CCL/ESCC Program Health

[HotBeer]

I was listening to the Jordan Lynch interview, and a few comments got my gears turning:

It was interesting to hear both 1) Jordan's discussion of the fluctuation in football numbers from when he arrived at MC to now and 2) Eddie comment that St. Patrick had been struggling but seems to be on the right path now.

From those in the know, I'm curious what the respective health of the CCL/ESCC constituent programs is (both the program and the school itself).

I think we can all agree that LA and MC are beyond reproach, and it seems like St. Francis and Naz are operating at 100%. Football is not the lifeblood of Ignatius so I'm sure they are thrilled with this level of success.

Does ICCP continue to grow?
Do Benet and Fenwick settle into more of an academic-forward identity?
Are DeLaSalle and Leo circling the drain? Any uptick in numbers there?

Curious to hear the board's thoughts and insight on who is trending upwards and who is (unfortunately) poised to struggle going forward.

 

[nwfb99]

As Barstool Eddie mentioned St Pats had some down years after their nice playoff run in 2021. Luke Mertens is righting the ship at the school for the whole program and I can see some successful years on the horizon.

 

[McCaravan]

I’m guessing most programs are in good shape as long as the schools remain open which is always a concern in this day and age with Private schools. I can’t speak for some of the suburban programs like Benet, Montini IC and Viator but for the City CCL I think most programs are doing fine to outstanding. DePaul is seeing great numbers in the school and the football teams arrow is pointing up.

The two programs you mentioned on the Southside that are in danger is DLS and Leo, but Leo is going to continue to field a team as long as they have 11 players and the door remains open. If any school was in danger of closing its Leo but they keep trucking. Their basketball team used to be one of the Cities best but they are been stuggling badly as of late and that’s concerning for the future of Leo.

DLS is trying but it’s the same story it has been with them. They struggle to get the top line players in the door when they are fighting for the same kids as MC, SR, BR, Marist and now Iggy. Bridgeport and Carnaryville are not the large family neighborhoods they once were and funneled kids to DLS, that well is running dry. They are trying, they had four wins this year with a younger team and maybe if they can get in the 4A or 3A playoffs they can win some playoff games in a couple years but they don’t play a competitive schedule that hurts them drawing talented players, and they would lose badly to probably 80% of the CCL, but they can offer immediate and plentiful playing time to kids so they have that going for them. I don’t see them being in danger of losing the program anytime soon but as far as being consistently competitive it’s a real long shot

 

[lookoutforliam]

DePaul is on the up. Consistently getting better and more kids coming to the school. Notre Dame seems to be trending sideways right now. Santucci is doing a nice job getting kids to Pat's, though I still think a move to another campus would be beneficial.

 

[crazylegs777]

St.Laurence I understand once was in danger is now doing pretty good. A school much like Leo that is in danger that hasn't had football in years is St Francis De Sales

 

[colin2229]

Lynch said he activity goes out and recruits and Honecek said he has to see what he had come day 1.

What is more common in the CCL?

 

[HotBeer]

I’m guessing most programs are in good shape as long as the schools remain open which is always a concern in this day and age with Private schools. I can’t speak for some of the suburban programs like Benet, Montini IC and Viator but for the City CCL I think most programs are doing fine to outstanding. DePaul is seeing great numbers in the school and the football teams arrow is pointing up.

The two programs you mentioned on the Southside that are in danger is DLS and Leo, but Leo is going to continue to field a team as long as they have 11 players and the door remains open. If any school was in danger of closing its Leo but they keep trucking. Their basketball team used to be one of the Cities best but they are been stuggling badly as of late and that’s concerning for the future of Leo.

DLS is trying but it’s the same story it has been with them. They struggle to get the top line players in the door when they are fighting for the same kids as MC, SR, BR, Marist and now Iggy. Bridgeport and Carnaryville are not the large family neighborhoods they once were and funneled kids to DLS, that well is running dry. They are trying, they had four wins this year with a younger team and maybe if they can get in the 4A or 3A playoffs they can win some playoff games in a couple years but they don’t play a competitive schedule that hurts them drawing talented players, and they would lose badly to probably 80% of the CCL, but they can offer immediate and plentiful playing time to kids so they have that going for them. I don’t see them being in danger of losing the program anytime soon but as far as being consistently competitive it’s a real long shot

It was interesting to hear Lynch say DLS was his second choice. I would imagine in the last 15 years the demographics in Bridgeport have really eroded their recruiting base. Where do the majority of DLS kids come from? It's not event he first (or second) closest school to any CCL hotbed area.

