Yesterday's blowouts...wake up IHSA!

[Ndrfootball1132]

Tim Racki has been at Naz for 12 years- 6 years in playoffs 6 years not. (5 years of sub 5 wins). Yes he has won 2 state titles( back to back) but his did not happen overnight. 3 short years ago they were 5-4 and no playoffs. He is a very good coach winning titles at Discroll as well,but he is equally a very good recruiter. Recruiting not just players but very talented players from a wide area of Chicagoland. (If the previous post is correct 30 miles- Aurora to Joliet to Highland Park and all of Chicago). I tell the public schools to do better in keeping players in their districts and create the buzz and excitement in their program. That said players closer to a private school (realistically 10-15 mile radius) may have personal, familial reason to attend and nothing can be done about those players.
The teams that constantly come up are Loyola, Montini. JCA, Mt Carmel, SHG and now Naz ( I'm sure I'm missing a couple). Maybe I'm missing something but for these 6-10 programs that from what I can see have had the same Head Coach for 10+ years (but usually a lot longer)we are talking about completely rearranging the structure of the football playoffs? Yes those private schools do have a competitive advantage (for which students/families pay tuition to attend those schools) by recruiting student athletes, but that is not the final answer. They like all programs still have to coach, mold and prepare these recruits to play and then win. A public school only gets what the bus drops off(to quote an earlier post), but they do have the opportunity to keep the players in their districts too!
Who are the best professional teams in football and basketball over the last number of years? New England Patriots, San Antonio Spurs... Are these teams loaded with all the superstars? They have some very good players but they play as a team, do the little things right and put themselves in position to win. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. Public schools can and have won Championships. GBW won this year (again)and let's look at the 3 years prior to Hetlet, 2004-2006 they went 8-19 and no playoffs. I know I have jumped around a bit on this post but bottom line sometimes people are better than others, not everyone gets a trophy, the guy at work that drives the fancy car also gets the promotion and a hot girl on his arm. The programs that hire the right people, do the right things put themselves in a position to succeed. We can go at length as to what is the recipe, but that's it for now.

I only used Racki as an example, no allegiance to Naz or private schools btw.

 

[mchsalumni]

grrrrrrrr

 

[mchsalumni]

the private schools have won state about 30 percent. My point is how does this happen with privates only having about 1/3 the amount of schools vs public schools?

You do realize you torpedoed your own argument with these numbers, right?

 

[corey90]

I tried to "goggle" it and a pop up window told me I was today's lucky visitor. Are you trying to give my computer a virus or malware?

Lol
Learn to use a computer. Spin this however you like you know the truth and have to live with your lies.

 

[jwarigaku]

I will agree to this if you are willing to start a state voucher system for school choice.

That's crap. 30 miles is the issue.
If you live in Frankfort you go to LWE
If you live in Orlandpark you go to Sandburg. Private athletes use the same boundaries as publics. All kids who attend privates and do not play sports can be recruited at the 30 mile radius. That spell it out for you? This will allow privates to still get those students for academic tuitions.

 

[jwarigaku]

He wouldn't, but I would, and you have NOT!

If I said yes, would you ever know differently? Way to address the topic... I would try to obfuscate too, if I were you.

 

[corey90]

You do realize you torpedoed your own argument with these numbers, right?

So

He wouldn't, but I would, and you have NOT!

Exactly Bones
Why bother these guys will never change. Why should they their enjoying their unfair advantage and really all they care about is their beloved schools winning state. They all know they have an advantage and they are to smug to admit it. this crap has been going on for many years this is not new. Look across the country their are several states dealing with the same issue. Most have separated privates and publics because of it. I would hate to see that happen but these hard heads make you want puke.

 

[ramblinman]

So


Exactly Bones
Why bother these guys will never change. Why should they their enjoying their unfair advantage and really all they care about is their beloved schools winning state. They all know they have an advantage and they are to smug to admit it. this crap has been going on for many years this is not new. Look across the country their are several states dealing with the same issue. Most have separated privates and publics because of it. I would hate to see that happen but these hard heads make you want puke.

Didn't you get the memo? There is no competitive advantage anymore. Your multiplier and success factor have addressed whatever advantage you think there is.

 

[ramblinman]

To me, what ruins competition is super teams that 90% of the class who all happen to be closed boundary have no hope against.

You mean like Rochester?

