He wasn’t ever going to change his mind and I wasn’t going change mine. It’s not going anywhere.
Time to move to “Open” Division for Playoffs?
- Thread starter dapiech
- Start date
Disagree. If you petition up and win state titles…more of everything will come.
Ok, that's fair and i don't disagree, but the win state titles is the big qualifier. I'm operating under the assumption that a team petitioning up is going to be less likely to win state titles than they were in their IHSA classification. What team is going to petition up and be equally successful in the postseason? Not to pick on MC but if they are in 8a year in and year out, they are going to go to less state games, and win less championships, than they do in 7a.
I would say the longer Lynch is at MC the more of a powerhouse they will be. He’s just getting started
You're not bothering to attempt to back up your argument. You're presenting an opinion that is in your best interest without backing it up.
So why is this argument in my best interest? My team is LWE. Please explain my best interest. You’re fabricating your narrative.
Here is why Mount Carmel will not petition up to 8A at least for the next few years in my opinion. They right now are within one state title of the all-time record just behind Joliet Catholic. With the parity in 4A-6A, Mount Carmel knows that if they stay in 7A they can expect to dominate that class for the next decade and potentially have a dominant run here of 3, 4, 5, 6 etc. straight state titles and eventually overtake Joliet Catholic. That makes them the most successful program statistically when it comes to IHSA state championships and that is a powerful recruiting too if a student wants to play football and attend the school for other academic reasons as well.
Interestingly enough this is also the reason why Joliet Catholic will not petition up above 5A. They don't want to play East St. Louis who plays a semi-national schedule in 6A, Mt. Carmel in 7A, and Loyola and the rest of the public schools in 8A.
In addition, Mt. Carmel plays Loyola each year. Loyola is solidly in 8A. So if Mt. Carmel can beat Loyola each year they can claim that they are the best team in the state as long as Loyola also wins 8A. And even if they lose to Loyola and still win 7A they can make the argument that they still are better than everyone else minus Loyola.
The way I see it is Loyola is never coming down from 8A, and East St. Louis for the time being will never be allowed to move up from 6A. Those are two nationally ranked Top 100 programs most years so the other schools that need to rely on fluctuating enrollment each year are not going to take a chance of running into a roadblock in those classes if given a choice.
At the end of the day as they say "Banners Fly Forever" so honestly how many players are going to opt not to attend Mount Carmel or any other Catholic School in 5A-1A simply because they want the higher class 6A-8A state championship?
This is why they will stay where they are at unless other circumstances imposed on them would threaten their success model. Only then would they maybe reconsider their stance.
Look at is as the Illinois High School Football equivalent of Notre Dame and the 12 team playoff. Why join a conference and play tougher competition each week if your brand name alone gets you into the new playoff structure with a 10-2 record each year? Why play up a class when you have an easier path to a championship?
You may not like it, but at the end of the day for these schools who are guaranteed zero students every year it is the best formula to ensure continued athletic success and more importantly the ability to stay open each and every year.
But long-term I do see a scenario where the vast majority of the IHSA being public schools forces a situation that makes some of these schools play up in class against their wishes or separates them out into a private class with their own separate playoff structure.
Interestingly enough this is also the reason why Joliet Catholic will not petition up above 5A. They don't want to play East St. Louis who plays a semi-national schedule in 6A, Mt. Carmel in 7A, and Loyola and the rest of the public schools in 8A.
In addition, Mt. Carmel plays Loyola each year. Loyola is solidly in 8A. So if Mt. Carmel can beat Loyola each year they can claim that they are the best team in the state as long as Loyola also wins 8A. And even if they lose to Loyola and still win 7A they can make the argument that they still are better than everyone else minus Loyola.
The way I see it is Loyola is never coming down from 8A, and East St. Louis for the time being will never be allowed to move up from 6A. Those are two nationally ranked Top 100 programs most years so the other schools that need to rely on fluctuating enrollment each year are not going to take a chance of running into a roadblock in those classes if given a choice.
At the end of the day as they say "Banners Fly Forever" so honestly how many players are going to opt not to attend Mount Carmel or any other Catholic School in 5A-1A simply because they want the higher class 6A-8A state championship?
This is why they will stay where they are at unless other circumstances imposed on them would threaten their success model. Only then would they maybe reconsider their stance.
Look at is as the Illinois High School Football equivalent of Notre Dame and the 12 team playoff. Why join a conference and play tougher competition each week if your brand name alone gets you into the new playoff structure with a 10-2 record each year? Why play up a class when you have an easier path to a championship?
You may not like it, but at the end of the day for these schools who are guaranteed zero students every year it is the best formula to ensure continued athletic success and more importantly the ability to stay open each and every year.
But long-term I do see a scenario where the vast majority of the IHSA being public schools forces a situation that makes some of these schools play up in class against their wishes or separates them out into a private class with their own separate playoff structure.
