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If separation happened how would it work?

What about 3 classes of Privates? Playoffs are 16 teams in each class . Quick class breakdown (didn't double check numbers) makes for some pretty good playoff games. Classes can change depending on who wants to play up or down. I would think Naz and JCA could substitute for St. Ignatius and Marian Catholic in 3A. Still can schedule publics in the regular season to have some other matchups.

3A
Brother Rice
Marist
Mount Carmel
Notre Dame
St. Pats
St. Rita
Marian Catholic
Benet
Montini
Carmel
Providence
Fenwick
Boylan
SHG
Loyola
St. Ignatius



2A
St. Viator
Belleville Althoff
Bloomington Central Catholic
Bishop Mac
Peoria ND
Quincy ND
Rock Island Alleman
Wheaton Academy
St. Joes
St. Francis
Marian Central
Naz
Marmion
JCA
St. Laurence
IC Catholic


1A, everyone else.
 
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Lots of focus on B Mac here. How did they do last year and the previous four before that? I can't find it on the web
 
Lots of focus on B Mac here. How did they do last year and the previous four before that? I can't find it on the web
I think playoffs 4 out of the last 5 years. One quarterfinal before this year.
 
Snoozefest, can we get @JCHILLTOPPERS to resurface the data that shows it'll still be the same primary schools, both public and private, that will compete for championships. Separation doesn't solve the underlying issue of competitive balance.
ive already debunked JCHills post over and over again. Separation addresses the issue of comparing apples and oranges.
 
What about 3 classes of Privates? Playoffs are 16 teams in each class . Quick class breakdown (didn't double check numbers) makes for some pretty good playoff games. Classes can change depending on who wants to play up or down. I would think Naz and JCA could substitute for St. Ignatius and Marian Catholic in 3A. Still can schedule publics in the regular season to have some other matchups.

3A
Brother Rice
Marist
Mount Carmel
Notre Dame
St. Pats
St. Rita
Marian Catholic
Benet
Montini
Carmel
Providence
Fenwick
Boylan
SHG
Loyola
St. Ignatius



2A
St. Viator
Belleville Althoff
Bloomington Central Catholic
Bishop Mac
Peoria ND
Quincy ND
Rock Island Alleman
Wheaton Academy
St. Joes
St. Francis
Marian Central
Naz
Marmion
JCA
St. Laurence
IC Catholic


1A, everyone else.

Your head is in the right directions, but a couple things. Montini has less students than naz, 2nd each class only has 16 teams I'm afraid to even look how bad the 16 would be, then the next biggest problem would be the talent drop off and enrollment drop off. If you look at that 2A class you basically will have a JCA/Naz/Montini rotating state championships, BUT let's say you all those teams with the big boys in 3A, is it fair that they play MC with 4x as many boys than JCA?

I take the latter, just put SHG/Naz/Montini/JCA either all in lower class or just have them all play with the big boys. Worse thing would be to have Montini/Naz play up then, have only JCA/SHG fighting it out.
 
Well Libertyville had 3 d1 kids and didn't win a title. HF has as many as 7 they didn't win a title. Stevenson has 3 this year didn't win a title. Warren has two - a running back and a hybrid RB/WR they didn't win a title.

Naperville Central had several at skill positions and didn't win a title.

I could keep going........Oh and those are all boundary schools too.

Newt,

It's a private but CoM has 3 D I players and has made the playoffs once in 3 years.
 
That's exactly to my point. This whole gotta have D1 kids to win a title thing is a bit overblown.

Agree but let's not act like it doesn't help. Teams that are winning state have D1 kids and usually have more than others.

Montini has at least 10 guys playing in FCS/FBS. Off the top of my head, Jaleel Johnson, Westerkamp, Thompson, Maduko, Borsellino, I'm some on here could name at least 5 more.
 
Your head is in the right directions, but a couple things. Montini has less students than naz, 2nd each class only has 16 teams I'm afraid to even look how bad the 16 would be, then the next biggest problem would be the talent drop off and enrollment drop off. If you look at that 2A class you basically will have a JCA/Naz/Montini rotating state championships, BUT let's say you all those teams with the big boys in 3A, is it fair that they play MC with 4x as many boys than JCA?

