The 4A Map Just Got REAL Interesting
- Thread starter cigaros
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To paraphrase the "Nature Boy": To be the team, you have to beat the team. JCA is not only the defending 4A champion, but also the defending North Bracket representative. In other words, RB is not yet the team. Can they be? We will see, won't we!
Crazy wind, sideways rain, and freezing temperatures did not help the ball control, run heavy Saint Rita in 2019 against a Rochester which was previously very well balanced, but threw for over 300 yards against a supposedly strong mustang defense. Remember, this game is played on turf in Champaign Which is. what SHG plays on at home. SHG allowed a season high 27 against Rochester in game one. I put zero credence in weather conditions as we’ve had some interesting Fridays from late September to mid October. The cyclones have done just fine.
No doubt a pick ‘em. Heck, PC was owning the game until midway through the fourth the first time they played.
their collapse against JC and later against Rita has become worthy of calling a trend though.
but it is definitely a pick ‘em and with providence at home, I think they could be called a 2 to 3 point favorite.
Do you remember 2011 when an undefeated SHG was down 28-0 to JC after just one quarter solely because of a wind tunnel that grounded SHG’s game?
do you believe this version of SHG to be completely immune to weather conditions?
again, it could be a non issue as it may be 44 degrees and still on championship Friday. But if it is windy or rainy, RB would have to go from a slight underdog to a slight favorite. And if it’s 25 plus mph wind or sideways rain, then that is definitely a negative for SHG.
and Rochester beating Rita happened. I still don’t understand the connection to SHG and RB playing a potential title game this season.
the weather may be a factor. It may not. But the pre emptive argument of “weather can’t slow down SHG this year” seems…odd.
like, I get it Rochester persevered through bad weather once. That doesn’t mean weather never matters.
and again, SHG should win 4a. They have the most talent. But the ONLY way RB or anyone else wins over the superior talented SHG is timely turnovers, ball control, or awful weather. Without any of those variables, SHG has a 99 percent chance to win any game against any 4a opponent. With any of of those variables working to perfection against them, the odds go down just a little bit.
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Pc is extremely young . They have 5 or 6 sophomores starting on defense. They also don't have great depth which could hurt the deeper they get. What they lack in depth and experience they make up in confidence discipline. Coach plantz has done a great job. He has revived a dead program.
HS football is better when Providence is good. Glad their back.
Still don't understand the love which some people on here have for SHG winning 4A "if the conditions are right". FOR THE LAST TIME: THEIR CONFERENCE THIS YEAR, OUTSIDE OF ROCHESTER WHICH WAS STILL FIGURING OUT THEIR IDENTITY IN GAME ONE, WAS PITIFUL, AT LEAST IN TERMS OF IT BEING USED AS A METER TO GAUGE EXACTLY HOW DOMINANT THEY ACTUALLY ARE. I'll go ahead and take the plunge: this lack of regular season tests leads me to conclude that there is no way anyone should be picking them to win the 4A title. All the "contenders" in the North Bracket have had at least two tests of their mettle, and thus there is better info on which to judge them. And lest we forget, there is of course still the matter of SHG getting out of their own bracket. Oy vey!!
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Simply because it won’t slow them down. If we are comparing offenses, which Derek was literally coaching the cyclones from the stands in the 2013 game after winning the night before, it will not matter. Pick a weather day this year and then go check the game results and stat line of the SHG offense. And apply that offensive output to any of the ball control, run happy teams which you feel would stop them. There’s no mud on Memorial Stadium field, so it won’t be slowing down receivers. Watch the Rochester/St. Rita final in 2019 to see how a strong passing offense handles a run happy offense. And remember , son will teach father or father will teach son the insights from with perspective.
as long as everyone puts away the ball control bad weather caveat to beat SHG, I can concede they haven’t played as tough of a schedule. We can go into the subscription boards to find the northern bracket proclaiming how Saint Rita would dominate Rochester in 2019 it didn’t happen. And the only reason Saint Rita did not have a running clock put on them is because Derek does not believe in doing that in a state final. So, northern bracket supporters, put away the weather condition ball control argument and the southern bracket supporters will concede to schedule was not as strong as that of a Providence Catholic, etc. Eight state championships for a Rochester team which has played pretty much the same schedule every year and another five state championships for an SHG team which has done the same proves strength of schedule and weather conditions are not factors to the degree we believe.
