The IHSA has done everything it can do to limit private school success, so I see separation as inevitable. What I am asking how do other states do it? Would they be able to play non-con? Based on states who already do seperation, how many classes do they have? Would that work in IL or would you end up with 2 playoff rounds of MC vs Leo/St. Joes?
If separation happened how would it work?
- Thread starter WestSuburbanCatholicConference
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In all honesty I hate the thought of separation, but I think that system would make the least amount of people upset. Would it allow for non-conference games? In a 2 system private class, basically all private schools would make the post season. If everyone(most) made the post season there would be no worries about getting in and scheduling cupcakes. We could see more competitive private vs public school regular season matchups BUT maybe see the exact opposite if publics were still worried about making "their" playoffs, why schedule MC if that might keep you out of the postseason. Then my other worry would be that privates would become way too top heavy, you would have the upper of the CCL and ESCC then a huge drop off, and have running clocks by the end of the first quarter.
Im too lazy, can someone do a hypothetical bracket for the 2 private classes?
Separation = Weakness
Isn't Illinois football weak enough compared to Ohio, Texas, Pennsylvania and other states?
Leave it alone. 6 classes, 1-32 seeding.
Wassup
Isn't Illinois football weak enough compared to Ohio, Texas, Pennsylvania and other states?
Leave it alone. 6 classes, 1-32 seeding.
Wassup
It wouldn't ever happen because the IHSA wouldn't do it only for football. It would have to be all sports.
I don't see it working and would not be in favor of it ever.
Work hard play hard play better coach better. There's your solution
I don't see it working and would not be in favor of it ever.
Work hard play hard play better coach better. There's your solution
Let's also remember 4 public schools and 4 private schools won state championships this year.
I think the number of blowouts this year was a fluke because in the past recent years we have had great state title games.
Though if you want it to be better, go 6 classes, 1-32 seeding.
Wassup
I think the number of blowouts this year was a fluke because in the past recent years we have had great state title games.
Though if you want it to be better, go 6 classes, 1-32 seeding.
Wassup
100% true, Look at LVille, GW, and CG. All have private schools in their backyards and they find a way to succeed. GW has Montini less than 6 miles away.
But it would be naive to think the IHSA isn't going to do something..
The CPS would actually have a better chance in the open boundary then in the closed boundary - especially if the charter network schools (e.g. AUSL) are defined as open boundary. The true academic selective enrollment schools e.g. Whitney Young and Payton would be sac-lambs in the OB, at least initially. Also what of nominally "Career Prep/Vocational" schools such as Simeon, Dunbar and CVS? According to http://cps.edu/ScriptLibrary/Map-SchoolLocator2015/index.html , the address of 8300 S Stewart, straight back of Simeon, gets you zoned to Hirsch High School. Simeon is technically open-enrollment and not considered (despite its surroundings) to be a school of last resort - there are nominal programs not available at the "neighborhood" schools that persons not residing in West Chatham can enroll for.
HHS...were there 64 privates that made the 256 team field??? My quick guess is that it was somewhere at 40 privates made it. Simple question... Are you OK with 5-4 boundary schools sitting at home and not making the playoffs??? Under your 6 boundary-2 non boundary situation, some 5-4 boundary schools will get left out while 4-5 non boundary are still playing.
6 titles among those three
4 private schools won state titles, 5 made it there. Out of 40 plus private schools in the playoffs that's a very small percentage.
Again - get better coach better
4 private schools won state titles, 5 made it there. Out of 40 plus private schools in the playoffs that's a very small percentage.
Again - get better coach better
First it doesn't matter, a state title won 30 years ago doesn't really have much weight in the debate of leveling out the playing field in 2015.
But if you insist,
Caramel 1 & LVille 1, both have 1, Caramel in 03, LVille 04
GW 3 & Montini 5,
But can you honestly say GW in recent years has been less of a successful program, we know how much harder it is to win 7/8A compared to 5A. Impossible?No, but you put Montini in 7A they probably scrape 1- maybe 2 state titles.
Does that really scream unfair? Complete disadvantage? Completely unfair playing field?
MCC says on their wikipage that they won 4 in the 80's and CG has 1, but was a runner up 3 times since 04. And does MCC winning 4 titles in the 80s really have anything to do with today? Can you honestly say CG is a lesser program than MCC? That they are at a complete disadvantage and have no way what so ever of ever being able to compete with MCC?
This is where I get confused, when programs like LVille, GW, and CG can be successful and just as successful as their private counter parts, but still at a complete disadvantage? And schools like Leo, Marian, St. Joes, Eds are only bad because they want to be?
Players choose schools because of the coach, get a great coach I guarantee that program will see success
LakeCtyNewt said it best, get better coach better
The one thing I can sympathize with you on are the 3A-1A schools, Football at that level is awful. If a kid can put his pants on right and learn how to put a helmet on, you can find yourself in the quarterfinals. These schools can barely field a squad let a lone have decent players to play at set positions.
We all know 6 classes 1-32 seading is the best, but another idea is keep the multiplier, get rid of SF, and the lowest class you can go is 5A if you are a private. BMac doesnt win state but they for sure can compete at 5A, same with IC. 5A is awful and makes 5A more competitive. Im pretty sure BMac and IC can compete with Solorio Academy and Jacksonville HS.
Just curious, when the 6 class "boundary" approach results in the same schools winning just about every year (the public school "haves" will have a field day in this format), what will the IHSA do next to level the playing field?
Sorry, not buying the coaching argument,,, the coaches at Bishop Mac are average at best, last year they went out to Herscher and were completely out coached... put 4-5 DI kids on a 3A football field and you get a 50-7 score in a state final game..