I take the latter, just put SHG/Naz/Montini/JCA either all in lower class or just have them all play with the big boys. Worse thing would be to have Montini/Naz play up then, have only JCA/SHG fighting it out.


I'm sure JCA, Montini, Naz, and JCA could find a way to compete there. If they have similar numbers ON THE TEAM then there would be no issues.
 
I like the fact that 2 of the 5 you list are legacy students.

Agree but let's not act like it doesn't help. Teams that are winning state have D1 kids and usually have more than others.

Montini has at least 10 guys playing in FCS/FBS. Off the top of my head, Jaleel Johnson, Westerkamp, Thompson, Maduko, Borsellino, I'm some on here could name at least 5 more.
 
In 7and 8A certainly. But when you get down to 3A schools with 40 man rosters that can include underclassmen and plenty of two way players, a couple of game changers will make a huge difference
 
Bishop Mac (319 students) was prepared when they reached the playoffs this year. Look at their schedule and the sizes of the schools they played:

Actual Enrollment (doubled if all boys)

IC - 312
Plainfield North - 2231
Leo - 244
Aurora Christian - 288
St. L - 992
Providence - 1073
St. Ignatius - 1393
DLS - 995

Average size of the school they played is 3 times its size - 941

Herscher (enrollment of 600) played schools with an average size of 585.
this is why we need football enrollment back
 
First it doesn't matter, a state title won 30 years ago doesn't really have much weight in the debate of leveling out the playing field in 2015.

But if you insist,

Caramel 1 & LVille 1, both have 1, Caramel in 03, LVille 04

GW 3 & Montini 5,
But can you honestly say GW in recent years has been less of a successful program, we know how much harder it is to win 7/8A compared to 5A. Impossible?No, but you put Montini in 7A they probably scrape 1- maybe 2 state titles.
Does that really scream unfair? Complete disadvantage? Completely unfair playing field?

MCC says on their wikipage that they won 4 in the 80's and CG has 1, but was a runner up 3 times since 04. And does MCC winning 4 titles in the 80s really have anything to do with today? Can you honestly say CG is a lesser program than MCC? That they are at a complete disadvantage and have no way what so ever of ever being able to compete with MCC?

This is where I get confused, when programs like LVille, GW, and CG can be successful and just as successful as their private counter parts, but still at a complete disadvantage? And schools like Leo, Marian, St. Joes, Eds are only bad because they want to be?

Players choose schools because of the coach, get a great coach I guarantee that program will see success

LakeCtyNewt said it best, get better coach better

The one thing I can sympathize with you on are the 3A-1A schools, Football at that level is awful. If a kid can put his pants on right and learn how to put a helmet on, you can find yourself in the quarterfinals. These schools can barely field a squad let a lone have decent players to play at set positions.

We all know 6 classes 1-32 seading is the best, but another idea is keep the multiplier, get rid of SF, and the lowest class you can go is 5A if you are a private. BMac doesnt win state but they for sure can compete at 5A, same with IC. 5A is awful and makes 5A more competitive. Im pretty sure BMac and IC can compete with Solorio Academy and Jacksonville HS.

You bring up 3 schools that have a combined 4 state titles and say "See, public schools can do it too.."

I can do the same thing, bring up 3 private schools that have a combined 35-40 state titles...
 
In 7and 8A certainly. But when you get down to 3A schools with 40 man rosters that can include underclassmen and plenty of two way players, a couple of game changers will make a huge difference

And we saw that this year... 3A-6A is where the problem is.. in 1A and 2A, not that many open enrollment schools.. and the ones that are there, fewer than 200 kids and hard to have football (see Schlarmann)... in 7A and 8A, big schools where the overall talent is better, 4-5 studs won't automatically win games..
 
i
Your head is in the right directions, but a couple things. Montini has less students than naz, 2nd each class only has 16 teams I'm afraid to even look how bad the 16 would be, then the next biggest problem would be the talent drop off and enrollment drop off. If you look at that 2A class you basically will have a JCA/Naz/Montini rotating state championships, BUT let's say you all those teams with the big boys in 3A, is it fair that they play MC with 4x as many boys than JCA?