What I do not get is the depth of your animus against SHG. In particular your rather astounding and IMO illogical conviction that Rochester improved magically over nine games but SHG not at all. Rochester played all of the same opponents that you think are clearly the worst eight teams in Illinois. SHG beat all of them by as much OR MORE, with less playing time for the starters. Rochester defeated Chatham Glenwood by 13 points in a four quarter slugfest, SHG did it by 49 in a little over a half.
You keep saying all Rochester needs to whip SHG is a home field, bad weather and high grass. The game is not played in a canebrake or bamboo forest and even if knee high grass were possible, Derek Leonard is not Chatham or Metamora turning his own field into a high grass swamp just to win a ball game especially against his own father and coaches he knows almost as well as his own.
If they meet again at Rochester, and my reading of the bracket suggests that as the UNlikely probability the score MIGHT be closer. But the outcome will likely be the same.
But a bad, slick ball and 30 mph memorial stadium crosswind will slow even the best big ten spread teams. I have a hard time imagining it won’t impact 17 year old high school kids.
again, it could be 40 degrees and calm and no issue.
but it’s not hard to do the math….if RB has a normal 25 percent chance to beat SHG, that number goes up to 40 percent with poor conditions or RB being +1 on turnover margin. If the all things equal rating is 45 percent chance of RB winning, a windy wet track or SHG turnovers bring their chances above 50 percent.
this isn’t an attack on SHG. This is true of any spread team with superior athletes to their competition in all 50 states at all levels of competition.
Rochester weathered a storm once against Rita. A windy, wet track was still far better for Rita than a dry, fast track.
even if SHG beats the north winner by 40 in wet conditions, the north winter would still be crazy not to prefer wind and rain. If shg is really better in talent, any variable that could maybe enhance turnovers or increase drops is what the other team wants. That’s true from the nfl down to youth and there isn’t a team with superior talent that ever wants to see wind and rain. This is not unique. If you have the better talent, you don’t want any other variables to intervene. You want your talent to beat the other teams lesser talent. Any adverse condition can do nothing but help the less talented team who would have minimal chance in normal conditions.
Wisconsin, Iowa, and Minnesota never want to face Ohio states 4 and 5 star skills position players on a dry track. A wet track doesn’t automatically derail the buckeyes, but sometimes it’s the only chance a lesser talented team has. and just because Ohio state often wins games in bad conditions doesn’t negate the universal truth of fast and talented teams always preferring neutral conditions.
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I agree. No question a racehorse passing team would prefer dry turf, cool weather rather than bitter cold, and mild or still winds. The biggest difference between Upstate and downstate ball is the tacit assumption of wintry cold and when it will arrive. I've seen both, and climate warming may alter the probabilities. I remember bitter cold and having to sweep away snow one Thanksgiving Saturday in Champaign - but also shirtsleeve weather in DeKalb. We'll know in a month.
Heck, upsets happen and four games still sit in the way. Neither might make it, in which case the whole argument is moot
Your second sentence is just my point. How EXACTLY do you propose to demonstrate that SHG has improved? You have no yardstick by which to judge it. They scored 62 points against Rochester's 27 in the first game of the year for both. You state the score might be closer the second time around. That tells me the Rockets would have improved since game one. How do you propose to show SHG has improved under such a scenario? Would them scoring 80 points do it for you?
Direct me to the post where I said the other 8 teams in the CS8 were the worst in the state. In case you missed the point, I'll gladly reiterate. The people on here stating that SHG has the most talent in 4A are basing it on what, rampaging through a tough league? I THINK NOT!! If not that then what, the points they're scoring? Yeah, scoring against WHOM? Right, that's the point. Actually, I can understand those not familiar with the quality of play in the CS8 this year being influenced by simply looking at the scores SHG has put up. Those who know the CS8 should be more introspective, however.
Fair question. Here in part isvwhatbI am going on. 2013. Cyclones took 13 running clocks into DeKalb, playing pretty much the same teams as now, and scoring at an almost exactly identical clip.
Pundits, mostly Upstate, were chanting almost the exact words I'm hearing from you now. Weak schedule, bunch of pushovers. No chance against Mighty Montini
Result: First of two back to back undefeated 5A titles, second highest scoring team in Illinois history.
So yeah. I am optimistic.
Pundits, mostly Upstate, were chanting almost the exact words I'm hearing from you now. Weak schedule, bunch of pushovers. No chance against Mighty Montini
Result: First of two back to back undefeated 5A titles, second highest scoring team in Illinois history.