 

[JCHILLTOPPERS]

Didn't you get the memo? There is no competitive advantage anymore. Your multiplier and success factor have addressed whatever advantage you think there is.

i mean, what more could you want?

because of the rules, a private team can no longer win a title without a controversy, de facto. If a private team wins a title, they must have been in the wrong class so they are bumped up...once you get to 8a, it will just always be that that privates have a "recruiting advantage."

seriously, what else can anyone want to be done?

 

[Ndrfootball1132]

Have the private champion play the public champion ???

 

[pjjp]

i mean, what more could you want?

because of the rules, a private team can no longer win a title without a controversy, de facto. If a private team wins a title, they must have been in the wrong class so they are bumped up...once you get to 8a, it will just always be that that privates have a "recruiting advantage."

seriously, what else can anyone want to be done?

Not sure what else can be done. That's why I think separation is inevitable. I sense the public school majority is at the point of throwing up their hands and asking, like you, what else can be done? The idea will be floated this year with some type of proposal. It probably won't pass at first, but will some time in the next few years.

 

[LHSTigers94]

i mean, what more could you want?

because of the rules, a private team can no longer win a title without a controversy, de facto. If a private team wins a title, they must have been in the wrong class so they are bumped up...once you get to 8a, it will just always be that that privates have a "recruiting advantage."

seriously, what else can anyone want to be done?

I have never heard a complaint about MC or LA championship. No one complained about Naz 6A either, at least to my knowledge. I hear a lot about coaching and program when it comes to public schools. My question is if great coaching and great programs are the keys to success, why would schools whine about the SF and the multiplier? If you have both you should be willing to play anybody at anytime right?

 

[Cross Bones]

i mean, what more could you want?

because of the rules, a private team can no longer win a title without a controversy, de facto. If a private team wins a title, they must have been in the wrong class so they are bumped up...once you get to 8a, it will just always be that that privates have a "recruiting advantage."

seriously, what else can anyone want to be done?

Well, yeah... We're talking about schools that gather their enrollment in completely different ways so if we're talking about a school of 700 beating Glenbard West, we know its not a closed boundary school, and not due to the private contention that somehow all coaches in small public schools are stooges and the students there are lazy bums because they can't compete with private schools that even @cornerrat agrees have an advantage... When it suits him best. And he's the ramblinman of SHG.

Have to ask how a school of 700 would be able to beat a GBW, no?

So I somewhat agree with you, and you with me. How do you classify open enrollment schools in relation to closed boundaried schools?

Same way I would look at my Raiders if they magically ended up playing a 1A public school. I wouldn't tell them they need to work hard and get better coaching, they'd be clearly outmatched even in a down year.

 

[ramblinman]

Have to ask how a school of 700 would be able to beat a GBW, no?

GBW with its 2280 students crushed Lyons and their 3960 students. How did that happen, Bones?

MC is a school of 668 boys. It has a doubled enrollment of 1336. GBW is at 2280. How does a school of 1336 beat a school of 2280? Well, this year, GBW beat everybody -- including MC and their 1336 doubled enrollment and the Brook with its 3560 students..

Phillips has 559 students. How do they beat much larger schools like Simeon, Fenwick and Carmel?

Smaller schools beat larger schools ALL THE TIME. That is why classification by enrollment is a flawed system from the standpoint of level of competition. Libertyville is a school of 1969 students. This past season, they beat the snot out of Warren, a school of 4275 students. L'ville could have easily competed in 8A. Given Marist's draw, they could have made it to the finals. They destroyed three 8A opponents during the regular season. Give me my choice of opponents in the 8A title game between Marist, L'ville and GBW, and I pick Marist hands down.

 

[anon_4vszfu35bv677]

How come it cost less per student for a family to send their kid to a private school then is does for the government per student in the public schools? I think if you think this over you will find the answer to your own question.

The answer to this question is that public schools have to educate all children including kids who need special education services and other special needs. Private schools aren't required to do so. Some do, most don't

 

[Wassup13]

The answer to this question is that public schools have to educate all children including kids who need special education services and other special needs. Private schools aren't required to do so. Some do, most don't

Yes, great point there and I was thinking about this when I wrote it but I still think there is wasted govt. $$$ in the public school system.

 

[SOUTHSIDECFD]

If you took away the multiplier the publics would win 7 and 8A every year.

 

[anon_4vszfu35bv677]

Is it elitism when the public cabal of bones, corey, lweastdad, HHSTF, et al are calling for separation?