You think very successful schools should voluntarily petition up because it would create a better postseason product. In many cases I agree that it potentially would. That's not in the schools best interest, and more competition isn't enough of a "pro" to take action
I think it’s best to have competitive finals. Teams that win every year or so don’t challenge themselves and thus get accused as trophy shopping. I get it but I don’t necessarily agree with it just because they are within their current class. That to me is like saying the IHSA is correct with their current system. Anyway keep on with keeping on.
As Mr. Taggart said to Hedley Lamar in "Blazing Saddles,"You use your tongue prettier than a --------"
Check enrollment numbers here - https://www.ihsa.org/Schools/Enroll...ns?url=/data/school/2023-25 cycle/enrolla.htm
Bullcrap, MC would play 8a... just tell them. They have under 600 young men, but that's the IHSAs job, why should MC tell them to do it. MC has won titles in 8a, 7a, 6a and 5a, noone else has done that. Just put them there and all public schools will still cry
Because you're wrong and clueless and like all people who need help to be successful
And MC has twice the number of boys as JC, yet u believe JC should move up from 5A?
So you have no real response just name calling at 2:30 AM on a Sunday morning. OK buddy.
I never said that they wouldn’t play up, just that they wouldn’t petition up. 2 completely different things. I agree if told by the IHSA they needed to go to 8A MC would have no problems and do just fine.
Which begs the question on why not? I say the same for others like Rochester in 4A.
Maybe I am wrong in my thinking. I mean I would think as a team you would want to be in the discussion as the best team in the state not just your class. I guess some coaches/schools would rather have an easier road to win a state trophy every year. Just my opinion.
Definitely an argument to be made either way when referring to MC considering they could put any doubts about who is the best team in the state away if they played up in 8A.
However, if 7A offers an easier path and it means another state championship then I could see why when given the choice they would stay in 7A. The multiplier is already a sore spot with private schools so they may figure they are already playing up a class or two from where they would play if not for the multiplier.
I think the problem for Rochester and the 4A-6A privates is how far up do you play? Does a Rochester 6A title hold more weight than a 4A title? Either way you’re probably not being considered the overall top team in the state so why make your path harder?
Not saying I agree with it but as I stated earlier I completely understand the logic of 4A-6A schools being fine where they are at when looking at it from their best interest as opposed to what we as fans would like to see.
I don’t know. JCA was considered the best team in the state a few years back so was ESL. I can see it. My point is these teams/programs are better than their classification and it’s usually an easy road to the state championship and more than not blowouts along the way even in some cases in the final.
I know it would be fun to see for sure. Like in your example if Joliet Catholic were to run through all of 8A and win the state championship and stake their claim to being the best team in the state.
I just don’t see it happening though. The flip side to that coin is they run into a tough 8A opponent in the second round, weather maybe plays a factor and all of a sudden instead of an easy state championship it is a 2nd round exit in 8A.
A 5A state title team would always be remembered and invited back to campus to be honored whereas a 2nd round losing team in 8A would not be remembered. Hence why I think there is no incentive to play up.
I hear ya. I wasn’t saying JCA play up to 8A. I say 6A. MC 8A. Rochester 5 or 6A. I mean play up to where it’s not a cake walk but you have to earn it. IMO
LA has twice the number of boys as MC. I'm talking real people, not some hybrids designed by the IHSA.
MC has as much, if not more talent than during any other era since the playoffs started. They also have the least amount of kids the school has had.
I'd advise anyone interested in Illinois prep football to watch the Barstool interview with coach Lynch. Extremely interesting and enlightening.
Agreed. MC wasn't "trophy shopping" in 7A as the majority of the state believes.
It's just that winning a state championship is an incredibly important recruiting tool and lifelong milestone. It makes no sense to voluntarily make your path harder to please some random blowhards.
Should MC be 8A? No question about it. Can JC compete in 6A some years? Sure . Should Rochester always be above 4A? Absolutely.
But none of them "should" petition up because it risks a lifelong memory for their kids and also risks taking tools out of the school's recruiting survival belt.
As was stated above, banners are forever. Why Rita petitioned up to get smashed in round 1 makes absolutely zero sense. They wouldn't have even been a favorite in their original class.
Players, coaches, schools, and their fans like to win. Honestly, that's the end of the argument. There's a reason that only two (I think that's right??) teams voluntarily play up now. One of those teams is Loyola, and I'm sure nobody would go "on the record" about it, but I'd bet they love being dominate in 8A, but likely also love knowing they have no chance of playing MC in the playoffs too. For the same reason, MC is perfectly happy in 7A.
Yep, the MC staying in the low hanging fruit area and LA opting up to 8A to allow both to win a championship is really a testament to how allowing opt ups is actually a net negative.
I, for one, am all for an 8-16 team open class. Use some algorithm to pick the top 8 or 16 and then let ESL, MC, LWE, LA, Maine South, Cary-Grove, etc. play as the big boys instead of being spread out over 3-4 classes. Would be a lot more fun for everyone.
