A Unique Proposal To End The Publics vs. Privates Debate...Who Says No And Why?

[niualum2002]

I've thought about this for a long time based on all the debates on this site and I 100% acknowlege that mentioning this topic is like touching the third rail on this board, so I completely expect to get roasted on this almost equally by both the public and private sides. (Yeah unity lol!)

Having said that, it is the season of giving and I am happy to share what I think could be a very interesting twist on how to handle the Public/Private debate here in Illinois so here I go.

What if as a concession to the continued excellence of the private schools specifically with regards to the CCL/ESCC that it is agreed to grant 20 automatic qualifiers to the Top 20 CCL/ESCC programs? Divide them into 5 divisions with classes ranging from 8A-4A. As automatic qualifiers these schools can schedule Weeks 3-9 games amongst themselves however they want in order to create good competition knowing they will ultimately qualify for the 8A-4A playoffs whether their final record is 2-7 or 9-0.

28 out of 32 teams outside of the CCL/ESCC still qualify for the playoffs in 8A-4A so maybe it knocks out a few 4-5 teams and low playoff point 5-4 teams but for the most part everyone making the playoffs now is still making it.

Here is the part that the public schools would be intrigued by. No matter the record, the Top 2 private schools in each 8A-4A division get a 1-4 seed in the playoffs and the Bottom 2 private schools in each 8A-4A division regardless of record get a 17-20 seed in the playoffs. Why would the public schools like this? Watch as the brackets play out and you will see that it balances the classes a lot better which is what the public schools are asking for in all of these different playoff modification proposals. When you see the matchups there now become plausible scenarios where public schools could sweep 8A-4A and yet private schools could also sweep 8A-4A. Hence your competitive balance. The main advantage though is those brackets will be more competitive which is what everyone wants.

We are going to exempt non Chicagoloand area private schools from this so Rockford Boylan and Springfield Sacred-Heart Griffin qualify like anyone else for the playoffs with none of these unique rules. Just no way to include them with travel considerations and honestly they aren't the ones really getting the hate about winning championships from public schools outside of some 4A-5A groaning about SHG once in awhile.

What I propose is that the Top 4 teams in the entire CCL/ESCC would be in a separate 8A Division.

Call it the Blue. In this case I'm putting Loyola, Mt. Carmel, St. Ignatius and Marist in there. Mt. Carmel is the only one that gets bumped up a class from where they are now. Again CCL/ESCC guys could do it differently however they want. Doesn't matter they are all in the playoffs regardless.

7A would be the Green. Brother Rice and St. Rita who already are in 7A would reside there. While it would be the decision of the CCL/ESCC ultimately to set these divisions just for this exercise I'm bumping up Joliet Catholic and Nazareth based off of past success. (This is the part where I expect to get all of the JCA and Naz fans hate lol...good luck to both of your teams this weekend and lets hope for an awesome final. Tons of respect to you both.)

6A would be the White. Providence, Fenwick, Niles Notre Dame and Benet would be here since I'm going mostly off of enrollment.

5A would be the Orange. St. Francis, St. Laurence, Carmel, and St. Patrick would be here.

Finally 4A would be the Purple. IC, Montini, St. Viator, and Marmion would be this division.

Marian, De La Salle, DePaul Prep, Leo, and maybe Aurora Catholic if they join would be in the Red and treated like how they are now with playoff qualification but minus the multiplier and success factor since it is not necessary anymore under this model. They'd be 3A-1A most certainly.

3A-5A is usually the biggest complaint area from the public schools like when an Montini or IC drops down to these classes. Now 3A-1A is wide open to mostly public schools outside of the occasional private school outside of the CCL/ESCC like Chicago Hope or Decatur St. Teresa. But again those types of schools aren't the ones getting the pushback from the public schools for winning state titles.

Remember all 20 of the CCL/ESCC teams in the Blue, Green, White, Orange, and Purple now qualify for the IHSA playoffs regardless of record. They play each other and then when Week 10 comes it is playoff time.

As an example of how this would work here is the new 8A playoff bracket. This is what that would look like under this new model. I'll post 7A-4A separately since it gets more complicated and takes more time to calculate as you go down in classes.

Again I know this is not anything anyone would go for outside of maybe a few of us on this message board to create more competitive matchups, but looking at this 8A bracket the small adjustments made make this quite intriguing for me to see how it plays out the rest of the way from 7A-4A.

