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Why don't more Catholic Universities have major D-1 Football?

mullin17

Well-Known Member
Jul 2, 2001
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BC and ND are viable.

Why not Georgetown in DC? St. John in NYC? Creighton in Omaha? Gonzaga? Marquette? Villanova?
Major cities, with huge backings in Basketball.
I know some schools had it in the past and folded the programs.
Seems like they would have a decent following, ie $.

Maybe someone has an explanation for me.
 
All I can say it’s extremely expensive to start a D1 football program. Building training and practice facilities, hiring coaches and staffs then providing scholarships....then with the schools you mentioned, many of the them are in major downtown city areas so space is limited. Marquette would have to build a new stadium because I don’t think Miller Park wants Football played there on a regular basis.
 
All I can say it’s extremely expensive to start a D1 football program. Building training and practice facilities, hiring coaches and staffs then providing scholarships....then with the schools you mentioned, many of the them are in major downtown city areas so space is limited. Marquette would have to build a new stadium because I don’t think Miller Park wants Football played there on a regular basis.
1. I understand $, but you have to spend $ to make $. College FB is a business.
All the schools I named have huge endowments, they would grow with the addition of FB.
Creighton is a great example. If they would have FB, wouldn't they take 20-30% of the Neb football fanbase?
2. All these private schools Miami, Temple, USC, Syracuse etc. can sustain it, why cant they?
3. Having a FB Team is an enrollment booster
 
1. I understand $, but you have to spend $ to make $. College FB is a business.
All the schools I named have huge endowments, they would grow with the addition of FB.
Creighton is a great example. If they would have FB, wouldn't they take 20-30% of the Neb football fanbase?
2. All these private schools Miami, Temple, USC, Syracuse etc. can sustain it, why cant they?
3. Having a FB Team is an enrollment booster
You think Creighton would take that much of Nebraska's fan base? No chance.
 
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Excellent question.
Most of the larger Catholic colleges had top-level football into the 50s: Loyola of LA, Santa Clara, St. Mary's, San Francisco (Unbeaten, Untied and Uninvited) Portland, Gonzaga. Loyola of NO, Marquette and Detroit had solid teams. Xavier kept it going into the 70s (they were Marshall's first win following their plane crash on this date in 1970).
A few years ago, when the first incarnation of the Big East had football and were looking to expand, they asked Villanova if they wanted to step up from 1AA/FCS to 1A/FBS. Villanova conducted a study and realized they had the school and alumni support after pointing out that the elevation would come with increased revenue. When VU responded that they wanted to proceed, the Big East got cold feet (I suspect Temple (a public school) came begging back at this point) and it never happened.

Also, Fordham, Georgetown, San Diego, Dayton, Holy Cross are in 1AA/FCS - and the UST Tommies are stepping up from D3 next year.
 
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You think Creighton would take that much of Nebraska's fan base? No chance.
I do, when given an option of NEB or CRE
Cubs/Sox
Iowa/IA St
KS/KSU as examples
Nebraska has a huge FB fan base.
Football is huge in Neb.
Creighton, in the biggest city in Neb, would or could draw 40,000 a home game.
 
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Excellent question.
Most of the larger Catholic colleges had top-level football into the 50s: Loyola of LA, Santa Clara, St. Mary's, San Francisco (Unbeaten, Untied and Uninvited) Portland, Gonzaga. Loyola of NO, Marquette and Detroit had solid teams. Xavier kept it going into the 70s (they were Marshall's first win following their plane crash on this date in 1970).
A few years ago, when the first incarnation of the Big East had football and were looking to expand, they asked Villanova if they wanted to step up from 1AA/FCS to 1A/FBS. Villanova conducted a study and realized they had the school and alumni support after pointing out that the elevation would come with increased revenue. When VU responded that they wanted to proceed, the Big East got cold feet (I suspect Temple (a public school) came begging back at this point) and it never happened.

Also, Fordham, Georgetown, San Diego, Dayton, Holy Cross are in 1AA/FCS - and the UST Tommies are stepping up from D3 next year.
Great reply. Why those schools you named stopped in the 50s-60s? War? $? Title IX?
Nova had a great 1-AA run
The Big East football conference was a joke, so I understand Nova opting out.
 
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I do, when given an option of NEB or CRE
Cubs/Sox
Iowa/IA St
KS/KSU as examples
Nebraska has a huge FB fan base.
Football is huge in Neb.
Creighton, in the biggest city in Neb, would or could draw 40,000 a home game.
Omaha is the biggest city in Nebraska.... but the biggest “thing” in Nebraska is Nebraska football. It’s a very intelligent state too. They put the big “N” on the helmet to promote Nowledge!!
 
