IHSA March Meeting Three Significant Changes To Classification Policy

[RoaminCatholic]

False equivalency when you have selective enrollment.

A point irrelevant when jostling for prospective students... but what would some public school guys know about that?

In a world where we have to essentially sell ourselves (our schools that is) things like academics matter very much. As does the community of the school, parental support, etc. But y'all never want to mention that stuff. It's just "we ain't gettin' no trophies, how do we stop them from taking our trophies?"

 

[PowerI66]

A point irrelevant when jostling for prospective students... but what would some public school guys know about that?

In a world where we have to essentially sell ourselves (our schools that is) things like academics matter very much. As does the community of the school, parental support, etc. But y'all never want to mention that stuff. It's just "we ain't gettin' no trophies, how do we stop them from taking our trophies?"

I wasn't talking about that side at all. I was just correcting you on the academic portion, as it is a common misconception (in many, not all, cases).

 

[MMA_Det]

It is interesting to think that Chicago Public Schools don’t get affected by this and the fact that they also have open enrollment.

There is absolutely no reason that there are not 2-3 COS schools that aren’t in the state finals every year

No boundaries and no multiplier

 

[johnndoe]

Wondering if private school enrollment could ever spike any if parents increasingly make secondary education choices to avoid public school gender issues and/or socially-engineered curriculum.

 

[ramblinman]

In the case of every private school outside of the CCL bubble... yes, that is correct. The sports are great and all, but we all know it's more fun to whoop their butts athletically AND academically.

Don't kid yourself. The CCL bubble has never been immune from struggle or failure. Just ask the likes of Hales, Weber, Mendel/St Martin, St. George, the original DePaul Academy, etc. Plus, many current CCL schools are shadows of their former selves enrollment-wise. For some of them, the writing is on the wall.

 

[King MJ]

80 posts into this thread and no-one has answered by basic question. Which schools will be impacted by this for next football season?

 

[ramblinman]

80 posts into this thread and no-one has answered by basic question. Which schools will be impacted by this for next football season?

You just can't do it in football.

First, you need to define what you mean by "impacted." Impacted such that non-boundaried schools are eligible to apply for a waiver or impacted such that they are actually multiplied into a higher playoff class bracket?

If the former, what needs to be done is to determine which non-boundaried schools have not won a single playoff game in the last three years. They are the ones that are eligible to apply for a waiver assuming any of them become playoff qualifiers, but that doesn't mean that all of them will apply for the waiver.

If the latter, then all those non-boundaried schools that have won at least one playoff game in the last three years are subject to an automatic multiplier. But, even then, you won't know which schools are impacted by it because there is a whole regular season to play first before all qualifiers can be determined. Can't be any impact if they don't qualify, right?

The best you can do now is to create a pool of those non-boundaried schools that are eligible to apply for a waiver and those that are not.

 

[4Afan]

You just can't do it in football.

Sure you can. Just put a disclaimer that certain teams are subject to the multiplier should they make the playoffs. You make it seem like it's something that's impossible to figure out until the playoffs when it's fairly simple.

 

[ramblinman]

So, here's what I don't understand about this new waiver rule as it applies to football:

Let's assume that a non-boundaried school that has not won a playoff game in the last three years is on the bubble going into week 9. They are eligible to qualify, but they haven't yet.

When do they apply for the waiver? There were no deadlines mentioned in that IHSA announcement.

There's no real need for them to apply until they qualify, right? I mean, why force schools to go through the application process and create that extra administrative burden for them AND the IHSA unless it is necessary, right?

Now, let's assume that said school wins their week nine game and qualifies. How long do they have to apply for the waiver? And how long will it take for this IHSA staff committee to review all the submitted waivers AND for the IHSA board to review the staff decisions...all before Saturday night of week 9? There's that must see TV playoff pairings show we all watch that must go on, right?