With 15 State titles how many times has JCA petitioned to play "UP" a class or two?
The same number of times as just about everyone not named ESL or Loyola.
But Loyola's opt up last year actually helped them win a title that they otherwise likely lose to MC in 7A.
Rita also opted up this year, but that made no sense.
Of the 15 titles JC won, "opting up" was only even an option under IHSA bylaws for 2 of them. 2018 and 2021. 2018 was coming off of two non playoff seasons. Opting up would have been rather (insert word choice of optimistic or laughable here). 2021 they were dominant, but not as dominant as 2023 MC in 7A.
As a whole opting up is a selfish fan fantasy. Do we want to see the best play the best in the most competitive environment possible? Absolutely. Do school administrators, coaches, and players give a damn what we want? Absolutely not.
Should schools like Rochester opt up to 5A or Lena-Winslow to 2A? In my opinion, yes. At the same time I can guarantee not one kid on Rochester's team thinks their 4A title is any less valid than a 5A title. I'm sure Derek will be more than happy to keep winning all the titles he can in 4A and not lose any sleep over people who think they should opt up. Could say the same for Driscoll back in the day. ESL opts up and plays a semi national schedule and they've lost 2 of the last 3 titles.
Championships are championships and that's the goal, regardless of what people here think. If Montini had beat Byron and gone on to win 3A would they have thought it was a lesser title because they have won 5A in the past or felt guilty because they didn't opt up to 4A? Not a chance.
When schools win, everyone is happy and enjoys the moment for themselves or for the kids. No one's first, second, or third thought is "we have a great team and may be able to win multiple titles, let's move up and make it harder on ourselves." A team like Byron was only tested once all year on their way to a record setting title run and I don't think anyone in that town feels unfulfilled because they only won 3A.
Should schools like Rochester opt up to 5A or Lena-Winslow to 2A? In my opinion, yes. At the same time I can guarantee not one kid on Rochester's team thinks their 4A title is any less valid than a 5A title. I'm sure Derek will be more than happy to keep winning all the titles he can in 4A and not lose any sleep over people who think they should opt up. Could say the same for Driscoll back in the day. ESL opts up and plays a semi national schedule and they've lost 2 of the last 3 titles.
Championships are championships and that's the goal, regardless of what people here think. If Montini had beat Byron and gone on to win 3A would they have thought it was a lesser title because they have won 5A in the past or felt guilty because they didn't opt up to 4A? Not a chance.
When schools win, everyone is happy and enjoys the moment for themselves or for the kids. No one's first, second, or third thought is "we have a great team and may be able to win multiple titles, let's move up and make it harder on ourselves." A team like Byron was only tested once all year on their way to a record setting title run and I don't think anyone in that town feels unfulfilled because they only won 3A.
This is a perfect illustration of the illogical argument that keeps getting tossed around on here.
"private" and "public" schools are not monoliths. The idea that privates get "more successful" because a bunch of them close makes no sense. Viewing success in percentage terms of a population is nonsense.
If CPS decided to shut down football and close all it's programs, overnight the % of public schools that win championships would skyrocket. Did the publics become more successful? No! There was no material improvement to the teams themselves, the net number of public championships did not increase, you just culled the denominator!
The idea that schools shutting down makes privates more successful is just such a wacked out concept. Shutting down is literally abject failure.
Why?? 2 in a row for a private is inexcusable, but 2 in a row (and often many more) from Stillman, Rochester, Maine South, WWS, etc. is excusable and should be celebrated? What kind of anti-competitive attitude is it that you feel the need to "govern" the amount of success you feel is appropriate? A school can't be the best 3 times in a row?
You must not watch much football if you think talent on the roster directly correlates with wins.
I guess Cary-Grove had more talent on that team than ESL huh? And Camp Point Central had more talent than Althoff? etc. etc.
I don't see where LA opted up this year on their own. Looking at the below list of schools the only two that opted up were ESL and SR. LA is already an 8A school. They have almost as many young men as MC and SR together.
Everything you said is true but privates getting better when other private schools close is also true.
The private backers here can better elaborate but look at what happened to the schools surrounding Driscoll when they closed. Look at the success of schools like Naz and Montini since Discroll closed. When one private closes parents are likely to still want their kids to go to a private school. If that child happens to be an elite football player the new school he chooses to go to would benefit greatly.
Sure, there can definitely be some local lifts to nearby schools. I would argue that the Driscoll example is probably the most "extreme" in recent history - I don't think any program saw a perceivable lift when Guerin or Hales closed, for example.
My point is aimed at those who believe the % of private schools that win is indicative of some unfair advantage, which is fallacy. Take that to it's logical conclusion - if every private school but MC and Loyola close down, and one of those schools wins the championship, 50% of private schools won a state title!!! But obviously that's meaningless among the football landscape in that scenario: Two privates total in the playoffs and 7 public champions.
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