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I'm with MC63 on this one.

I'm not buying into the xfiles conspiracy theory on FDR and Pearl Harbor. Cavalcade of errors starting with yes FDR and intelligence data and trickling down to the Pearl commanders, and including lining up the us fighter planes up in a row for tidy bombing and straffing runs for the Zeros under the guise of the planes easier to guard against sabotage and ending with the spotting the Japanese planes on radar coming from the direction of the open sea (and not from the us mainland) and calling it a flock of birds moving quickly.

Regardless - if the US doesn't enter the war (and quickly) then history would have played out with the USA being carved up into two pieces with everyone west of the Mississippi River speaking Japanese and everyone east of the Mississippi speaking German. Eventually Japan and Germany would have gone at it and both would probably have the atom bomb (Japan would have captured the uranium processing facilities in Hanford Washington and trinity sites etc. and would have continued to work on the project.

Truman - horrible decision to make. Probably the toughest decision any president had to make but he made the correct one in my view as his primary responsibility is to save as many lives of the citizens he serves (civilian and military) as he can and secondarily save as many civilian lives overall (including the enemy's) while winning/ending the war. I think he did all three
* estimates of an invasion of the Japanese Home Islands was 2 million American casualties.
* estimates were much more than that for Japanese casualties military and civilian.
* the war ended shortly after the 2nd bomb.

Agree
* Vietnam unnecessary and huge mistake
* Gulf War II unnecessary and huge mistake.
Voodoo... agree with your comments. Lose lose situation with the bomb and a horrible decision to have to make. Anybody that doesn't have mixed feelings about the event isn't human IMO. I think the US enters WW2, it was just a matter of when. Disagree on one thing... Germany and/or Japan would NEVER have had any physical occupation of the contiguous US. If we don't enter the war, our military assets are in defensive mode protecting our shores.
 
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Voodoo... agree with your comments. Lose lose situation with the bomb and a horrible decision to have to make. Anybody that doesn't have mixed feelings about the event isn't human IMO. I think the US enters WW2, it was just a matter of when. Disagree on one thing... Germany and/or Japan would NEVER have had any physical occupation of the contiguous US. If we don't enter the war, our military assets are in defensive mode protecting our shores.

Yeah a total lose lose.

It's debatable on the occupation. Also depends on when it happened. Remember at the beginning we didn't really have an army - 1 combat ready division is all we had. Germany and Japan had 300 EACH! And he had no plans to increase our readiness (congressional no go with the isolationists)

If in 1942- The estimates were Japan would have penetrated as far as Chicago before we could mount enough defense to blunt their move forward. I doubt Japan had the logistics and supply lines capable of sustaining that advance and I believe they would have pulled back to behind the Rockies. Germany was in no position in 1942 to hit the east coast they would have to take out the U.K. First and leave Russia alone until after they took us out. And they might have just gone after Russia as they didn't have the capabilities at the time to cross the Atlantic in force.

Imagine if Truman didn't drop the bomb and a few years after the war (USA would have still won but with massive causialities in the home island invasion) it came out that Truman had a wonder weapon that had the ability to potentially end the war before an invasion and wipe out all of Japan's war machine from the air but it would kill and horribly maim 100 of thousands of Japanese?

Well I for one wouldn't be here to see it as my grandfather would have most likely been one of the 2 million causualities in the home island invasion but my guess is there would be hundreds or thousands of JWARa saying "why didn't he have the stones to drop it and save millions of lives? He's the worst president ever and should be impeached posthumous
 
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Just wanted to interject on one point. We don't get to pretend we weren't in the war while we were providing the Allies with weapons in 1940. At that point we were in the war.
 
Voodoo,

I don't disagree with dropping the first bomb to send a message that continued resistance was futile, but remember the war in Europe was done and we could have waited. You are all right that this was a horribly difficult decision. Soon after WW2 ended Truman started the Korean conflict. My point in the end is you can't just go out and call the Republican Party war mongers, when the party you idolize has been equally or worse complicent in putting America's military in harms way.


Yeah a total lose lose.

It's debatable on the occupation. Also depends on when it happened. Remember at the beginning we didn't really have an army - 1 combat ready division is all we had. Germany and Japan had 300 EACH! And he had no plans to increase our readiness (congressional no go with the isolationists)

If in 1942- The estimates were Japan would have penetrated as far as Chicago before we could mount enough defense to blunt their move forward. I doubt Japan had the logistics and supply lines capable of sustaining that advance and I believe they would have pulled back to behind the Rockies. Germany was in no position in 1942 to hit the east coast they would have to take out the U.K. First and leave Russia alone until after they took us out. And they might have just gone after Russia as they didn't have the capabilities at the time to cross the Atlantic in force.

Imagine if Truman didn't drop the bomb and a few years after the war (USA would have still won but with massive causialities in the home island invasion) it came out that Truman had a wonder weapon that had the ability to potentially end the war before an invasion and wipe out all of Japan's war machine from the air but it would kill and horribly maim 100 of thousands of Japanese?

Well I for one wouldn't be here to see it as my grandfather would have most likely been one of the 2 million causualities in the home island invasion but my guess is there would be hundreds or thousands of JWARa saying "why didn't he have the stones to drop it and save millions of lives? He's the worst president ever and should be impeached posthumous
 
Just wanted to interject on one point. We don't get to pretend we weren't in the war while we were providing the Allies with weapons in 1940. At that point we were in the war.

