Would a Conference containing a mix of both Public & Private Schools work?

[anon_4vszfu35bv677]

Yes, there are board members from private schools, but public school board members constitute a substantial majority. If they chose to vote along public school lines, they could enact whatever rule they want that doesn't violate their own constitution.

Imagine how public schools would react if there were public school championship series governed by a board that contained a substantial majority of members from private schools.

The percentage of board members from private schools is greater than the percentage of private schools in the IHSA.

Like I've said many times before, things won't change because the privates don't want them to.

 

[Cross Bones]

I am not suggesting that there is anything wrong with the majority of the board representing the majority of the members.

Why is it that you don't understand the concern around public school board members in control of private school only playoffs? Newsflash: There is a substantial public school distrust and distaste towards private schools...and vice versa. Take the playoff related animosity out of the equation, and that animosity will simply transfer to something else like private schools beating publics in the regular season and keeping them from qualifying, or public school athletes transferring to private schools, or whatever.

Again, can you imagine if private schools were the majority and a bunch of clergy and other religious types were in control of public school playoffs?

I disagree. Unlike the playoff games, the regular season games are generally between two schools who are expected to be and ARE competitive with each other with the enrollment having nothing to do with the matchup.

 

[Cross Bones]

Embarrassing? Rated by whom? Is it embarrassing if the 5A champ is rated lower than the 6A or 7A champ?

Its a silly notion.

Plus theyre not looking at how (or maybe they are) having to play similar schools would affect their own recruiting. For example, I think 2 private classes would be enough (or maybe 3 small classes) but with that you have your Montini's going head up with your Naz's with your Mt. Carmels and Loyolas. With less championships to go around are these schools still drawing the same type and number of football players that they were before? Will there be a shift to the schools that break out of that bunch? Will Lombard area kids stay at their local public?

There certainly could be some unintended consequences

 

[moebias]

Unintended consequences will rule the day, if the IHSA is truly stupid enough to separate the publics and privates, the privates will leave and form their own division, the shackles will be off and you will see muck more aggressive recruiting because the two entities will not have jurisdiction over each other. Its a lose lose for both. The Loyola's, MC's and BR's of the world will do just fine. The schools it will hurt the most are the St. Teresas in Decatur and the other downstate privates.

As far as scheduling, you will see much more regional scheduling. MC and Loyola will play Cathedral in Indy and Moeller in Cincy out of necessity. Also it weakens the IHSA brand, because it introduces the question, are we really the best in Illinois?

 

[UlbKA91]

That's unfortunate (and yes I have heard that as well). I think from a geographic standpoint it would make a lot of sense for some CPS and CCL schools to be in the same conference (very close to one another).

The concept might be a lifeline to Guerin, Leo, St. Joe, Marian of the Heights, even the erstwhile Gordon Tech who could be in an Urkel conference with Payton, Northside, WY, Westinghouse (who is now what WY was in the late 70s, just need another gentrification boundary breached to get up to WY status).

 

[Cross Bones]

Unintended consequences will rule the day, if the IHSA is truly stupid enough to separate the publics and privates, the privates will leave and form their own division, the shackles will be off and you will see muck more aggressive recruiting because the two entities will not have jurisdiction over each other. Its a lose lose for both. The Loyola's, MC's and BR's of the world will do just fine. The schools it will hurt the most are the St. Teresas in Decatur and the other downstate privates.

As far as scheduling, you will see much more regional scheduling. MC and Loyola will play Cathedral in Indy and Moeller in Cincy out of necessity. Also it weakens the IHSA brand, because it introduces the question, are we really the best in Illinois?

Disagree with every point. You dont get to argue both that enrollments are going down AND that they will recruit more students at the same time. Either people cannot afford these educations or they can, a split in the post season shouldnt change that.............unless someone is lying.

I also dont know about weakening the brand. Texas has it split and seems to do just fine. Sure we'll have questions about who #1 is sometimes. Same way it already is today in 2016.

Yes there will be unintended consequences, but we dont know what those are and if they are good consequences or bad. Could be better off for all sides. And BTW nothing is stopping MC or LA from playing Cathedral today. Someone told me within the last two weeks that Bosco was looking to play Loyola. Tell them to pick up the phone, I want to see it.

 

[moebias]

Disagree with every point. You dont get to argue both that enrollments are going down AND that they will recruit more students at the same time. Either people cannot afford these educations or they can, a split in the post season shouldnt change that.............unless someone is lying.

