The old private/public debate! jeez. still. EASY FIX.

[The Outfit]

if someone could provide a cancelled check or a tuition statement showing that a student has received financial assistance for athletic scholarships that would allow the continuation of the private/public debate! until then- why keep complaining!

until then- remember- recruiting is not illegal! it's done to keep the doors open! Don't be mad ya took a beating! Don't be mad they didn't recruit your kid! Just remember everyone has to work within the rules of the IHSA.

recruiting does not mean kids are receiving financial assistance to play for the school of their choice!

anything else is speculation like aliens, flat earth, and Elvis still being alive!

 

[gobucsgo]

You can make an argument that the kid is a good student. And we want him/her to be apart of this great institution. Parents cleaning the bleachers after the game to work off the cost. Heck. Getting parents a job thru networking helps. There are many ways to help parents reduce the cost of tuition. Not sure how ethical some are. But if it’s legal, it doesnt matter.

It’s too bad you can’t figure out the general population, the population of the school and try to figure out how to come up with a math equation.

Belleville Althoff vs Sterling Newman with both being in 1A doesn’t seem so fair for Sterling Newman. With Belleville being able to draw from a bigger population than Sterling.

Obviously, the Chicago privates like Hope who can draw from Chicago population is different as well.

I dont care if all the privates won 1 - 8A as long as there was a fair way for the school enrollment to reflect the school population versus the population that the school can get from the surrounding communities.

 

[The Outfit]

You can make an argument that the kid is a good student. And we want him/her to be apart of this great institution. Parents cleaning the bleachers after the game to work off the cost. Heck. Getting parents a job thru networking helps. There are many ways to help parents reduce the cost of tuition. Not sure how ethical some are. But if it’s legal, it doesnt matter.

It’s too bad you can’t figure out the general population, the population of the school and try to figure out how to come up with a math equation.

Belleville Althoff vs Sterling Newman with both being in 1A doesn’t seem so fair for Sterling Newman. With Belleville being able to draw from a bigger population than Sterling.

Obviously, the Chicago privates like Hope who can draw from Chicago population is different as well.

I dont care if all the privates won 1 - 8A as long as there was a fair way for the school enrollment to reflect the school population versus the population that the school can get from the surrounding communities.

they have to stay within the boundaries... is it 50 mile or 20 mile radius?

i am sure i am missing some other private schools (not just catholic) Leo, DelaSalle, Mt Carmel, Saint Rita, Bro Rice all battle for the same kids.

It's freedom of choice i guess. Go where you want as far as the private schools within the boundaries.

my post is all ignotated from the Anticoch DC complaining. calling other schools all star schools/teams. That just rubbed me the wrong way. Maybe he should spend more time watching film and putting his scripts together than engaging social media... not fair for me to say that as I don't know how much time he puts in to his teams prep.

i should probably apologize but won't,

 

[Snetsrak61]

You can make an argument that the kid is a good student. And we want him/her to be apart of this great institution. Parents cleaning the bleachers after the game to work off the cost. Heck. Getting parents a job thru networking helps. There are many ways to help parents reduce the cost of tuition. Not sure how ethical some are. But if it’s legal, it doesnt matter.

It’s too bad you can’t figure out the general population, the population of the school and try to figure out how to come up with a math equation.

Belleville Althoff vs Sterling Newman with both being in 1A doesn’t seem so fair for Sterling Newman. With Belleville being able to draw from a bigger population than Sterling.

Obviously, the Chicago privates like Hope who can draw from Chicago population is different as well.

I dont care if all the privates won 1 - 8A as long as there was a fair way for the school enrollment to reflect the school population versus the population that the school can get from the surrounding communities.

Most (all?) private schools drawing from larger populations are also competeting with many other private schools for those students.

 

[SEHSSTORM1]

if someone could provide a cancelled check or a tuition statement showing that a student has received financial assistance for athletic scholarships that would allow the continuation of the private/public debate! until then- why keep complaining!

until then- remember- recruiting is not illegal! it's done to keep the doors open! Don't be mad ya took a beating! Don't be mad they didn't recruit your kid! Just remember everyone has to work within the rules of the IHSA.

recruiting does not mean kids are receiving financial assistance to play for the school of their choice!

anything else is speculation like aliens, flat earth, and Elvis still being alive!