Here is my rationale and 8A bracket played out until the Finals based off of my predictions on what would happen. Enjoy or hate. Either way enjoy the long holiday weekend!

CCL/ESCC BLUE (8A) AUTOMATIC QUALIFIERS
LOYOLA (1-2 seed and a 1st round home game)
MT. CARMEL (3-4 seed and a 1st round home game)
ST. IGNATIUS (17-18 seed and a 1st round road game)
MARIST (19-20 and a 1st round road game)

8A Field: Add Mt. Carmel and Marist and drop Edwardsville and Glenbard West based on enrollment

8A:
1st Round: #1 Loyola vs. #32 Plainfield North, #2 LWE vs. #31 Taft, #3 Mt. Carmel vs. #30 Glenbrook South, #4 Barrington vs. #29 West Aurora, #5 York vs. #28 Homewood Flossmoor, #6 Maine South vs. #27 Lockport, #7 South Elgin vs. #26 Lane, #8 Huntley vs. #25 Niles West, #9 Joliet West vs. #24 Oswego, #10 Warren vs. #23 Aurora East, #11 Belleville East vs. #22 Lyons, #12 Stevenson vs. #21 Naperville North, #13 Naperville Central vs. #20 Marist, #14 Minooka vs. #19 St. Ignatius, #15 Neuqua Valley vs. #18 Downers Grove South, #16 Palatine vs. #17 Sandburg

2nd Round: #1 Loyola vs. #16 Palatine, #8 Huntley vs. #24 Oswego, #4 Barrington vs. #20 Marist, #5 York vs. #21 Naperville North, #2 Lincoln-Way East vs. #15 Neuqua Valley, #7 South Elgin vs. #10 Warren, #3 Mt. Carmel vs. #19 St. Ignatius, #6 Maine South vs. #22 Lyons

Quarterfinals: #1 Loyola vs. #8 Huntley, #4 Barrington vs. #5 York, #2 Lincoln Way East vs. #10 Warren, #3 Mt. Carmel vs. #6 Maine South

Semifinals: #1 Loyola vs. #5 York, #2 Lincoln Way East vs. #3 Mt. Carmel

Finals: #1 Loyola vs. #2 Lincoln Way East

That Lincoln-Way East-Mt. Carmel semifinal would be absolutely epic by the way. I took LWE here just because I'm trying to show how this model would almost certainly create 8A-4A public vs. private finals which I think would be so much fun to watch and ultimately create a put up or shut up scenario that would absolutely light this message board on fire even more so than it already is during Finals Week

I'll work on sharing 7A-4A as I go through the rest of the adjustments here later. Enjoy!

 

[4Afan]

Almost made it 3 paragraphs in, well done. Had to stop wasting my time when you said automatic qualifiers and 2-7 teams getting in.

 

[niualum2002]

Almost made it 3 paragraphs in, well done. Had to stop wasting my time when you said automatic qualifiers and 2-7 teams getting in.

LOL I knew that would upset some. But what is interesting is from a Power Rankings standpoint as what some are talking about on the Open Class threads, it actually balances itself out somewhat.

 

[4Afan]

LOL I knew that would upset some. But what is interesting is from a Power Rankings standpoint as what some are talking about on the Open Class threads, it actually balances itself out somewhat.

Not upset at all because it's so stupid. Giving any one conference exceptions is just dumb. No scenario justifies depaul or Leo getting in. Be better.

 

[Alexander32]

I've thought about this for a long time based on all the debates on this site and I 100% acknowlege that mentioning this topic is like touching the third rail on this board, so I completely expect to get roasted on this almost equally by both the public and private sides. (Yeah unity lol!)

Having said that, it is the season of giving and I am happy to share what I think could be a very interesting twist on how to handle the Public/Private debate here in Illinois so here I go.

What if as a concession to the continued excellence of the private schools specifically with regards to the CCL/ESCC that it is agreed to grant 20 automatic qualifiers to the Top 20 CCL/ESCC programs? Divide them into 5 divisions with classes ranging from 8A-4A. As automatic qualifiers these schools can schedule Weeks 3-9 games amongst themselves however they want in order to create good competition knowing they will ultimately qualify for the 8A-4A playoffs whether their final record is 2-7 or 9-0.