 

[SiuCubFan8]

Talent level at SF is strong, would love to see numbers up though.

 

[HotBeer]

Lynch said he activity goes out and recruits and Honecek said he has to see what he had come day 1.

What is more common in the CCL?

I have to believe it comes down to demographics, and LA and MC seem like two of the extreme ends of the spectrum.

LA is 1) densely surrounded by families that can afford private 2) far from any comparable "product" (a co-ed school with top academics)

MC is 1) NOT surrounded by families with means 2) close to many "similar" schools (or said differently, there are many similar schools closer to the pockets with the demos that go to Catholic schools in large numbers) and 3) All boys

So there isn't much friction (choice, money, distance, coed/academic) for someone in the concentric circles around LA to send their kid there.

On the other hand, MC has to not only find kids that can go the catholic route, but then convince them that should travel farther and/or go all boys, rather than go to BR, Rita, Bishop Noll, Providence, Larry, DLS, Leo, Marist, Marion Catholic, etc!

So depending on where you are on that spectrum, recruiting becomes more or less important. Despite Antioch's complaints, I don't think Carmel or Viator are recruiting their tails off, but I imagine the other southside all boys schools are similar to MC in their efforts.

 

[McCaravan]

St.Laurence I understand once was in danger is now doing pretty good. A school much like Leo that is in danger that hasn't had football in years is St Francis De Sales

Leo has a strong older alumni base that keeps the school going, but sooner or later, that will end as the living alumni grows smaller. DeSales and Leo both get a lot of help keeping their lights on from The Big Shoulders Corporation. Both those schools have very small enrollments but they also have none of the amenities and facilities that other CCL schools do like MC, Marist and SR. It’s basically the building in it’s original form.

Laurence wasn’t really in danger. They made the 5A semifinals in 2015 and 2016 and the quarterfinals in 2017….then Blackmon was fired after 2018 and Nissen missed the playoffs 2 years in a row until this past year. If they keep their schedule it was this year, which was a lighter one, they will be a decent team again, but I don’t see them staying in 4A next year as their enrollment continues to rise.

 

[HotBeer]

Leo has a strong older alumni base that keeps the school going, but sooner or later, that will end as the living alumni grows smaller. DeSales and Leo both get a lot of help keeping their lights on from The Big Shoulders Corporation. Both those schools have very small enrollments but they also have none of the amenities and facilities that other CCL schools do like MC, Marist and SR. It’s basically the building in it’s original form.

Laurence wasn’t really in danger. They made the 5A semifinals in 2015 and 2016 and the quarterfinals in 2017….then Blackmon was fired after 2018 and Nissen missed the playoffs 2 years in a row until this past year. If they keep their schedule it was this year, which was a lighter one, they will be a decent team again, but I don’t see them staying in 4A next year as their enrollment continues to rise.

Is Lenti still helping out at Larry?

 

[McCaravan]

Is Lenti still helping out at Larry?

He was on the sideline for their State game. Although I believe his role is more of an advisor then a coach. I don’t think he ever coached there in the traditional sense, he’s more of an athletic advisor to the sports programs

 

[Snetsrak61]

What is the status of lower levels in terms of freshman/JV participation levels? Are schools fielding 3 levels of play or are most at just Varsity and JV now?

 

[crazylegs777]

Leo has a strong older alumni base that keeps the school going, but sooner or later, that will end as the living alumni grows smaller. DeSales and Leo both get a lot of help keeping their lights on from The Big Shoulders Corporation. Both those schools have very small enrollments but they also have none of the amenities and facilities that other CCL schools do like MC, Marist and SR. It’s basically the building in it’s original form.

Laurence wasn’t really in danger. They made the 5A semifinals in 2015 and 2016 and the quarterfinals in 2017….then Blackmon was fired after 2018 and Nissen missed the playoffs 2 years in a row until this past year. If they keep their schedule it was this year, which was a lighter one, they will be a decent team again, but I don’t see them staying in 4A next year as their enrollment continues to rise.