Answer: Enrollments are going down across the board, both publics and privates. As it holds right now, tuition aid is based on need and there are prohibitions against recruiting in general. You split that is no longer the case, the same old IHSA rules dont apply. I am not saying it is right, but it is what will happen

I also dont know about weakening the brand. Texas has it split and seems to do just fine. Sure we'll have questions about who #1 is sometimes. Same way it already is today in 2016.

Answer:Texas is large state, with low taxes and a growing economy. Illinois is a bankrupt state that is being driven into the ground by our current political leaders where a recent study says over half the residents of the state want to leave. You are going to be fighting over a rapidly shrinking pie where public schools are going to be forced to consolodate due to diminishing tax bases, good luck with that

Yes there will be unintended consequences, but we dont know what those are and if they are good consequences or bad. Could be better off for all sides. And BTW nothing is stopping MC or LA from playing Cathedral today. Someone told me within the last two weeks that Bosco was looking to play Loyola. Tell them to pick up the phone, I want to see it.

Answer: Some will be good and some will be bad, but some will be catastrophic. You really have that much faith in the IHSA given their stellar track record.
If you are a good football player in Glenview looking to get recruited, do you want to go to LA and play Bosco for additional exposure or do you want to feast on Niles West. Top kids will go where the competition is best over time, the IHSA will reduce competition by removing the privates and will not allow their member schools the same flexibility that the privates have.

 

[mc140]

Answer: Some will be good and some will be bad, but some will be catastrophic. You really have that much faith in the IHSA given their stellar track record.
If you are a good football player in Glenview looking to get recruited, do you want to go to LA and play Bosco for additional exposure or do you want to feast on Niles West. Top kids will go where the competition is best over time, the IHSA will reduce competition by removing the privates and will not allow their member schools the same flexibility that the privates have.

There is a ton of money already spent by Alumni paying the tuition of athletes at these schools. While some kids will undoubtedly get poached, it will take a lot more money to get the kids needed to beat on each other then to defeat Kaneland or Lasalle-Peru. The arms race would result in a bunch of schools closing and a few super powers.

 

[HHSTigerFan]

Unintended consequences will rule the day, if the IHSA is truly stupid enough to separate the publics and privates, the privates will leave and form their own division, the shackles will be off and you will see muck more aggressive recruiting because the two entities will not have jurisdiction over each other. Its a lose lose for both. The Loyola's, MC's and BR's of the world will do just fine. The schools it will hurt the most are the St. Teresas in Decatur and the other downstate privates.

As far as scheduling, you will see much more regional scheduling. MC and Loyola will play Cathedral in Indy and Moeller in Cincy out of necessity. Also it weakens the IHSA brand, because it introduces the question, are we really the best in Illinois?

The private schools would not leave the IHSA, its that simple...

 

[HHSTigerFan]

There is a ton of money already spent by Alumni paying the tuition of athletes at these schools. While some kids will undoubtedly get poached, it will take a lot more money to get the kids needed to beat on each other then to defeat Kaneland or Lasalle-Peru. The arms race would result in a bunch of schools closing and a few super powers.

Do you realize what you just admitted there????

 

[mc140]

Do you realize what you just admitted there????

You don't read the board enough.

 

[HHSTigerFan]

You don't read the board enough.

It's absolutely amazing to me that you claim the schools openly break the rules to get these athletes in the door... but then you complain when the public schools want separate classes??????

 

[Cross Bones]

It's absolutely amazing to me that you claim the schools openly break the rules to get these athletes in the door... but then you complain when the public schools want separate classes??????

mc140 has been about as open as it comes for as long as I can remember. MC alum but coaches in the south suburbs somewhere. Sees both sides of the coin...

 

[mc140]

It's absolutely amazing to me that you claim the schools openly break the rules to get these athletes in the door... but then you complain when the public schools want separate classes??????

Did.Not.Happen.

That is almost as bad as complaining about government handouts then taking a farm subsidy for land you don't actually farm.

 

[moebias]

The private schools would not leave the IHSA, its that simple...

The private schools would leave the IHSA in a heartbeat, it is a lose lose for both

 

[anon_4vszfu35bv677]

The private schools would leave the IHSA in a heartbeat, it is a lose lose for both

More, I'm going to ask the same question of you that I've asked of Ramblinman, why have they done it already?

Answer: they do not want to!

 

[ramblinman]

The percentage of board members from private schools is greater than the percentage of private schools in the IHSA.

That's nice. Regardless, directors from public schools still comprise a substantial majority of the IHSA board. And it is for that reason that I would not want private schools to be subject to their control if the public schools voted private schools into playoff classifications that are separate from public schools.