I feel that I know the answer to my original question, but I don't like it. The only way the waiver application process can happen is if it happens before the season and the review process happens during it. I don't like it because of the extra work it creates for both schools and IHSA staff and IHSA board that is unnecessary.

By my count, there are 83 non-boundaried football playing schools that haven't won a playoff game in the last three years. Realistically, how many of them will qualify next year, given that the most of those schools are public schools in Chicago that they haven't won a playoff game in AT LEAST three years? Hell, most of them have NEVER won a playoff game in ANY year! Let's be generous and say 3 of them will make the playoffs next year. That means that 80 schools that won't make the football playoffs would have been required to apply for a waiver and the IHSA staff will be required to review them all, and the IHSA board is required to review the staff's decisions. All that work to determine the three non-boundaried schools that qualify and are eligible for a waiver. 🤮

Seriously, who makes this sh!t up?

 

[ramblinman]

Sure you can. Just put a disclaimer that certain teams are subject to the multiplier should they make the playoffs. You make it seem like it's something that's impossible to figure out until the playoffs when it's fairly simple.

That already exists. It's the POOL of POTENTIAL non-boundaried classifications. It ASSUMES everyone qualifies when, of course, most won't. It also assumes that those that make the playoffs and are eligible to play in a lower class, will NOT apply for the waiver.

So, basically, it's useless.

POOL

 

[SiuCubFan8]

I don't care what extra work the IHSA has to do, for what it's worth.

 

[ramblinman]

I don't care what extra work the IHSA has to do, for what it's worth.

I don't either, but you should care about the work being done by the 83 schools to apply for a waiver that 96% of them won't need.

 

[4Afan]

So, here's what I don't understand about this new waiver rule as it applies to football:

Let's assume that a non-boundaried school that has not won a playoff game in the last three years is on the bubble going into week 9. They are eligible to qualify, but they haven't yet.

When do they apply for the waiver? There were no deadlines mentioned in that IHSA announcement.

There's no real need for them to apply until they qualify, right? I mean, why force schools to go through the application process and create that extra administrative burden for them AND the IHSA unless it is necessary, right?

Now, let's assume that said school wins their week nine game and qualifies. How long do they have to apply for the waiver? And how long will it take for this IHSA staff committee to review all the submitted waivers AND for the IHSA board to review the staff decisions...all before Saturday night of week 9? There's that must see TV playoff pairings show we all watch that must go on, right?

I feel that I know the answer to my original question, but I don't like it. The only way the waiver application process can happen is if it happens before the season and the review process happens during it. I don't like it because of the extra work it creates for both schools and IHSA staff and IHSA board that is unnecessary.

By my count, there are 83 non-boundaried football playing schools that haven't won a playoff game in the last three years. Realistically, how many of them will qualify next year, given that the vast majority of those schools are public schools in Chicago and that they haven't won a playoff game in AT LEAST three years? Hell, most of them have NEVER won a playoff game in ANY year! Let's be generous and say 5 of them will make the playoffs next year. That means that 78 schools that won't make the playoffs would have been required to apply for a waiver and the IHSA staff will be required to review them all, and the IHSA board is required to review the staff's decisions. 🤮

You're assuming all those schools will apply for the waiver and that they will all apply at the exact same time. You also assume that applying for a waiver and the review process is a tedious process. It could be as simple as completing a form or sending an email.

 

[LHSTigers94]

So, here's what I don't understand about this new waiver rule as it applies to football:

Let's assume that a non-boundaried school that has not won a playoff game in the last three years is on the bubble going into week 9. They are eligible to qualify, but they haven't yet.

When do they apply for the waiver? There were no deadlines mentioned in that IHSA announcement.

There's no real need for them to apply until they qualify, right? I mean, why force schools to go through the application process and create that extra administrative burden for them AND the IHSA unless it is necessary, right?

Now, let's assume that said school wins their week nine game and qualifies. How long do they have to apply for the waiver? And how long will it take for this IHSA staff committee to review all the submitted waivers AND for the IHSA board to review the staff decisions...all before Saturday night of week 9? There's that must see TV playoff pairings show we all watch that must go on, right?