28 out of 32 teams outside of the CCL/ESCC still qualify for the playoffs in 8A-4A so maybe it knocks out a few 4-5 teams and low playoff point 5-4 teams but for the most part everyone making the playoffs now is still making it.

Here is the part that the public schools would be intrigued by. No matter the record, the Top 2 private schools in each 8A-4A division get a 1-4 seed in the playoffs and the Bottom 2 private schools in each 8A-4A division regardless of record get a 17-20 seed in the playoffs. Why would the public schools like this? Watch as the brackets play out and you will see that it balances the classes a lot better which is what the public schools are asking for in all of these different playoff modification proposals. When you see the matchups there now become plausible scenarios where public schools could sweep 8A-4A and yet private schools could also sweep 8A-4A. Hence your competitive balance. The main advantage though is those brackets will be more competitive which is what everyone wants.

We are going to exempt non Chicagoloand area private schools from this so Rockford Boylan and Springfield Sacred-Heart Griffin qualify like anyone else for the playoffs with none of these unique rules. Just no way to include them with travel considerations and honestly they aren't the ones really getting the hate about winning championships from public schools outside of some 4A-5A groaning about SHG once in awhile.

What I propose is that the Top 4 teams in the entire CCL/ESCC would be in a separate 8A Division.

Call it the Blue. In this case I'm putting Loyola, Mt. Carmel, St. Ignatius and Marist in there. Mt. Carmel is the only one that gets bumped up a class from where they are now. Again CCL/ESCC guys could do it differently however they want. Doesn't matter they are all in the playoffs regardless.

7A would be the Green. Brother Rice and St. Rita who already are in 7A would reside there. While it would be the decision of the CCL/ESCC ultimately to set these divisions just for this exercise I'm bumping up Joliet Catholic and Nazareth based off of past success. (This is the part where I expect to get all of the JCA and Naz fans hate lol...good luck to both of your teams this weekend and lets hope for an awesome final. Tons of respect to you both.)

6A would be the White. Providence, Fenwick, Niles Notre Dame and Benet would be here since I'm going mostly off of enrollment.

5A would be the Orange. St. Francis, St. Laurence, Carmel, and St. Patrick would be here.

Finally 4A would be the Purple. IC, Montini, St. Viator, and Marmion would be this division.

Marian, De La Salle, DePaul Prep, Leo, and maybe Aurora Catholic if they join would be in the Red and treated like how they are now with playoff qualification but minus the multiplier and success factor since it is not necessary anymore under this model. They'd be 3A-1A most certainly.

3A-5A is usually the biggest complaint area from the public schools like when an Montini or IC drops down to these classes. Now 3A-1A is wide open to mostly public schools outside of the occasional private school outside of the CCL/ESCC like Chicago Hope or Decatur St. Teresa. But again those types of schools aren't the ones getting the pushback from the public schools for winning state titles.

Remember all 20 of the CCL/ESCC teams in the Blue, Green, White, Orange, and Purple now qualify for the IHSA playoffs regardless of record. They play each other and then when Week 10 comes it is playoff time.

As an example of how this would work here is the new 8A playoff bracket. This is what that would look like under this new model. I'll post 7A-4A separately since it gets more complicated and takes more time to calculate as you go down in classes.

Again I know this is not anything anyone would go for outside of maybe a few of us on this message board to create more competitive matchups, but looking at this 8A bracket the small adjustments made make this quite intriguing for me to see how it plays out the rest of the way from 7A-4A.

Here is my rationale and 8A bracket played out until the Finals based off of my predictions on what would happen. Enjoy or hate. Either way enjoy the long holiday weekend!

CCL/ESCC BLUE (8A) AUTOMATIC QUALIFIERS
LOYOLA (1-2 seed and a 1st round home game)
MT. CARMEL (3-4 seed and a 1st round home game)
ST. IGNATIUS (17-18 seed and a 1st round road game)
MARIST (19-20 and a 1st round road game)

8A Field: Add Mt. Carmel and Marist and drop Edwardsville and Glenbard West based on enrollment

8A:
1st Round: #1 Loyola vs. #32 Plainfield North, #2 LWE vs. #31 Taft, #3 Mt. Carmel vs. #30 Glenbrook South, #4 Barrington vs. #29 West Aurora, #5 York vs. #28 Homewood Flossmoor, #6 Maine South vs. #27 Lockport, #7 South Elgin vs. #26 Lane, #8 Huntley vs. #25 Niles West, #9 Joliet West vs. #24 Oswego, #10 Warren vs. #23 Aurora East, #11 Belleville East vs. #22 Lyons, #12 Stevenson vs. #21 Naperville North, #13 Naperville Central vs. #20 Marist, #14 Minooka vs. #19 St. Ignatius, #15 Neuqua Valley vs. #18 Downers Grove South, #16 Palatine vs. #17 Sandburg