Great point Bones. We were supplying food medicine, supplies etc and antiquated weapons to Russia and The British well before the USA entered the war. Germany probably didn't like that very much. On the Atlantic The convoys were protected by us navy for half the trip and the Brits took over on the home leg to U.K. The uboats would have eventually sunk enough of the USA flagged ships to force congress to enter the war at some point with active offensive military forces (when and where is anyone's guess).

Frankly I'm surprised the weapons helped. The us weaponry was so far behind the Germans and Japanese is was a joke and nearly a disaster in the early years of the USA entering the war in an "active" state with combat troops. In my opinion that gap was so traumatizing to the USA military and causes so many more additional causalities that it has "stayed with us in our culture" and drives some of the over the top defense project spending that is totally unnecessary in this day and age (never again will we send our boys out with inferior equipment to get slautered... example - tanks with gas engines and 75mm guns up against diesel tanks with 105mm Guns. Total slaughter.

In another policy error - The USA stopped exporting and cut off the Japonese oil and Gas supply. the USA assumes Japan will not react to that? And the USA totally unprepared for any military reaction when they made that embargo decision? Completely incompetent.

Hindsight is 20/20. But agree with you Bones quite a few of our foreign policy decisions over the past century are really head scratchers.
 
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Voodoo,

I don't disagree with dropping the first bomb to send a message that continued resistance was futile, but remember the war in Europe was done and we could have waited. You are all right that this was a horribly difficult decision. Soon after WW2 ended Truman started the Korean conflict. My point in the end is you can't just go out and call the Republican Party war mongers, when the party you idolize has been equally or worse complicent in putting America's military in harms way.

Oh ok. Maybe I misread/misinterpreted

Yes of course they could have waited on #2. I agree - the second was more political with Russia coming into the Asia conflict.

I am not either party. I didnt say Republicans were warmongers.
 
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Well she is winning the vote by nearly 3 million. Yes, we know thats not how the presidency is won. But it still flies in the face of what youre saying. Frankly, the rural vote is over represented in the electoral college.

The obvious solution to any region being over or under represented is to make every vote the same. Novel idea, no?

Bones
The fact is the law has not changed with the voting and like or not she lost.
 
You said that the Republicans were the party of "war starters", yet when given a list of numerous Democrat presidents that "started wars" you suddenly don't want to "get into that". Perhaps it was another false narrative on your part.
"false narrative" -- who taught you that expression? I thought you were a "high horse" at best kind of guy. Keep it up.
 
Wow I missed a lot since yesterday. Way too much to talk about. But the WWII conversation has me very interested. No question the most critical global war ever. First of all we think the way we do today about that war based on what we have learned from other people. None of us fought in that war. But a couple of things.

I have never agreed with FDR's economic ideas. However, behind Abraham Lincoln, he was the best war President this country ever saw. There I am giving a Democrat full credit although the Democratic party was 180 degrees different then than it is now. But that is another story.

The U.S. strategic land positions all around the globe were a big reason we won that war. I think I read somewhere in this thread that Germany couldn't reach the U.S. mainland for an air strike and that is true. They couldn't fly planes from Germany, perform an attack and then make it all the way back. So, one of the options they sought was to occupy Iceland. They were turned back several times and very folks know this. From Iceland they could have reached us and would have.

Also, when it comes to the bomb, Germany was very, very close to perfecting it and we barely beat them. Their idea, if they had developed it first, was to launch it from rockets. They were simultaneously working to develop and launch rockets and they continually failed. Failed long enough for us to end Hitler's dream.

When it comes to the preparedness of WWII, someone here wrote Germany was far ahead of us and that is a fact. My grandfather came to the U.S. from Germany in 1921. My grandmother, from Vienna, Austria in 1922. My grandfather fought in WWI for Kaiser Wilhelm II. By the way he was Germany's last Kaiser. They both left when things in their countries started to change. They also left brothers and sisters behind.

Years ago, my grandmother showed me letters she had received from 1935, 36, 37 and 38 from her brother over there who said Hitler was building up the military and they were far ahead of us as far as air warfare went. Their planes were far in advance of ours. Very true. We were not prepared for that war. He warned that the U.S had better start paying attention to what was going on there.

Someone also said FDR had the intelligence to suggest Japan was planning an attack on Pearl Harbor and chose not to do anything. That has never been actually proven beyond a shadow of a doubt although it was no secret he wanted in that war long before we entered. However, a vast majority of Americans did not want in that war. Pearl Harbor changed all of that. Some people say he knew, but some say he didn't. We will probably never know for sure. There is evidence both ways.

As far as dropping the bomb goes, I do agree with the decision. But we have to remember we think and live much differently than those people living and making the decisions 70+ years ago did. Back then we hated the Japanese and the Germans and weren't very friendly to Italians either. Make no mistake. They hated us too. Some Japanese people living here were put into camps on FDR's orders. That wouldn't happen today and the problem is that we think in the current time. A lot has changed.

In my opinion, the biggest mistake Hitler made, among the other mistakes, was to turn on Russia and the defeat the German army suffered in Russia in battles in the bitter cold helped turn the tide in that war although Russia couldn't be trusted.

I will make other posts. But when it came to that war there was no Republicans or Democrats after Pearl Harbor was bombed. There were Americans, many of them who wanted to go fight that war. A close friend of mine whose father fought in WWII in the Pacific theater said right after Pearl Harbor was hit, he and a lot of his friends went to the local high school to enlist. Getting that guy to talk about that war was like pulling teeth. But he said the Japanese were ruthless. You weren't going to get them to surrender before the bomb. You had to kill them all. He said the British were tough SOBs. He also said the French were pussies. Hahaha. He was a tough old dude himself. He passed away 10 years ago and I really miss talking to that guy. These people lived it.
 
