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East Side Screws up Stream Again


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  1. Carlos Fisher sr.says:
    November 25, 2024 at 9:16 pm
    Hey Maurice it’s been a while this coach Fisher.Remember the black Party Bus and the “Corn”. What happened to the live broadcast against Richard’s .
    Reply
  2. Maurice Scottsays:
    November 26, 2024 at 5:51 pm
    Coach, the camera was working on Friday when we did a dry run. It was be broadcast this week

Football Enrollment

That creates a big problem though. How do you sort them out? Computer rankings?
I stand firm that enrollment is a great metric when it’s public v public.
The computer rankings are suspect at best. Montini was a +3 home dog according to “gambletron” this past weekend and rolled to a 30 point win.
I don’t know a single person that would’ve bet against Montini last Saturday, and I’m a Wilmington guy. Granted there were injury factors, but even healthy it would have taken a Herculean effort for them to even be competitive in that game.
I acknowledge that Byron almost beat Montini, and I have no illusions about it. I don’t know where any of those two teams would be in the hypothetical system, but I know that whatever computer input calpreps got was flawed because there’s no way Wilmo was a favorite against either Byron or Montini.
I agree computer rankings alone would not be enough, some human touch will always be needed. I guess I am thinking polls like College football. Not perfect but they get it close, even Max Preps gets it's fairly close. I would argue Byron could roll most if not all of the Upstate Eight Conference and they are mostly comprised of 7A and 8A teams with 6 from the conference making the playoffs. My money would be on Byron with the exception of maybe the WA game.

Football Enrollment

This is just a guess, but I think his point is that for the most part, public schools who are placed in a class based on actual enrollment, for the most part, fit effectively into that class.
For example, I will use the Fox Valley Conference, which has had amazing success with the league's two top schools at the 6A level but would likely never play at ISU if success-factored into the 8A level.
And, yes, there are outliers at both ends of the spectrum, and he acknowledges that by saying "pretty good indicator of."
Just off the top of my head, you have Rochester a legit title contender seemingly 8 years out of 10. And there's Lena-Winslow which is a perennial title contender in 1A as examples of public schools that perhaps are just too good for their class.
And then there's the other end of the spectrum. Would football at schools such as Morton, Waukegan, Zion-Benton, Round Lake, etc., have more participation if they were downsized to 5A or 4A rather than their current situations in which there is barely a non-zero chance of making the playoffs and a zero chance of meaningful playoff advancement.
The big-picture point is that if you dropped big-school horrible programs down several classes, then you are pushing up other schools to higher classes, and the schools that may get pushed up are not necessarily schools that could thrive at a higher class level. Rochester obvously could, Lena-Winslow obviously could and East St. Louis obviously could. But dropping a weak program way down can definitely be unfair to some other school.
Anyway, the guy's point probably is that of roughly 400 public schools playing football, that for those that make the postseason, they seem to fit into the right class. Schools get back-to-back strong classes and are strong two years, then fall back when those kids graduate.
That's, in general, how things work at many programs. Obviously, that doesn't hold true at the Maine South's and Barrington's of the world. But in general, I do agree with withe "pretty good indicator" premise.

Some very good points.
I will say enrollment has its place and certainly a starting point, I just think times have changed enough that it can't be the only factor. I could argue wealth of the athletes may play a bigger role now a days with year round training available. Morton West and East Aurora would love to know what they are missing.

Football Enrollment

I think this is a false equivalence. IHSA playoffs are filled with smaller schools dominating larger schools. I could argue a large portion of the upper class larger schools in IHSA playoffs would struggle against teams several classes below. To me the issue is on the outdated enrollment rule that they can only stay or go up.
That creates a big problem though. How do you sort them out? Computer rankings?
I stand firm that enrollment is a great metric when it’s public v public.
The computer rankings are suspect at best. Montini was a +3 home dog according to “gambletron” this past weekend and rolled to a 30 point win.
I don’t know a single person that would’ve bet against Montini last Saturday, and I’m a Wilmington guy. Granted there were injury factors, but even healthy it would have taken a Herculean effort for them to even be competitive in that game.
I acknowledge that Byron almost beat Montini, and I have no illusions about it. I don’t know where any of those two teams would be in the hypothetical system, but I know that whatever computer input calpreps got was flawed because there’s no way Wilmo was a favorite against either Byron or Montini.

