Like the IC coach is going to admit to not playing those kids. I'm sure it's exactly what he told O'Brien.
LA 47 ICCP 0 Final
- Thread starter lookoutforliam
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IC now has two losses with DLS and Fenwick left on their schedule.
It will be very interesting to see how many of those nine injured and ill players experience miraculous recoveries this week. Without all of them, DLS has a reasonable chance. Even with all of them back against Fenwick, I think that game is a toss up.
It would be even more interesting to see a 6-3 or 5-4 IC team in an early round 4A matchup against once beaten Boylan or Richmond-Burton...or a 9-0 or 8-1 Morris.
It will be very interesting to see how many of those nine injured and ill players experience miraculous recoveries this week. Without all of them, DLS has a reasonable chance. Even with all of them back against Fenwick, I think that game is a toss up.
It would be even more interesting to see a 6-3 or 5-4 IC team in an early round 4A matchup against once beaten Boylan or Richmond-Burton...or a 9-0 or 8-1 Morris.
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This is just my opinion on this....
IC knew what they got themselves into when they joined this CCL/ESCC meger. This type of scheduling has happened with the CCL for decades now.
Hales, Leo, St. Francis de Sales never pulled stuff like this. Took their lump, moved on.
Not sayin', just sayin'....
IC knew what they got themselves into when they joined this CCL/ESCC meger. This type of scheduling has happened with the CCL for decades now.
Hales, Leo, St. Francis de Sales never pulled stuff like this. Took their lump, moved on.
Not sayin', just sayin'....
As did former IC foes like St Edward, Aurora Central Catholic. Walther Christian, Fenton, etc
Around 2016 IC played us ( Chicago Christian ) and beat us 72 -0. Yep , 72 -0. Our coach at the time, Nick Cook, made no excuses saying only " That's who was on our schedule ". Seems that all their big D1 players managed to play in that game
Maybe a hot take, and maybe not something relevant in this exact moment... But I think healthy full strength IC takes an L against Rochester in the 4A title game this year. IC will not be the kings of 4A. Rochester -13.5. And that's purposely placed before mentioning that IC will get outcoached.
This is Rochester team will rank as one of the top 3 in program history when all is said and done. The defense is the best in Derek Leonard's tenure.
This is Rochester team will rank as one of the top 3 in program history when all is said and done. The defense is the best in Derek Leonard's tenure.
Their punishment should be a banning from Top 25 polls rest of season. Not one other team ranked or near ranked would of pulled that stunt.
Aurora Central Catholic dressed 19 kids against IC last year. How easy would it have been for them to just forfeit and not play?
All for entertainment purposes only but Cal Preps has Morris favored over Rochester by 11 and IC by 14. 4A is gonna be fun this year.
Really Wassup
Did they really have a shot? Hahahaha, just kidding they always have a shot. I totally agree if they were to beat LA it would be bigger than winning state.
I'm not sure why the CCL insists on crossover games they are stupid and ensure mismatches plus when you have 24 teams there is no need for them. They should just go to 3 divisions with 8 teams each and be done with it. The whole idea idea of everyone gets a trophy and should make the playoffs by having 4 team divisions is kind of embarrassing for fan bases who pride themselves on being the elite of Illinois high school football.
If they went to an enrollment based system the crossover problem instantly disappears and you have 3 quality conferences, see below.
LA 3276
Marist 2662
St Ig 2408
BR 2146
MC 1961
Fen 1819
SR 1603
ND 1385
Provi 1296
Benet 1271
Naz 1180
StF 1130
Carmel 1074
Marm 1041
St Pat 983
JCA 965
Marian 878
StL 844
DePaul 833
St V 819
DeLaS 701
IC 608
Mont 488
Leo 386
If they went to an enrollment based system the crossover problem instantly disappears and you have 3 quality conferences, see below.
LA 3276
Marist 2662
St Ig 2408
BR 2146
MC 1961
Fen 1819
SR 1603
ND 1385
Provi 1296
Benet 1271
Naz 1180
StF 1130
Carmel 1074
Marm 1041
St Pat 983
JCA 965
Marian 878
StL 844
DePaul 833
St V 819
DeLaS 701
IC 608
Mont 488
Leo 386
I like it the way it is. Every once in a while I want a shot at the big boys with crossovers.