Coach Blackmon was/is a super guy. I'm shocked he's not Coaching or is he?

 

[UlbKA91]

DLS and Lawrence fight for the Archer Ave Hispanic corridor but DLS traditionally used to get the bougie near south side kids in Lake Meadows, Oakland/Kenwood and HP. Plus some legacies but not as much condo kids maybe losing our to DePaul Prep.

 

[Lion4Life01]

Viator has been holding enrollment in the 800's - 900's for at least 25 years. Viator isn't really a football school though, so I'm not sure how much goes into recruiting football as the success/failure of the football team doesn't seem to have much impact on enrollment.

 

[cornerrat]

All.... A different perspective from the south. SHG high mark for enrollment many years ago was 845. Eight Catholic grade schools now down to six and many of those are on the small side.
Quite a few Catholics in the town going the public route. And the unique school boundries allow towns like Chatham, Rochester, Pleasant Plains the opportunity to have Springfield addresses and go to those schools. Throw in the three Springfield public high schools which still have (true or not) a bad reputation.

Springfield being the capitol of Illinois is a destination town. A major medical community and then of course you have the goverment "thing." Lots of good paying employment and services that keep the surrounding towns from drying up and people moving out.

Anyway back to SHG. The low mark for the school a short time ago was 499. Numbers are up a bit breaking that 12 year drop. Haven't got the latest from last weeks official meet and greet count for incoming students. The 2023 freshman count was 154. Getting overall numbers up over 600 in the next years would be a good thing. New management I'm told is working.

Tuition breaks come with parents salaries from 175,000 down. One thousand off at the top and at the "bottom" if a family makes 50,000 or less it's 3,500. $9,650 currently is the cost to attend. Frosh football numbers were better. It's a start. Go Cyclones.... Ratsy

 

[eagles2k3]

Viator has been holding enrollment in the 800's - 900's for at least 25 years. Viator isn't really a football school though, so I'm not sure how much goes into recruiting football as the success/failure of the football team doesn't seem to have much impact on enrollment.

They are up against some pretty good public school programs in the area for football.

Hersey, Prospect, Palatine have been pretty good. Parents keeping their kids home for football. However I'm hearing more and more kids are going there for lacrosse which has some pretty good football kids. That has kept them in pretty good shape.

They also do great recruiting for boys basketball. Solid program.

 

[sac'em]

Coach Blackmon was/is a super guy. I'm shocked he's not Coaching or is he?

Nice guy, terrible coach. What he did to Oak Lawn is inexcusable.

 

[ramblinman]

LA is 1) densely surrounded by families that can afford private 2) far from any comparable "product" (a co-ed school with top academics)

LA is surrounded by some of the best public high schools in Illinois, and all of them are coed. Please define "far." There are other excellent coed private schools near Loyola. North Shore Country Day is just a couple of miles away. St. Viator is about 12 miles away, as are Lake Forest Academy and DePaul College Prep.

MC is 1) NOT surrounded by families with means 2) close to many "similar" schools (or said differently, there are many similar schools closer to the pockets with the demos that go to Catholic schools in large numbers) and 3) All boys

MC IS surrounded by some of the worst performing public high schools in Illinois. For many Chicago parents willing and able to sacrifice to send their son anywhere other than a CPS non-selective high school, MC is an attractive option.

So there isn't much friction (choice, money, distance, coed/academic) for someone in the concentric circles around LA to send their kid there.

...other than having the choice to pay nothing and attend excellent public schools. Or paying a little less than Loyola tuition to attend great coed Catholic schools like Viator and DePaul that are nearby.

On the other hand, MC has to not only find kids that can go the catholic route, but then convince them that should travel farther and/or go all boys, rather than go to BR, Rita, Bishop Noll, Providence, Larry, DLS, Leo, Marist, Marion Catholic, etc!

You named some of the Catholic schools MC competes with. The furthest one from MC was PC at about 28 miles as the crow flies. If I were to list all the Catholic high schools within a 28-mile radius of LA, it would include every single Catholic high school in the Archdiocese of Chicago with the exception of Marian Catholic. That same radius would also include Joliet Diocese schools like ICCP, Montini, Benet, and St. Francis. Additionally, unlike MC that can't compete with all-girls Catholic schools, Loyola competes with one in their backyard plus four others within about a 14-mile radius.

