Time to move to “Open” Division for Playoffs?

[dapiech]

Starting a thread on whether IL (like CA, AZ, HI, NV etc..) should implement an “open” division? An open division where a rotating set # of teams gets selcted from an unbiased committee each year based on certain strength criteria. (Like in CA with Mater Dei, St. John Bosco, Centennial etc)
This could end the eternally exhausting Catholic vs. Public debate because of recruiting/lack of boundaries and allows the best set of teams each year to play each other regardless of class. Catholic schools can recruit and pull in kids from any city like they always do without criticism from public schools since the best of those schools will play for the open division. What is the best argument for and against this? It seems to me that the larger football states might also want to consider this as well. (e.g. IL, OH, FL, TX, AL, etc..)

 

[4Afan]

"Unbiased committee", does not exist. After your previous post on this I looked into Arizona's "open" division and it's not actually open. They use MaxPreps algorithm and the top 8 schools are put in the open division each year. This year 7 of 8 teams in the open division are from 6A, the largest class in Arizona.

If IL were to use this same system these would be the teams in the open division.

1Loyola Academy (Wilmette)13-0
2Chicago Mt. Carmel (Chicago)12-1
3Lincoln-Way East (Frankfort)13-0
4East St. Louis10-2
5York (Elmhurst)11-2
6Downers Grove North (Downers Grove)11-2
7Batavia11-2
8Edwardsville10-2
9St. Francis (Wheaton)10-3
10Joliet Catholic (Joliet)10-3

There is no committee and I don't think one would work as they would need to be able to travel the state to watch so many teams every week.

 

[dapiech]

"Unbiased committee", does not exist. After your previous post on this I looked into Arizona's "open" division and it's not actually open. They use MaxPreps algorithm and the top 8 schools are put in the open division each year. This year 7 of 8 teams in the open division are from 6A, the largest class in Arizona.

If IL were to use this same system these would be the teams in the open division.

1Loyola Academy (Wilmette)13-0
2Chicago Mt. Carmel (Chicago)12-1
3Lincoln-Way East (Frankfort)13-0
4East St. Louis10-2
5York (Elmhurst)11-2
6Downers Grove North (Downers Grove)11-2
7Batavia11-2
8Edwardsville10-2
9St. Francis (Wheaton)10-3
10Joliet Catholic (Joliet)10-3

There is no committee and I don't think one would work as they would need to be able to travel the state to watch so many teams every week.

I am aware that AZ doesnt have a committe, but that is not the main point anyways. If there’s some objective way to determine the top 8, great, but not sure that exists in high school football like in college. The main point is whether an open divison is better than our current system and would alleviate some of the issues. with public vs. private. Yes, of course the open division would be stacked with 7 and 8A teams, but Im sure there would be some smaller schools to sneak in as well depending on the criteria.

 

[CIMRY90]

Is the division limited to only the 8 selected teams or is the largest by enrollment remaining teams part of the division to be able to have a 5 round playoff? Otherwise, u would be limited to 3 rounds.

 

[Blacknight36]

I appreciate the thought and am not sure if it's right or wrong. I do know the current system "seems" broken. At least based on all the complaining.

Perhaps the IHSA has already done this, but one would think a committee would review how the other 49 states do it and make a decision on what's best for Illinois. Again, maybe they've done that and believe our current system is best.

Regardless, I'd love for IHSA to take a leadership stance and this topic and make a definitive statement.

 

[epicbret]

I would posit the complainers are broken

 

[RockSoup]

I would posit the complainers are broken

This.

These threads remind me when your college freshman comes back for Christmas break armed with post modern theory for his/her first time. Throw out the objective truths that a few Publics have as much success as a few Privates. And Football is the hardest program to build so turnover is slow or perceptively non-existent. Throw everything into a subjective-claim vortex and voila, the unnecessary gnashing of teeth happens each year.

A talented Carmel of Mundelein is a problem in the same system in which an untalented Carmel of Mundelein is not a problem.

I hope the IHSA only concerns themselves with peripheral items like 1-32 seeding at least in 5A and up.

Because haters have to understand they are winning the long game. More privates will decline in enrollment than gain. People with means and no direct tie (ie employment) to the state will continue to emigrate leaving people with less means in their stead which puts even more pressure on private school’s enrollments. Patience. Sorry Billy didn’t get his trophy but Billy’s kids will have a better shot at one than he did.

 

[mc140]

We have an open division. It is called 8a. Only Loyola has ever petitioned up to 8a.

