Understood. I'm not a Fenwick guy either so you are correct; saying 'couldn't' and 'wouldn't' was presumptive on my part bc I'm just an observer while others are really experiencing the fallout and may in fact go that route.
Plainfield North @ Fenwick
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Understood. I'm not a Fenwick guy either so you are correct; saying 'couldn't' and 'wouldn't' was presumptive on my part bc I'm just an observer while others are really experiencing the fallout and may in fact go that route.
Correct and their announcement of the reason for that flag ended the game. Until they enforced it incorrectly. The announcement of the penalty ends the game per the rule book. So I'm not going to go in circles with you all day.
Especially when you consider that the Fenwick Principal sits on the IHSA board of directors.
I hope they do seek injunctive relief if for no other reason than to extend the spotlight of public ridicule on the IHSA and make them feel the shame they deserve.
This whole situation is reflective of why I despise the IHSA. They are far more interested in standing by their own officials (even when those officials and the IHSA admit they are wrong) and in saving the adults involved from making difficult decisions than they are about doing right by the schools and students they are supposed to serve. Their CYA mentality and intransigence in this matter results in a lose/lose for everyone.
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LCN,
This is certainly way outside my wheelhouse but complaint could be something like "Fenwick a member school of the IHSA has been defrauded by selective enforcement of Organization Bylaws"I think this could have legs because the IHSA could have enforced its Bylaw that time had expired and no untimed down should have been awarded resulting in Fenwick being the winner 10-7. Instead IHSA has elected to enforce the Bylaw stating they can not over turn officials decisions.
The call to make by IHSA was that by rule under Bylaw 3.x.x.x the game is officially overturned to the outcome at the end of regulation. Let's see where this goes next. Buckle up boys this could get interesting.
This is certainly way outside my wheelhouse but complaint could be something like "Fenwick a member school of the IHSA has been defrauded by selective enforcement of Organization Bylaws"I think this could have legs because the IHSA could have enforced its Bylaw that time had expired and no untimed down should have been awarded resulting in Fenwick being the winner 10-7. Instead IHSA has elected to enforce the Bylaw stating they can not over turn officials decisions.
The call to make by IHSA was that by rule under Bylaw 3.x.x.x the game is officially overturned to the outcome at the end of regulation. Let's see where this goes next. Buckle up boys this could get interesting.
Correct me if I am wrong but the only thing that can be challenged is the bylaw that currently is not allowing for board review right? Let's say that happens, once the board review, they are going to stick with their original ruling. This will go in plenty of circles but the bylaws allow total protection as the game wasn't official over until the refs declare the game over.
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this whole train wreck will certainly make it easier to bring in young guys to the officiating professsion
I understand the frustration from Fenwick fans and was completely shocked when I read what happened after there was such a big deal made out of the Oklahoma St game earlier this year where literally the exact same scenario occurred. I also understand full well the frustrations with the IHSA as an organization. So don't take what I am about to ask the wrong way - I totally understand the rule as it is written and that the fact of the matter is that the rule was enforced incorrectly per the rulebook, and that is a very unfortunate mistake.
My question as a football fan is - is this even a good rule? I had the same exact thought after the Oklahoma St game. I kind of don't like the rule as a football fan. After talking through the scenarios with some other football fan friends, here is my understanding of the rule:
- The game CAN end on a loss of down penalty by the offense
- The reasons for this are because if a team on defense were to be winning, and an offense were to score while committing a penalty like an illegal touch or forward pass, then the defense would be forced to accept the penalty and give the offense another underserved chance or decline the penalty and lose the game.
So the intention of the rule is good. However, if the offense is winning, it really changes things. This rule now allows the offense to commit a penalty to guarantee itself a victory. The offense is essentially allowed to do something outside of the agreed upon rules of football in order to help itself win. That is what I don't like about the rule as a fan. Run out the clock by running around, take a safety, have a receiver in the vicinity of the throw, etc. - anything within the rules. But an intentional breaking of the rules should not be something you can do to help yourself win the game. The other team should not have to lose because you committed a penalty that helps you. I think the rule should be amended to reflect the score because if the offense is winning it changes the intention of the rule.
I might be completely missing a scenario here, and I am completely open to being enlightened on what I'm incorrectly interpreting. I just find it fascinating that this has happened twice this year (on two different levels of football) and think a rule change would make sense. Again, I'm asking this question outside the confines of the mistaken enforcement of the rule (as it is currently written) yesterday and whether or not a team should be awarded a victory after-the-fact.
My question as a football fan is - is this even a good rule? I had the same exact thought after the Oklahoma St game. I kind of don't like the rule as a football fan. After talking through the scenarios with some other football fan friends, here is my understanding of the rule:
- The game CAN end on a loss of down penalty by the offense
- The reasons for this are because if a team on defense were to be winning, and an offense were to score while committing a penalty like an illegal touch or forward pass, then the defense would be forced to accept the penalty and give the offense another underserved chance or decline the penalty and lose the game.