2nd Round: #1 Loyola vs. #16 Palatine, #8 Huntley vs. #24 Oswego, #4 Barrington vs. #20 Marist, #5 York vs. #21 Naperville North, #2 Lincoln-Way East vs. #15 Neuqua Valley, #7 South Elgin vs. #10 Warren, #3 Mt. Carmel vs. #19 St. Ignatius, #6 Maine South vs. #22 Lyons

Quarterfinals: #1 Loyola vs. #8 Huntley, #4 Barrington vs. #5 York, #2 Lincoln Way East vs. #10 Warren, #3 Mt. Carmel vs. #6 Maine South

Semifinals: #1 Loyola vs. #5 York, #2 Lincoln Way East vs. #3 Mt. Carmel

Finals: #1 Loyola vs. #2 Lincoln Way East

That Lincoln-Way East-Mt. Carmel semifinal would be absolutely epic by the way. I took LWE here just because I'm trying to show how this model would almost certainly create 8A-4A public vs. private finals which I think would be so much fun to watch and ultimately create a put up or shut up scenario that would absolutely light this message board on fire even more so than it already is during Finals Week

I'll work on sharing 7A-4A as I go through the rest of the adjustments here later. Enjoy!

In principle it seems reasonable. However, I'm not sure I understand how you are seeding the CCL/ESCC teams. For example, when you list the four Blue Division teams you show St. Ignatius as being either a 17 seed or an 18 seed; but when you then display the 8A bracket you show St. Ignatius as the 19 seed.

There is precedent for the IHSA treating some schools, as a group, differently than other schools. Many years ago the Chicago Public Schools played their own post-season basketball tournament with the winner then being entered into the state tournament as a quarterfinalist. That same concept could be used for football. It combines the best of the two competing alternatives (separate playoff / combined playoff)

There were 24 CCL/ESCC teams this year, competing in six four-team divisions. At the end of the regular season those four teams (in each division) could have a small playoff against each other. The winner of that four-team playoff would then be slotted into the state playoff as a #3 seed quarterfinalist. This eliminates the complaint of CCL/ESCC teams knocking public schools out of the playoffs during the first two rounds, and it eliminates the possibility of CCL/ESCC teams dominating the semifinals such as in 5A this year, but still allows the CCL/ESCC to win as many as six state championships (8A through 3A). The divisions would be classified in the manner you identified above, but the Red Division would be assigned to 3A. Every year there would be one, but only one, CCL/ESCC team in the quarterfinals of the 8A through 3A brackets. As a #3 seed they would not play the #1 seed public school until the championship game (if both teams made it that far).

The above guidelines deal with the best conference in the state, but to improve competitive balance within the classes we also need to deal with the worst conferences in the state. I would suggest that any conference that has not placed a team in the quarterfinals in the last five playoffs would only be allowed one team in the current year's playoffs (with that one team being the conference champion).

 

[niualum2002]

Not upset at all because it's so stupid. Giving any one conference exceptions is just dumb. No scenario justifies depaul or Leo getting in. Be better.

In this setup Leo and DePaul don't get in. But in the current system this year 14 of the 20 schools I have given automatic qualifiers to made the playoffs anyways so I'm basically only giving 6 automatic births to other CCL/ESCC teams at the expense of mostly 4-5 teams while also pushing them up a class in some cases. I just think it balances out.

Again I'm not thinking it would ever happen but it's not exactly stupid...just a different model.

 

[niualum2002]

In principle it seems reasonable. However, I'm not sure I understand how you are seeding the CCL/ESCC teams. For example, when you list the four Blue Division teams you show St. Ignatius as being either a 17 seed or an 18 seed; but when you then display the 8A bracket you show St. Ignatius as the 19 seed.