 

[colin2229]

"Unbiased committee", does not exist. After your previous post on this I looked into Arizona's "open" division and it's not actually open. They use MaxPreps algorithm and the top 8 schools are put in the open division each year. This year 7 of 8 teams in the open division are from 6A, the largest class in Arizona.

If IL were to use this same system these would be the teams in the open division.

1Loyola Academy (Wilmette)13-0
2Chicago Mt. Carmel (Chicago)12-1
3Lincoln-Way East (Frankfort)13-0
4East St. Louis10-2
5York (Elmhurst)11-2
6Downers Grove North (Downers Grove)11-2
7Batavia11-2
8Edwardsville10-2
9St. Francis (Wheaton)10-3
10Joliet Catholic (Joliet)10-3

There is no committee and I don't think one would work as they would need to be able to travel the state to watch so many teams every week.

What was the top 10 when the regular season ended?

 

[Wittymoniker1]

RockSoup typed: "A talented Carmel of Mundelein is a problem in the same system in which an untalented Carmel of Mundelein is not a problem."

This is probably the most coherent, succinct, reasonable and best description of the situation.

This is a post of the year nomination for me. I would love to see 1-32 in 5 and 6A, and maybe Football Enrollment. Otherwise, keep it the same.

Now, let's beat Kenwood, get some more experience for the kids and gain some exposure from the TV.

Then beat Sandburg in Chicago on 8/23/24. That's as far as the schedule goes . . . .

 

[MS4EVER]

This.

These threads remind me when your college freshman comes back for Christmas break armed with post modern theory for his/her first time. Throw out the objective truths that a few Publics have as much success as a few Privates. And Football is the hardest program to build so turnover is slow or perceptively non-existent. Throw everything into a subjective-claim vortex and voila, the unnecessary gnashing of teeth happens each year.

A talented Carmel of Mundelein is a problem in the same system in which an untalented Carmel of Mundelein is not a problem.

I hope the IHSA only concerns themselves with peripheral items like 1-32 seeding at least in 5A and up.

Because haters have to understand they are winning the long game. More privates will decline in enrollment than gain. People with means and no direct tie (ie employment) to the state will continue to emigrate leaving people with less means in their stead which puts even more pressure on private school’s enrollments. Patience. Sorry Billy didn’t get his trophy but Billy’s kids will have a better shot at one than he did.

This is effing awesome!

 

[gobears25]

This.

These threads remind me when your college freshman comes back for Christmas break armed with post modern theory for his/her first time. Throw out the objective truths that a few Publics have as much success as a few Privates. And Football is the hardest program to build so turnover is slow or perceptively non-existent. Throw everything into a subjective-claim vortex and voila, the unnecessary gnashing of teeth happens each year.

A talented Carmel of Mundelein is a problem in the same system in which an untalented Carmel of Mundelein is not a problem.

I hope the IHSA only concerns themselves with peripheral items like 1-32 seeding at least in 5A and up.

Because haters have to understand they are winning the long game. More privates will decline in enrollment than gain. People with means and no direct tie (ie employment) to the state will continue to emigrate leaving people with less means in their stead which puts even more pressure on private school’s enrollments. Patience. Sorry Billy didn’t get his trophy but Billy’s kids will have a better shot at one than he did.

This only means that privates are going to be more successful in the future in head-to-head contest, since only the very best run of the privates will continue to survive. More complaining to come, not less

 

[stripes13]

Does Mount Carmel (not THE Mt. Carmel) move up to 8A next year?

 

[RockSoup]

Does Mount Carmel (not THE Mt. Carmel) move up to 8A next year?

No. If they make it to the championship game next year then if no big enrollment drops, they would be success-factored up to 8A for the 2025 and 2026 football seasons

 

[stripes13]

No. If they make it to the championship game next year then if no big enrollment drops, they would be success-factored up to 8A for the 2025 and 2026 football seasons

Thanks.

 

[gobears25]

Does Mount Carmel (not THE Mt. Carmel) move up to 8A next year?

This is the first year of the "new" two year cycle for Success Factor consideration. So, no, MC (and Naz) classification will not be affected by these two consecutive State appearances

 

[corey90]

This only means that privates are going to be more successful in the future in head-to-head contest, since only the very best run of the privates will continue to survive. More complaining to come, not less

Why wait? MC has proven they can play in 8A..
I mean they can stay in 7A and have a better chance at winning Championships but don’t they want to play LWE ? I mean yes they play LA in the CCL. Is it to try to gain more Trophies for the CCL? I just want to understand the logic. It really doesn’t make a difference to me as I respect and like MC but like the old saying if you want to be the best play the best. Don’t kill me guys just asking a question.