So yeah. I am optimistic.
Fair question. Here in part isvwhatbI am going on. 2013. Cyclones took 13 running clocks into DeKalb, playing pretty much the same teams as now, and scoring at an almost exactly identical clip.
Pundits, mostly Upstate, were chanting almost the exact words I'm hearing from you now. Weak schedule, bunch of pushovers. No chance against Mighty Montini
Result: First of two back to back undefeated 5A titles, second highest scoring team in Illinois history.
So yeah. I am optimistic.
Can you tell me where these “pundits from up north” hurt you, Mr. Oldfan?
At this point, I'm just going to say that if SHG survives the South Bracket and makes the title game, the only North Bracket contender they would have a chance against is St. Francis. RB, JCA or Providence, forget it! Those three would literally beat up the Cyclones' defense.
Enough about SHG. We both have made our opinions known and I trust we can agree to disagree. With which team from the North Bracket do you think Rochester matches up well? We might as well be realistic and say that the Rockets could very well be the South Bracket survivor.
I don't think THIS Rochester team would be a fair match with any of the three that I see as legitimate contenders from the Northetn bracket. They are too one-dimensional and too like RB, JC and PC, a running team without a superior passing threat. They lack the size on the line and experience to go head to head and they give up too many points on defense.
Every Rochester State champion shared three traits. A great passing QB, multiple running threats and multiple receiving options. This team has a running QB who is "developing" as a passer.
You cannot go head to head with CCL teams like a couple of rutting bull bison. That's THEIR strength and their whole philosophy. They have access to bigger linemen and usually multiple primary RBs. As best I can determine RB is built along similar lines.
Every Rochester State champion shared three traits. A great passing QB, multiple running threats and multiple receiving options. This team has a running QB who is "developing" as a passer.
You cannot go head to head with CCL teams like a couple of rutting bull bison. That's THEIR strength and their whole philosophy. They have access to bigger linemen and usually multiple primary RBs. As best I can determine RB is built along similar lines.
I was not hurt in any way. And it was a print column by Edgy Tim himself that pointed out that the ,,,"general consensus" on this very board, NOT including himself, was that Montini was an unbeatable team in 2013 and the title game a mere formality.
Except for the 62 points given up to SHG (first game of the year) and the 14 points to Glenwood, the vast majority of their remaining points allowed (56) were by the defensive reserves.
As far as your comments regarding their offense, your point about going head-to-head with the ground and pound of the top contenders in the north has merit. I don't know if any of them have faced a 250 lb. runner, but they are used to defending good runners. I will say that Derek and his coaches will have the players in the correct positions to win. Don't know if that will be enough. Also, Derek would also bring in some new wrinkles to best utilize the players he does have and the skills they possess.
I drove down to watch that game with my dad having just moved away from Springfield. IIRC, SHG refused to play more than 7 in the box. JCA was averaging 10+ yards per carry and JCA's oline was giving the RB 5 yards untouched.
I don't think the wind has all that much to do with Leonard refusing to stack the box. JCA showed off a couple passes that game, and maybe they could have capitalized on SHG cheating coverage, but we never found out.
On the offense side, SHG's line wasn't giving their QB any time and JCA was matching the SHG wideouts and motion out backs step for step. There was nothing given by the JCA defense and it seemed like JCA was bigger, faster, stronger, and had a much better gameplan. I'm sure the wind didn't help, but it had nothing to do with SHG/Leonard's (chronic, flashback to Richwoods a few years before) vulnerability to power running (and poor schemes against it).
Some teams refuse to "stack the box" for fear of giving up the big run on a quick hitter or getting burned by play action. However, if as you say the O-line is giving the RB 5 yards before the defense even makes contact, that is the first thing you need to counter. In that case plug the middle and try to cause a pile up at the point of attack. If a fan of a team on the receiving end of being run on, it is frustrating when the defensive coaches do not employ a proper defense. If the proper defense is employed and they still beat you, that is one thing. But not to even give your team a chance by not utilizing a defense which could work is another.
With the exception of discounting the wind, I concur with your account of the game though I doubt having put 8 or 9 in the box would have changed anything.
My recollection is of SHG having been the #1 ranked team in 6A throughout the year and when the pairings were announced they had dropped to 5A.
SHG had an All-State QB who I believe was named Smith and this was purported to be the best ever SHG squad.