Ramblinman, I have never called for separation. I did say when you talked about the NIPL and I told you to not let the door hit you in the a$$ on the way out.

You however have called for separation for years(see every post about the NIPL) I asked you why it hasn't happened and I quoted form the CCL website which says
"Though there was a multitude of objections from many in the Catholic League to the decision to join IHSA, the benefits that have accrued to the Catholic League schools and students since 1974 have far outweighed the original objections"

So obviously the only ones who wanted separation are the fans like you.

 

[Wassup13]

That is why classification by enrollment is a flawed system from the standpoint of level of competition. .

All systems will be flawed but the total enrollment numbers is the best classification with a sport which for the most part requires "depth" for success. It's the only sport you need to have 50 players on the team to have quality practices and backup for games.

Wassup

 

[SOUTHSIDECFD]

Whatever
Your trying to hold on to the unfair advantage with recruiting. Let all the public schools recruit. You still haven't answered how 331 privates can will at such a rate compared to 1188 publics. How does threat happen? Recruiting that's how.

How did Phillips win this year? Transfers. Simon in basketball for a decade? Transfers. Curie basketball last year? Transfers and use more than 10 players scholastically ineligible HF girls basketball? Transfers ESL? Just recruit out of district or the state. You just had two players get charged with crimes that live nowhere where they played. Remember when they found Derrick Rose's fraudulent transcripts they also found numerous FB BB and baseball players in those boxes too.

http://www.chicagoreader.com/Bleade...-controversies-were-reported-by-the-sun-times

 

[ramblinman]

Ramblinman, I have never called for separation. I did say when you talked about the NIPL and I told you to not let the door hit you in the a$$ on the way out.

You however have called for separation for years(see every post about the NIPL) I asked you why it hasn't happened and I quoted form the CCL website which says
"Though there was a multitude of objections from many in the Catholic League to the decision to join IHSA, the benefits that have accrued to the Catholic League schools and students since 1974 have far outweighed the original objections"

So obviously the only ones who wanted separation are the fans like you.

My bad. I can't recall if you want separation or if you just want to multiply private schools into oblivion.

As for the website, how naïve can you be? Do you really think that the CCL is going to complain about the discriminatory policies of the IHSA against private schools on its website? Or are they going to try to put their own history in the best possible light?

I know who wrote that blurb about the Catholic League decision to join the IHSA. It was written by Jim Arimond who was the Headmaster of Loyola and the President of the Chicago Catholic League back when it joined the IHSA in 1974. If you ask me, old Father Jim has more than just a little skin in the CCL-in-the-IHSA game and it behooves/suits him to put the best possible spin on the fateful decision that he helped to direct. If I am not mistaken, that blurb was written many many years ago, as in pre-world wide web. I wonder if Father Jim has changed his tune any since the advent of the multiplier, success factor, etc..

Or, perhaps Father Jim is like me and just really really likes it when private schools beat public schools. Perhaps those are the benefits to which he refers.

 

[anon_4vszfu35bv677]

you've still not laid out what a private school district looks like

How about a defined number of parishes?

 

[stonedlizard]

So I somewhat agree with you, and you with me. How do you classify open enrollment schools in relation to closed boundaried schools?

This is the question, and one that I personally believe can be answered without separating the two groups. Both have advantages and disadvantages and both have schools that far exceed the standard and who fall far from reaching that standard.

Enrollment is clearly an objective way of classifying schools that achieve that enrollment in the same manor. However, enrollment similarity, regardless of how it is achieved, does not equal competitive equity; even in cases of schools earning that enrollment under the same constraints.

We live in the era of Big Data and massive computing power. Why not turn to those capabilities? What's the Massey rating of the top 256 teams in Illinois but an objective way to classify them into 8 competitive tiers?

 

[Snetsrak61]

Big data and computing rely on quality data. Not sure you're gonna get that from a pool of 256.

 

[anon_4vszfu35bv677]

My bad. I can't recall if you want separation or if you just want to multiply private schools into oblivion.

As for the website, how naïve can you be? Do you really think that the CCL is going to complain about the discriminatory policies of the IHSA against private schools on its website? Or are they going to try to put their own history in the best possible light?