There is precedent for the IHSA treating some schools, as a group, differently than other schools. Many years ago the Chicago Public Schools played their own post-season basketball tournament with the winner then being entered into the state tournament as a quarterfinalist. That same concept could be used for football. It combines the best of the two competing alternatives (separate playoff / combined playoff)

There were 24 CCL/ESCC teams this year, competing in six four-team divisions. At the end of the regular season those four teams (in each division) could have a small playoff against each other. The winner of that four-team playoff would then be slotted into the state playoff as a #3 seed quarterfinalist. This eliminates the complaint of CCL/ESCC teams knocking public schools out of the playoffs during the first two rounds, and it eliminates the possibility of CCL/ESCC teams dominating the semifinals such as in 5A this year, but still allows the CCL/ESCC to win as many as six state championships (8A through 3A). The divisions would be classified in the manner you identified above, but the Red Division would be assigned to 3A. Every year there would be one, but only one, CCL/ESCC team in the quarterfinals of the 8A through 3A brackets. As a #3 seed they would not play the #1 seed public school until the championship game (if both teams made it that far).

The above guidelines deal with the best conference in the state, but to improve competitive balance within the classes we also need to deal with the worst conferences in the state. I would suggest that any conference that has not placed a team in the quarterfinals in the last five playoffs would only be allowed one team in the current year's playoffs (with that one team being the conference champion).

All good points and I don't disagree. Just throwing this out there as another model. Also I screwed up when I did the 17-18 seed for 8A and 7A. I ended up seeding the 3rd CCL/ESCC Qualifier as the 19 seed and the 4th as the 20th seed in and I just kept it since I didn't want to go back and do more work lol.

 

[niualum2002]

Not upset at all because it's so stupid. Giving any one conference exceptions is just dumb. No scenario justifies depaul or Leo getting in. Be better.

Also since I'm not sure yet how 4A plays out based on your screen name can you at least give me some time to run the 4A bracket in this scenario? You may actually like it.

 

[4Afan]

Also since I'm not sure yet how 4A plays out based on your screen name can you at least give me some time to run the 4A bracket in this scenario? You may actually like it.

Save yourself the time. Not in favor of any scenario that gives exceptions or preferential treatment to any one conference.

 

[niualum2002]

Save yourself the time. Not in favor of any scenario that gives exceptions or preferential treatment to any one conference.

Fair enough. Heck I don't even know if I like it either but I at least wanted to play it out to see what it looks like. It came out more interesting than I thought it would.

 

[The Rainmaker]

Fair enough. Heck I don't even know if I like it either but I at least wanted to play it out to see what it looks like. It came out more interesting than I though

Fair enough. Heck I don't even know if I like it either but I at least wanted to play it out to see what it looks like. It came out more interesting than I thought it would.

I think N' s proposal is far too complicated and does not address the yearly variable quality of teams sufficiently ---for example , Carmel beat Antioch 50-7 this year in the second round and lost 43-0 to Sycamore last year in the second round. The easiest solution wound be to increase the multiplier from 1.65 to 2.0 and we would see a big drop off in private school victories.

 

[The Rainmaker]

I think N' s proposal is far too complicated and does not address the yearly variable quality of teams sufficiently ---for example , Carmel beat Antioch 50-7 this year in the second round and lost 43-0 to Sycamore last year in the second round. The easiest solution wound be to increase the multiplier from 1.65 to 2.0 and we would see a big drop off in private school victories.

 

[The Rainmaker]

Also, the multiplier should be applied every year to all private schools regardless of prior year records.

 

[RJH-SHG]

I am glad Public Schools don't recruit or use "guardianship" as a way to get around boundaries.......Oh wait Peoria High? How is it that a student that lives a block away from one school can go play for one across town and no issues? There are a lot of shady things that happen with Public schools but people want to turn a blind eye on those.

 

[McCaravan]

Outside of MC losing it’s not that bad! And touching the third rail is better then peeing on it! 😀

 

[RD_Watcher]

Man - someone does more than just complain and offers a draft of an solution, and people still crap all over him.

Do I think its fully fleshed out? No. Do I think it'll ever get implemented? Also no, not in the form of a conference having different rules for qualifying. But I do think it is an intriguing process that could lead to a better balance.

Well done @niualum2002. Thanks for taking the time to think this through and put it out there. I'd love to see how all the classes would play out, if you want to post them.

 

[niualum2002]

Man - someone does more than just complain and offers a draft of an solution, and people still crap all over him.

Do I think its fully fleshed out? No. Do I think it'll ever get implemented? Also no, not in the form of a conference having different rules for qualifying. But I do think it is an intriguing process that could lead to a better balance.