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MC:

As respectfully as I can be, I must disagree with your assertion Trump and Russian President Putin are involved in some unholy alliance.

Imagine the upheaval in the Pentagon or White House had the Russians had placed combat troops in Canada or Mexico and had negotiated economic agreements with Canada and Mexico and these pacts excluded the United States.

What Trump is proposing is an entirely different approach with the Kremlin: After 25 years of ignoring the steady drumbeat of Russian warnings against NATO and the EU expansion growing ever closer to the Russian frontier, the Kremlin finally re-acted.

Do some research into the American chicanery which drove Viktor Yanukovych into exile in 2014 over Yanukovych's desire to strengthen ties to Moscow as opposed to turning to the West. The American meddling caused Yanukovych's flight to Moscow and the West paved the way for a new government in Kiev, backed by the Americans, some of whom are neo-fascists.

It was this last move, driving a democratically-elected leader, Yanukovych, from office which inspired the Kremlin to seize Crimea. Certain NATO and the EU were prepared to offer Ukraine a cushy spot in NATO, the Kremlin swallowed Crimea whole to prevent Ukraine from accepting NATO's bid for membership and allowing the U.S. Navy to park its fleet at Crimean naval facilities.

Anyone think the Kremlin would stand by and watch helplessly as NATO warships blocked Russian access to the Black Sea and to the Mediterranean?

As far as Syria, American policy in the Middle East is partly responsible for the immeasurable suffering endured by the Syrian population. You reference stories seeping out about alleged atrocities committed by Syrian troops which may be true, but American support for Syrian opposition groups is on the same plane. I am not sure if you saw CNN's Kate Bouldan's teary-eyed presentation about Omran, but it was moving. In it, Bouldan describes the story of Omran as a victim of Russian aggression, and while her oration on behalf of Omran tugged at the heartstrings, Omran's suffering was no different than the Syrian boy beheaded by Harakat Nour al-Din al-Zenki in July.

The difference? Well, Omran was the unintended victim of the Russian aerial campaign over the skies of Aleppo and Russia is a convenient foil.

Alternatively, the unnamed Syrian boy executed by the Syrian opposition group Harakat Nour al-Din al-Zenki is BACKED BY THE CIA.

Tears were shed for Omran, but not a word about the youth butchered, beheaded by the way, by an American-backed rebel group which is every bit as responsible for the bloodletting in Syria.

This is where our friendly-neighborhood-community-organizer-turned president comes into the picture. A man of STAGGERING incompetence, Obama has stood by and allowed carnage to prevail all over the Middle East, preferring to kick the can down the road and let Trump sort out the mess. For beginners, his premature withdrawal from the region helped create a power vacuum in which Sunni group, ISIS, first drew blood.

Second, his feeble "red line," in which he demanded Syria turn over or destroy chemical weapon stockpiles, which he reversed, opened the door for Russian intervention. Tired of American inaction, Putin sided with Russia's old ally, Bashar al-Assad, and has brought the dictator back to his feet.

Last, his refusal to cooperate with the Russians to destroy militant groups and ISIS has influenced Damascus and Moscow's "zero-sum" anti-terror plan in Syria. Since Putin could not obtain any form of cooperation from the U.S., Putin was left with little alternative than to destroy anything which moved on the ground in Aleppo.

Separate from the Syria debacle, the accusation the Russian government is somehow responsible for HRC's electoral loss is utter nonsense. The tantrums thrown by the left in the wake of her loss are so amusing and the attempts to encourage Electoral voters to cast their ballots for a candidate other than the winner are nothing more than the left wanting to claim a scalp.

An utterly deplorable human being and dreadful presidential candidate, HRC has only herself to blame for her electoral loss. When Trump spoke of ending U.S. involvement in multi-lateral trade agreements in favor of bi-lateral pacts, HRC was blabbing about making history as the first female president. When Trump spoke at length about lowering the corporate tax rate from 35% to 20% to draw business to America, HRC droned on endlessly about transgender bathrooms.

Quite frankly, other than peeping Toms, perverts and deviants, I don't think anyone gave a flying fu^k about urinals in female bathrooms.

It's difficult to draw crowds when you are attempting to court votes from people who are no better off than they were in 2008. Moreover, American voters are often sensible, but rarely wise. In the 2016 election these sensible voters distinguished one candidate's vision for the country and another candidate's vision for herself. Some noticed HRC didn't concede on Election Day. Well, I have long suspected she broke protocol and refused because the old termagant never planned on losing and, thus, made no contingency plan for a concession speech. Say goodbye to the so-called "Clinton Dynasty." For good measure, the Clinton's 25-year shadow over Washington lasted longer than the 12 years of Hitler's 1,000-year Reich.

As far as the community organizer, he wasn't prepared to be president when elected in 2008 and he learned little on the job. I won't miss his 55-minute finger wags at the SOTU, the 27,000 jobs created per month, nor will I miss his incessant intellectual and moral superiority act. A legacy built on a mound of sand, Obama's term will be largely forgotten to the exception of a handful of intrepid leftist historians willing to risk their reputations burnishing Obama's image.