This was already touched on but land is so much more expensive in large cities. Not only is it expensive to build the facilities, but to acquire the land. And large cities don't support the D1 public college football teams (attendance wise) much. Why would a Catholic school be any better? BC has pathetic attendance. And when you have pro sports teams in town that makes it even more challenging. Mullin17... have you ever seen a home Temple game? 17,000 fans in a 70,000 seat stadium even when the team is good. Regarding Creighton... 80% of the Nebraska population is NOT Catholic. No way they could draw 40k. You are right mullin17, D1 football is like a business, that is exactly why the Catholic Universities are smart enough to not field D1 football.
 
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ND and BC will probably continue to be the only Catholic schools playing D1 football. I’m not that familiar with the BC history but I have a fairly decent grasp on ND’s history.

If it weren’t for the war years of the ‘40’s ND might not be playing D1 football either. ND started a relationship with the USNA back in the 30’s. ND trained Navy officers , during the war years . The school exploded with talent during these years and Army , Navy and ND competed at the top of the college football world. ND rode the glory years surrounding WW2 to where they are today.
Its an oversimplified version of the entire story but I’m not too far off base here.
 
I would like to see that Loyola Marymount college basketball run and gun team from their hay day teams offense converted to the football field.

That would be the fastest offensive pace of football we would have ever seen.
 
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I would like to see that Loyola Marymount college basketball run and gun team from their hay day teams offense converted to the football field.

That would be the fastest offensive pace of football we would have ever seen.
The Guru of Go
 
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Great reply. Why those schools you named stopped in the 50s-60s? War? $? Title IX?
Nova had a great 1-AA run
The Big East football conference was a joke, so I understand Nova opting out.
Villanova opted in. There were a few variables in play at the time: the Big East had morphed from the premier basketball conference to an odd hybrid: D1 bball/fball schools plus the D1/D1AA bball/fball schools. Temple was in from 1991-2004 before their membership was rescinded like an honorary degree to Bill Cosby. Then when conference musical chairs were being played and teams left for the ACC, they saw Villanova as a representative for the Philly market.
As for the other schools, they all decided on their own for a variety of reasons. Keep in mind, it was almost seen as a smartypants move to "discontinue football in lieu of our recommitment to our academic pursuits." Now most of these schools are looking to raise their profile to get more kids to attend.
 
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I would like to see that Loyola Marymount college basketball run and gun team from their hay day teams offense converted to the football field.

That would be the fastest offensive pace of football we would have ever seen.
There have been multiple teams who run a style like that. Oregon and Auburn come to mind. Also, UCF of old and Memphis.
 
Not sure what this has to do with Catholic colleges playing/not playing football, but you need to look no farther than Grinnell College in Iowa, a Midwest Conference team at the D-3 level to find the ultimate hot spot for the style of hoops you are looking for. About 8 years ago, a Grinnell player had 138 points in ONE game.
 
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I run it is title 9. Football is far and away the most expensive sport.
 
Excellent question.
Most of the larger Catholic colleges had top-level football into the 50s: Loyola of LA, Santa Clara, St. Mary's, San Francisco (Unbeaten, Untied and Uninvited) Portland, Gonzaga. Loyola of NO, Marquette and Detroit had solid teams. Xavier kept it going into the 70s (they were Marshall's first win following their plane crash on this date in 1970).
A few years ago, when the first incarnation of the Big East had football and were looking to expand, they asked Villanova if they wanted to step up from 1AA/FCS to 1A/FBS. Villanova conducted a study and realized they had the school and alumni support after pointing out that the elevation would come with increased revenue. When VU responded that they wanted to proceed, the Big East got cold feet (I suspect Temple (a public school) came begging back at this point) and it never happened.

Also, Fordham, Georgetown, San Diego, Dayton, Holy Cross are in 1AA/FCS - and the UST Tommies are stepping up from D3 next year.

Are the Tommies going to compete at the D1 level in every sport? I was under the impression that if you compete in one sport as D1, you have to be D1 in every sport. This was the reason that schools like USD and Dayton moved to D1 from D3 in football years ago.
 
Yup. Joining the Summit League


Are the Tommies going to compete at the D1 level in every sport? I was under the impression that if you compete in one sport as D1, you have to be D1 in every sport. This was the reason that schools like USD and Dayton moved to D1 from D3 in football years ago.
 