They won't ever do it that way because of all the knocking each other out it would keep some out of the playoffs like the SEC does. By forcing crossovers and out of conference they allow more teams in the playoffs. Thye will never go away from that as long as only the top 256 records get in.
Nice! I'm gonna be real, I forgot about Morris until now. I still think of them as a 5A program in my head. But you are correct, 4A is gonna be a good show this November!
Edit: My bad, Morris people. I meant no slight or disrespect by saying I forgot about you. I legitimately forgot about you in 4A.
Clown was obviously trolling as he does the whole ‘everyone gets a trophy’ dog whistle and I already explained the break up of the Blue in another post in this thread. So his conference breakdown was trolling or willfully ignorant. But either way, your reply was spot on
This seems like something fans say. Has the same feel as people that say "I don't care if the Bears go 2-15, as long as the 2 wins are against the Packers!".
In the end, players, coaches, programs want championships.
Some programs already have the championships playing equal enrollment size schools but still have not stepped up to beat that 7A or 8A top 10 team that is a powerhouse every year.
Your enrollment numbers are a bit deceiving because some CCL schools have multiplier waivers and some do not. If any of the top few schools in your smallest proposed division were to lose their waiver and be multiplied like JCA is, then those schools would move up to the next largest division and a multiplied JCA would be the first school to drop down into the smallest division. If JCA were to have their multiplier waived, then they would also be in the smallest division, regardless of the waiver status of the other schools in that division. Can you imagine JCA playing Leo, DLS, and DePaul year in and year out?
Joliet Catholic has 15 titles. Carry on
He's not wrong about the crossover games being problematic. I've always loathed them when they pit the top division teams against teams from the least competitive division.
I realize that this is all academic because things will be changing next year, but the problem of mismatch crossovers would be substantially solved with five or six team divisions and crossover games being limited to teams from no more than one division above and below each other.
Yes, it would result in more work for schools to schedule non-con games. Yes, larger divisions would likely mean a few less conference teams in the playoffs. Yes, easy for me to say as a fan that I don't care about that.
If you adjust on 4 year cycle it actually works since Montini would have been with the higher enrollment programs when they were at their strongest and winning but now that they are they aren't as powerful and lost their multiplier they would move down while, same would happen with JCA since they recently won a state title. Crossovers with large 8A schools playing 3A schools in general are a safety hazard and its sucks for the coach from LA having to game plan how not beat up to badly on team that has no business being on the field with them
Don't include me in your generalization of posters agreeing to that arrogant comment. They don't hand out trophies or write you name in the record books for 'playing LA tough'.
4 - 6 team divisions based on enrollment (boys only were doubled...no multiplier)
5 conference and two crossover games per year. Crossover games would be Pope v Cardinal and Archbishop v Bishop. (Example: Pope 1 v Cardinal 1 & 2, Pope 5 v Cardinal 5 & 6)
If you win the conference you move up, if you come in last you move down. Movement yearly.
Re-analyze enrollment every 5 years.
Sample Mt Carmel Year 1 Schedule.
1- Non Conf, 2-Non Conf 3-Loyola, 4-Marist, 5-Fenwick, 6, Carmel, 7-Marmion, 8-St Pats, 9-St Rita
Sample Carmel Year 1 Schedule
1 - Non Conf, 2 - Non Conf 3-St Ignatius, 4-Notre Dame, 5-Marmion, 6-St Pats, 7-St Rita, 8-Mt Carmel, 9-Fenwick
Sample IC Year 1 Schedule
1-Non Conf, 2-Non Conf, 3-Providence, 4-Naz, 5-Leo, 6-DeLaSalle, 7-St Francis, 8-JCA, 9-Montini
Sample DePaul Year 1 Schedule
1-Non Conf, 2-Non Conf, 3-JCA, 4-Montini, 5-St Viator, 6-Providence, 7-Naz, 8-Marian, 9-St Laurence
5 conference and two crossover games per year. Crossover games would be Pope v Cardinal and Archbishop v Bishop. (Example: Pope 1 v Cardinal 1 & 2, Pope 5 v Cardinal 5 & 6)
If you win the conference you move up, if you come in last you move down. Movement yearly.