I take the latter, just put SHG/Naz/Montini/JCA either all in lower class or just have them all play with the big boys. Worse thing would be to have Montini/Naz play up then, have only JCA/SHG fighting it out.
MC does not have 4 times as many boys as JC. What happens is the enrollment gets doubled being all boys for football. MC probly is under 700 for the entire school.
 
You bring up 3 schools that have a combined 4 state titles and say "See, public schools can do it too.."

I can do the same thing, bring up 3 private schools that have a combined 35-40 state titles...

Ok so if we are goin to be selective shall we name public schools with great success - Maine South, East St Louis, Lincoln Way East, Wheaton South, Stevenson, Rochester, Stockton - shall I go on?
 
ive already debunked JCHills post over and over again. Separation addresses the issue of comparing apples and oranges.

I don' recall the finer points of your rebuttal. Respectively, have no comment.

My anti-separation view is really due to seeing this as a competitive in-balance (specifically in classes 4-6) rather than public vs private. There's only been 4 7A private and 2 8A private champions since 2001. Find a way to get the 5/6A dominate privates up to 7/8A and doesn't appear to be any more in-balance.
 
You bring up 3 schools that have a combined 4 state titles and say "See, public schools can do it too.."

I can do the same thing, bring up 3 private schools that have a combined 35-40 state titles...

Jeez you are unbelievable. You never explain yourself, cherry pick statements, then make up facts, then you contradict your own statements.

First YOU ask how many state titles those teams have?
I present you the facts. (Its not like I picked Marian,Leo, etc, I pick CoM, the most successful private school in the last decade in Montini, and MCC)
You: completely ignore them.

I present the argument its not really a public vs private more of a "haves vs have nots" that student choose programs based on the coach's reputation and past success.
YOU respond with well BMacs coaches suck..so um your wrong. Then make up some stats of BMac having 5 D1 players. (Also its not mutually exclusive that a good coach = coach's reputation)

I agree with you that private/non-boundary schools should be at least in 5A because 3A football sucks.
You: completely ignore

Then you argue its because of a lack of D1 players
other poster prove D1 players do not guarantee a title.

Then you argue this gem, "They have one football state title in close to 30 years... in those years, we have pounded them pretty good across the board in athletics.."
WHICH BASICALLY DISPROVES YOUR ENTIRE POINT. So for the last 30 years HHS has been so much more dominant but BMac has the advantage? But you still cry saying its still not fair.
You: Ignore how badly you contradicted yourself.

Then you say, "I can do the same thing, bring up 3 private schools that have a combined 35-40 state titles..."
WTF, that goes back to my original statement about the haves vs have nots. Yeah go ahead and cherry pick MC,PC, SHG and yeah you get 35 (the haves) then you have some other 70 private schools that dont win.

Before you respond with a 1 liner that proves nothin or that has no explanation, let me be clear.

1) 3A football sucks, its awful, BMac and other privates should be in at least 5A
2) At the 7A/8A levels it is not an uneven playing field at all, since schools like LVille,GW, and CG are all successful and they still have these big bad powerhouse Catholic schools in their backyard stealing all their players.
3) I AM SAYING PUBLIC SCHOOLS CAN DO IT TOO! Its proven with LVille,GW, and CG. Sorry this inst AYSO soccer and everyone gets a trophy, winning state should not be easy. Stop being so soft, does GW make excuses for Montini being less than 6 miles away?
 
Ok so if we are goin to be selective shall we name public schools with great success - Maine South, East St Louis, Lincoln Way East, Wheaton South, Stevenson, Rochester, Stockton - shall I go on?

You are brining up schools that have won 3-5 state titles and trying to compare them to schools that have won 10 or more???
 
You are brining up schools that have won 3-5 state titles and trying to compare them to schools that have won 10 or more???