 

[gobears25]

Why wait? MC has proven they can play in 8A..
I mean they can stay in 7A and have a better chance at winning Championships but don’t they want to play LWE ? I mean yes they play LA in the CCL. Is it to try to gain more Trophies for the CCL? I just want to understand the logic. It really doesn’t make a difference to me as I respect and like MC but like the old saying if you want to be the best play the best. Don’t kill me guys just asking a question.

Tell me how it benefits the school to petition up. Is it going to help enrollment? Donations? Alumni relations? No one cares! There's only one reason to do it, and a million reasons not to.

Why the heck would they? It would silly for a high school team that turns over the majority of its roster every 2 years to petition for a higher classification than the IHSA rules dictate. Just to chase some clout that doesn't matter to the vast majority of people? They're not competing for better TV deals, sponsors, ad revenue. This is an old man yells at clouds problem.

Privates benefit from the extended radius, but struggle with a dozen challenges that public schools don't. Their sustainability is much more dependent on the perceived success of their sports programs. It does the school no good to petition up other than make advancing in the postseason more difficult. On top of that, the IHSA already has a fallback if a team proves it's too good for it's class. if a private program is unusually successful (two championship appearances in the two year window), they will be success factored up.

It's the same reason Lena Winslow doesn't petition up, Byron, Rochester, and you can be damn sure LWE wouldnt if they were in 7a for whatever reason. It does nothing for the school.

It has happened in extenuating circumstances (several CCL teams petitioned to stay in their typical class after postseason-less corona year kicked them off the multiplier), so let's not present a few exceptions and act like it's commonplace.

 

[HSFootballfan_007]

Exactly the complaint for years! 2 championships in 2 years from a private school means you are at the wrong level. It’s trophy chasing as opposed to playing at appropriate skill level for talent on the roster

 

[gobears25]

Exactly the complaint for years! 2 championships in 2 years from a private school means you are at the wrong level. It’s trophy chasing as opposed to playing at appropriate skill level for talent on the roster

The IHSA success factors those schools to bump them up a classification. You can't give a reason why a it's in the school's best interest to voluntarily move up, and you ignore publics that are are similarly successful. Why even bother posting such trivial midwittery?

 

[CCLGUY1964]

Exactly the complaint for years! 2 championships in 2 years from a private school means you are at the wrong level. It’s trophy chasing as opposed to playing at appropriate skill level for talent on the roster

I can see everyone’s point in reference to JCA, Providence Catholic, and MC but would the same rules apply to Lena (L.-Winslow), Stillman Valley, Rochester, ESL, Cary Grove, Wheaton North, Wheaton Warrenville South, and Maine South? Loyola actually has a losing record in state finals.

 

[Silver Rain]

This.

These threads remind me when your college freshman comes back for Christmas break armed with post modern theory for his/her first time. Throw out the objective truths that a few Publics have as much success as a few Privates. And Football is the hardest program to build so turnover is slow or perceptively non-existent. Throw everything into a subjective-claim vortex and voila, the unnecessary gnashing of teeth happens each year.

A talented Carmel of Mundelein is a problem in the same system in which an untalented Carmel of Mundelein is not a problem.

I hope the IHSA only concerns themselves with peripheral items like 1-32 seeding at least in 5A and up.

Because haters have to understand they are winning the long game. More privates will decline in enrollment than gain. People with means and no direct tie (ie employment) to the state will continue to emigrate leaving people with less means in their stead which puts even more pressure on private school’s enrollments. Patience. Sorry Billy didn’t get his trophy but Billy’s kids will have a better shot at one than he did.

 

[Silver Rain]

Rock, our posts got mixed up in postmoderism, so neither one exists.

 

[guerinfbfan]

What public schools, that could year in and year out even compete, would consider competing in an "open division"?

Only ones I think would stand to compete yearly are Lincoln-Way East, Maine South, and East St. Louis. Enrollment fluctuations always an issue with the Flyers but they'll play anyone anywhere.

What incentive would the publics have to play in an open division?