Football Enrollment

Overall ability. Speed and size. On the macro, a team like Downers Grove South will always beat a team like Manteno. The odds against it are pretty astronomical.
I think this is a false equivalence. IHSA playoffs are filled with smaller schools dominating larger schools. I could argue a large portion of the upper class larger schools in IHSA playoffs would struggle against teams several classes below. To me the issue is on the outdated enrollment rule that they can only stay or go up.

Football Enrollment

Pretty good Indicator of?
This is just a guess, but I think his point is that for the most part, public schools who are placed in a class based on actual enrollment, for the most part, fit effectively into that class.
For example, I will use the Fox Valley Conference, which has had amazing success with the league's two top schools at the 6A level but would likely never play at ISU if success-factored into the 8A level.
And, yes, there are outliers at both ends of the spectrum, and he acknowledges that by saying "pretty good indicator of."
Just off the top of my head, you have Rochester a legit title contender seemingly 8 years out of 10. And there's Lena-Winslow which is a perennial title contender in 1A as examples of public schools that perhaps are just too good for their class.
And then there's the other end of the spectrum. Would football at schools such as Morton, Waukegan, Zion-Benton, Round Lake, etc., have more participation if they were downsized to 5A or 4A rather than their current situations in which there is barely a non-zero chance of making the playoffs and a zero chance of meaningful playoff advancement.
The big-picture point is that if you dropped big-school horrible programs down several classes, then you are pushing up other schools to higher classes, and the schools that may get pushed up are not necessarily schools that could thrive at a higher class level. Rochester obvously could, Lena-Winslow obviously could and East St. Louis obviously could. But dropping a weak program way down can definitely be unfair to some other school.
Anyway, the guy's point probably is that of roughly 400 public schools playing football, that for those that make the postseason, they seem to fit into the right class. Schools get back-to-back strong classes and are strong two years, then fall back when those kids graduate.
That's, in general, how things work at many programs. Obviously, that doesn't hold true at the Maine South's and Barrington's of the world. But in general, I do agree with withe "pretty good indicator" premise.

A Proposal for High School Football Playoffs

If one wants the Illinois high school football playoffs to be more competitive, better teams need to be included. That is, add some teams that are better than some of the teams currently included in the playoffs. If it is undesirable to expand the number of teams, this necessarily means some teams need to be dropped. The challenge is to do this in a fair and objective manner, with full transparency, and also to preserve a substantial number of playoff spots for teams from weaker conferences. The following set of selection and seeding criteria tries to do all that.

* All current IHSA procedures that are not specifically changed by the following amendments will remain in place.

* All teams with at least seven (7) regular season wins will be included in the playoffs; unless their conference prohibits it or the school itself chooses not to participate.

* All conference champions, (excluding conferences with less than six teams and conferences with more than eleven teams), will be included in the playoffs regardless of record. Current rules will determine the conference champion (and therefore automatic qualifier) in the case of ties. Teams from conferences with less than six teams and more than eleven teams will be treated like independents.

* Independents must have seven or more regular season wins to participate in the playoffs, unless they have played in a semifinal game at least once (in the aggregate) over the last five playoffs or have played two such teams during the current season (in which case they can participate with fewer than seven wins in accordance with current rules).

* All teams playing in a conference (with 6 to 11 members) where at least one conference member has played in at least one semifinal game over the last five playoffs will be eligible to play in the playoffs subject to currently existing selection rules.

* Teams playing in a conference where no conference member has played in a semifinal game over the last five playoffs must have seven regular season wins to participate in the playoffs, (except they can also qualify under the rules for independents).

* Private schools that have played in at least one semifinal game over the last five playoffs will have their student enrollment multiplied by 1.65 for the purpose of determining which class they will initially be assigned to.