A few years earlier there was a story going around that Coach Leonard had requested and an opportunity to attend a Hilltopper practice to learn how their preparation routine was executed and to see if their were ways he and his staff could improve their practice routine.
In the spirit of sportsmanship and the fraternal loyalty among coaches, allegedly Joliet Catholic obliged
During the pregame warmups, in an unusual and offensive move, SHG players ran to the middle of the field and simulated planting their flag and danced around.
It was similar to the drama Rochester displayed at Loyola last year.
It was indeed a very windy day that affected not only passing but the kicking game too: Passes drifted, were knocked down by the wind, SHG punts barely, if even, made it back to the line of scrimmage and SHG struggled to field Pooch Kicks by the Hilltoppers.
Again with the wind at their backs like in the 1st Quarter, the Hilltoppers scored 3 TDs in the first 4 minutes of the 2nd Half and with that flurry put the first ever Running Clock ever on SHG.
This could indeed be the year for the Cyclones and time will tell.
The ironic and perhaps metaphoric thing about the 2011 Cyclone game in Joliet game was that blustery wind blew from the South to the North.
The Hilltoppers they say never give up their dead when the gales of November come early.
All.... Who were they that "purported" this was the best ever SHG squad? Specifics please. Ratsy
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All.... Regardless of the never ending rehtoric Rochester is not the only one that has improved quite a bit since early in the season. Ratsy
www.channel1450.com
Second Season Preview: Sacred Heart Griffin
Sacred Heart Griffin enters the 4A postseason with a 9-0 record and a 2 seed in the south bracket. Ken Leonard talks about the Cyclones and what the expectations are. SHG will host Spring Valley Hall
www.channel1450.com
I was also at that game. Maybe the wind hurt. And maybe the 4-3-4 defense hurt, but the result was inevitable. Perhaps on a calm field the Cyclones might have scored a few more but JC would still have scored on every possession. They had size advantages, some huge, at every position. Heck. Their BACKS were bigger than most of our line.
All things equal, I'll still take a good passing game over a running game because once the running team falls behind its so hard to play catch up. But especially in the line, that game was like a great senior running team against a good freshman team.
All.... Regardless of the never ending rehtoric Rochester is not the only one that has improved quite a bit since early in the season. Ratsy
Second Season Preview: Sacred Heart Griffin
Sacred Heart Griffin enters the 4A postseason with a 9-0 record and a 2 seed in the south bracket. Ken Leonard talks about the Cyclones and what the expectations are. SHG will host Spring Valley Hall
All.... And the other camp. Ratsy
Second Season Preview: Rochester Rockets
Rochester enters the 4A postseason with a 8-1 record and a 4 seed in the south bracket. Derek Leonard talks about the Rockets and what the expectations are. Rochester will host Effingham (5-4) out of the Apollo
www.channel1450.com
That one clip of the Cyclones trying to tackle the Rochester QB was informative. Tackling him HIGH is not the way to do it, guys. Wasn't it 3 players trying to tackle him? Not one of them was going for the legs. If that's how they intend to defend against runners this postseason, GOOD LUCK! Get them to clean that up, net-se.All.... Regardless of the never ending rehtoric Rochester is not the only one that has improved quite a bit since early in the season. Ratsy
Second Season Preview: Sacred Heart Griffin
Sacred Heart Griffin enters the 4A postseason with a 9-0 record and a 2 seed in the south bracket. Ken Leonard talks about the Cyclones and what the expectations are. SHG will host Spring Valley Hall
P.S.: Actually, it would make more sense to get some penetration and stop a 250 lb. QB from getting up a head of steam in the first place. But again, that's just my opinion!
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All.... Coach Leonard is on record now talking about the defense. He is more than very happy on their progression and where they are at now. Especially with run defense. It will be interesting to see how QB Resetich from the Red Devils who K. L. feels is division 1 talent rushes against that SHG defense. No doubt he is going to run first and throw second for.... awhile Ratsy
If they were named the Avalanche, I would have said Snow benefits them. Playing with words.
OUCH! That was me slamming my palm into my forehead. Good one!
Have you seen any film on him? He may be division 1, but that is obviously all SVH has. They scored 294 points in the regular season and allowed 300. Me thinks K. L. is sandbagging here. 10 to 1 he is challenging the defense to hold the QB under 100 yards rushing. He has been been known to do that when facing a teams' top rusher.
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