Regarding our new president, I greet him with immense skepticism, but if he chooses a different tack and plans outreach instead of creating an enemy of Mr. Putin, I'm fine with this. Perhaps extending a hand in friendship and trying to get along with foreign leaders will be to our benefit.
After reading this I am in awe. I wish I had this kind of talent to write so well as you do. This is art. You have quite a talent. Not because I happen to agree. I would say the same thing if someone on the other side could write so well. But no one on that side can or does. I agree on all of your points. Especially on how the election was won and lost. Very well done.
 
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Wow I missed a lot since yesterday. Way too much to talk about. But the WWII conversation has me very interested. No question the most critical global war ever. First of all we think the way we do today about that war based on what we have learned from other people. None of us fought in that war. But a couple of things.

I have never agreed with FDR's economic ideas. However, behind Abraham Lincoln, he was the best war President this country ever saw. There I am giving a Democrat full credit although the Democratic party was 180 degrees different then than it is now. But that is another story.

The U.S. strategic land positions all around the globe were a big reason we won that war. I think I read somewhere in this thread that Germany couldn't reach the U.S. mainland for an air strike and that is true. They couldn't fly planes from Germany, perform an attack and then make it all the way back. So, one of the options they sought was to occupy Iceland. They were turned back several times and very folks know this. From Iceland they could have reached us and would have.

Also, when it comes to the bomb, Germany was very, very close to perfecting it and we barely beat them. Their idea, if they had developed it first, was to launch it from rockets. They were simultaneously working to develop and launch rockets and they continually failed. Failed long enough for us to end Hitler's dream.

When it comes to the preparedness of WWII, someone here wrote Germany was far ahead of us and that is a fact. My grandfather came to the U.S. from Germany in 1921. My grandmother, from Vienna, Austria in 1922. My grandfather fought in WWI for Kaiser Wilhelm II. By the way he was Germany's last Kaiser. They both left when things in their countries started to change. They also left brothers and sisters behind.

Years ago, my grandmother showed me letters she had received from 1935, 36, 37 and 38 from her brother over there who said Hitler was building up the military and they were far ahead of us as far as air warfare went. Their planes were far in advance of ours. Very true. We were not prepared for that war. He warned that the U.S had better start paying attention to what was going on there.

Someone also said FDR had the intelligence to suggest Japan was planning an attack on Pearl Harbor and chose not to do anything. That has never been actually proven beyond a shadow of a doubt although it was no secret he wanted in that war long before we entered. However, a vast majority of Americans did not want in that war. Pearl Harbor changed all of that. Some people say he knew, but some say he didn't. We will probably never know for sure. There is evidence both ways.

As far as dropping the bomb goes, I do agree with the decision. But we have to remember we think and live much differently than those people living and making the decisions 70+ years ago did. Back then we hated the Japanese and the Germans and weren't very friendly to Italians either. Make no mistake. They hated us too. Some Japanese people living here were put into camps on FDR's orders. That wouldn't happen today and the problem is that we think in the current time. A lot has changed.

In my opinion, the biggest mistake Hitler made, among the other mistakes, was to turn on Russia and the defeat the German army suffered in Russia in battles in the bitter cold helped turn the tide in that war although Russia couldn't be trusted.

I will make other posts. But when it came to that war there was no Republicans or Democrats after Pearl Harbor was bombed. There were Americans, many of them who wanted to go fight that war. A close friend of mine whose father fought in WWII in the Pacific theater said right after Pearl Harbor was hit, he and a lot of his friends went to the local high school to enlist. Getting that guy to talk about that war was like pulling teeth. But he said the Japanese were ruthless. You weren't going to get them to surrender before the bomb. You had to kill them all. He said the British were tough SOBs. He also said the French were pussies. Hahaha. He was a tough old dude himself. He passed away 10 years ago and I really miss talking to that guy. These people lived it.

Yes We were very lucky Hitler had minimal strategic military experience (going against his generals and ordering a war on two fronts plus pulling back and not destroying the French and British armies at Dunkirk and not land invading the U.K. In favor of going with his air Marshall buddy to keep the army from getting too much glory and power.). otherwise Germany wins and then later they go after Russia or the USA.

After Japan and Korea is when the phase "never get in a land war in Asia" came to prominence. Of course we did anyway with Vietnam...

If people really knew how brutal the war was in the pacific,.. their heads would spin off. My grandfather was over there from the near beginning to the end. He joined up shortly after Pearl Harbor and was over seas by early 1942. Came home in 1946. He rarely talked about it - but every once in a while if he had a few drinks in him - some crazy stuff would come to light.

But even what is generally known (images of Japanese jumping from cliffs on Okinawa rather than submit to capture - even civilians) and the videos of the Japanese military training civilian women and children with bamboo spears in preperation of the home lslands defense for the upcoming US invasion should give a good glimpse of the mindset
 
Bones
The fact is the law has not changed with the voting and like or not she lost.
Didnt say that it did. But with our country's dismal turnout for voting this is a method to increase the turnout. I've heard the arguments that say the EC makes certain places relevant that wouldnt be, I disagree. Right now the only states that matter are a handful of swing states, IL not being one of them. Did Hillary or Trump even campaign here? All I remember is Trump coming to Bolingbrook for a fundraiser closed to the public.

If every vote counted then it would make sense for Democrats to go to North Dakota and for Republicans to come to Chicago. It would, IMO, also cut some of this divisiveness because a Republican in Chicago is likely going to be more moderate than one in Mississippi while a Democrat in Iowa would probably be more moderate than one in Los Angeles. Thus our politicians can appeal to voters they normally don't have too.