Like I've said many times before, things won't change because the privates don't want them to.

You can say it as many times as you want, but frequency of an incorrect message doesn't make that message any less incorrect. The IHSA changes things all the time despite the private schools not wanting them to.

 

[anon_4vszfu35bv677]

That's nice. Regardless, directors from public schools still comprise a substantial majority of the IHSA board. And it is for that reason that I would not want private schools to be subject to their control if the public schools voted private schools into playoff classifications that are separate from public schools.



You can say it as many times as you want, but frequency of an incorrect message doesn't make that message any less incorrect. The IHSA changes things all the time despite the private schools not wanting them to.

Fine, then educate the class on why they have not left already?

Seems to me that if they did, you all would get what you want, unlimited borders, open recruiting and scholarships.

I'm listening...

 

[ramblinman]

More, I'm going to ask the same question of you that I've asked of Ramblinman, why have they done it already?

Answer: they do not want to!

They may want to, but they stick around anyway. Leaving the IHSA and forming their own organization is a monumental task, and the private schools keep determining through their inaction that leaving is more trouble than it's worth. Not to decide is to decide.

That's why I said yesterday that the private schools will stick around up to the point that they perceive whatever rules the IHSA imposes to be existential threats. Anything short of that, and the private schools will likely continue to submit to IHSA public school hegemony. Not ideal, but it is what it is.

 

[ramblinman]

I disagree. Unlike the playoff games, the regular season games are generally between two schools who are expected to be and ARE competitive with each other with the enrollment having nothing to do with the matchup.

That's not going to stop public schools from whining about so called private school advantages when they lose to private schools in the regular season. It's the nature of the public school beast to whine when they lose to private schools -- regular season or playoffs.

Private school advantage is a juicy and expedient excuse to most public schools and fans thereof. Why admit that you lost because you didn't play well or weren't good enough when blaming private school advantage is a much easier sell among public school communities that are predisposed and conditioned to identify private schools to be the scapegoats for their athletic ills? If public schools play private schools and lose, it's the private schools' fault because of a myriad of private school advantages. If public schools don't play private schools and lose to other public schools, it's still the private schools' fault because the private schools picked more cherries from their district than the other one.

 

[go dogz]

mc140 has been about as open as it comes for as long as I can remember. MC alum but coaches in the south suburbs somewhere. Sees both sides of the coin...

i agree with bones and mc140 on this subject.
and I also believe.
separating could be good for both sides.
privates: could recruit harder(as mc140 stated with the alums money) for players. I would assume these restrictions would be off. otherwise why separate.
publics: will gain from lower level private schools that will undoubtedly close because enrollment.

we have been seeing in the last few years, a bunch of transfers. for whatever reasoning. tuition costs going up, play time, whatever the reasoning. these kids(parents) want to see that their money on all of these camps was money well spent. they want to see their kids playing.
now the question begs to be answered, will this create transfers within public school districts?
will families move to certain districts so liljohnny can play at public x?
some of this goes on now.

I honestly thought this discussion was more along the lines of like.
Richards vs marist, brother rice(only in your districts)
but why do they want to play now?
what is the benefit really for the public school to play them regularly.
if you win, recruiting back kids, but if lose consistently, you will lose more kids to the area private schools. is my opinion.
mc140, you have first hand knowledge on this particular subject.
as you see it every season. do you honestly think it is beneficial for the area publics to play regularly their private counterparts?
I think once in a while is great, just like reavis and st larry did a few seasons ago.
I think it did strengthen both schools somewhat. but next year st larry will be stronger and reavis will lose some area kids. I think we have seen this this year.
in the last 5years evergreen park has gone from very good, to maybe having 35kids on varsity.
what is the reasoning for these numbers, bro rice is up. yes, because of success.
public schools cycles run like 3to4yrs as their counterparts(privates) more like 5to7years.

I see it a lot richards v shepard v ike. Richards has had the better success in getting the kids to stay in boundary, but every few years you will see the stros/ike very competitive.
it is more public prevalent in the lincolnway district. east has had the success but reality hit once they opened 2 new schools, less kids to choose from. they were good but not dominate. close north and they get their kids back. in the next 1-3years they will be fighting for another championship.
west is now on its slow cycle, why because the influx of kids has just pushed them up into a bigger bracket. it will take them another year or so to get back. but tuition costs in pc and jca have gone up. so do they benefit from some of the depth players transferring, I am sure they will.
my two cents.