This is actually pretty interesting, and not entirely uncomplicated. The reason why Dayton moved to NCAA D-1 in the 1990s from playing at the NCAA D-3 level is that the NCAA passed a rule that says a school that plays NCAA D-1 in either men's hoops or football MUST play D-1 in both sports. The reason is that Dayton, of course, was D-1 in hoops and has long had a competitive program. In football, the Flyers at the D-3 level were kind of a dominant program, in the 1970s and 1980s as they reached the NCAA D-3 tournament championship game I think five times and won the darn title twice before the rule was passed forcing them to play D-1 football if they were going to stay with D-1 men's basketball. But there's actually more to this. Even though it plays D-1 football out of necessity, Dayton has ZERO football scholarships that they offer. None. A high school player cannot get a football scholarship to Dayton because there are none. That's I guess because when it was a D-3 program, Dayton of course had ZERO football scholarships as there are no D-3 football schlarships. Nevertheless, Dayton has had success playing at its D-1 (aka 1-AA) level so they are succeeding without football scholarships.
Anyway, the other point brought up ... a school has to be D-1 or D-2 o D-3 in ALL sports. That's a negative.
First of all, remove basketball and football from the equation because that's what the NCAA does. As for all other sports, let's use the University of Minnesota-Deluth as the example. They are the example because it won the NCAA D-1 men's ice hockey national championship last spring, just before Covid-19 shut everything down. UM-D plays at the NCAA D-2 level in every sport except men's ice hockey.
The NCAA allows a school to play ONE men's sport and ONE women's sport at the D-1 level, while playing at D-2 or D-3 in all other sports. Apparently, the most common "one-offs" are ice hockey and fencing.
Finally, and. yes this is long and boring, when it comes to D-1 football, in order to play at that level, a school has to average 15,000 fans once in a two-year period, otherwise it loses D-1 status. This I believe comes into play in a bizarre way in the Mid-American Conference. Because the league took ESPN'S money and plays on Tuesdays and Wednesdays instead of on Saturdays, attendance at the MAC schools' games is not close to that number. According to the NCAA, average home attendance for MAC teams in 2019 was 15,300 or so....just above the cut-off point. BUT, I believe I read stories about several schools in the MAC that actually buy tickets to their own games so can reach the 15,000 threshold. In other words, if NIU draws an average of 5,000 fans per home game, then the school pays for 10,000 additional tickets, and I assume that money goes like to the NCAA and/or the visiting or whatever. Clearly, the MAC schools feel it's better to play on TV than have more fans in the stands and go unnoticed on Saturdays.
Anyway, I just thought it was kind of interesting.
 
This is actually pretty interesting, and not entirely uncomplicated. The reason why Dayton moved to NCAA D-1 in the 1990s from playing at the NCAA D-3 level is that the NCAA passed a rule that says a school that plays NCAA D-1 in either men's hoops or football MUST play D-1 in both sports. The reason is that Dayton, of course, was D-1 in hoops and has long had a competitive program. In football, the Flyers at the D-3 level were kind of a dominant program, in the 1970s and 1980s as they reached the NCAA D-3 tournament championship game I think five times and won the darn title twice before the rule was passed forcing them to play D-1 football if they were going to stay with D-1 men's basketball. But there's actually more to this. Even though it plays D-1 football out of necessity, Dayton has ZERO football scholarships that they offer. None. A high school player cannot get a football scholarship to Dayton because there are none. That's I guess because when it was a D-3 program, Dayton of course had ZERO football scholarships as there are no D-3 football schlarships. Nevertheless, Dayton has had success playing at its D-1 (aka 1-AA) level so they are succeeding without football scholarships.
Anyway, the other point brought up ... a school has to be D-1 or D-2 o D-3 in ALL sports. That's a negative.
First of all, remove basketball and football from the equation because that's what the NCAA does. As for all other sports, let's use the University of Minnesota-Deluth as the example. They are the example because it won the NCAA D-1 men's ice hockey national championship last spring, just before Covid-19 shut everything down. UM-D plays at the NCAA D-2 level in every sport except men's ice hockey.
The NCAA allows a school to play ONE men's sport and ONE women's sport at the D-1 level, while playing at D-2 or D-3 in all other sports. Apparently, the most common "one-offs" are ice hockey and fencing.
Finally, and. yes this is long and boring, when it comes to D-1 football, in order to play at that level, a school has to average 15,000 fans once in a two-year period, otherwise it loses D-1 status. This I believe comes into play in a bizarre way in the Mid-American Conference. Because the league took ESPN'S money and plays on Tuesdays and Wednesdays instead of on Saturdays, attendance at the MAC schools' games is not close to that number. According to the NCAA, average home attendance for MAC teams in 2019 was 15,300 or so....just above the cut-off point. BUT, I believe I read stories about several schools in the MAC that actually buy tickets to their own games so can reach the 15,000 threshold. In other words, if NIU draws an average of 5,000 fans per home game, then the school pays for 10,000 additional tickets, and I assume that money goes like to the NCAA and/or the visiting or whatever. Clearly, the MAC schools feel it's better to play on TV than have more fans in the stands and go unnoticed on Saturdays.
Anyway, I just thought it was kind of interesting.
Sadly, I think you could give the tickets away and it still wouldn't make a difference. Not that long ago NIU was killing it and a borderline top 20 team a few years times and their fans still didn't show up. The MAC plays some fun, wide open and entertaining football too.
 