That said, the #'s should be adjusted to reflect the populations better if we are going to maintain the system. There is no reason a voter in Wyoming should have many times the power as a voter in California. And they could also divide the EC votes based on the % of the vote which would have a similar effect that having a popular vote election would have which would bring all states into play.
 
Yes We were very lucky Hitler had minimal strategic military experience (going against his generals and ordering a war on two fronts plus pulling back and not destroying the French and British armies at Dunkirk and not land invading the U.K. In favor of going with his air Marshall buddy to keep the army from getting too much glory and power.). otherwise Germany wins and then later they go after Russia or the USA.

After Japan and Korea is when the phase "never get in a land war in Asia" came to prominence. Of course we did anyway with Vietnam...

If people really knew how brutal the war was in the pacific,.. their heads would spin off. My grandfather was over there from the near beginning to the end. He joined up shortly after Pearl Harbor and was over seas by early 1942. Came home in 1946. He rarely talked about it - but every once in a while if he had a few drinks in him - some crazy stuff would come to light.

But even what is generally known (images of Japanese jumping from cliffs on Okinawa rather than submit to capture - even civilians) and the videos of the Japanese military training civilian women and children with bamboo spears in preperation of the home lslands defense for the upcoming US invasion should give a good glimpse of the mindset
I am enjoying your posts voodoo. We are lucky to have learned what actually happened over there from those who were there instead of some current books that seek to change history. When I was a kid I did have a neighbor who fought in WWII in the European theater under General George Patton. I wish I could have talked to him but I was just a kid and wouldn't have been able to understand or grasp his experience.

And you are absolutely correct in your assertion of how brutal that war was in the Pacific. It never really was talked about as much as the other battles. I know exactly what you mean in speaking about your grandfather in getting him to talk about. It was hard to get any of those guys to talk about it. A generational thing I guess. Still the greatest generation of the 20th century and the last great generation.

Keep those posts coming.
 
I am guessing there are a lot of people still complaining about the Electoral College. I have a solution. Maybe each vote in more populated states should be bumped up by 1.65, yes?
 
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I am enjoying your posts voodoo. We are lucky to have learned what actually happened over there from those who were there instead of some current books that seek to change history. When I was a kid I did have a neighbor who fought in WWII in the European theater under General George Patton. I wish I could have talked to him but I was just a kid and wouldn't have been able to understand or grasp his experience.

And you are absolutely correct in your assertion of how brutal that war was in the Pacific. It never really was talked about as much as the other battles. I know exactly what you mean in speaking about your grandfather in getting him to talk about. It was hard to get any of those guys to talk about it. A generational thing I guess. Still the greatest generation of the 20th century and the last great generation.

Keep those posts coming.

Wow that would have been fantastic if you were a little older at the time and he was willing to share his firsthand experience!! As people probably guessed, I am a bit of a history buff of this time period. Plan to take the family to Normandy (have already done Pearl Harbor and the USS Airizona Memorial.

Patton was probably the greatest land war military mind this country has ever produced. After the disaster at Kasserime Pass and using inferior weapons and equipment what his army was able to accomplish is astounding. Now I am not giving him a total pass on his shortcomings (they are there with bells on) but in a life and death struggle I think history should mostly give him a pass.

I doubt there will be another generation that does as much and gives as much for the country as "the greatest generation" did. Hopefully that won't be forgotten over time and the generations shortcomings can still be acknowledged alongside with the great things they did, but not have the shortcomings be the primary focus.
 
MC:

I'n not sure what people on your side of the aisle are looking for anymore. I really don't. For over five decades sexism has gradually receded to a point where women run Fortune 500 firms, hold positions in state and federal government and dominate the enrollments in college. What precisely is the left looking for? My deepest suspicion is the issue is now weaponized to hurl the reckless charge we persist in a sexist society despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. We do not live in a sexist society any longer. It is undeniable we live among sexists, but we do not live in a sexist society.

I can not pass the opportunity to direct ire at Clinton with your passage here. Much has been made of Clinton's "lifelong" commitment to "women and children" and much has been made of her "experience" as a "stateswoman" and attorney. While she is a licensed attorney, Marilyn Quayle, wife of former VP Dan Quayle, was an accomplished attorney involved in corporate law for two decades prior to the emergence of HRC on the national scene. Because of the uninterrupted campaign against conservative women in this country, often portraying them as Victorian old women restricted to the maternity ward and kitchen, her laudable accomplishments in the business world were ignored in favor of vilifying her husband as an incompetent.



Goldman Sachs has been sending executives to work in government roles for decades and now the left is complaining about two men with ties to Goldman Sachs.

Like you, I am appalled by the excesses of Wall Street. Herbert Hoover, a vastly underrated president, said it best: "The problem with capitalism is capitalists: They are too greedy." Unfortunately, his wisdom has been ignored. Instead of punishing those who manipulate markets, we regulate the entire system.

For example: If I am caught guzzling brandy from a snifter on my front stoop, I can be arrested, charged with a crime and fined. If using marijuana on my front stop, I face a felony charge and my previously-unblemished record is stained with a criminal offense which technically could prevent me from obtaining a job.

In contrast, if I were a broker working with a Wall Street investment firm busily engaging myself in the manipulation of derivatives to the detriment of investors, and I get caught, the federal government under Obama simply fined the firm, but I get off Scot free. Wall Street thugs laughed at any potential "reform" under this administration.