 

[doctor_d]

There is a ton of money already spent by Alumni paying the tuition of athletes at these schools. While some kids will undoubtedly get poached, it will take a lot more money to get the kids needed to beat on each other then to defeat Kaneland or Lasalle-Peru. The arms race would result in a bunch of schools closing and a few super powers.

This from a MC guy, wow. Admirable admissions that I don't read too often lurking on the board.
Really leads me to agree with edgytim on the separation of playoffs inevitability.
Simply no way to competitively classify the publics vs the arms race super powers vs the private have nots.

 

[HHSTigerFan]

Did.Not.Happen.

That is almost as bad as complaining about government handouts then taking a farm subsidy for land you don't actually farm.

If you own the land you are entitled to that program, though that's went away in recent years

 

[HHSTigerFan]

The private schools would leave the IHSA in a heartbeat, it is a lose lose for both

No they will not or they already would have... it would hurt a vast majority of the schools and sports and they know it..

 

[mc140]

If the IHSA mandates separate playoffs, but the privates remain under the IHSA umbrella, I wonder about mandates like the 30-mile radius rule. Many of the current restrictions placed on private school are in place to "level the playing field" with public schools. If privates were to no longer compete against public schools in the playoffs, there would be no need to "level the playing field", therefore one wonders if certain restrictions would be abolished. It would be interesting to see how that would play out.

30 mile radius is a joke and easy to get around. Just as easy as it is to go from public to private and play. It is just an address change on paper.

 

[mc140]

mc140, you have first hand knowledge on this particular subject.
as you see it every season. do you honestly think it is beneficial for the area publics to play regularly their private counterparts?

In last 5 years Crete, Reavis, Shepard, Bremen, Rich Central, Tinley, TFN have. I don't know if it has made a difference one way or another. The biggest issue with those games is the lower levels. Particularly with the Frosh. At most schools outside the Lways and 230, you are lucky if half your frosh ever played football before. You go out and play one of these schools and your frosh get railroaded by 50 week one it is hard to get them past that mental barrier if they have never played.

 

[stonedlizard]

Would hate to see a split. As a current fan and former player, part of the fun is seeing new schools in the regular season non-con and playoffs, and that was always partly amplified if the opponent was of the opposite party.

All these conversations end up boiling down to the same haves/have not issues with both sides denying what they have to point out the have nots. I have and continue to contend that the issue is not privates playing publics, 6 or 8 classes, or small enrollment schools beating large enrollment schools. The issue is that we continue to use an outdated measure - a schools enrollment - to classify how competitive they will be with another school.

In today's world more people would have told David to run a way than to stand up against Goliath. Give me an open class, a system to encourage opting into that open class and a way to reward schools that succeed outside that class by promoting them into it. Let's get back to encouraging competition.

 

[moebias]

No they will not or they already would have... it would hurt a vast majority of the schools and sports and they know it..

So you are going to stay in an organization that kicked you out, but remain under their rules and jurisdiction , no one with any sanity is going to do that

If they separate they will separate and not play each other. It will create huge scheduling problems for a variety of schools both public and private in a variety of sports

 

[moebias]

No they will not or they already would have... it would hurt a vast majority of the schools and sports and they know it..

why would they leave now? what you are advocating is kicking the private schools into their own separate class, if the publics do that the privates will form their own league and administer it themselves, not the IHSA

 

[ramblinman]

The issue is that we continue to use an outdated measure - a schools enrollment - to classify how competitive they will be with another school.

100% agree. I would go one step further and say that enrollment is a flawed measure.

However, every time I suggest competitive classifications that are enrollment influenced, not enrollment based, the movement hits the fan with the usual naysayers who can't (or don't want to) understand that playing in a more competitive class would be an honor (as opposed to a punishment) for schools.

Give me an open class, a system to encourage opting into that open class and a way to reward schools that succeed outside that class by promoting them into it. Let's get back to encouraging competition.

I'm all for that.

 

[Cross Bones]

Would hate to see a split. As a current fan and former player, part of the fun is seeing new schools in the regular season non-con and playoffs, and that was always partly amplified if the opponent was of the opposite party.

All these conversations end up boiling down to the same haves/have not issues with both sides denying what they have to point out the have nots. I have and continue to contend that the issue is not privates playing publics, 6 or 8 classes, or small enrollment schools beating large enrollment schools. The issue is that we continue to use an outdated measure - a schools enrollment - to classify how competitive they will be with another school.

In today's world more people would have told David to run a way than to stand up against Goliath. Give me an open class, a system to encourage opting into that open class and a way to reward schools that succeed outside that class by promoting them into it. Let's get back to encouraging competition.

as a public school of 3500, what would we prove in beating a public school of 1000?