 

[gobears25]

I can see everyone’s point in reference to JCA, Providence Catholic, and MC but would the same rules apply to Lena (L.-Winslow), Stillman Valley, Rochester, ESL, Cary Grove, Wheaton North, Wheaton Warrenville South, and Maine South? Loyola actually has a losing record in state finals.

No, the success factor only applies to private schools

 

[colin2229]

Exactly the complaint for years! 2 championships in 2 years from a private school means you are at the wrong level. It’s trophy chasing as opposed to playing at appropriate skill level for talent on the roster

And here in lies the issue that I think the majority of private school followers have.

Who is to say that private schools have more talent and public schools have less talent?

There are other factors than talent. The most talented teams don’t always win.

Why are all the other factors 100% of the time ignored? The culture, work ethic, schemes, admin, weight room, team disciple, etc… Maybe, just maybe, the good programs do all of this better than the others and develope their players a little bit better.

Ex: As a small school fan, the majority of small schools still run the wing T. No private schools (other than Newman) run this offense anymore. If your wingT team isn’t stronger you are at a huge disadvantage. Your kids don’t know how to run routes or defend the pass. That’s your fault and has nothing to do with a 30mile radius. There’s a reason why Rochester has been so successful in 4a.
- This is why it’s so mind numbing to hear the complaints from these schools.

 

[cornerrat]

All...., The SF was a pile on with the multiplier for the privates. Back in the day you could get a double bump. An example of this. 2015 and 2016 SHG's real enrollment non multiplied would of put them in 4A. Multiplied they land in 5A. But with back to back titles in 13 and 14 they are SF up into 6A.

Both of those years the Cyclones finish 9-0 in conference play. Playing teams often twice the size of their actual enrollment in the postseason. Getting beat up along the way. A third round loss to CM in 2015 and Superman took care of them in the 2016 final.

Now the current SF rules have changed . It took the Ihsa some time to do it. Using SHG once again as an example since the SF is applied to them. (back to back in the 4A title game 21 and 22) No more multiple class boost into the playoffs. The Cyclones multiplied enrollment is 884.40 a small 5A postseason team using the 2023 numbers. But the SF recently new rule is a school can not be bumped up two classes from their previous class. The SF takes precedent so to speak for the two year enrollment period in 23 and 24 which prevents SHG from dropping back into 4A if that 884.40 number would happen to place them in 4A over the two year period.

Bottom line is the success factor should be for everyone or no one. Ratsy P.S. A good chance in playing NAZ in 15 and Peoria in 16 would of been fun....

 

[Panthers1211]

St.Francis doesnt survive in open division

 

[corey90]

Tell me how it benefits the school to petition up. Is it going to help enrollment? Donations? Alumni relations? No one cares! There's only one reason to do it, and a million reasons not to.

Why the heck would they? It would silly for a high school team that turns over the majority of its roster every 2 years to petition for a higher classification than the IHSA rules dictate. Just to chase some clout that doesn't matter to the vast majority of people? They're not competing for better TV deals, sponsors, ad revenue. This is an old man yells at clouds problem.

Privates benefit from the extended radius, but struggle with a dozen challenges that public schools don't. Their sustainability is much more dependent on the perceived success of their sports programs. It does the school no good to petition up other than make advancing in the postseason more difficult. On top of that, the IHSA already has a fallback if a team proves it's too good for it's class. if a private program is unusually successful (two championship appearances in the two year window), they will be success factored up.

It's the same reason Lena Winslow doesn't petition up, Byron, Rochester, and you can be damn sure LWE wouldnt if they were in 7a for whatever reason. It does nothing for the school.

It has happened in extenuating circumstances (several CCL teams petitioned to stay in their typical class after postseason-less corona year kicked them off the multiplier), so let's not present a few exceptions and act like it's commonplace.

Tell me how moving up hurts MC? It didn’t seem to hurt LA? Listen if LA didn’t move up to 8A when they did I am. Pretty sure East would have won more championships. I am just asking the question, MC moving up would only make East and LA’s path to a final more difficult IMO

 

[corey90]

Tell me how moving up hurts MC? It didn’t seem to hurt LA? Listen if LA didn’t move up to 8A when they did I am. Pretty sure East would have won more championships. I am just asking the question, MC moving up would only make East and LA’s path to a final more difficult IMO

I also feel the same way about Rochester. Regardless of the success factor they should move up to level the playing field. Winning 4A as often as they have makes me believe they can play in a higher level. It’s not just a Private thing. IMO.

