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Thoughts on Class 7A for the 2018 season

How and why are you reading my mind/stealing my thoughts on this one @Cross Bones? Since when did you come around to this line of thinking?
This is the same thinking I've always had. I don't honor not challenging one's self especially after seeing the results enough times to have a pretty good idea of how future endeavors will turn out. I think where you may be not understanding my POV is because outside of Rochester there is no reason for public programs to move up. Plus I don't like the rationale behind it.

This is different from the open enrollment schools, which Jwar seems incapable of understanding. In the case of open enrollment people like ramblinman and others have argued that the multiplier shouldn't be applied to all open enrollment schools because they don't dominate, while on the other side of the ledger people argue that it's too low because once in the playoffs schools like IC, Montini, Naz etc completely destroy their public counterparts and really resemble top class public programs. Although an extremely flawed idea the success factors addresses both sides of that argument by only applying to the dominant programs. There was a thread in which @JCHILLTOPPERS explained why the SF and request up are bad ideas and I fully agreed and for the same reasons.

But the issue that people like Jwar and ramblinman fail to grasp is that there is a difference between open and closed enrollment in the same way there is a difference in enrollments in general. So they see Naz with all their 8Aness and are fine with them crushing 28 other public schools of 700 year after year after year using their open enrollment advantage.

The only actual solution to both of these problems is a separation of open enrollment and closed enrollment. Then we wouldn't need any SF or multipliers for either group of schools. We would also get some pretty darn good matchups that we are being robbed of; imagine Loyola v Naz. I think we all agree that is a fair matchup. LWE v Herrin, not so much.
Stoned,

Bones only has this thought process as applied to Private schools. Doesn’t believe it should ever be done to a public. I believe I remember you and I agreeing that the promotion to higher classes, ie the “success factor”, should be applied universally where as he only feels this should be applied to private schools.

You must pride yourself on being wrong as much as possible.
 
You must pride yourself on being wrong as much as possible.

Bones,

To clarify my own position, I’m fine with the multiplier, it is what it is, so long as it’s applied equally to all open/school choice enrollment schools as well. I’d be okay with the SF if it were applied unilaterally to public’s and privates.

Are you saying that you’re fine with the SF being applied to ALL public schools as well? Are you also okay with the same Multiplier being applied to public’s that have open/School Choice enrollment?

Finally, please try to remember that my kids are now in public school in PA and we compete against private schools that are classed by enrollment with no multiplier or success factor( also no restriction on 30 mile radius, in fact some kids come from the surrounding 7 states). In the case of moving up here, it’s by choice and truly an honor if you elect to move up.
 
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If my math is right and understanding of the system I think they really need to go to the 7a title game this year and the next 2 after that (3 total). Because that would be 4 title games in a row.... 6a in '17 then 7a in 18/19/20. Remember the 14 and 15 title games will be dropping off over the next couple of years. During the 2020 season they will look at 16/17/18/19.... '16 wasn't a title game year so 3 of 4 would still be 7a. That's why 14/15/16/17 (3 of 4) equals 7a this year. I think 2021 would be first possible 8a season assuming all title games between now and then. *That's what I understand but everything I just typed could be wrong.
All Naz needs is 2 7a title appearances in a 5 year span with 1 being in the previous 2 seasons. If they have that then they will go up 1 class from their highest level of competition which will be 7a. So the fact that they have appearances in both 6 AND 7 in that hypothetical is meaningless, just the higher class. So IF, big if, they go to the 2018 and 2019 7a titles games they will be in 8a in 2020.
 
I like the SF (for ALL schools) I just think you should have to actually win the class you are in to advance not merely appear in final.
 
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Bones,

To clarify my own position, I’m fine with the multiplier, it is what it is, so long as it’s applied equally to all open/school choice enrollment schools as well. I’d be okay with the SF if it were applied unilaterally to public’s and privates.

Are you saying that you’re fine with the SF being applied to ALL public schools as well? Are you also okay with the same Multiplier being applied to public’s that have open/School Choice enrollment?