Well done @niualum2002. Thanks for taking the time to think this through and put it out there. I'd love to see how all the classes would play out, if you want to post them.

Thanks RD_Watcher! I only did the 4A bracket in addition to the 5A-8A ones so here it is in anticipation of tonight's title game.

4A: Add Evergreen Park, Highland, Morris, Rochelle, Sacred-Heart Griffin, Corliss, Montini, Marmion and drop Dyett, Phillips, Phoenix, Harrisburg, Kewanee, Peoria Notre Dame, Richmond-Burton, St. Laurence

4A: #1 Morris, #2 IC, #3 Rochester, #4 Montini, #5 Murphysboro, #6 Rockford Boylan, #7 Dixon, #8 Highland, #9 Wheaton Academy, #10 Breese Central, #11 Rochelle, #12 Mt. Zion, #13 Carterville, #14 Charleston, #15 CVS, #16 Metamora, #17 Coal City, #18 Normal University, #19 St. Viator, #20 Marmion, #21 Springfield Sacred Heart-Griffin, #22 Evergreen Park, #23 Freeburg, #24 Sandwich, #25 Geneseo, #26 Effingham, #27 Corliss, #28 Plano, #29 Cahokia, #30 Taylorville, #31 Ag. Science, #32 Lincoln

1st Round: #1 Morris vs. #32 Lincoln, #2 IC vs. #31 Ag. Science, #3 Rochester vs. #30 Taylorville, #4 Montini vs. #29 Cahokia, #5 Murphysboro vs. #28 Plano, #6 Rockford Boylan vs. #27 Chicago Corliss, #7 Dixon vs. #26 Effingham, #8 Highland vs. #25 Geneseo, #9 Wheaton Academy vs. #24 Sandwich, #10 Breese Central vs. #23 Freeburg, #11 Rochelle vs. #22 Evergreen Park, #12 Mt. Zion vs. #21 Springfield Sacred Heart-Griffin, #13 Carterville vs. #20 Marmion, #14 Charleston vs. #19 St. Viator, #15 CVS vs. #18 Normal University, #16 Metamora vs. #17 Coal City

2nd Round #1 Morris vs. #17 Coal City, #2 IC vs. #18 Normal University, #3 Rochester vs. #19 St. Viator, #4 Montini vs. #13 Carterville, #5 Murphysboro vs. #21 Springfield Sacred Heart-Griffin, #6 Rockford Boylan vs. #11 Rochelle, #7 Dixon vs. #10 Breese Central, #8 Highland vs. #9 Wheaton Academy

Quarterfinals: #1 Morris vs. #9 Wheaton Academy, #2 IC vs. #7 Dixon, #3 Rochester vs. #6 Rockford Boylan, #4 Montini vs. #21 Springfield Sacred Heart-Griffin

Semifinals: #1 Morris vs. #4 Montini, #2 IC vs. #3 Rochester

Finals: #1 Morris vs. #3 Rochester

 

[crazylegs777]

I wonder if they cry like babies in Indiana. Last night 2 private schools laid waste to 2 very good public schools & today another will probably happen so 3 out of 6

 

[Jjohanik]

There are two issue in this debate: 1) public vs. private roster setting and competitive advantages/disadvantages 2) playoff qualification.

1) This is a long discussion. Let me break it down as I see it as a coach:

Issue one: boundaried vs. non-boundaried schools. We once lived in a public school boundary of a school with a less than stellar coaching program and a terrible record of success. With three boys who played youth football, we had a choice: either move or go private. We went private. A neighbor of mine with a son now playing in the SEC decided to move. These decisions happen all the time. Both decisions required $$$ to be spent to become part of programs that I will simply call "positive". Regardless of whether a school is public or private, the administration must be dedicated to success or people will not choose to be a part of it.

The entire phenomenon in social sciences is called "self-selection" and it happens all the time. However, the barrier to self-selection in IHSA football is $$$. It costs money to self-select to be a part of a program that is positive. It hurts those who don't have money to go private or move. It also has the opportunity to create situations where kids without $$$ are funded by private school boosters or in the case of public schools, getting around the boundaries issue. Not playing "by the rules" takes place by many when trying to eliminate the barriers to self-selection.