JCA and MC have won 10 plus.

Wheaton S ESL and Maine south all with 5 plus

The other private schools with 10 plus would be who?

Public schools can compete. They have competed. They continue to compete.

If you are ONLY measuring success based on state titles alone then theirs a lot Of bad football public and private alike.

Like I've said before and you have no confront since you've never coached or walked a sideline - great coaches can make great programs.

Not all the great coaches coach private schools.

Is winning a state title all that matters or are you measuring in sustained success as well?
 
Jeez you are unbelievable. You never explain yourself, cherry pick statements, then make up facts, then you contradict your own statements.

Welcome to my former world until I discovered the ignore option. It's nice reading threads that I know he is posting his usual claptrap in, but I don't have to read it. Better yet, I don't get drawn into it.
 
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JCA and MC have won 10 plus.

Wheaton S ESL and Maine south all with 5 plus

The other private schools with 10 plus would be who?

Public schools can compete. They have competed. They continue to compete.

If you are ONLY measuring success based on state titles alone then theirs a lot Of bad football public and private alike.

Like I've said before and you have no confront since you've never coached or walked a sideline - great coaches can make great programs.

Not all the great coaches coach private schools.

Is winning a state title all that matters or are you measuring in sustained success as well?

All.... Fwiw (he has no real point (surprise)) but NLP won their tenth title last year. Ratsy
 
JCA and MC have won 10 plus.

Wheaton S ESL and Maine south all with 5 plus

The other private schools with 10 plus would be who?

Public schools can compete. They have competed. They continue to compete.

If you are ONLY measuring success based on state titles alone then theirs a lot Of bad football public and private alike.

Like I've said before and you have no confront since you've never coached or walked a sideline - great coaches can make great programs.

Not all the great coaches coach private schools.

Is winning a state title all that matters or are you measuring in sustained success as well?

Actually, I ran a youth league for 9 years...

Sure public schools can compete, just not againt the power programs... Right now, which public schools are able to compete with the mid class private schools???
 
Actually, I ran a youth league for 9 years...

Sure public schools can compete, just not againt the power programs... Right now, which public schools are able to compete with the mid class private schools???
All 4a-6a teams that have competed recently Rochester, Philips, Cary, PR, Crete, Hinsdale South, Batavia, Morris,
 
Actually, I ran a youth league for 9 years...

Sure public schools can compete, just not againt the power programs... Right now, which public schools are able to compete with the mid class private schools???

All 4a-6a teams that have competed recently Rochester, Philips, Cary, PR, Crete, Hinsdale South, Batavia, Morris,

Further @HHSTigerFan , can we agree to call a spade a spade, it's not all mid class private schools that we're talking about. It's specifically, JCA, Montini, SHG, and recently NAZ. The St Laurences, MCC, Marmions, etc, etc, are pretty much competitively matched with all the mid class publics.
 
JCA and MC have won 10 plus.

Wheaton S ESL and Maine south all with 5 plus

The other private schools with 10 plus would be who?

Public schools can compete. They have competed. They continue to compete.


<snip>

I think Providence Catholic has at least 10, iirc first was in '87

But I agree, I don't think the system is broken, this year was just an anomaly
 
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Actually, I ran a youth league for 9 years...

Sure public schools can compete, just not againt the power programs... Right now, which public schools are able to compete with the mid class private schools???

Running a youth program isn't the same as coaching. Sorry I've done and continue to do both.
 
small town programs, guys that run it also coach.. also walked a high school sideline for many years..

And yes, problem is about 10 programs ..and no idea what the solution is..
 
small town programs, guys that run it also coach.. also walked a high school sideline for many years..

And yes, problem is about 10 programs ..and no idea what the solution is..

If youve coached like you said then pull your panties up, toughen up and get better. Find ways to make the Herscher program more attractive. Get better coaches, develop a solid feeder program and ultimately win more games. Stop with the Bobby Brady everyone gets a trophy whoa is me crap.