* Private schools will be subject to the following success factor: X - 2 = Y
Where X is the number of semifinal games the school has played in over the last five playoffs, then Y will be the number of class levels the team will be moved up. As a current example, Nazareth Academy played in four semifinal games over the five playoffs immediately preceding 2023, and therefore its 2023 team will be moved up two class levels from its initial assignment (from 5A to 7A).

* Public schools will be subject to the following success factor: A - 2 = B
Where A is the number of state championships the school has won over the last five playoffs, then B will be the number of class levels the team will be moved up. As a current example, Lena-Winslow won four championships over the five playoffs immediately preceding 2023, and therefore its 2023 team will be moved up two class levels from its initial assignment (from 1A to 3A).

* Any team qualifying for the playoffs from a conference (6 to 11 members) without a semifinal appearance in the last five playoffs will be moved down one class level from its initial class assignment.

* For seeding purposes only, a modified regular-season win total will be used. All teams that have qualified for the playoffs and have played in at least one semifinal game (in the aggregate) during the preceding five playoffs will have one win added to their actual regular-season win total. Other than this small modification, seeding will be done according to the current existing IHSA procedures. This modified win total is not to be used for determining which teams make the playoffs.

***************************************************************************************************************

Explanation

As can be seen, a heavy emphasis has been placed on semifinal appearances over the preceding five playoffs. This has been done for two reasons. First, when determining (systematically) whether or not a team should be moved to a different class level, whether it be due to the multiplier, the success factor, or playing in a weak conference, I believe the emphasis should be on measuring program strength and not whether an individual team is good. If we simply start moving all the good teams to higher class levels, then the playoffs at the lower levels become consolation playoffs. That is not desirable. We should want each class level to be a legitimate playoff between teams of more or less the same program strength. Furthermore, program strength more often than not determines how good the team actually is. Quincy and Hononegah had outstanding seasons relative to their respective program strengths, but their 9-0 records simply do not reflect the same level of ability as the 9-0 record of Lincoln-Way East. They deserve to compete at the 7A level rather than move up to 8A because their program strengths are at a 7A level. Mt. Carmel's program strength, on the other hand, is at an 8A level. Mt. Carmel is certainly one of the top five programs in the state.

A second reason for emphasizing semifinal appearances over the preceding five playoffs is simply because it is a very effective measure. There is a strong correlation between such appearances and having success in a current year's playoff. Sports handicapping is a hobby of mine and I have done a considerable number of studies regarding this particular relationship. The consistent outcome is that close to 85% of state football champions in any given year were also semifinalists at least once in the preceding five years. As just one example I looked at a sample of 50 teams. These were the 19 8A champions from 2003 through 2022, the 19 7A champions from 2003 through 2022, and the 12 6A champions from 2010 through 2022. [I was looking to create a sample of 50 outcomes and don't like to go back more than 20 years because the value of statistics depreciates with time. Also, of course, there were no playoffs in 2020.] The result was that 42 of these 50 champions (84%) had been a semifinalist at least once during the preceding five playoffs. This is a strong correlation. Reducing the time period being measured to two years, as the IHSA currently does, reduces the correlation to about 70%.

Consistently applying the criteria set forth above to all eight classes would have resulted in 29 teams being removed from the playoffs entirely. Those teams went a combined 2-27 in the first round. The two teams that won their first-round game lost in the second round by 35 points and 24 points. Of the 27 teams that lost in the first round, 11 of them lost by 40 or more points. Only three of them lost by fewer than 10 points. It is my contention that removing these teams from the playoffs, along with the new success factor, and dropping teams from weak conferences down a class level, would have made the playoffs more competitive. This would have been done while still making sure there was room to include every team in the state with a record of 7-2 or better.

Any questions or comments will be welcome.
The above January 6, 2024 post provides a comprehensive playoff proposal that improves competitive balance within the eight playoff brackets. In light of the current discussions on this message board, it might be worth another look.