Solution: Lower the barriers for self-selection to take place. 1) Create "school of choice for publics" like Michigan and tax vouchers for privates. Eliminate these ridiculous transfer rules. Make schools compete against each other in what they offer: academics, athletics, fine arts. CPS, in effect, does this. Why does everyone want to get into Whitney Young and not go to a neighborhood school? Have you seen the difference?

This self-selection scenarios plays out down in Springfield in football every year. Two schools, Rochester (public) and Sacred Heart Griffin (private) are the schools of primary self-selection for football. I've known families literally move across town before their son enters high school to go to Rochester. Others choose to pay to go to SHG. It begins with great coaching and schools who are committed to success. I'd want my sons to be coached by a Leonard if we lived in Springfield -- I'd be considering a move or going to SHG (when Ken was there).

Issue two: competitive advantages and disadvantages
Most privates don't have the budgets or the salaries of the publics. My coaches get paid next to nothing and often this is a second job. Publics can fund coaches and their programs at much higher rates than I can. Compare the salaries of my coaches who work in the school with a public school teacher/coach. For a public school teacher with Masters+60, coaching two sports -- you're over $100K/yr. Ours are half that. We have to raise money for absolutely everything.

Conversely, privates can appeal to various issues easier than at a public. Our Christian faith is important to our program...something that can't be visibly exercised by the coaching staff of a public school (and yet I know of some outstanding Christian coaches of public schools, as mentioned above,...but they have to exercise their faith more off campus).

2) Playoff qualification
Get rid of this selection based on records. Use the CalPreps/MaxPreps ranking system. Break the state up in to halves, large schools in one pool (enrollment 1000+) and small schools (enrollment less than 1000). Take the ranking of the top 126 teams in the large school pool and the top 126 teams in the small school pool and then divide them up in four classes each.

For CPS schools not making the top 256, have them run their own CPS playoff bracket.

This gets rid of scheduling for playoff eligibility or the CCL having to "share the pain". A 2-7 CCL team could easily make the playoffs while a 9-0 CPS team not. We're looking for the best 256, aren't we?

You could even make an open division for each pool of the top 8 teams and crown a large school state champ and a small school state champ.

Just dreaming....

Summary: Lower the barriers to self-selection and choose the best teams in the state for the playoffs. None of this will ever take place with the current systems in place at the state governance level. The consequences will be endless bickering between public and privates and wacky playoff brackets at each class.

 

[Wassup13]

I never understand these threads. The system is already great the way it is.

The ones that constantly complain won 5 of the 8 classes this year.

If you want everybody to get a trophy, then find another sport.

 

[The Rainmaker]

In addition to increasing the multiplier to 2.0 for all private schools, an increase to 3.0 for three years for any private school starting the year after its playing in a state title game should be considered.

 

[The Rainmaker]

It should be notes that many private schools have struggled under the current system : For example, St. Viator has never won a second round game in the 49 years of playoffs. Marist, Notre Dame, and St. Patrick's have never won a state title and Brother Rice has only won once.

 

[ramblinman]

In addition to increasing the multiplier to 2.0 for all private schools, an increase to 3.0 for three years for any private school starting the year after its playing in a state title game should be considered.

Congratulations, Peoria Notre Dame, for winning the 2A state championship in girls basketball last weekend, your school's first ever. Indeed, this year, you made it past the quarterfinals in girls hoops for the first time in your school's history. Nice job! Good luck in 4A for the next three years.

Congratulations, North Shore Country Day School, for winning your school's first ever state title in boys soccer this past fall. Even though your enrollment gets multiplied by a factor of 3 for the next three years, you get to stay in 1A because you're THAT small. 🤣

 

[HRCJR]

So Loyola Girls Basketball goes where? Naz GB is already in 4A?

Could it be that some private schools foster an environment that produces excellence on the playing field, in classroom, on the stage, and in the community better than the remainder of schools? Could paying tuition actually create some accountability that is lacking in many parts of our communities and homes?

Asking for a friend.

AMDG

 

[epicbret]

In addition to increasing the multiplier to 2.0 for all private schools, an increase to 3.0 for three years for any private school starting the year after its playing in a state title game should be considered.

Insane logic

 

[Quags57]

There are two issue in this debate: 1) public vs. private roster setting and competitive advantages/disadvantages 2) playoff qualification.