Re-analyze enrollment every 5 years.
| SCHOOL | ENROLLMENT |
| POPE DIVISION | |
| LOYOLA | 1986 |
| MARIST | 1614 |
| ST IGNATIUS | 1460 |
| NOTRE DAME | 1385 |
| BROTHER RICE | 1301 |
| BENET | 1272 |
| CARDINAL DIVSION | |
| MT CARMEL | 1189 |
| FENWICK | 1103 |
| CARMEL | 1075 |
| MARMION | 1041 |
| ST PATS | 983 |
| ST RITA | 972 |
| ARCHBISHOP DIVISION | |
| HEIGHTS MARIAN | 879 |
| ST LAURENCE | 844 |
| DEPAUL | 833 |
| ST VIATOR | 819 |
| PROVIDENCE | 786 |
| NAZ | 716 |
| BISHOP DIVISON | |
| DELASALLE | 702 |
| ST FRANCIS | 685 |
| JCA | 585 |
| MONTINI | 488 |
| IC | 387 |
| LEO | 386 |
Sample Mt Carmel Year 1 Schedule.
1- Non Conf, 2-Non Conf 3-Loyola, 4-Marist, 5-Fenwick, 6, Carmel, 7-Marmion, 8-St Pats, 9-St Rita
Sample Carmel Year 1 Schedule
1 - Non Conf, 2 - Non Conf 3-St Ignatius, 4-Notre Dame, 5-Marmion, 6-St Pats, 7-St Rita, 8-Mt Carmel, 9-Fenwick
Sample IC Year 1 Schedule
1-Non Conf, 2-Non Conf, 3-Providence, 4-Naz, 5-Leo, 6-DeLaSalle, 7-St Francis, 8-JCA, 9-Montini
Sample DePaul Year 1 Schedule
1-Non Conf, 2-Non Conf, 3-JCA, 4-Montini, 5-St Viator, 6-Providence, 7-Naz, 8-Marian, 9-St Laurence
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SOME posters (not me) in this thread were opining that a WIN by ICCP over LA would carry more meaning and weight than ICCP winning a 3A or 4A state title. I don't recall anyone, much less "most posters in this thread," agreeing that simply playing LA tough is more important than a state title, as suggested by @rfb321.
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No. Just no.
Time and again, we have seen that enrollment does not always equate to success on the field. IC proves that over and over when they consistently beat much larger schools during the regular season and playoffs. We see it over and over in the IHSA playoffs where schools get blown out in the first or second round, just as they likely would if they were playing in the next lowest class or even two classes lower.
Quite simply, enrollment is an imperfect determinant of competitive level.
If you were Leo in your proposed conference alignment, would you want to be in a division where you play the likes of JCA, IC, St. Francis and Montini year in and year out? Then throw in a potential crossover game against Naz or Providence? If I were Leo in a situation like this, I'd seriously look to join another conference.
I know it’s 5a not 4a, but there are a handful of JCA squads since we moved to 8 classes that I believe would have beaten or barely lost to that years top 8a teams. Hearing that a 4a team can never beat a top 8a team is rubbish. If you have a chance at the king, like IC did, you have to take it. You should never root for an injury but in this case I hope the IC players were actually injured/sick.
Leo has not had a winning season in 10 years. I do not feel it matters who they play.
Enrollment was used in this example to set things up, but if it was actually setup with promotion and relegation, the enrollment wouldn't matter within a few years. Teams would find their level. It would be better if a "committee" could do the initial setup, based on best guess to where teams fit, not just enrollment.
I do disagree with needing to re-analyze every 5 years. No need for that if it has promotion/relegation.
So, looking at the above true enrollment figures, why was IC ever put in the orange division? Because they won a 3A title?