@Capt Morgan introduces the next elephant in the room. One that @JCHILLTOPPERS has already provided actual data on. The problem is less public vs private and more haves (in terms of current program prestige) vs have nots. Remove the privates, and specific, select publics replace them as the dominant class.
5 boundaried classes of 32 by enrollment
2 open boundaried classes of 16 by whatever metric makes sense to open enrollment schools
Schedule who you want in the reg season, same as right now
2 open boundaried classes of 16 by whatever metric makes sense to open enrollment schools
Schedule who you want in the reg season, same as right now
Only 160 of about 500 public schools making the playoffs? I can't envision the smaller "downstate" schools going for this approach, but you never know.
You totally disregard your original question of how many state titles do they have?
And you go into your personal grip against BMac.
I think I reasonably stated a solution of having things be the same w/ the multiplier, eliminate the success factor, and the lowest class a private school can compete in is 5A. I agree 3A-1A is god awful, and fielding a team at that level is a success in itself. BMac doesnt have 5 d-1 recruits and their best player the RB, is going to a mac school with 1 offer. So lets not exaggerate here. But at the 5A/6A level you will see both your privates and publics teams all have 1-3 D1/FBS/d2 talent.
Yes 6 classes 1-32 seeding is the best. But I see this as the only ACTUAL solution.
Bishop Mac (319 students) was prepared when they reached the playoffs this year. Look at their schedule and the sizes of the schools they played:
Actual Enrollment (doubled if all boys)
IC - 312
Plainfield North - 2231
Leo - 244
Aurora Christian - 288
St. L - 992
Providence - 1073
St. Ignatius - 1393
DLS - 995
Average size of the school they played is 3 times its size - 941
Herscher (enrollment of 600) played schools with an average size of 585.
Actual Enrollment (doubled if all boys)
IC - 312
Plainfield North - 2231
Leo - 244
Aurora Christian - 288
St. L - 992
Providence - 1073
St. Ignatius - 1393
DLS - 995
Average size of the school they played is 3 times its size - 941
Herscher (enrollment of 600) played schools with an average size of 585.
The only separation that's needed is to separate those teams that wish to compete against the highest level of competition from those that wish to lord over lesser foes. Why punish the publics by removing the privates from their classes and force the masses to question the authenticity of their championship or vis versa.
The world is not fair, encouraging mediocrity does nothing for these young men and women after they leave the high school walls.
The world is not fair, encouraging mediocrity does nothing for these young men and women after they leave the high school walls.
If two were running backs and one was reciever, yes, especially if could drop down to 3A..
They are a school of 300 kids.... even if they have 3 or 4 D1 kids, how many other schools that size can say the same?? The I-8 is a pretty good small school football conference where the schools on average are twice the size of Mac.. Thats 24X the enrollment of Mac... And I am not sure they have had that many D1 football kids combined over the last 10 years...
2014
BM qualified for the playoffs.
Herscher qualified for the playoffs.
Herscher beat BM in the playoffs.
2015
BM qualified for the playoffs.
Herscher qualified for the playoffs.
Herscher lost in the first round.
BM won a state championship.
I would take one state championship every two years over beating a local rival one time every two years.
BM qualified for the playoffs.
Herscher qualified for the playoffs.
Herscher beat BM in the playoffs.
2015
BM qualified for the playoffs.
Herscher qualified for the playoffs.
Herscher lost in the first round.
BM won a state championship.
I would take one state championship every two years over beating a local rival one time every two years.
I must have missed Macs state titles in 2013, 2011, 2009 etc....
They have one football state title in close to 30 years... in those years, we have pounded them pretty good across the board in athletics..
8A/7A are pretty fair and it isnt going to get much more fair, the problem is the Montini and Naz's who have around 800 students
We have ramblinman on one end of the spectrum and you on the other end and no common sense in between.
I basically agreed with you and said schools like BMac and IC should at least be in 5A, because at 1000 students most private/public good teams can find next level talent on their roster example LWW. Like I said 3A football is bad and BMac should be in 5A. BUT if you incorporate a rule to ALL privates, it unfairly punishes those 7A/8A schools who already have it tough enough as is. But if you just want to hate go right on a head.
We have ramblinman on one end of the spectrum and you on the other end and no common sense in between.
I basically agreed with you and said schools like BMac and IC should at least be in 5A, because at 1000 students most private/public good teams can find next level talent on their roster example LWW. Like I said 3A football is bad and BMac should be in 5A. BUT if you incorporate a rule to ALL privates, it unfairly punishes those 7A/8A schools who already have it tough enough as is. But if you just want to hate go right on a head.
Well Libertyville had 3 d1 kids and didn't win a title. HF has as many as 7 they didn't win a title. Stevenson has 3 this year didn't win a title. Warren has two - a running back and a hybrid RB/WR they didn't win a title.
Naperville Central had several at skill positions and didn't win a title.
I could keep going........Oh and those are all boundary schools too.
So then what are you complaining about!!! If your "special" HHS can "pound" them across the board for 30 years in athletics..... QUIT YOUR BITCHING !!!!!!!!
It seems that you have inadvertently disproved the very argument that you're known for on this board. Congrats, a true accomplishment!
Sorry - I thought you asked about last year and this year.
I did a little research and have found that in football Herscher has played in one state championship game - congrats! That is more than most schools.
Herscher has won 1 more state baseball championship (1999) than BM. Congrats.
That's how I would do it. IHSA would probably prefer 6 and 2 all with 32. Perhaps open enrollment publics in the 2 classes... I don't know.
Snoozefest, can we get @JCHILLTOPPERS to resurface the data that shows it'll still be the same primary schools, both public and private, that will compete for championships. Separation doesn't solve the underlying issue of competitive balance.
Nicely done Westsub....this guy is a perpetual motion machine of complaints regarding BMac and private football in general. Good to catch him pontificating falsehoods.