Please don't misunderstand. I am not complaining. In fact, I feel that competition makes all private schools better and sets them apart from the public schools that run monopolies within their districts. It is more to say that MC is not the only Catholic high school that has a lot of other Catholic high schools it competes with.

 

[ramblinman]

They are up against some pretty good public school programs in the area for football.

Hersey, Prospect, Palatine have been pretty good. Parents keeping their kids home for football. However I'm hearing more and more kids are going there for lacrosse which has some pretty good football kids. That has kept them in pretty good shape.

They also do great recruiting for boys basketball. Solid program.

Plus they are raising the funds to substantially upgrade their outdoor athletics facilities including a new stadium.

 

[colin2229]

Do all these schools who give scholarships fundraise to pay for the scholarships or does the school just charge and collect less?

 

[ramblinman]

Do all these schools who give scholarships fundraise to pay for the scholarships or does the school just charge and collect less?

That's a really great question.

Every kid in a Catholic high school receives financial aid of sorts. That's because per student tuition never covers actual cost per student. There is always a gap that exists every year that is bridged through fundraising and other revenue producing activities (facility rental, concessions, camps, bookstore, cafeteria, etc.).

Beyond that gap, I believe that many/most Catholic schools fundraise every year for financial aid for those students who cannot afford the always discounted tuition.

Some schools that are fortunate enough to have been able to raise big money for endowments are able to use the revenue that those endowments spin off each year to help supplement what they raise annually for financial aid. In the case of schools like Loyola, Ignatius, Fenwick, etc., we are talking endowments that generate seven figure revenue amounts each year. Some of that endowment revenue goes to financial aid and some to other purposes, and some may even be reinvested back into the endowment.

I think that several independent schools like Lake Forest Academy, Latin, Parker, etc. may use a portion of the tuition paid by full paying parents to supplement their endowment and fundraising income for scholarships.

 

[HotBeer]

LA is surrounded by some of the best public high schools in Illinois, and all of them are coed. Please define "far." There are other excellent coed private schools near Loyola. North Shore Country Day is just a couple of miles away. St. Viator is about 12 miles away, as are Lake Forest Academy and DePaul College Prep.



MC IS surrounded by some of the worst performing public high schools in Illinois. For many Chicago parents willing and able to sacrifice to send their son anywhere other than a CPS non-selective high school, MC is an attractive option.

These are totally valid points and an interesting "other side of the coin". When I said "comparable product", I meant a coed Catholic education. Loyola is smack dab in the middle of a large population of people with means to pay for that if it's what they want. Most of the people with obvious means to pay for a Catholic education on the southside live closer to another option than MC.

I totally agree with your second point as well and that group no doubt makes up a large population at MC, but in terms of having to recruit vs not, I think the pipeline of "North suburban Catholic families" is more robust than "Chicago families proximate to MC that can and will make a tuition sacrifice", just IMO

...other than having the choice to pay nothing and attend excellent public schools. Or paying a little less than Loyola tuition to attend great coed Catholic schools like Viator and DePaul that are nearby.

You would know better than I would the overlap in draw between LA and Viator/DePaul. My overarching point is about having to get kids to make an "inconvenient" decision, and I would guess there aren't many kids that live closer to LA that willingly choose Viator (unless they feel they won't be good enough to play at LA), but I could be wrong. I imagine DePaul vs LA is a decision a vector of northside Chicago kids make. I doubt there are many kids North of Touhy going to DePaul.

You named some of the Catholic schools MC competes with. The furthest one from MC was PC at about 28 miles as the crow flies. If I were to look at all the Catholic high schools within a 28 mile radius of LA, it would include every single Catholic high school in the Archdiocese of Chicago with the exception of Marian Catholic. That same radius would also include Joliet Diocese schools like ICCP, Montini, Benet, and St. Francis. Additionally, unlike MC that can't compete with all-girls Catholic schools, Loyola competes with one in their backyard plus four others within about a 14-mile radius.

Naming the schools in a vacuum misses the point. Based on your own description of LA's attendance base, I highly doubt kids from Joliet or the towns around Montini and Benet are commuting to LA. That's a good thing - LA doesn't need them to! They turn 30% away each year and still have an 8A enrollment! I've never seen an LA roster with gradeschools (like alot of city CCL schools do) so feel free to correct me if there are actually kids making those crazy long journeys. On the flip side MC's captain and star Linebacker is from New Lenox where PC is located. They have kids on the roster from Portage and Crown Point and Bellwood and Matteson and Wicker Park and everywhere in between. I think they are one of the only schools in the state that actually uses the full radius.