I know who wrote that blurb about the Catholic League decision to join the IHSA. It was written by Jim Arimond who was the Headmaster of Loyola and the President of the Chicago Catholic League back when it joined the IHSA in 1974. If you ask me, old Father Jim has more than just a little skin in the CCL-in-the-IHSA game and it behooves/suits him to put the best possible spin on the fateful decision that he helped to direct. If I am not mistaken, that blurb was written many many years ago, as in pre-world wide web. I wonder if Father Jim has changed his tune any since the advent of the multiplier, success factor, etc..

Or, perhaps Father Jim is like me and just really really likes it when private schools beat public schools. Perhaps those are the benefits to which he refers.

Just saying what your own website says. They could have just said that in 1974, the CCL joined the IHSA and left it at that. They did not have to state what they did. You may think I'm naive but actions speak louder than words

And the fact is that after all of this meshuggah with multipliers and success factors, the CCL is STILL in the IHSA which shows that they want to be there. Again, actions speak louder than words, even if you don't agree

 

[Snetsrak61]

How about a defined number of parishes?

I think that might be pretty easy to abuse itself, particularly since parishes don't have defined lines. Grade school parishes frequently pull from outside their towns. And I guess it means if you live in a town with an underperforming high school you cant go public to private from Grammer school to high school and play sports?

It just doesn't make sense to say that Naz, for instance, can only pull athletes from St Cletus and St Francis (just a guess) or even say LT district boundaries. Kids want to be involved in sports and if you tell a kid from Westchester or Berwyn he can't play sports at Naz, he's not going to attend and Naz is going to lose any motivation to be in the IHSA because they have to recruit to keep their doors open (not even from a sports sense, but just at all) and sports are just as important to the worst kid on the team as it is the top athletes in selling kids and their parents on a all-around high school experience. Now Naz is better off than many in that they are turning away applicants each year. Most private schools aren't in this position and restricting their recruitment pool under 30 miles would just accelerate their departure from the ihsa.

 

[stonedlizard]

Big data and computing rely on quality data. Not sure you're gonna get that from a pool of 256.

Massey's ratings apply to every team in Illinois. In theory, you could use those ratings to rank the 256 teams that make the playoffs into 8 classes or tiers based on competitive equity. Would suggest taking a look at the theory behind the rating system sometime.

 

[Snetsrak61]

Massey's ratings apply to every team in Illinois. In theory, you could use those ratings to rank the 256 teams that make the playoffs into 8 classes or tiers based on competitive equity. Would suggest taking a look at the theory behind the rating system sometime.

I know this kind of bleeds into the other thread, but might as well just cut it off at one state title. Little point in the other classes after 1-32. If you don't make the state tournament you can take part in a Prep-Bowl style post season tournament, but you aren't a state title winner. Maybe carve out a small school state series where you have to be in the bottom 25-30% enrollment, but I don't see the point of continuing to hand out a bunch of state titles on the basis of competitive balance just for the sake of competitive balance.

 

[ramblinman]

It just doesn't make sense to say that Naz, for instance, can only pull athletes from St Cletus and St Francis (just a guess) or even say LT district boundaries.

Yeah, the district boundary idea for private schools is whacko.

Take a fine ESCC school like Marist, for example. They are located in a far southwest sliver of the CIty of Chicago that juts west in between Alsip and Oak Lawn. Literally, Alsip is a choked wedge shot away from Marist, right across the street. Under these guys' harebrained idea, a kid from St. Terrence parish in Alsip, just a few blocks south and west of Marist, would not be eligible to compete in athletics. Some kids from Alsip could WALK to Marist in less than one minute. Kids from St. Catherine of Alexandria in Oak Lawn, exactly 1.5 miles straight north of Marist, would not be eligible to compete in athletics at Marist. Rice and Mother Mac are two Chicago schools not that far from Marist and would have similar situations. Makes no sense at all.

Want more?

How about Benet? Benet is in Lisle, a suburb of about 20,000 that has a public high school of about 500. According to corey and his ilk, Benet, a school of 1300, could only have athletes from the town of Lisle.

How about Guerin Prep?

Guerin is in River Grove which is in the Leyden school district. However, they are directly across Belmont Avenue from the city of Chicago. These guys are saying that a kid directly across the street from Guerin Prep should not be eligible to compete there.

According to Corey, Guerin (a school of 444) could enroll athletes from a district that feeds a public high school of 3340 students. But Benet would have to limit itself to athletes from a district that feeds a public school of 500.

Unreal. Seems like a "solution" that Trump would dream up.

These guys say that I am blind. But they are the ones who need to take off their public school blinders and realize that the world does not revolve around them and their type of school.