 

[stonedlizard]

as a public school of 3500, what would we prove in beating a public school of 1000?

No clue, you tell me. My point is I don't look at a school's competitive level solely based on how many students walk through the door, and I feel the IHSA shouldn't either.

 

[moebias]

That's not going to stop public schools from whining about so called private school advantages when they lose to private schools in the regular season. It's the nature of the public school beast to whine when they lose to private schools -- regular season or playoffs.

Private school advantage is a juicy and expedient excuse to most public schools and fans thereof. Why admit that you lost because you didn't play well or weren't good enough when blaming private school advantage is a much easier sell among public school communities that are predisposed and conditioned to identify private schools to be the scapegoats for their athletic ills? If public schools play private schools and lose, it's the private schools' fault because of a myriad of private school advantages. If public schools don't play private schools and lose to other public schools, it's still the private schools' fault because the private schools picked more cherries from their district than the other one.

Ramblinman,

Lets talk public school advantage....lets say a public school like New Trier or Lake Forest wanted to secure a top notch lacrosse coach, they could offer that person a six figure salary plus an additional stipend along with a publicly funded pension guaranteed by the tax payers...no private school could match that, so where is the out rage about the inequity there?

 

[stonedlizard]

100% agree. I would go one step further and say that enrollment is a flawed measure.

However, every time I suggest competitive classifications that are enrollment influenced, not enrollment based, the movement hits the fan with the usual naysayers who can't (or don't want to) understand that playing in a more competitive class would be an honor (as opposed to a punishment) for schools.



I'm all for that.

I've somewhat, albeit tongue in cheek, proposed what an open class playoffs could have looked like last year and did so again early this year. Still think it's the way to go if people can get around what you've seemingly found as well

 

[Cross Bones]

No clue, you tell me. My point is I don't look at a school's competitive level solely based on how many students walk through the door, and I feel the IHSA shouldn't either.

nothing. nothing at all. How would you judge a school's competitive level before hand?

 

[stonedlizard]

Ramblinman,

Lets talk public school advantage....lets say a public school like New Trier or Lake Forest wanted to secure a top notch lacrosse coach, they could offer that person a six figure salary plus an additional stipend along with a publicly funded pension guaranteed by the tax payers...no private school could match that, so where is the out rage about the inequity there?

It's clear both sides have advantages and disadvantages. Let's get beyond that. How do you solve? Some people want to split, I feel that's a copout and that there's alternative solutions.

 

[Cross Bones]

It's clear both sides have advantages and disadvantages. Let's get beyond that. How do you solve? Some people want to split, I feel that's a copout and that there's alternative solutions.

What are these advantages per side?

 

[stonedlizard]

nothing. nothing at all. How would you judge a school's competitive level before hand?

That's a good and fair question. How do we rank teams in the pre-season? How do we rank teams after week 1?

I don't claim to have a perfect solution, just pointing out enrollment alone doesn't work anymore. Suppose you had some combination of enrollment (ie potential), last 2 seasons results (ie precedence), the strength of your scheduled teams (ie willingness to compete with the best), and some subjective view from coaches/prognosticators. Suppose you set the final classes by the above criteria, but not until the end of the season?

 

[stonedlizard]

What are these advantages per side?

Come on Bones, be better than that!

https://edgytim.forums.rivals.com/threads/if-separation-happened-how-would-it-work.7139/

https://edgytim.forums.rivals.com/threads/yesterdays-blowouts-wake-up-ihsa.6998/

https://edgytim.forums.rivals.com/threads/another-private-thought.7587/

https://edgytim.forums.rivals.com/threads/private-school-question.1556/

https://edgytim.forums.rivals.com/t...ician-coming-after-ihsa-private-schools.1276/

 

[Cross Bones]

That's a good and fair question. How do we rank teams in the pre-season? How do we rank teams after week 1?

I don't claim to have a perfect solution, just pointing out enrollment alone doesn't work anymore. Suppose you had some combination of enrollment (ie potential), last 2 seasons results (ie precedence), the strength of your scheduled teams (ie willingness to compete about the best), and some subjective view from coaches/prognosticators. Suppose you set the final classes by the above criteria, but not until the end of the season?

But the rankings have zero bearing on anything AND no real way to determine whether they are accurate.

I'd say enrollment works just fine when youre dealing with like entities (publics). I dont think enrollment works to classify open enrollment schools though. There I would agree with some sort of competitive level classifications would be best. Good luck figuring that out though. And that is the sole reason we are where we are at. We cant pretend that we are able to classify these schools together