 

[gobears25]

Tell me how moving up hurts MC? It didn’t seem to hurt LA? Listen if LA didn’t move up to 8A when they did I am. Pretty sure East would have won more championships. I am just asking the question, MC moving up would only make East and LA’s path to a final more difficult IMO

You have to first answer the "how does it help the school" question, and if you can provide good reasons, then we can weigh the pros and cons by looking at how it hurts MC or others. Asking how it hurts in a "why not" scenario is moot point until someone can prove that taking action to re-classify would provide a tangible benefit to the school. If there's no benefit to the school it's a waste of time to consider or discuss beyond that.

 

[corey90]

Better competition. Ask LA and ESL why they petitioned up.

 

[colin2229]

Only reason to petition up is if you are so dominate in a given class and need more competition.

You move up for the sake of your kids needing a new challenge. A coaches job is push their kids to reach their full potential.

 

[gobears25]

Better competition. Ask LA and ESL why they petitioned up.

LA is typically an 8a school by enrollment that lost the multiplier due to having no postseason in the corona year. They petitioned to stay in their typical class the 2 years after the corona year due to this, as did a few other CCL schools who lost in the quarters in the '19 season.

ESL is a national powerhouse with the most recruited team in the state by a long shot most years.

Both are unique circumstances, and I'm pretty sure I pre-empted this exception not the rule argument already. See below. Again, better competition in the post season does nothing for the school in the long term. It doesn't help with enrollment, funding, players chance of being recruited to the next level, future playoff success, or anything else meaningful to the school or program. So i argue that better competition isn't a good enough reason to move up, if the end result is likely just less success in the postseason with no tangible gains.

"It has happened in extenuating circumstances (several CCL teams petitioned to stay in their typical class after postseason-less corona year kicked them off the multiplier), so let's not present a few exceptions and act like it's commonplace."

 

[corey90]

LA is typically an 8a school by enrollment that lost the multiplier due to having no postseason in the corona year. They petitioned to stay in their typical class the 2 years after the corona year due to this, as did a few other CCL schools who lost in the quarters in the '19 season.

ESL is a national powerhouse with the most recruited team in the state by a long shot most years.

Both are unique circumstances, and I'm pretty sure I pre-empted this exception not the rule argument already. See below. Again, better competition in the post season does nothing for the school in the long term. It doesn't help with enrollment, funding, players chance of being recruited to the next level, future playoff success, or anything else meaningful to the school or program. So i argue that better competition isn't a good enough reason to move up, if the end result is likely just less success in the postseason with no tangible gains.

"It has happened in extenuating circumstances (several CCL teams petitioned to stay in their typical class after postseason-less corona year kicked them off the multiplier), so let's not present a few exceptions and act like it's commonplace."

Many disagree with you about the competition part.

 

[gobears25]

Many disagree with you about the competition part.

Many on the board, for personal reasons purely based desiring the best possible postseason product. They can't voice reasons how it would help the school, which you are avoiding as well. Take your personal preference out of the matter and look at it objectively.

 

[corey90]

Many on the board, for personal reasons purely based desiring the best possible postseason product. They can't voice reasons how it would help the school, which you are avoiding as well. Take your personal preference out of the matter and look at it objectively.

Helps the school get better by playing better competition. I don’t know how else to explain this to you. You continually to avoid this or don’t understand the logic.

 

[gobears25]

Helps the school get better by playing better competition. I don’t know how else to explain this to you. You continually to avoid this or don’t understand the logic.

I do understand the logic of the general point, but "get better" is a vaguery with no substance. The school doesn't get better by playing better postseason competition. It doesn't help enrollment, it doesn't help funding, it doesn't help donations, it doesn't help the administration. Regularly going to state in 7a is more meaningful than typically making the quarters or semis in 8a to your average alum who may support and/or donate to the program, and is more meaningful to the average incoming 8th grader and their parents.

 

[corey90]

I do understand the logic of the general point, but "get better" is a vaguery with no substance. The school doesn't get better by playing better postseason competition. It doesn't help enrollment, it doesn't help funding, it doesn't help donations, it doesn't help the administration. Regularly going to state in 7a is more meaningful than typically making the quarters or semis in 8a to your average alum who may support and/or donate to the program, and is more meaningful to the average incoming 8th grader and their parents.

We can agree to disagree.

 

[chiliconcarne2]

We can agree to disagree.

You were offered cogent points and arguments both before and after you accused the poster of 'avoiding the topic or not understanding the logic' and finish with that. Nice.