I'm not really sure what you are arguing here: both LA and MC are successful, one head coach said they don't do any recruiting, and the other said they do lots of recruiting. Someone asked which is "more common", and I'm giving my take on why it depends based on demographics and geography - they necessitate that MC pull from a wider area. That's not a knock on LA, if anything it is a compliment.

If you think Holcek was BSing and LA actually does recruit a lot, or you have a different take than your prior insight to where LA gets it's kids from, I'm all ears. Again I'm confused with what you are arguing against.

 

[HotBeer]

And for reference, your comment on another thread was the following:

"Probably 55%-60% of the students are within a 6 or7-mile radius encompassing Glenview, Wilmette, Winnetka, Evanston, Northfield, Glencoe, and Northbrook, Skokie, Morton Grove, Lincolnwood, Niles, Deerfield, Highland Park, etc. Within that area, Glenview, Wilmette, Northfield and Winnetka (the closest suburbs to Loyola) probably account for roughly 70% of those kids. Other suburbs like Lake Forest, Lake Bluff, Park Ridge, Riverwoods, and Lincolnshire probably add another 8%-10%. The remainder are city kids, with most coming from northside neighborhoods like Rogers Park, Edgewater, Lake View, Uptown, Lincoln Park (all along the CTA Red/Purple Line that ends in Wilmette), and northwest side neighborhoods like Sauganash, Edgebrook, Wildwood, and Edison Park."

Which is why I am confused when you start talking about Montini and Joliet and Marian Catholic and ICCP etc. etc. etc.

When on the other hand a player from 6-7 miles from MC would be a rarity on that roster.

 

[ramblinman]

I totally agree with your second point as well and that group no doubt makes up a large population at MC, but in terms of having to recruit vs not, I think the pipeline of "North suburban Catholic families" is more robust than "Chicago families proximate to MC that can and will make a tuition sacrifice", just IMO

If by recruit you mean market themselves, all Catholic schools must do that. Also, there are substantial percentages of non-Catholic students at both LA and MC. Lastly, Loyola's market extends beyond north suburban families. Catholic or otherwise.

You would know better than I would the overlap in draw between LA and Viator/DePaul. My overarching point is about having to get kids to make an "inconvenient" decision, and I would guess there aren't many kids that live closer to LA that willingly choose Viator (unless they feel they won't be good enough to play at LA), but I could be wrong.

You are probably correct on that. What you are talking about is that 12 mile space between both schools. Are there kids 5-6 miles west of LA who go to Viator? Probably, but not many. Are there those who live 5-6 miles east of Viator who go to LA? Probably, but not many. Where LA and Viator really compete for kids is in areas like Park Ridge and the northwest side of the city (along the UP Northwest LIne) and then again up north and northeast of Arlington Heights in suburbs like Wheeling and Buffalo Grove.

I imagine DePaul vs LA is a decision a vector of northside Chicago kids make. I doubt there are many kids North of Touhy going to DePaul.

Funny you should say that. After the recent Catholic high school placement test, I heard about kids from St. Francis Xavier School in Wilmette (Loyola's hometown) who tested at DePaul.

Naming the schools in a vacuum misses the point. Based on your own description of LA's attendance base, I highly doubt kids from Joliet or the towns around Montini and Benet are commuting to LA.

Correct, but that isn't the point. Take a school like Fenwick in Oak Park that is 14 miles from LA. It's not about kids from Oak Park commuting to Loyola or kids from Wilmette commuting to Fenwick. It's about where both schools' 14-mile radii intersect roughly half-way in areas like Jefferson Park, Norwood Park, Edison Park, Norridge, Harwood Hts, etc., and kids from those areas commuting to both schools. If you want to cut that 28-mile radius in half to 14 miles, there are still 10-12 or so Catholic high schools with whom LA competes for some of the same kids...in addition to the excellent public high schools near Loyola.

That's a good thing - LA doesn't need them to! They turn 30% away each year and still have an 8A enrollment!