Life's not fair pal grow a set and stop with the pussification of our sport. You wanna shut up the private school flow, beat their butts instead of being a whiney beotch about it.
 
All.... Well it didn't take long. Coach Nat Zunkel from Aledo is putting together a proposal (a by-law amendment) to the IHSA to separate the privates and the publics in football for the playoffs. Sigh.... Ratsy
 
All.... Well it didn't take long. Coach Nat Zunkel from Aledo is putting together a proposal (a by-law amendment) to the IHSA to separate the privates and the publics in football for the playoffs. Sigh.... Ratsy
Can't imagine it would be football only.

I'm guessing the initial proposal will not fly. But, separation will happen within 3-5 years.
 
All.... Well it didn't take long. Coach Nat Zunkel from Aledo is putting together a proposal (a by-law amendment) to the IHSA to separate the privates and the publics in football for the playoffs. Sigh.... Ratsy
Do you know if it is strictly public and private separation or boundaried vs nonboundaried separation. If the former, and if it passes, I say the private schools should tell the IHSA to shove it. There is NO REASON for private schools to have their state series sports governed by an organization that has gone out of its way to discriminate against them and in which private schools have a minority voice.
 
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So when they do split it up whose fault will it be then that Mercer County and Herscher aren't winning state titles?

This is just dumb. Shame on the mercer coach for being weak stock
 
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If youve coached like you said then pull your panties up, toughen up and get better. Find ways to make the Herscher program more attractive. Get better coaches, develop a solid feeder program and ultimately win more games. Stop with the Bobby Brady everyone gets a trophy whoa is me crap.

Life's not fair pal grow a set and stop with the pussification of our sport. You wanna shut up the private school flow, beat their butts instead of being a whiney beotch about it.

Life isn't fair, sports should be... which is why we have a class system

We play with what the bus drops off, just like every other closed boundary school...

make them program more attractive??? We aren't an open boundary school, we play with what we have..

You are just clueless..
 
So when they do split it up whose fault will it be then that Mercer County and Herscher aren't winning state titles?

This is just dumb. Shame on the mercer coach for being weak stock

So lets say NCAA decides to make a change.. all state schools can only recruit kids from their own state, all private schools are allowed to recruit the entire nation... Notre Dame would be laughing, Michigan would be pissed.. and guys like you would be saying Michigan needs to shut up???
 
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Life isn't fair, sports should be... which is why we have a class system

We play with what the bus drops off, just like every other closed boundary school...

make them program more attractive??? We aren't an open boundary school, we play with what we have..

You are just clueless..
Sports are fair, the same rules on the field apply to both teams, the same weather conditions, referees, etc. Should we penalize the Patriots for drafting Tom Brady and all the success they've had the past decade? Surely it's not fair to the rest of the NFL that one team can continuously dominate.

What message are we sending to our kids? There's a harsh reality in life, some people will always be better than you at certain things. Realize this, accept it, and try to better yourself or move on.
 
So lets say NCAA decides to make a change.. all state schools can only recruit kids from their own state, all private schools are allowed to recruit the entire nation... Notre Dame would be laughing, Michigan would be pissed.. and guys like you would be saying Michigan needs to shut up???

First off never happen. But alright if you wanna go there Florida State, Miami Fl would love that too.

Whose fault will it be when Herscher doesn't win state titles when the big bad private schools
Go away?
 
All.... Well it didn't take long. Coach Nat Zunkel from Aledo is putting together a proposal (a by-law amendment) to the IHSA to separate the privates and the publics in football for the playoffs. Sigh.... Ratsy

Whiner, and it's not like he has been in a bad spot.

Boys Football
Season Class Titles Place Won Lost Tied Coach
2009-10 2A Q 8 3 Nat Zunkel
2010-11 2A Q 9 2 Nat Zunkel
2011-12 2A Q 11 1 Nat Zunkel
2012-13 2A Q 1 14 0 Nat Zunkel
2013-14 2A Q 11 2 Nat Zunkel
2014-15 2A Q 7 3 Nat Zunkel
2015-16 5 5 Nat Zunkel
 
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