I know you see the inverted morality here, but Obama did nothing. I would have used the threat of prosecution instead of regulation of markets as leverage to get Wall Street to reform itself. Want to see Wall Street behave legally, ethically and morally? Pass laws which will position the threat of prosecution like a cloud over downtown NYC and Wall Street executives will reverse their "anything goes" business model in an instant.

As far as Carson, a man of extraordinary scientific gifts, at least he has the humility to admit his shortcomings as a bureaucrat, but this should not prevent him from a role in government. At the very least, he would demonstrate more competence than the band of inept social workers dominating the current administration. I mean, Wendy Sherman, Obama's go-to gal on the Iran negotiations for JCPOA, an atrocious deal which imperils one of our greatest allies in Israel, is a former social worker, but not a word is uttered over her lack of experience.



Well, perhaps we are even in the simpleton sweepstakes. Romney didn't dodge the draft; Cheney had a legitimate deferment over a heart condition; and I am unaware of Trump's draft status.

If you are looking for a legitimate draft dodger, look at Reagan's first budget director, David Stockman. Stockman took a deferment for divinity school.
 
Sexism has not been declining for 5 decades ... I'd say two, tops. Those CEOs you mention are but a tiny handful. Sexism is alive and well.

Goldman Sachs and Washington: Was anyone like Steve Mnuchin, the foreclosure king, ever made secretary of the treasury? I invite the boys to google this guy. He is so odious, that this board couldn't contain his story.

Marilyn Quayle might be very talented, but you have to question her judgement in husbands. A complete dud.

Cheney said publicly that he didn't '"have time" for military service. Neither did I, but the Harvey, Illinois draft board found it for me. Re Romney, he manipulated his grad school and mission to be unavailable until after age 26, when he was considered too old. This strategy was becoming a real embarrassment for the Mormon church, which quickly put a stop to it. BTW, Romney actually led demonstrations in support of the VN war. Trump graduated from a small version of West Point, but then, got a medical exemption from the draft. He couldn't remember what the medical condition was. He later said that his personal Vietnam was avoiding STDs on Wall Street.

I disagree with you on Carson -- his shortcomings should very much prevent him from a role in the cabinet. Do you remember a Nixon supreme court nominee named Carswell (or, perhaps, Haynsworth - Nixon had two of them). He was rejected because he was considered "mediocre" -- to which Republican Senator Roman Hruska replied, "Mediocre people deserve representation, too." Roman was well ahead of his time. Mediocre people got us Trump.

Merry Christmas to you.

This thread has gotten way off course.
 
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Wow I missed a lot since yesterday. Way too much to talk about. But the WWII conversation has me very interested. No question the most critical global war ever. First of all we think the way we do today about that war based on what we have learned from other people. None of us fought in that war. But a couple of things.

I have never agreed with FDR's economic ideas. However, behind Abraham Lincoln, he was the best war President this country ever saw. There I am giving a Democrat full credit although the Democratic party was 180 degrees different then than it is now. But that is another story.

The U.S. strategic land positions all around the globe were a big reason we won that war. I think I read somewhere in this thread that Germany couldn't reach the U.S. mainland for an air strike and that is true. They couldn't fly planes from Germany, perform an attack and then make it all the way back. So, one of the options they sought was to occupy Iceland. They were turned back several times and very folks know this. From Iceland they could have reached us and would have.

Also, when it comes to the bomb, Germany was very, very close to perfecting it and we barely beat them. Their idea, if they had developed it first, was to launch it from rockets. They were simultaneously working to develop and launch rockets and they continually failed. Failed long enough for us to end Hitler's dream.

When it comes to the preparedness of WWII, someone here wrote Germany was far ahead of us and that is a fact. My grandfather came to the U.S. from Germany in 1921. My grandmother, from Vienna, Austria in 1922. My grandfather fought in WWI for Kaiser Wilhelm II. By the way he was Germany's last Kaiser. They both left when things in their countries started to change. They also left brothers and sisters behind.

Years ago, my grandmother showed me letters she had received from 1935, 36, 37 and 38 from her brother over there who said Hitler was building up the military and they were far ahead of us as far as air warfare went. Their planes were far in advance of ours. Very true. We were not prepared for that war. He warned that the U.S had better start paying attention to what was going on there.

Someone also said FDR had the intelligence to suggest Japan was planning an attack on Pearl Harbor and chose not to do anything. That has never been actually proven beyond a shadow of a doubt although it was no secret he wanted in that war long before we entered. However, a vast majority of Americans did not want in that war. Pearl Harbor changed all of that. Some people say he knew, but some say he didn't. We will probably never know for sure. There is evidence both ways.

As far as dropping the bomb goes, I do agree with the decision. But we have to remember we think and live much differently than those people living and making the decisions 70+ years ago did. Back then we hated the Japanese and the Germans and weren't very friendly to Italians either. Make no mistake. They hated us too. Some Japanese people living here were put into camps on FDR's orders. That wouldn't happen today and the problem is that we think in the current time. A lot has changed.

In my opinion, the biggest mistake Hitler made, among the other mistakes, was to turn on Russia and the defeat the German army suffered in Russia in battles in the bitter cold helped turn the tide in that war although Russia couldn't be trusted.