I don't know how many LA turns away anymore. They have always been pretty tight lipped about how many kids test, get accepted, etc. Also, they don't have actual 8A enrollment. It's solidly 7A at 1,986. The only way they get into 8A is through petitioning up or being success factored or multiplied.

I've never seen an LA roster with gradeschools (like alot of city CCL schools do) so feel free to correct me if there are actually kids making those crazy long journeys.

Probably not from places like Lisle or Wheaton, but I am definitely aware of southside kids who have taken public transportation to Loyola in the past.

On the flip side MC's captain and star Linebacker is from New Lenox where PC is located. They have kids on the roster from Portage and Crown Point and Bellwood and Matteson and Wicker Park and everywhere in between. I think they are one of the only schools in the state that actually uses the full radius.

True. I have seen MC yard signs on the northside in neighborhoods like Wicker Park, Ukranian Village, Ravenswood, etc. So, even there, you have MC's recruiting reach intersecting with Loyola's.

I'm not really sure what you are arguing here: both LA and MC are successful, one head coach said they don't do any recruiting, and the other said they do lots of recruiting. Someone asked which is "more common", and I'm giving my take on why it dependsbased on demographics and geography - they necessitate that MC pull from a wider area. That's not a knock on LA, if anything it is a compliment.

Actually, one head coach said HE never did any recruiting. That doesn't mean that other LA reps can't be found at youth football games.

If you think Holcek was BSing and LA actually does recruit a lot, or you have a different take than your prior insight to where LA gets it's kids from, I'm all ears. Again I'm confused with what you are arguing against.

I don't think that Holecek was BSing. No reason for him to BS or stretch the truth in this matter. Again, all Catholic schools recruit. If by recruit in this context you mean intentionally market to athletes, I'm sure LA does that to some extent. Do they sit across the dining room table from an 8th grade football player and flash their state championship rings? I hope not.

I wasn't really arguing as much as I was trying to add to your narrative. I felt like it was one sided in the sense that that MC has to go far and wide. Lots of schools have to go far and wide. Loyola is one of them. Do they go AS far and wide as MC? Probably not in general, but there are always outliers. I also felt that it didn't take into account the state of the local public school markets in which both schools compete.

These are totally valid points and an interesting "other side of the coin". When I said "comparable product", I meant a coed Catholic education. Loyola is smack dab in the middle of a large population of people with means to pay for that if it's what they want. Most of the people with obvious means to pay for a Catholic education on the southside live closer to another option than MC.

I would agree, but want to make clear that not everyone with means wants a Loyola education.

 

[HotBeer]

I wasn't really arguing as much as I was trying to add to your narrative. I felt like it was one sided in the sense that that MC has to go far and wide. Lots of schools have to go far and wide. Loyola is one of them. Do they go AS far and wide as MC? Probably not in general, but there are always outliers. I also felt that it didn't take into account the state of the local public school markets in which both schools compete.

I don't really want to derail the thread further - you're tossing out a lot of semantics ("He said HE never did any recruiting) and anecdotes (you are aware of a southside kid that took public transit to LA). Those are all besides my point.

My point is that MCs location necessitates more active "recruiting" than LAs. I would suggest that this is corroborated by both 1) the comments that the respective coaches have made and 2) the dispersion of the student bodies (Footnote). Holcek has said he has to "work with who comes in the door", and Lynch has made it pretty clear that literally convincing kids to come play football at MC is a priority of his. I'm pretty sure if you plotted the addresses of all the kids who attend both schools, the maps would look quite different.

If you disagree with that bold statement above then that's fine and let's just move on, I was hoping to share a helpful opinion to someone who asked about CCL recruiting. I'm not denying that LA and ALL private schools have to convince students to come there, something that LA clearly excels based on the numbers.

(Footnote) Imagine you did the following calculation for both schools:
The average for all students: (Miles traveled to LA/MC) - (miles to nearest catholic HS)
So a kid living next door to to MC would register as a zero, and MC LB Startz would register as a 30-35 depending on where in New Lennox he lives (IHSA rule is crow's path not driving distance). Honestly it would probably be more relevant to do it by drivetime than miles.
Which school's number would be higher? By how much?
IMO the results would demonstrate how much "inconvenience" a school is overcoming to convince kids to come to their catholic school specifically. I realize it ignores the allure of public schools, and there are probably several families at both schools for whom a catholic education was not an important part of their decision.