I feel that I know the answer to my original question, but I don't like it. The only way the waiver application process can happen is if it happens before the season and the review process happens during it. I don't like it because of the extra work it creates for both schools and IHSA staff and IHSA board that is unnecessary.

By my count, there are 83 non-boundaried football playing schools that haven't won a playoff game in the last three years. Realistically, how many of them will qualify next year, given that the most of those schools are public schools in Chicago that they haven't won a playoff game in AT LEAST three years? Hell, most of them have NEVER won a playoff game in ANY year! Let's be generous and say 5 of them will make the playoffs next year. That means that 78 schools that won't make the football playoffs would have been required to apply for a waiver and the IHSA staff will be required to review them all, and the IHSA board is required to review the staff's decisions. 🤮

Seriously, who makes this sh!t up?

I would assume its the same process as the petition to play up. It's one sheet of paper requesting to play up. I would assume there will be one sheet of paper that request a waiver. The decision is fairly quick and seamless. Not sure why we are making a big deal out of this. Everyone know the rule now lets play ball. If it is too complicated, just eliminate the waiver and things go back to the way they use to be. You stay multiplied and work hard to get better.

 

[ramblinman]

You're assuming all those schools will apply for the waiver and that they will all apply at the exact same time.

Well, there isn't a deadline. So can they all apply on Saturday afternoon of week 9?

You also assume that applying for a waiver and the review process is a tedious process. It could be as simple as completing a form or sending an email.

It probably isn't tedious. But, when you factor it across 83 schools and the fact that the IHSA staff and board must review them all, doesn't it seem a bit much given that 95% of the applications are ultimately rendered moot anyway?

 

[ramblinman]

I would assume its the same process as the petition to play up. It's one sheet of paper requesting to play up. I would assume there will be one sheet of paper that request a waiver. The decision is fairly quick and seamless.

It's all online, but it's still work.

Not sure why we are making a big deal out of this.

Because it is super inefficient and a huge waste of time when 96% of the waiver applications are rendered moot by failure to qualify.

 

[4Afan]

Well, there isn't a deadline. So can they all apply on Saturday afternoon of week 9?



It probably isn't tedious. But, when you factor it across 83 schools and the fact that the IHSA staff and board must review them all, doesn't it seem a bit much given that 95% of the applications are ultimately rendered moot anyway?

It will likely be a deadline prior to week 1, so they will have between now and the end of August. Should that be the case then I don't foresee 83 applications being submitted all at once.

Should the deadline be prior to the playoffs starting then I'd guess the IHSA will have a team to review the applications and since you claim there will be so few teams that will qualify then it shouldn't be difficult for them to process 5 waivers in a day.

As another poster said, how is this different than the process of petitioning to play up?

You're making a big deal out of nothing.

 

[LHSTigers94]

It's all online, but it's still work.



Because it is super inefficient and a huge waste of time when 96% of the waiver applications are rendered moot by failure to qualify.

Same can be said about petitioning up. Only the people that feel the need to apply will apply. All others will continue business as usual.

 

[ramblinman]

It will likely be a deadline prior to week 1, so they will have between now and the end of August. Should that be the case then I don't foresee 83 applications being submitted all at once.

I don't either, but that's not really the point. The point is the totality of work on the part of 83 schools and the IHSA to determine the classification of less than a handful of schools. The point is also that 96% of that work is ultimately unnecessary since 96% of those schools will not qualify anyway.

Should the deadline be prior to the playoffs starting then I'd guess the IHSA will have a team to review the applications and since you claim there will be so few teams that will qualify then it shouldn't be difficult for them to process 5 waivers in a day.

They can't process it in a day. It first must be reviewed by IHSA staff. Then it must be reviewed by the IHSA Board. You accuse me of making a big deal out of nothing. It seems to me that you should level that accusation to the IHSA.