I will make other posts. But when it came to that war there was no Republicans or Democrats after Pearl Harbor was bombed. There were Americans, many of them who wanted to go fight that war. A close friend of mine whose father fought in WWII in the Pacific theater said right after Pearl Harbor was hit, he and a lot of his friends went to the local high school to enlist. Getting that guy to talk about that war was like pulling teeth. But he said the Japanese were ruthless. You weren't going to get them to surrender before the bomb. You had to kill them all. He said the British were tough SOBs. He also said the French were pussies. Hahaha. He was a tough old dude himself. He passed away 10 years ago and I really miss talking to that guy. These people lived it.

Dr. My father was in WW11 he never really talked about it. He was a gunners mate in the Navy. He talked to me one time. He told me he was stationed on a destroyer and that when they shot down an airplane the pilots would aim their plane at the ship. Scary stuff. My dad passed away 2 years ago he never liked talking about the war.
 
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After reading this I am in awe. I wish I had this kind of talent to write so well as you do. This is art. You have quite a talent. Not because I happen to agree. I would say the same thing if someone on the other side could write so well. But no one on that side can or does. I agree on all of your points. Especially on how the election was won and lost. Very well done.

So nobody of a Democratic lean can write? Interesting...
 
Wow that would have been fantastic if you were a little older at the time and he was willing to share his firsthand experience!! As people probably guessed, I am a bit of a history buff of this time period. Plan to take the family to Normandy (have already done Pearl Harbor and the USS Airizona Memorial.

Patton was probably the greatest land war military mind this country has ever produced. After the disaster at Kasserime Pass and using inferior weapons and equipment what his army was able to accomplish is astounding. Now I am not giving him a total pass on his shortcomings (they are there with bells on) but in a life and death struggle I think history should mostly give him a pass.

I doubt there will be another generation that does as much and gives as much for the country as "the greatest generation" did. Hopefully that won't be forgotten over time and the generations shortcomings can still be acknowledged alongside with the great things they did, but not have the shortcomings be the primary focus.
There was one U.S. general Hitler truly feared and it was Patton. Have you ever read the book "Killing Patton?" It is an excellent read. Patton was ruthless with the Germans and he had to be.
 
Dr. My father was in WW11 he never really talked about it. He was a gunners mate in the Navy. He talked to me one time. He told me he was stationed on a destroyer and that when they shot down an airplane the pilots would aim their plane at the ship. Scary stuff. My dad passed away 2 years ago he never liked talking about the war.
Another example of what we are saying. Not many of those guys did like talking about that war. They saw and experienced things that none of us on this board have ever experienced and we are lucky for that. Most people in this country have never seen the horrors of war. How lucky we are.
 
MWittman:

A few things. Personally I am weary of all of the character assassinations of both candidates. For every one you hear from one side, you'll hear one from the other side. No one really gets traction on either side when it comes to this and in the end we get nowhere. They have their opinion, we have ours.

With that said, I would like to say I did not vote for Trump in the primary. Of course, I didn't vote for Romney in 2012 or McCain in the 2008 primaries either. But like most people, when the nominations were clinched I went to my party because the alternative would be a disaster in my mind. The opposite side felt the same way as we have seen here and in other places.

I have never been a one issue guy. But, one of the reasons I voted the way I did was purely economics, which drove the vote in the end. That and change. It is extremely difficult for one party to keep Presidential control for 12 years. It has only happened once in my lifetime. I really believe, if the economy was as good as the current administration said it is and if people actually felt it, Hillary would have won easily.

However, I always thought Trump "could" win. I never went around saying it was in the bag, because it wasn't for either. I felt like Hillary would trip herself up some way. God knows, Trump sure as hell tried to trip himself up time and again.The truth is, Hillary is just not a closer. Obama defeated her in 2008 and Trump sent her into retirement in 2016. It appears that regardless of the mistakes Trump made, enough people were tired of the status quo.

In truth, I never saw Hillary to be the threat that Bernie Sanders was. I was very concerned about him. He was drawing large crowds and he had a movement going and was offering change. Thank God that people like Debbie Wasserman Schultz, John Podesta and Donna Brazile were working behind the scenes to sabotage Bernie's campaign as many emails have proved. You had Brazile providing Hillary with a Democratic debate question beforehand when she went up against Bernie on CNN. I think Bernie may well have won but the DNC took him out because they thought it was going to be a slam dunk for Hillary and they didn't want Bernie. Huge mistake. Yuuuuge!
I read an article right after the conventions. if I can find it I will give you the date, paper and author. But in that article the author was going on and on about how Reince Priebus of the RNC made a big mistake in letting the nomination go to Trump. He went on to say that the DNC was much smarter to keep Bernie out and give Hillary the nod because she would get more votes. He also said the actions of Priebus was going to cost the Republicans the election. Wrong.

Both candidates were flawed. Everyone will agree on that. But I think both Trump and Sanders had a real emotional connection with their supporters that Hillary just didn't have with hers. Both of those guys' crowds were much larger than Hillary's. It wasn't close. But, some people in the media said that didn't make a difference. That goes to show you how out of touch the elite media is in this country when it comes to reading the tea leaves. They all missed on this one big time.

Moving forward, I have no idea what kind of President Trump is going to be. But barring something crazy happening tomorrow, he will be walking into the White House on January 20, 2017. That is reality.
 
Not really...

"But no one on that side can or does."
Ok good point. However. I am speaking about those who write here. Not all Dems. Let me clean it up by saying no one on this board writes as well as MWittman. OK?
 
Moving forward, I have no idea what kind of President Trump is going to be. But barring something crazy happening tomorrow, he will be walking into the White House on January 20, 2017. That is reality.
And he won't have an obstructionist Congress to contend with. He should have no excuses for getting his agenda, whatever that may be, through and passed. Those conflicts of interest with his kids and business interests could be a stumbling block, not to mention his lack of intellect and emotional control. But, let's see what the orange menace can accomplish.
 