Finally, please try to remember that my kids are now in public school in PA and we compete against private schools that are classed by enrollment with no multiplier or success factor( also no restriction on 30 mile radius, in fact some kids come from the surrounding 7 states). In the case of moving up here, it’s by choice and truly an honor if you elect to move up.
I am saying that i don't like the SF for public or private. The whole idea behind it makes no sense if all other factors are equal. I don't like how it is currently applied for privates because it says that if they win a couple they're in the wrong class and if they don't win they're in the wrong class. It makes no sense. However, as I said previously it does address (or attempts to) one of the complaints of the multiplier.

I am fine with multiplying public schools that have open enrollment and haven't been able to decide where I would put them if the playoffs were to be split since they're like a hybrid of the two. Some CPL schools have figured out how to make their boundary and enrollment situation work to their advantage and I expect to see more of it in the future unless measures are taken. I for example didn't like seeing Phillips in 4A and was pretty vocal about that I think.
 
All Naz needs is 2 7a title appearances in a 5 year span with 1 being in the previous 2 seasons. If they have that then they will go up 1 class from their highest level of competition which will be 7a. So the fact that they have appearances in both 6 AND 7 in that hypothetical is meaningless, just the higher class. So IF, big if, they go to the 2018 and 2019 7a titles games they will be in 8a in 2020.

Maybe I'm reading this wrong but this is from IHSA site and sounds like two class bump from normal enrollment classification for 3 of 4 years in title game and 3 class bump with 4 of 4 years in title game. That only puts nazareth in 8a after 4 consecutive title games. Assuming a "natural" multiplied 5a classification.

In football over four years:
1. Participated in two state championship games.
2. Starting with the 2015 season, schools would be moved up two classes from their enrollment classification if, over a four year period, the school participated in three championship games.
3. Starting with the 2016 season, schools would be moved up three classes from their enrollment classification if, over a four year period, the school participated in four championship games.
4. Schools that move up more than one class due to the implementation of the above criteria will move down one class per year until they reach their appropriate classification for their enrollment should they stop meeting the advancement criteria outlined above.
 
I agree with the winning part. I don't think anyone should be force to move up without winning a championship.
Exactly.

And, I'll say it again. Rochester has made a mockery of the selective application of the Success Factor.
 
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I'm gonna say I disagree that SF should only apply to winning a class. Let's say two schools play for the 'ship 4 years in a row and one school wins all 4, they've both shown they dominate that class. Just so happens one was more dominant. Get them into a class that challenges them.
 
Maybe I'm reading this wrong but this is from IHSA site and sounds like two class bump from normal enrollment classification for 3 of 4 years in title game and 3 class bump with 4 of 4 years in title game. That only puts nazareth in 8a after 4 consecutive title games. Assuming a "natural" multiplied 5a classification.

In football over four years:
1. Participated in two state championship games.
2. Starting with the 2015 season, schools would be moved up two classes from their enrollment classification if, over a four year period, the school participated in three championship games.
3. Starting with the 2016 season, schools would be moved up three classes from their enrollment classification if, over a four year period, the school participated in four championship games.
4. Schools that move up more than one class due to the implementation of the above criteria will move down one class per year until they reach their appropriate classification for their enrollment should they stop meeting the advancement criteria outlined above.
Part of the confusing part is where they naturally land. They've been border 5A/6A, but most recently 6A. So this year they are bumped for 3 title appearances (14-6A, 15-5A, 17-6A). So is that a two class bump from the lowest class they participated in 5A, using the 3/4 metric? Or a one class bump using the 2/4 metric from the highest class tyey participated in, 6A?

If they made the finals this year, they'd be at 3/4 again, all in different classes, but is that two class bump from the lowest class (would seem to be the case this year's classification?) Or is it that you would normally get two class bump from the highest class, but they wont bump you more than a class in one year? Is there som rule keeping them from having to bump two classes in two years, because a finals trip this year means they meet the success criteria with the highest class being 7A.
 