As another poster said, how is this different than the process of petitioning to play up?

It's very different, and I'm surprised the two of you don't understand that. Or perhaps you do understand it but don't want facts to get in the way of your narratives.

The process to petition up before the season starts is a voluntary one that is taken by just a handful of schools each year. The waiver process, while voluntary also, is likely going to be quasi-mandatory in the sense that no non-boundaried school eligible for a waiver will want to take the risk of qualifying for the playoffs and being multiplied up a class or two higher than where they could be playing.

The waiver application process is different from the petition to play up in the sense that the petition to play up does not result in a bunch of work being done by dozens of schools and the IHSA with the end result being a decision to grant, or not grant, a waiver to a handful of schools to stay in their actual enrollment class or to be multiplied up. Nor does the petition to play up result in ANY work by ANY school, much less by 80 schools, that is ultimately rendered unnecessary by those schools' failure to qualify in the first place.

You're making a big deal out of nothing.

And you are in favor of a whole bunch of unnecessary effort on the part of 83 schools and the IHSA just to determine the classification of less than a handful of schools.

 

[ramblinman]

Same can be said about petitioning up. Only the people that feel the need to apply will apply. All others will continue business as usual.

Completely disagree. What message does not applying say to your program even before the season begins -- that you don't think they stand a snowball's chance in hell of winning 5 games? What non-boundaried administrator would want to run the risk of not applying and then qualifying and being forced to play up one or two classes higher than their actual enrollment could have had them playing?

 

[4Afan]

I don't either, but that's not really the point. The point is the totality of work on the part of 83 schools and the IHSA to determine the classification of less than a handful of schools. The point is also that 96% of that work is ultimately unnecessary since 96% of those schools will not qualify anyway.



They can't process it in a day. It first must be reviewed by IHSA staff. Then it must be reviewed by the IHSA Board. You accuse me of making a big deal out of nothing. It seems to me that you should level that accusation to the IHSA.




It's very different, and I'm surprised the two of you don't understand that. Or perhaps you do understand it but don't want facts to get in the way of your narratives.

The process to petition up before the season starts is a voluntary one that is taken by just a handful of schools each year. The waiver process, while voluntary also, is likely going to be quasi-mandatory in the sense that no non-boundaried school eligible for a waiver will want to take the risk of qualifying for the playoffs and being multiplied up a class or two higher than where they could be playing.

The waiver application process is different from the petition to play up in the sense that the petition to play up does not result in a bunch of work being done by dozens of schools and the IHSA with the end result being a decision to grant, or not grant, a waiver to a handful of schools to stay in their actual enrollment class or to be multiplied up. Nor does the petition to play up result in ANY work by ANY school, much less by 80 schools, that is ultimately rendered unnecessary by those schools' failure to qualify in the first place.



And you are in favor of a whole bunch of unnecessary effort on the part of 83 schools and the IHSA just to determine the classification of less than a handful of schools.

How do you know how much actual work is required by the school to apply for the waiver? It could be something the ADs secretary does while having her morning coffee. You make it sound like it's this arduous process that will take days to complete.

Also, you keep mentioning 83 schools, but that's not accurate. The language says non-boundaried schools, but it really only applies to private schools. What CPS team is currently multiplied and would need to submit a waiver to play in the class they qualify for based on enrollment?

That being said, how many private schools are out there that haven't won a playoff game in 3 years that are currently multiplied into a higher class?

 

[LHSTigers94]

Completely disagree. What message does not applying say to your program even before the season begins -- that you don't think they stand a snowball's chance in hell of winning 5 games? What non-boundaried administrator would want to run the risk of not applying and then qualifying and being forced to play up one or two classes higher than their actual enrollment could have had them playing?

All non boundaried school are multiplied. It’s the rule. It’s been in existence for a long time. If as a program you want an exception to the rule, you take the time to go through the process. You don’t have to go down to be successful. You can put the work in and be good at the level you are classified at. Simple.