And he won't have an obstructionist Congress to contend with. He should have no excuses for getting his agenda, whatever that may be, through and passed. Those conflicts of interest with his kids and business interests could be a stumbling block, not to mention his lack of intellect and emotional control. But, let's see what the orange menace can accomplish.


The consensus by America was these were the best two candidates we could come up with? Really! Many Americans voted for a change not necessarily for republicans or democrat. Americans were unsure who to vote for and that's why nobody even admits to voting for Trump. I saw shirts that said "I already hate our next president" months before the election. Amazing but a lot of people voted for Trump but are ashamed to admit it. Americans were tired of the same old sh#t they seen the past 8 years. In the end will see how Trump fairs, that chapter still needs to be written. America figured out that Hillary wasn't the answer and she couldn't be trusted. Reality is we got the lessor of two evils and a change.
God Bless us all.
 
And he won't have an obstructionist Congress to contend with. He should have no excuses for getting his agenda, whatever that may be, through and passed. Those conflicts of interest with his kids and business interests could be a stumbling block, not to mention his lack of intellect and emotional control. But, let's see what the orange menace can accomplish.
Very cordial post here. Obama didn't have an obstructionist congress or Senate either from 2009 - 2011. If they lost the house in 2011, which they did, it was their faults and the fault of Nancy Pelosi because they had a huge majority there. I believe it was the largest number of U.S. House seat losses in one election in history. Not sure though. Would you like me to show you the numbers Obama and the Democrat party had across the nation in 2009 when he walked into the White house and what those numbers will be when Trump walks in in 2017? Because the Democrat numbers have been decimated since 2009. Not good for them. I will be happy to do that for you if you request. I smell sour grapes here, yes? But I should give the community organizer a lot of credit. Yes, I am going to give him some credit here. Barack Obama, with a little help from Pelosi and Harry Reid and yes Hillary too, has been more instrumental in the growth of the Republican party since Ronald Reagan. Thank you Barack, Nancy, Harry and you too Hillary. If they really want to know why they lost the election and have lost all those numbers all they have to do is look in the mirror to find their answer.
 
Sexism is alive and well.

Marilyn Quayle might be very talented, but you have to question her judgement in husbands. A complete dud.
I couldn't agree more. Yes, sexism is alive and well.

Come on MC63, you can do better than this can't you? Now, you are really going to question a woman's judgement on who she picks as a spouse? This quote is incredibly offensive and sexist. And here you are as usual, preaching to us about sexism and you post this. To people like you, sexist talk and comments written are only done by people on the right. Sexism is a two way street, just like racism. You don't get to decide alone what is and isn't sexist.

Does this mean we can question Hillary's judgement on who she picked for a spouse? Or Michelle Obama? Or any other woman? Does this mean people can question your wife's judgement or my wife? Do you have any idea what you are doing here? Do you even re-read your posts to correct anything?

This is by far the most offensive thing I have ever read here and that takes in a lot of reading. Just who in hell do you think you are? God? Who are you to judge a woman as to who she decides to marry?

I loathe the Clintons, but I would never question Hillary's judgement in picking a spouse and never have. Know why? Because it is none of my business and it's none of yours either. I would never even think of it let alone write it somewhere. I don't question anyone's judgement when they pick a spouse because it is serious business. This isn't even a funny joke.

But, this is what we get from you time and again and this is why so many people here don't respect you or your opinions. You are incredibly arrogant and no one likes an arrogant person. Just how far down into the sewer are you going to go?

I am sure a retraction or apology is as about as likely as finding a unicorn. Because in your arrogance you are never wrong. You are a little man.
 
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You've jumped the shark ... finally ... it's happened.
No, you did you hypocrite a-hole. You are such an elitist snob it's disgusting. You are the one who went over the edge with your nonsense about who YOU think a woman should marry and it was insulting and shows, once again, your colossal ignorance.

All, I can say is that if we were standing next to each other and you made a comment like that about any woman, I would knock your dusty old ass out.

This is again exactly why a lot of people here have no respect for you or your posts filled with hypocrisy and ignorance. You are a small man.
 
No, you did you hypocrite a-hole. You are such an elitist snob it's disgusting. You are the one who went over the edge with your nonsense about who YOU think a woman should marry and it was insulting and shows, once again, your colossal ignorance.

All, I can say is that if we were standing next to each other and you made a comment like that about any woman, I would knock your dusty old ass out.

This is again exactly why a lot of people here have no respect for you or your posts filled with hypocrisy and ignorance. You are a small man.

Wow. Another keyboard tough guy. Did you really just write that. And you are calling him a bully?
 
Wow. Another keyboard tough guy. Did you really just write that. And you are calling him a bully?
I never called him a bully. Check to see. Not a keyboard tough guy and not a threat of what will happen in the future. Just pissed at that post. The guy is an a-hole, arrogant hypocrite. Goes on and on about sexism then posts that. What a jag.

A lot of people in the public school system look at people in the private school system and call them arrogant, etc. It is guys like him who are the reason for that.

No, I am not a keyboard tough guy. But he is the board a-hole. There is always an a-hole in every crowd that guy is the a-hole here. He thinks he's tough guy by picking on a woman's judgement as to who she should marry. Takes a real man to do that in his world.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn he went around hitting girls when he was young.
 
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