesn't seem right to throw the selective enrollment students into under achieving school environments. How many teachers and school administrators kids go to these schools or private schools? I would bet many do.

Including the charters of Perspectives, CICS, Urban Prep, Excel and Acero, that would mean closing 70+ schools...

The blowback of that would be crazy. It also includes closing multiple schools in similar areas, leaving some areas without a single high school. Or one in which the kids might have to travel quite the distance.

 

[HotBeer]

Including the charters of Perspectives, CICS, Urban Prep, Excel and Acero, that would mean closing 70+ schools...

The blowback of that would be crazy. It also includes closing multiple schools in similar areas, leaving some areas without a single high school. Or one in which the kids might have to travel quite the distance.

Every kid has a neighborhood high school, and none of the zones are that large, so closing the charters wouldn't leave anyone in a position where they "have" to travel long distances to schools. There's a way to do this by combining charters, getting rid of some of the tiny unboundaried CPS schools, etc.

Here is a very simple example of the inefficiency:

Richards is on 50th & Laflin - 290 students
Tilden is on 47th & Halsted - 242 students

Both are neighborhood schools with very small and cohesive attendance areas. Both buildings could accommodate 3x the current student body. There is not economic or curricular reason for both of these schools to operate independently.

There are tons of illogical outlays like this all over the city.

Bowen has 198 students and probably the smallest (geographically) attendance area in the city. On BOTH SIDES (E/W) of the Bowen boundary is the Hirsch attendance area, which has 198 students!!! Again, plenty of room for both in the Bowen building, which is centrally located!

Both examples ignore the crazy amount of charters or nonboundaried schools around each.

I realize there are additional factors (gangs, etc.), but CPS justifying these schools remaining open is just crazy and wasteful.

 

[Gene K.]

Here is a very simple example of the inefficiency:

Richards is on 50th & Laflin - 290 students
Tilden is on 47th & Halsted - 242 students

This type of inefficiency is so typical of the CPS system. The amount of tax dollars spent on just these two schools does not show any fiscal responsibility whatsoever. 532 students @ $30 per pupil equals $15,960,000. My God, who is watching the store? How many small private schools would love to have that kind of inflow of money? Incompetence or simply not caring about how tax dollars are spent? Looking at how the entire city government operates this inefficiency is not a big surprise!!!!

 

[King MJ]

I think this is pretty accurate.

A pretty high percentage of family profiles at WY, Lane, Payton, Jones, Northside have the means or at least the gumption to exit CPS in one shape or another, but as you mentioned the list of private schools with room for them is pretty small.

If SE was removed tomorrow, I think you would see a cascading effect of:

• Increased admissions standards at the private schools mentioned above and others at/near capacity (I don't think there's a ton of headroom at ND or Rez, for example)
• Some families leaving the city limits
• A boon to St Pats, DLS, Leo perhaps, Regina, etc.
• An increase in-zone enrollment at Taft, Amundsen, LP

The resulting effect is nothing but negative for those without the means or ability to do one of the above. Which seems like a really stupid plan if you are CPS leadership bent on improving "equity".

Completely agree here. Small point -- ND does have room for at least 40-50 more kids.

I would expect Iggy to be the biggest winner among athletic types, followed by Depaul

 

[StormFire]

Sure, this is a huge issue. If you can get a great education at a school with no tuition, it’s a no-brainer. Like it was said in another post, a number of those kids at Northside, Jones, Peyton, and Young have parents with the means to afford tuition. they will not put their kids in a neighborhood school. That means private school, or they leave the city. One of the great advantages of SES, like private schools, is they can remove problem students. Neighborhood schools have to take everyone. Less problem students, equal a better educational environment for learning. Parents of high achieving students will make the financial sacrifice of tuition or moving for those students.

I have to imagine, though with such a radical change in CPS policy, many of the private schools would be able to expand with all that extra tuition money, no?

Completely agree here. Small point -- ND does have room for at least 40-50 more kids.

I would expect Iggy to be the biggest winner among athletic types, followed by Depaul

DePaul, Loyola, and Iggys are near capacity - if anything they would just get even smarter kids and turn more kids away. But largely this CPS stupidity would not help them ND should be able to add 250 - they have about 800. Pars and Res could almost triple in size. And schools like Bro Rice, DeLaSalle, and Rita could and would add kids. Same w Larry’s, Mt Carmel, and even MacAuley.

But I cannot imagine CPS really pulling the trigger on this. At least not materially or soon.

 

[Silver Rain]

Equity, or equal outcomes, means that every student gets the same grade. If someone gets a higher score on the SAT, then we have to get rid of the SAT. There can be no stratification like there is now, because, as Brandon Johnson said, it "shames" the students lower on the curve. Remember that Johnson is a radical, a Marxist. He even has a five-year plan to "elevate" struggling, neighborhood schools. When he implements the plan, he won't close Young or Jones or Payton, but he'll restructure them in some way. He will eliminate excellence in favor of mediocrity.

 

[AmbroseBlack]

Equity, or equal outcomes, means that every student gets the same grade. If someone gets a higher score on the SAT, then we have to get rid of the SAT. There can be no stratification like there is now, because, as Brandon Johnson said, it "shames" the students lower on the curve. Remember that Johnson is a radical, a Marxist. He even has a five-year plan to "elevate" struggling, neighborhood schools. When he implements the plan, he won't close Young or Jones or Payton, but he'll restructure them in some way. He will eliminate excellence in favor of mediocrity.

Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

 

[Silver Rain]

Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

I long ago fell from grace with God, but my executive functions seem to be intact.