 

[stonedlizard]

I know this kind of bleeds into the other thread, but might as well just cut it off at one state title. Little point in the other classes after 1-32.

I really wouldn't have a problem with that, but I also think 8 tiers of competitively equivalent classes with the top most tier being the "best teams" is essentially exactly what we have today. Only major difference is the 4-5 problematic privates that aren't classified in today's 7/8A. We've had the occasional 5/6A vs 7/8A champion argument, but there's never been a question with 8A/7A vs 1-4A champs. Would image most teams take pride in knowing that they won their class no matter how their class is objectively quantified.

Maybe carve out a small school state series where you have to be in the bottom 25-30% enrollment

Think you're right here. This seems like a valid approach regardless of any playoff system in place. Small schools have their own set of challenges.

Maybe it's a hybrid approach. Bottom % of enrollment school classified based on enrollment. Rest of schools classified based on some sort of objective formula. I tend to think 6 classes with 1-32 seeding solves a lot. Ultimately, this is just another idea on a message board attempting to solve the apparent "imbalance" without separating privates vs publics.

 

[corey90]

Well, yeah... We're talking about schools that gather their enrollment in completely different ways so if we're talking about a school of 700 beating Glenbard West, we know its not a closed boundary school, and not due to the private contention that somehow all coaches in small public schools are stooges and the students there are lazy bums because they can't compete with private schools that even @cornerrat agrees have an advantage... When it suits him best. And he's the ramblinman of SHG.

Have to ask how a school of 700 would be able to beat a GBW, no?

So I somewhat agree with you, and you with me. How do you classify open enrollment schools in relation to closed boundaried schools?

Same way I would look at my Raiders if they magically ended up playing a 1A public school. I wouldn't tell them they need to work hard and get better coaching, they'd be clearly outmatched even in a down year.

i mean, what more could you want?

because of the rules, a private team can no longer win a title without a controversy, de facto. If a private team wins a title, they must have been in the wrong class so they are bumped up...once you get to 8a, it will just always be that that privates have a "recruiting advantage."

seriously, what else can anyone want to be done?

So basically your saying you believe recruiting has nothing to do with it? Private schools with 1/2 the enrollment can complete and beat public schools that may have twice as many students? It's quality not quantity my friend. LWEDad said it. Go watch the Burros or Falcons feeder programs and see the 4-5 private coaches licking their chops. It's no secret it's been happening for over 10 years. All I say is put both the privates and publics on an even playing field. What is happening and has been happening isn't working. I don't want the private schools to be at a disadvantage! I just want the system to be fair.

 

[ramblinman]

So basically your saying you believe recruiting has nothing to do with it? Private schools with 1/2 the enrollment can complete and beat public schools that may have twice as many students? It's quality not quantity my friend. LWEDad said it. Go watch the Burros or Falcons feeder programs and see the 4-5 private coaches licking their chops. It's no secret it's been happening for over 10 years. All I say is put both the privates and publics on an even playing field. What is happening and has been happening isn't working. I don't want the private schools to be at a disadvantage! I just want the system to be fair.

Phillips has less than half the enrollment of Carmel and roughly half the enrollment of Fenwick. How can public school Philips beat private schools twice its size?

 

[SOUTHSIDECFD]

Phillips has less than half the enrollment of Carmel and roughly half the enrollment of Fenwick. How can public school Philips beat private schools twice its size?

FREE AGENCY

 

[RRH1]

Phillips has less than half the enrollment of Carmel and roughly half the enrollment of Fenwick. How can public school Philips beat private schools twice its size?

It's recruiting and transfers.

 

[ramblinman]

It's recruiting and transfers.

Impossible. Everybody knows that public schools are squeaky clean. Duh!

 

[krock the house]

So Im hearing you want to limit the number of parishes that catholic schools can draw from?

How about a defined number of parishes?

you want to limit the number of parishes that a catholic school can draw from or give them boundaries ?
you my friend are not from the southside of chicago.

 

[krock the house]

A student should and can go to any catholic school they want to...they pay tuition.

 

[anon_4vszfu35bv677]

you my friend are not from the southside of chicago.

Why yes, yes I am. And back in my day the parish you went to was based on where you lived.

 

[ramblinman]

Why yes, yes I am. And back in my day the parish you went to was based on where you lived.

Just curious, did you live in SFDS parish and attend the high school or did you belong to a different parish and attend SFDS?