So the intention of the rule is good. However, if the offense is winning, it really changes things. This rule now allows the offense to commit a penalty to guarantee itself a victory. The offense is essentially allowed to do something outside of the agreed upon rules of football in order to help itself win. That is what I don't like about the rule as a fan. Run out the clock by running around, take a safety, have a receiver in the vicinity of the throw, etc. - anything within the rules. But an intentional breaking of the rules should not be something you can do to help yourself win the game. The other team should not have to lose because you committed a penalty that helps you. I think the rule should be amended to reflect the score because if the offense is winning it changes the intention of the rule.
I might be completely missing a scenario here, and I am completely open to being enlightened on what I'm incorrectly interpreting. I just find it fascinating that this has happened twice this year (on two different levels of football) and think a rule change would make sense. Again, I'm asking this question outside the confines of the mistaken enforcement of the rule (as it is currently written) yesterday and whether or not a team should be awarded a victory after-the-fact.
It's not going to happen. Act like an adult and move on. Do it for the kids. Life lesson. Life isn't always fair.
Also to add, a lot of curious comments coming out. please remember that the officials should take heat, as well as the ihsa for not having a supervisor for at least the semis. But anytime a threat or anything along those lines is made , that is really over the top. Most of the officials do it to stay involved in a game they love. Stuff happens. Should they be penalized? Yes, not removed permanently. Maybe a season doing freshmen games would work. But I hope cooler heads prevail. And this comes from someone who would give them a earful back in the day!
Nudo did not know the rule either.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sport...-fenwick-referee-reaction-20161120-story.html
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sport...-fenwick-referee-reaction-20161120-story.html
I was wondering why he was not going nuts over this and FORCING a rule book review.
Almost changes my opinion because of his stupidity, but the right thing for the kids is what matters.
Had he known the rule and made the officials aware of this, this likely would not be an issue.
Almost changes my opinion because of his stupidity, but the right thing for the kids is what matters.
Had he known the rule and made the officials aware of this, this likely would not be an issue.
The annoying Saint Derek of Rochester would have been on top of this for sure.
And he'd be right to do so.
And he'd be right to do so.
Caught the end of the replay on CN100 yesterday, was shocked when fenwick decided to take knees and then shocked again when fenwick didn't argue against the call.
All in all it's a shitty situation for everyone involved and feel bad for both teams
There's some precedent for overturning, albeit in another state.
http://www.maxpreps.com/news/HSJ141...game-reversed;-mississippi-team-sent-home.htm
http://www.maxpreps.com/news/HSJ141...game-reversed;-mississippi-team-sent-home.htm
One way to make sure this NEVER happens again, add 2 simple and unforgettable rules to the rule book requiring:
I) No official may officiate a high school football game in the state of Illinois without a hard copy of the most recent rule book in his/her pocket at all times. The head official shall not start a game until he/she has verified compliance with this rule.
II) In any final period, when a flag is thrown on a play during which the game clock runs down to zero:
1. The officials will meet privately near midfield.
2. Each official will be required to state to the group of officials his/her opinion regarding proper procedures, citing the section of the rule book and reading it aloud from his/her copy of the rule book.
3. The head official will then announce his/her ruling.
4. The game will not have officially ended until the head official signals from the field that the game has ended.
I) No official may officiate a high school football game in the state of Illinois without a hard copy of the most recent rule book in his/her pocket at all times. The head official shall not start a game until he/she has verified compliance with this rule.
II) In any final period, when a flag is thrown on a play during which the game clock runs down to zero:
1. The officials will meet privately near midfield.
2. Each official will be required to state to the group of officials his/her opinion regarding proper procedures, citing the section of the rule book and reading it aloud from his/her copy of the rule book.
3. The head official will then announce his/her ruling.
4. The game will not have officially ended until the head official signals from the field that the game has ended.
Just heard that the officials in the PN/F game that were slated to do a title game have been replaced.
MOTHER F%#@ WHY IS THIS THREAD ALIVE?
It's an elaborate attempt by this board to scare you this Halloween. We have been conspiring for months on our plan. Happy Halloween TPF
Edgy can flush this and it will be fine.
Details I heard were CC down 28-24 driving. 4th down jump ball in end zone. Wilmington kid comes up immediately with ball. Back judge calls TD, other ref calls touchback. Also was a flag on play.
After about 15 minutes, they decide flag was offensive PI, Wilmington interception so penalty was declined. Wilmo gets ball at 20 and runs out the clock to win.
Point of the post wasn’t that they screwed up the call, by most accounts they ultimately got it correct. It just was a tough play from refs standpoint, and a long delay that didn’t look good. Glad I’m not a ref.
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