 

[ramblinman]

I don't really want to derail the thread further - you're tossing out a lot of semantics ("He said HE never did any recruiting) and anecdotes (you are aware of a southside kid that took public transit to LA). Those are all besides my point.

They may beside your point, but they are in response to points you made or tried to make. You said that Holecek said that LA doesn't recruit. I corrected you because he never said that. You doubted if LA had anyone commuting from far and wide (citing some western suburbs) to attend. I corrected you with fact -- that Loyola has had southside kids (not kid) attending the school. Fact: when I was a student at Loyola, we had probably a dozen or so kids in my class alone from the southside.

My point is that MCs location necessitates more active "recruiting" than LAs.

Talk about semantics. Define "recruiting." Is it simple marketing to all prospective students, or is it intentionally marketing to athletes?

If you disagree with that bold statement above then that's fine and let's just move on, I was hoping to share a helpful opinion to someone who asked about CCL recruiting. I'm not denying that LA and ALL private schools have to convince students to come there, something that LA clearly excels based on the numbers.

Again, if by recruiting you mean marketing, then I would disagree. I suspect that LA spends far more on marketing and more actively markets itself than MC. As a much bigger school, it pretty much has to. Also, if by "active recruiting," you mean casting a wider geographic net, I would also disagree. With limited recruitment dollars to spend, MC isn't going to waste them by recruiting at St Athanasius, a Catholic elementary school in Evanston which, by the way, is closer to MC by several miles than New Lenox. A much bigger school than MC, LA must recruit far and wide. It goes deep into the city and as far north as Lake Bluff. Back when Loyola operated its own bus routes, they used to have a route out to St Anne in Barrington about 20 miles away as the crow flies. If by recruiting, you mean intentionally marketing to athletes, I really have no idea.

(Footnote) Imagine you did the following calculation for both schools:
The average for all students: (Miles traveled to LA/MC) - (miles to nearest catholic HS)
So a kid living next door to to MC would register as a zero, and MC LB Startz would register as a 30-35 depending on where in New Lennox he lives (IHSA rule is crow's path not driving distance). Honestly it would probably be more relevant to do it by drivetime than miles.
Which school's number would be higher? By how much?
IMO the results would demonstrate how much "inconvenience" a school is overcoming to convince kids to come to their catholic school specifically. I realize it ignores the allure of public schools, and there are probably several families at both schools for whom a catholic education was not an important part of their decision.

When you put it that way, when you finally boil it down to actual enrollment and average commute, I would have to agree with you that the average commute is probably greater at MC than LA. That is likely more a factor of so many kids from the immediate surrounding area of LA enrolling at LA. I do understand that is your point. But, enrolling and recruiting are two very different things, and you seem to be using those two terms interchangeably. I would say that Loyola quite likely invests more money on student recruitment, visits more grade schools, has a larger database of prospective students, and intentionally recruits in more zip codes, than does MC.

 

[HotBeer]

You said that Holecek said that LA doesn't recruit. I corrected you because he never said that.

You're absolutely right - a blatant mischaracterization. I'll amend my statement to "The 16-year head coach of Loyola says he has never recruited, Jordan Lynch is adamant about it's importance"

You doubted if LA had anyone commuting from far and wide (citing some western suburbs) to attend. I corrected you with fact -- that Loyola has had southside kids (not kid) attending the school.

My understanding of Loyola's student base is based solely on your very detailed explanation, quoted above in the thread. I will revise my understanding to however you want to change your prior description... for now I'll just include "... + some southside kids."

Talk about semantics. Define "recruiting." Is it simple marketing to all prospective students, or is it intentionally marketing to athletes?

In this context, "convince students to attend in lieu of another catholic school."

Again, if by recruiting you mean marketing, then I would disagree. I suspect that LA spends far more on marketing and more actively markets itself than MC. As a much bigger school, it pretty much has to. Also, if by "active recruiting," you mean casting a wider geographic net, I would also disagree. With limited recruitment dollars to spend, MC isn't going to waste them by recruiting at St Athanasius, a Catholic elementary school in Evanston which, by the way, is closer to MC by several miles than New Lenox. A much bigger school than MC, LA must recruit far and wide. It goes deep into the city and as far north as Lake Bluff. Back when Loyola operated its own bus routes, they used to have a route out to St Anne in Barrington about 20 miles away as the crow flies. If by recruiting, you mean intentionally marketing to athletes, I really have no idea.