1) This is a long discussion. Let me break it down as I see it as a coach:

Issue one: boundaried vs. non-boundaried schools. We once lived in a public school boundary of a school with a less than stellar coaching program and a terrible record of success. With three boys who played youth football, we had a choice: either move or go private. We went private. A neighbor of mine with a son now playing in the SEC decided to move. These decisions happen all the time. Both decisions required $$$ to be spent to become part of programs that I will simply call "positive". Regardless of whether a school is public or private, the administration must be dedicated to success or people will not choose to be a part of it.

The entire phenomenon in social sciences is called "self-selection" and it happens all the time. However, the barrier to self-selection in IHSA football is $$$. It costs money to self-select to be a part of a program that is positive. It hurts those who don't have money to go private or move. It also has the opportunity to create situations where kids without $$$ are funded by private school boosters or in the case of public schools, getting around the boundaries issue. Not playing "by the rules" takes place by many when trying to eliminate the barriers to self-selection.

Solution: Lower the barriers for self-selection to take place. 1) Create "school of choice for publics" like Michigan and tax vouchers for privates. Eliminate these ridiculous transfer rules. Make schools compete against each other in what they offer: academics, athletics, fine arts. CPS, in effect, does this. Why does everyone want to get into Whitney Young and not go to a neighborhood school? Have you seen the difference?

This self-selection scenarios plays out down in Springfield in football every year. Two schools, Rochester (public) and Sacred Heart Griffin (private) are the schools of primary self-selection for football. I've known families literally move across town before their son enters high school to go to Rochester. Others choose to pay to go to SHG. It begins with great coaching and schools who are committed to success. I'd want my sons to be coached by a Leonard if we lived in Springfield -- I'd be considering a move or going to SHG (when Ken was there).

Issue two: competitive advantages and disadvantages
Most privates don't have the budgets or the salaries of the publics. My coaches get paid next to nothing and often this is a second job. Publics can fund coaches and their programs at much higher rates than I can. Compare the salaries of my coaches who work in the school with a public school teacher/coach. For a public school teacher with Masters+60, coaching two sports -- you're over $100K/yr. Ours are half that. We have to raise money for absolutely everything.

Conversely, privates can appeal to various issues easier than at a public. Our Christian faith is important to our program...something that can't be visibly exercised by the coaching staff of a public school (and yet I know of some outstanding Christian coaches of public schools, as mentioned above,...but they have to exercise their faith more off campus).

2) Playoff qualification
Get rid of this selection based on records. Use the CalPreps/MaxPreps ranking system. Break the state up in to halves, large schools in one pool (enrollment 1000+) and small schools (enrollment less than 1000). Take the ranking of the top 126 teams in the large school pool and the top 126 teams in the small school pool and then divide them up in four classes each.

For CPS schools not making the top 256, have them run their own CPS playoff bracket.

This gets rid of scheduling for playoff eligibility or the CCL having to "share the pain". A 2-7 CCL team could easily make the playoffs while a 9-0 CPS team not. We're looking for the best 256, aren't we?

You could even make an open division for each pool of the top 8 teams and crown a large school state champ and a small school state champ.

Just dreaming....

Summary: Lower the barriers to self-selection and choose the best teams in the state for the playoffs. None of this will ever take place with the current systems in place at the state governance level. The consequences will be endless bickering between public and privates and wacky playoff brackets at each class.

Lots of thought here. Well done.

But as a coach, you have to know, the IHSA does not care about having the best ranked tournament. If they did, they wouln't have regionals or sectionals where the best teams compete against each other while other teams coast through.

They want to 1) have a tournament, 2) have regional reprensentation and 3) crown a state champion.

Until that thought process changes, all the MaxPreps or CalPreps or any other outside system that ranks teams will not matter and won't be implemented.

 

[ramblinman]

So Loyola Girls Basketball goes where? Naz GB is already in 4A?

Could it be that some private schools foster an environment that produces excellence on the playing field, in classroom, on the stage, and in the community better than the remainder of schools? Could paying tuition actually create some accountability that is lacking in many parts of our communities and homes?

Asking for a friend.

AMDG

I have long thought that way but, every time I would posit that opinion in forums like these, the public school apologists would start to foam at the mouth.

 

[johnndoe]

Could it be that some private schools foster an environment that produces excellence on the playing field, in classroom, on the stage, and in the community better than the remainder of schools? Could paying tuition actually create some accountability that is lacking in many parts of our communities and homes?

So it is the "nurture" and not the "nature" driving the success ... I see.