So, here was what’s up with their roster. They play nine offensive starters on defense. Full time. The QB and a lineman get a rest. That means, if you are trying to win a close game, you play thirteen guys every down. So in the three games prior to LA that went down to the last play, that’s exactly what happened. Against larger rostered teams playing fresher players. What happens is obvious. They entered the Francis game without their D1 TE/DE and one lineman. That’s two down. First series they loose starting RB/DB. That’s three down. All state LB/receiver leaves in an ambulance and two more linemen are helped off the field. That’s six. Remaining RB has 36 carries , plays every down on defense, is beat to crap. QB has an ankle. That’s eight down, or fifteen staring positions. And you have LA in a week
So, you put the walking wounded back on the field and jeopardize the rest of the season in a game you can’t possibly win?
Remember this teams needs every one of those guys come playoff time or the won’t get thru the second round
So, here was what’s up with their roster. They play nine offensive starters on defense. Full time. The QB and a lineman get a rest. That means, if you are trying to win a close game, you play thirteen guys every down. So in the three games prior to LA that went down to the last play, that’s exactly what happened. Against larger rostered teams playing fresher players. What happens is obvious. They entered the Francis game without their D1 TE/DE and one lineman. That’s two down. First series they loose starting RB/DB. That’s three down. All state LB/receiver leaves in an ambulance and two more linemen are helped off the field. That’s six. Remaining RB has 36 carries , plays every down on defense, is beat to crap. QB has an ankle. That’s eight down, or fifteen staring positions. And you have LA in a week
So, you put the walking wounded back on the field and jeopardize the rest of the season in a game you can’t possibly win?
Remember this teams needs every one of those guys come playoff time or the won’t get thru the second round
No, because, regardless of the 3A title, they belong there competitively.
I think it remains to be seen how wounded they all are. How many were at practice on Monday or today after not playing on Saturday? How many will return this weekend against DLS? If all, then I think that begs the question of how wounded they were last weekend. Were some beat to crap but able to play? I think that's true about a lot of players at this point of the season.
If there were players that sat or didn't dress that could have played, I understand the decision from a purely football perspective on a team that, if healthy, has a strong chance to go very deep in the playoffs, but I just don't agree with it. It doesn't pass the smell test. If the scheduling gods had IC playing DLS after St Francis instead of Loyola, would those same kids have sat against DLS?
I think of all those teams over the years that suited up against IC when they didn't stand a chance either. I think of the second teamers that got intentionally thrown into the LA game like cannon fodder. "Hey, kid, I have good news and bad news. The good news is that you will finally see some serious playing time this weekend. The bad news is that it will be against Loyola and the following weekend against DLS you'll probably ride the bench again." Where was the concern for those kids' health and safety? What makes those kids expendable?
Whether or not ICCP had a chance to beat LA is irrelevant. It was a regular season game, not an exhibition. If it's that bad, just forfeit. Either try your hardest to win or don't try at all.
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“Whether or not ICCP had a chance to beat LA is irrelevant. It was a regular season game, not an exhibition. If it's that bad, just forfeit. Either try your hardest to win or don't try at all”
Although I don’t like any team forfeiting I have to agree with you Ramblinman. You’re either all in or you’re out.
Definitely a tough spot.
On one hand, you have all these key players out/sick/banged up etc. Maybe IC at full strength can hang with Loyola or at least keep it respectable. Based on other score comparisons vs the Blue, I’d say they would at least represent themselves well. Unfortunately the opportunity didn’t come to fruition. With all the health issues and such a small varsity roster, a forfeit would have been understandable, but I’m sure that would have also raised a level of stink on the message boards and social media.
On the other hand, sending out the backups/scout team/sophomores to get their heads handed to them by one of the best teams in the state isn’t a good look either.
And who says the sent out the scout team. The backup qb IS a soph. They played the thirteen remaining “varsity” players, four who are Sophs and eight JV types. That’s all they got. The drop off on small roster teams is dramatic.
If some LA coach had not leaked that IC was down to nothing and asked for a break, this discussion would not be happening
If some LA coach had not leaked that IC was down to nothing and asked for a break, this discussion would not be happening
But he did, and it is.
How many of those injured returned to practice this week and will be playing on Friday?
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