Their multiplied enrollment is safely in the 5a range not 6a. The 2 class bump this year is for 3 of 4 years in title game from 5a to 7a. The only way they get a 3 class bump to 8a is going 4 for 4.

According to this IHSA language the bump is 1-2-3 classes from your natural multiplied class. If they don't make finals this year next year they are down to 6a in 2019 and if no finals in 2019 back to 5a in 2020.

Reading the IHSA language as posted at face value.
 
All.... Getting out once taxed up can be troublesome. Here is how it effected SHG. Ratsy

13/14 Title (5A)
14/15 Title (5A)
15/16 (SF-6A) 3rd Round loss
16/17 (SF-6A) Title loss to PR
17/18 (SF-6A) 3rd Round Loss
18-19 (SF-6A) School enrollment of 648
 
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All.... Getting out once taxed up can be troublesome. Here is how it effected SHG. Ratsy

13/14 Title (5A)
14/15 Title (5A)
15/16 (SF-6A) 3rd Round loss
16/17 (SF-6A) Title loss to PR
17/18 (SF-6A) 3rd Round Loss
18-19 (SF-6A) School enrollment of 648

Ratsy-

Any idea why based on title games in 13/14/16 (3 of 4 years, missing in 15) you weren't bumped up 2 classes to 7a for 2017 or was your normal multiplied enrollment that of a 4a school last year and thus 2 classes was 6a?
 
I'm gonna say I disagree that SF should only apply to winning a class. Let's say two schools play for the 'ship 4 years in a row and one school wins all 4, they've both shown they dominate that class. Just so happens one was more dominant. Get them into a class that challenges them.
What if there is a third school that those two edge out one round earlier four straight seasons?

Two teams making the finals four straight years does not mean they are the lone cream of the crop.
 
Ratsy-

Any idea why based on title games in 13/14/16 (3 of 4 years, missing in 15) you weren't bumped up 2 classes to 7a for 2017 or was your normal multiplied enrollment that of a 4a school last year and thus 2 classes was 6a?

All....
Ratsy-

Any idea why based on title games in 13/14/16 (3 of 4 years, missing in 15) you weren't bumped up 2 classes to 7a for 2017 or was your normal multiplied enrollment that of a 4a school last year and thus 2 classes was 6a?

All.... Nope. The only thing I was told was because the Cyclones made that 16/17 final it would be 2 more seasons in 6A postseason play. Had the team not made the final back down to 5A. I assume if SHG by some chance made this years final they will be "rewarded" with 2 years in 7A. Ratsy
 
What if there is a third school that those two edge out one round earlier four straight seasons?

Two teams making the finals four straight years does not mean they are the lone cream of the crop.
Didn't it used to be if they made the semifinals, not championship?
 
Didn't it used to be if they made the semifinals, not championship?
Regardless, using an arbitrary round, and not just the one winner, leaves plenty of misses. That's my point. Just going off your two teams in the finals for four years scenario, one cannot assume that they are clearly the only two teams worth bumping. What if those teams win dogfights to get the semis every year, and then survive the semis?
 
General question: Is there a place to find the metrics used to come to the success factor policy?

Like the dataset they looked at?
 
Regardless, using an arbitrary round, and not just the one winner, leaves plenty of misses. That's my point. Just going off your two teams in the finals for four years scenario, one cannot assume that they are clearly the only two teams worth bumping. What if those teams win dogfights to get the semis every year, and then survive the semis?
I don't disagree with you on this point. But that is a completely different point of whether you have to win the class to dominate it. Which again I don't like the success factor nor the request up. I just recognize that they are attempts to rectify a perceived problem.
 
I don't disagree with you on this point. But that is a completely different point of whether you have to win the class to dominate it. Which again I don't like the success factor nor the request up. I just recognize that they are attempts to rectify a perceived problem.
I admire any efforts to reconcile a problem. I just prefer ones based on metrics and not feels. There are not stats to support how they applied it...
 
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