Not to be a pain but recruiting is illegal for athletic purposes, per IHSA.

 

[The Outfit]

Not to be a pain but recruiting is illegal for athletic purposes, per IHSA.

no pain... thank you for pointing that out,

i tried to say that recruiting is a must as private schools are private businesses. They must market their entire school experience to keep the doors open.

Thank you for the clarification.

 

[SEHSSTORM1]

no pain... thank you for pointing that out,

i tried to say that recruiting is a must as private schools are private businesses. They must market their entire school experience to keep the doors open.

Thank you for the clarification.

The entire issue on this board is that the IHSA allows private schools to recruit to 'keep doors open' but do not allow public schools to do so without significant paperwork, ie. Maine South and Naperville Central (and undoubtedly LWE) in the past few years.

 

[The Outfit]

The entire issue on this board is that the IHSA allows private schools to recruit to 'keep doors open' but do not allow public schools to do so without significant paperwork, ie. Maine South and Naperville Central (and undoubtedly LWE) in the past few years.

i would question that... the late great Gary Kohornen from Richard's used to openly recruit in his district! many times. i heard him say if he couldn't keep the kids in his district then he didnt deserve them.

Is your point public schools being able to recruit players outside their. district? Is that illegal as long as people do fill out their paperwork correctly?

Private schools have clear boundaries; public schools have clear boundaries... where is the advantage?

 

[Gene K.]

Most (all?) private schools drawing from larger populations are also competeting with many other private schools for those students.

Montini, Nazareth, ICCP, and St Francis all intensely compete against each other for Catholic student athletes, in the Western suburbs. All of them are 5A or below. Putting together a team from those four schools would give ESL, Loyola, LWE, Mount Carmel, or any other school second place status as the best team in the state.

 

[SEHSSTORM1]

i would question that... the late great Gary Kohornen from Richard's used to openly recruit in his district! many times. i heard him say if he couldn't keep the kids in his district then he didnt deserve them.

Is your point public schools being able to recruit players outside their. district? Is that illegal as long as people do fill out their paperwork correctly?

Private schools have clear boundaries; public schools have clear boundaries... where is the advantage?

Per IHSA rules, Korhonan could not recruit even his own district. You must 'recruit' generally and not to one specific sport, activity, etc. So that's illegal. I can't deny that most high school coaches are doing that but that's in one's own district. Now imagine being able to access dozens of districts for their best talent...

There are no clear boundaries for private schools. The rule is 30 mile radius, but a friends address could work. In public schools, you would need to move. If you use a friends address, schools can and will check on you. That would be skirting federal and state tax money. In a private school, it's on the 'honor' system.

 

[618FootballGuy]

My solution. Get rid of the waiver. Consistently apply the 1.65x multiplier to all private/charters/parochial whatever term you wanna use consistently and go 1-32.

 

[Dave Brody]

Montini, Nazareth, ICCP, and St Francis all intensely compete against each other for Catholic student athletes, in the Western suburbs. All of them are 5A or below. Putting together a team from those four schools would give ESL, Loyola, LWE, Mount Carmel, or any other school second place status as the best team in the state.

I’d add Benet to the list as well

 

[crazylegs777]

My solution. Get rid of the waiver. Consistently apply the 1.65x multiplier to all private/charters/parochial whatever term you wanna use consistently and go 1-32.Back in the late 80’s or was it sometime in the 90’s I remember private schools public too? Used to play in the classification by average opponent enrollment. Add up your 9 schools you play enrollment & divide by 9.I know Bishop Mac was an Independent & would play K3,BBCHS,Gary Wirt,Marian Catholic & other big schools so that put them in a higher playoff class & they did not like it.

 

[rfb321]

My solution. Get rid of the waiver. Consistently apply the 1.65x multiplier to all private/charters/parochial whatever term you wanna use consistently and go 1-32.

the reason they put the in waiver was because it was unfair to penalize those privates who are not known as football schools. Originally, it was put in to slow down a handful of CCL’s, JCA, Bishop Mac, Boylan and Driscoll. And it worked pretty good. But if say, the likes of Walther Christian, Elgin St. Ed’s, Aurora Christian or ACC somehow scrape together five wins, do they really deserve to be multiplied?