MC has ~125 freshman from "210 grammar schools and 100 zipcodes", LA has "500 freshman from 92 zipcodes", quotes from the school's websites

When you put it that way, when you finally boil it down to actual enrollment and average commute, I would have to agree with you that the average commute is probably greater at MC than LA. That is likely more a factor of so many kids from the immediate surrounding area of LA enrolling at LA. I do understand that is your point. But, enrolling and recruiting are two very different things, and you seem to be using those two terms interchangeably.

I'm not using them interchangeably, and it's not just commute times (as my formula states), it's being convinced ('recruited") to willfully make an inconvenient decision over a similar alternative. As literally evidenced by your comment above, LA does not have to do that at the same rate MC does.

I would say that Loyola quite likely invests more money on student recruitment, visits more grade schools, has a larger database of prospective students, and intentionally recruits in more zip codes, than does MC.

Ok, I'll concede - Loyola recruits more than Mount Carmel - I appreciate learning from your insider insight.

 

[ramblinman]

MC has ~125 freshman from "210 grammar schools and 100 zipcodes", LA has "500 freshman from 92 zipcodes", quotes from the school's websites

Um, no. Be careful with how you paraphrase.

The MC website states, "When you become a Man of Carmel, you join students from more than 210 grammar schools located in 100 zip codes in two states." To me, that means the whole school, not just the freshman class, is from 210 grammar schools in 100 zip codes. Where did you get the 125 freshmen number. If MC only has 125 freshmen, they are in a heap of enrollment trouble.

Same for Loyola. Their website states "Annually, we welcome over 500 students per grade from over 92 different zip codes" To me, that means that all four grades are from over 92 zip codes.

Regardless, I concede that MC draws from more zip codes.

However, the Midwest Jesuit province, which sponsors Loyola, states that Loyola draws students from "over 240 elementary schools throughout Chicago."

 

[SiuCubFan8]

How are the CCL/ESCC programs doing…

 

[Silver Rain]

MC is an attractive option. are substantial percentages of non-Catholic students at both LA and MC.

We had a few Jewish kids in our class who lived in the South Shore neighborhood but didn't want to attend either South Shore or Hyde Park.

I am definitely aware of southside kids who have taken public transportation to Loyola in the past.

I said this once before, but after winning another title, I was wearing my MC T-shirt around the neighborhood and a lady stopped to tell me that her son, born and raised in Wilmette, was determined to attend MC, where he became a star linebacker. But I'm sure he had a car.

 

[MC63]

was determined to attend MC, where he became a star linebacker. But I'm sure he had a car.

About 15 years ago, we had a kid from North Chicago. That's very far. He had to take one train downtown and then a second to Woodlawn.

That's dedication.

 

[HotBeer]

About 15 years ago, we had a kid from North Chicago. That's very far. He had to take one train downtown and then a second to Woodlawn.

That's dedication.

Must have been pre-30 mile radius

 

[MC63]

Must have been pre-30 mile radius

I don;t think he was an athlete

 

[tomloner]

Article in the Tribune today that selective enrolment schools in the CPS may turn into regular High Schools. If that were to happen the Catholic schools would reap a lot of those students. The Magnet schools were the one bright light in the CPS.

 

[epicbret]

While Nazareth has had athletic success, I wouldn't by any means consider the school athlete focused or centric.

It's been remarkable what Racki has achieved given what the impetus behind the institution has been.

 

[HRCJR]

Article in the Tribune today that selective enrolment schools in the CPS may turn into regular High Schools. If that were to happen the Catholic schools would reap a lot of those students. The Magnet were the one bright light in the CPS.

DePaul and Ignatius could easily increase in size by 50% if this happens

 

[HotBeer]

DePaul and Ignatius could easily increase in size by 50% if this happens

Would be a boon for St. Pat and DLS as well.

 

[nwfb99]

Article in the Tribune today that selective enrolment schools in the CPS may turn into regular High Schools. If that were to happen the Catholic schools would reap a lot of those students. The Magnet schools were the one bright light in the CPS.

They will be phased out over the next 5 years