 

[ramblinman]

How do you know how much actual work is required by the school to apply for the waiver?

I don't know how much work there is at all for one school. Never said I did. However much it is, multiply that by 83 for the totality of work for ALL schools eligible for the waiver. Then factor in all the work the IHSA staff and board has to do to review the applications. All that to determine classification for less than a handful of schools.

You make it sound like it's this arduous process that will take days to complete.

Really? Where? I am always referring to the totality of work.

Also, you keep mentioning 83 schools, but that's not accurate.

What, did I count wrong?

The language says non-boundaried schools, but it really only applies to private schools.

Really? Show me that in writing from the IHSA

That being said, how many private schools are out there that haven't won a playoff game in 3 years that are currently multiplied into a higher class?

Who am I, your research bitch? Figure it out yourself. Do your own digging.

 

[ramblinman]

All non boundaried school are multiplied. It’s the rule. It’s been in existence for a long time. If as a program you want an exception to the rule, you take the time to go through the process. You don’t have to go down to be successful. You can put the work in and be good at the level you are classified at. Simple.

All to determine the classification for less than a handful of schools who qualify for the playoffs and haven't won a playoff game in the last three years. I could even see some years where none of those non-boundaried schools with no playoff wins in the last three years qualify for the playoffs. Yet, you still want them AND the IHSA to "go through the process" anyway before the season begins.

No thanks.

 

[4Afan]

I don't know how much work there is at all for one school. Never said I did. However much it is, multiply that by 83 for the totality of work for ALL schools eligible for the waiver. Then factor in all the work the IHSA staff and board has to do to review the applications. All that to determine classification for less than a handful of schools.



Really? Where? I am always referring to the totality of work.



What, did I count wrong?



Really? Show me that in writing from the IHSA




Who am I? Your research bitch? Figure it out yourself. Do your own digging.

Where are you getting 83 schools?

The language says non-boundaried schools, which technically includes CPS schools but CPS schools aren't multiplied

I don't know how much work there is at all for one school. Never said I did. However much it is, multiply that by 83 for the totality of work for ALL schools eligible for the waiver. Then factor in all the work the IHSA staff and board has to do to review the applications. All that to determine classification for less than a handful of schools.



Really? Where? I am always referring to the totality of work.



What, did I count wrong?



Really? Show me that in writing from the IHSA




Who am I, your research bitch? Figure it out yourself. Do your own digging.

Link below is a list of schools and where they stand in terms of multiplier waiver eligibility. Note that it says that with the waiver it does not guarantee a change in class. I chose a private and a non-boundary team as examples. St. Pat's last made the playoffs in 2021 and were in 5A. They are eligible for the waiver this year and should they make the playoffs they would still be 5A, so there's no point in them applying for the waiver. Chicago (Brooks) also last made the playoffs in 2021 and were 5A and would be 5A if they made the playoffs again this year.

That kills your argument that there would be 83 teams applying for a waiver. If a schools knows that no matter how the ball bounces that they would firmly be in a specific class should they make the playoffs then there's no point in them applying for the waiver.

The waiver deadline to petition up is September 1. I would not be surprised if the multiplier waiver deadline is the same.

Two-Year Cycle Enrollments and Classifications

 

[LHSTigers94]

All to determine the classification for less than a handful of schools who qualify for the playoffs and haven't won a playoff game in the last three years. I could even see some years where none of those non-boundaried schools with no playoff wins in the last three years qualify for the playoffs. Yet, you still want them AND the IHSA to "go through the process" anyway before the season begins.

No thanks.

I don’t want them to do anything. I don’t like handouts. I am of the same Mindset as LA who petitioned to 8A when a handout was given. However much work it requires is fair for someone looking for a handout. Whatever work is required to receive a handout is justified. Keep in mind there is zero options for a public school that can’t a playoff game to drop down to a winnable classification.