 

[Snetsrak61]

the reason they put the in waiver was because it was unfair to penalize those privates who are not known as football schools. Originally, it was put in to slow down a handful of CCL’s, JCA, Bishop Mac, Boylan and Driscoll. And it worked pretty good. But if say, the likes of Walther Christian, Elgin St. Ed’s, Aurora Christian or ACC somehow scrape together five wins, do they really deserve to be multiplied?

And then it went from I think a 5 year cycle with I believe 1 playoff win to a 2 year 3 win cycle. I don't believe any of the bottom 4 class winners would have been in their class under the old waiver system.

Why that was changed... I don't know. Best speculation I have seen it was changed to align with 2 year cycle of the I'll fated district proposal (same as for why SF changed to 2 year cycle).

Of course, complaints of fairness existed in the old waiver system too...

 

[jwarigaku]

Per IHSA rules, Korhonan could not recruit even his own district. You must 'recruit' generally and not to one specific sport, activity, etc. So that's illegal. I can't deny that most high school coaches are doing that but that's in one's own district. Now imagine being able to access dozens of districts for their best talent...

There are no clear boundaries for private schools. The rule is 30 mile radius, but a friends address could work. In public schools, you would need to move. If you use a friends address, schools can and will check on you. That would be skirting federal and state tax money. In a private school, it's on the 'honor' system.

This is simply untrue on both sides of your description when my oldest son transferred from a public Naperville school to a private school, he and I had to move, I had to become his sole guardian(court filing), and the public Naperville school still appealed the transfer and it was not formally accepted until reviewed by an adleitum appointed court attorney in Will county.

 

[rfb321]

And then it went from I think a 5 year cycle with I believe 1 playoff win to a 2 year 3 win cycle. I don't believe any of the bottom 4 class winners would have been in their class under the old waiver system.

Why that was changed... I don't know. Best speculation I have seen it was changed to align with 2 year cycle of the I'll fated district proposal (same as for why SF changed to 2 year cycle).

Of course, complaints of fairness existed in the old waiver system too...

DePaul and Chi Christian would have qualified. Christian only has a couple of past playoff wins. Going back six years, DePaul doesn’t have any. Last year may have been the first year they made it a lost in round one. They just grew in size over the last three years

Oh well, pencil in SHG vs Byron for the next two years in 3A

 

[Culldogs]

I’m a private school graduate and we may need to increase the private school football enrollment multiplier to 2.65 or so instead of 1.65. Now with football participation continuing to shrink everywhere, the private schools have an even bigger advantage. Now slush funds paying for some, most or all of elite players tuitions.

Way too many uncompetitive games over last 20+ years in a private vs. public school games. You don’t want to know the average margin of victory.

Joliet Catholic, Montini, Providence, others have won way too many lower class state championships over the years and need to get out of 4A, 5A. Period. Maybe 6A for a few but 7A minimum and let’s see what you can do. I trust you can recruit students to your school without having to brag about football state championships and rely more on Illinois State Scholarships, science labs, etc.

 

[Snetsrak61]

DePaul and Chi Christian would have qualified. Christian only has a couple of past playoff wins. Going back six years, DePaul doesn’t have any. Last year may have been the first year they made it a lost in round one. They just grew in size over the last three years

Oh well, pencil in SHG vs Byron for the next two years in 3A

Looks like there have actually been 3 versions of waivers.

1 PO win in previous 6
1 PO win in previous 4
3 wins in fixed 2 year periods

So I think CC would have just missed in v1 by not 2. Depaul not in either (for some reason I thought they had picked up a W last year, but I guess I misremembered). Thanks for correction.

 

[Wassup13]

I’m a private school graduate and we may need to increase the private school football enrollment multiplier to 2.65 or so instead of 1.65. Now with football participation continuing to shrink everywhere, the private schools have an even bigger advantage. Now slush funds paying for some, most or all of elite players tuitions.

Way too many uncompetitive games over last 20+ years in a private vs. public school games. You don’t want to know the average margin of victory.

Joliet Catholic, Montini, Providence, others have won way too many lower class state championships over the years and need to get out of 4A, 5A. Period. Maybe 6A for a few but 7A minimum and let’s see what you can do. I trust you can recruit students to your school without having to brag about football state championships and rely more on Illinois State Scholarships, science labs, etc.

2.65 is insane. Public schools have so much talent walking through their own hallways but not playing sports. Coaches need to talk to those kids.