The proposal is comprehensive in that it addresses all of the following issues better than the current format:
1) It addresses competitive balance within the brackets.
2) It reduces the number of blowouts, particularly in the first round.
3) It makes seeding within the brackets more accurate by making the seeds a better reflection of team ability.
4) It introduces a success factor for the public high schools, thereby addressing a major concern of the private schools.
5) It introduces 1-32 seeding for all class levels.

Additionally, I should emphasize that although it may be difficult to pass in a vote of IHSA members, I am not opposed to using an identical success factor for both public and private schools. The proposal above was merely trying to be realistic in that regard.
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Football Enrollment

Same thing happened to Montini, had few off years, regrouped, and find themselves in 3A.
I agree, multipliers and waivers is a solid start but could be improved on. One of my concerns is publics still only have one very outdated requirement, school size. I think that worked back in the day but I know longer feel it's a true metric any longer. Again I think school size should be in equation, but also feel it could and should be improved on.
Enrollment is a pretty good indicator for publics. There are outliers but not many.

Football Enrollment

Same thing happened to Montini, had few off years, regrouped, and find themselves in 3A.
I agree, multipliers and waivers is a solid start but could be improved on. One of my concerns is publics still only have one very outdated requirement, school size. I think that worked back in the day but I know longer feel it's a true metric any longer. Again I think school size should be in equation, but also feel it could and should be improved on.
Ok but if we forget about privates for a second, what's the difference between Morton Berwyn and Lyons township as far as how to classify them other than enrollment? I'm sorry but are you going to suggest that Morton we a lower classification because of demographics despite having (off the top of my head) similar enrollments? There are so many other factors that differentiate the two schools that attempting to account for would be totally misdirected imo.

Football Enrollment

Same thing happened to Montini, had few off years, regrouped, and find themselves in 3A.
I agree, multipliers and waivers is a solid start but could be improved on. One of my concerns is publics still only have one very outdated requirement, school size. I think that worked back in the day but I know longer feel it's a true metric any longer. Again I think school size should be in equation, but also feel it could and should be improved on.

The movie that never was...A Marist 8A State Championship

Cheer up LWE! For what its worth. A great story was in the making this year only to be dashed by a common foe...Loyola. Marist should've beaten Loyola, if for no other reason, because I don't have a storyline if that doesn't happen. Then Marist gets revenge on Maine South after MS upset a far more talented Marist team a few years ago. Then LWE transfer QB Ritter returns home to beat his former school in a triumphant last minute running TD and is carried off the field by friend and foe. And then Marist finds itself back in the State Championship against York. First year Marist HC Fitz and Marist win handily and our curse is finally put to bed.

A guy can dream. Happy Thanksgiving everyone and best of luck to those still in the dance.

Football Enrollment

I’ve already read about some convoluted proposals out there with regards to neighborhood schools and average of said schools.
The bottom line is that the multiplier and waiver system is pretty solid, but I think the waiver should be harder to get to. I also think it shouldn’t have anything to do with the regular season.
IC for example was a favorite to win it all in 4A 2 years ago. They got upset by another CCL team in the quarterfinals, and this year didn’t make it because of their crazy hard schedule. Nothing about what they’ve done in the past decade has shown that they aren’t competitive in 4A, but if they achieve 5 win seasons in the next 2 years they have a cake walk to to 2A title.
Bingo

Football Enrollment

Why do you say that? Because there's more private schools favored to win? Privates won 6 titles, I believe, in 2022 but I don't recall any serious proposals for change.
I’ve already read about some convoluted proposals out there with regards to neighborhood schools and average of said schools.
The bottom line is that the multiplier and waiver system is pretty solid, but I think the waiver should be harder to get to. I also think it shouldn’t have anything to do with the regular season.
IC for example was a favorite to win it all in 4A 2 years ago. They got upset by another CCL team in the quarterfinals, and this year didn’t make it because of their crazy hard schedule. Nothing about what they’ve done in the past decade has shown that they aren’t competitive in 4A, but if they achieve 5 win seasons in the next 2 years they have a cake walk to to 2A title.
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