 

[SEHSSTORM1]

This is simply untrue on both sides of your description when my oldest son transferred from a public Naperville school to a private school, he and I had to move, I had to become his sole guardian(court filing), and the public Naperville school still appealed the transfer and it was not formally accepted until reviewed by an adleitum appointed court attorney in Will county.

I just saw this reply. My apologies.

I'm not wrong in my statement above. Those are the rules. Now, what I didn't say is that a Principal Concurrence form must be signed by both schools and filed with the IHSA prior to competition. This is how NC got caught cheating 6-7 years ago. They didn't file the forms.

Also, your son transferred. The rule I was referring to was one of recruiting. Meaning incoming freshmen. Transfers are also being recruited now but steps are in place to slow down the public to private transfer process.

Are you saying that you did all of the above so your son could play a sport at a private school? Why not just send him there from the beginning? There could be many reasons, so it's none of my business and I don't expect you to share that on here but if you did all of that for your son to play football or sports at a private school...than that is the crux of my issue.

 

[jwarigaku]

I just saw this reply. My apologies.

I'm not wrong in my statement above. Those are the rules. Now, what I didn't say is that a Principal Concurrence form must be signed by both schools and filed with the IHSA prior to competition. This is how NC got caught cheating 6-7 years ago. They didn't file the forms.

Also, your son transferred. The rule I was referring to was one of recruiting. Meaning incoming freshmen. Transfers are also being recruited now but steps are in place to slow down the public to private transfer process.

Are you saying that you did all of the above so your son could play a sport at a private school? Why not just send him there from the beginning? There could be many reasons, so it's none of my business and I don't expect you to share that on here but if you did all of that for your son to play football or sports at a private school...than that is the crux of my issue.

I did it because there was a significant issue with opiates in the highly rated public school, and my son asked me to get him the hell out of there and in a better situation. He did not transfer into a great and dominate private school football program. My other 3 all went directly to a private school after 8th grade but not the same as their older brother.

 

[SEHSSTORM1]

I did it because there was a significant issue with opiates in the highly rated public school, and my son asked me to get him the hell out of there and in a better situation. He did not transfer into a great and dominate private school football program. My other 3 all went directly to a private school after 8th grade but not the same as their older brother.

I applaud you. Seriously.

 

[Snetsrak61]

I’m a private school graduate and we may need to increase the private school football enrollment multiplier to 2.65 or so instead of 1.65. Now with football participation continuing to shrink everywhere, the private schools have an even bigger advantage. Now slush funds paying for some, most or all of elite players tuitions.

Way too many uncompetitive games over last 20+ years in a private vs. public school games. You don’t want to know the average margin of victory.

Joliet Catholic, Montini, Providence, others have won way too many lower class state championships over the years and need to get out of 4A, 5A. Period. Maybe 6A for a few but 7A minimum and let’s see what you can do. I trust you can recruit students to your school without having to brag about football state championships and rely more on Illinois State Scholarships, science labs, etc.

I think a conference multiplier would make a lot of sense because on the private side you can point a lot of the success to the current ESCC/CCL and even old WSCC membership lines and not any other. And there's some public school conferences you could make arguement for as well.

Football Enrollment with a conference by conference multiplier (which likely eliminates need for any sort of waiver so it stabilizes classes likely).

 

[jwarigaku]

I said this in another thread that thread got taken down. I truly think the adults in the room today are far to interested in making outcomes equal rather than opportunity. I hate to have to say this out loud but not everyone gets to achieve the penultimate outcome of their chosen discipline, but they should have the opportunity and try like hell!

 

[SEHSSTORM1]

I said this in another thread that thread got taken down. I truly think the adults in the room today are far to interested in making outcomes equal rather than opportunity. I hate to have to say this out loud but not everyone gets to achieve the penultimate outcome of their chosen discipline, but they should have the opportunity and try like hell!

Yes! So the opportunity lies in allowing everyone to cheat and recruit! Now we agree on something. Open this up. Or close it down. But this is a broken system.

 

[jwarigaku]

Yes! So the opportunity lies in allowing everyone to cheat and recruit! Now we agree on something. Open this up. Or close it down. But this is a broken system.

I have been trying to be honest and reasonable with you. That said you may be one of the adult egos in the room that can’t focus on anything but needing to win a title, Water down or otherwise, to be validated. This is the problem with todays youth and not understanding you don’t get rewarded for being average!

 

[SEHSSTORM1]

I have been trying to be honest and reasonable with you. That said you may be one of the adult egos in the room that can’t focus on anything but needing to win a title, Water down or otherwise, to be validated. This is the problem with todays youth and not understanding you don’t get rewarded for being average!

You're completely missing what I'm saying but I do appreciate the honesty.

 

[jwarigaku]

You're completely missing what I'm saying but I do appreciate the honesty.

“If you want to be the best, you have to beat the best!”

 

[SEHSSTORM1]

“If you want to be the best, you have to beat the best!”

Right! Do everything within your power to try to win!

 

[AlabamaTimberwolf]

This weekend sealed the deal for a private only playoff. Cheers!~~~

 

[jwarigaku]

This weekend sealed the deal for a private only playoff. Cheers!~~~

Be honest, you were there years ago!

 

[stonedlizard]

If you’re generous, and consider the IHSA to be testing and learning on how to better classify privates, then the next set of changes should better center the pendulum. Original multiplier and success factors went little too far one way, the current waiver changes went a little too far the other, there’s likely a middle ground between the two that balances out private classification well enough.

That said, the same problem, though less profound, still exists for the public side of the house…

1-32 seeding (with plenty of ways to tweak that approach) coupled with the above would do a lot to quell the discontent.

 

[Crispy Linnetta]

Per IHSA rules, Korhonan could not recruit even his own district. You must 'recruit' generally and not to one specific sport, activity, etc. So that's illegal. I can't deny that most high school coaches are doing that but that's in one's own district. Now imagine being able to access dozens of districts for their best talent...

There are no clear boundaries for private schools. The rule is 30 mile radius, but a friends address could work. In public schools, you would need to move. If you use a friends address, schools can and will check on you. That would be skirting federal and state tax money. In a private school, it's on the 'honor' system.

I played for Korhonen from 85-89 and am from Oak Lawn. I don’t ever remember him “recruiting”. But I do remember him encouraging all of the tough, athletic, in district kids that were coming to HLR to play football. We did not have anybody outside of Oak Lawn, Chicago Ridge, or Robbins.

 

[Alexander32]

I said this in another thread that thread got taken down. I truly think the adults in the room today are far to interested in making outcomes equal rather than opportunity. I hate to have to say this out loud but not everyone gets to achieve the penultimate outcome of their chosen discipline, but they should have the opportunity and try like hell!

I'm not looking for equal outcomes. I'm not even looking for equal opportunities. I am looking for reasonable opportunities, and they don't seem to exist for the public high schools under the current circumstances. The probabilities are stacked against them.

 

[jwarigaku]

I'm not looking for equal outcomes. I'm not even looking for equal opportunities. I am looking for reasonable opportunities, and they don't seem to exist for the public high schools under the current circumstances. The probabilities are stacked against them.

What you’re saying, in a different way, is you want to be a doctor, but want to have the field tilted for you to have an easier path to board certification. What I’m saying is you want to be a doctor fine, be an academic equivalent to your peers and you’re good to go(if you can afford to pay so be it, if you need aid or the full boat paid it’s done) you should not be held back for anything from achieving your goal, but you’re going to have to work for it.

 

[Alexander32]

What you’re saying, in a different way, is you want to be a doctor, but want to have the field tilted for you to have an easier path to board certification. What I’m saying is you want to be a doctor fine, be an academic equivalent to your peers and you’re good to go(if you can afford to pay so be it, if you need aid or the full boat paid it’s done) you should not be held back for anything from achieving your goal, but you’re going to have to work for it.

No. What I'm saying (to use your analogy) is I want to be a doctor. I meet the medical school standards and am more than willing to work my way through medical school, but I find the field is tilted against me, and I'm not accepted, because the application rules are different for some prospective students. I found that less qualified students were being accepted because they were legacy applicants. This disparity results in a diminished opportunity for me.

Moving back to the issue at hand, the IHSA uses different rules for private high schools in relation to enrolling student athletes than the rules it uses for public high schools. The available information supports the conclusion that this difference makes it more difficult for the public schools to compete in the playoffs. The disparity in rules has resulted in a diminished opportunity for the public schools.