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Sadly, I think you could give the tickets away and it still wouldn't make a difference. Not that long ago NIU was killing it and a borderline top 20 team a few years times and their fans still didn't show up. The MAC plays some fun, wide open and entertaining football too.
I also appreciate that NIU will allow you to go in and out of the stadium during the game.
 
This is actually pretty interesting, and not entirely uncomplicated. The reason why Dayton moved to NCAA D-1 in the 1990s from playing at the NCAA D-3 level is that the NCAA passed a rule that says a school that plays NCAA D-1 in either men's hoops or football MUST play D-1 in both sports. The reason is that Dayton, of course, was D-1 in hoops and has long had a competitive program. In football, the Flyers at the D-3 level were kind of a dominant program, in the 1970s and 1980s as they reached the NCAA D-3 tournament championship game I think five times and won the darn title twice before the rule was passed forcing them to play D-1 football if they were going to stay with D-1 men's basketball. But there's actually more to this. Even though it plays D-1 football out of necessity, Dayton has ZERO football scholarships that they offer. None. A high school player cannot get a football scholarship to Dayton because there are none. That's I guess because when it was a D-3 program, Dayton of course had ZERO football scholarships as there are no D-3 football schlarships. Nevertheless, Dayton has had success playing at its D-1 (aka 1-AA) level so they are succeeding without football scholarships.
Anyway, the other point brought up ... a school has to be D-1 or D-2 o D-3 in ALL sports. That's a negative.
First of all, remove basketball and football from the equation because that's what the NCAA does. As for all other sports, let's use the University of Minnesota-Deluth as the example. They are the example because it won the NCAA D-1 men's ice hockey national championship last spring, just before Covid-19 shut everything down. UM-D plays at the NCAA D-2 level in every sport except men's ice hockey.
The NCAA allows a school to play ONE men's sport and ONE women's sport at the D-1 level, while playing at D-2 or D-3 in all other sports. Apparently, the most common "one-offs" are ice hockey and fencing.
Finally, and. yes this is long and boring, when it comes to D-1 football, in order to play at that level, a school has to average 15,000 fans once in a two-year period, otherwise it loses D-1 status. This I believe comes into play in a bizarre way in the Mid-American Conference. Because the league took ESPN'S money and plays on Tuesdays and Wednesdays instead of on Saturdays, attendance at the MAC schools' games is not close to that number. According to the NCAA, average home attendance for MAC teams in 2019 was 15,300 or so....just above the cut-off point. BUT, I believe I read stories about several schools in the MAC that actually buy tickets to their own games so can reach the 15,000 threshold. In other words, if NIU draws an average of 5,000 fans per home game, then the school pays for 10,000 additional tickets, and I assume that money goes like to the NCAA and/or the visiting or whatever. Clearly, the MAC schools feel it's better to play on TV than have more fans in the stands and go unnoticed on Saturdays.
Anyway, I just thought it was kind of interesting.


The Pioneer conference, which Dayton is part of, is made up entirely of D1 (FCS) schools which do not offer football scholarships. The University of San Diego has been quite successful with this model. USD has dominated the conference and even won a couple of playoff games.
 
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The Pioneer conference, which Dayton is part up, is made up entirely of D1 (FBS) schools which do not offer football scholarships. The University of San Diego has been quite successful with this model. USD has dominated the conference and even won a couple of playoff games.
D-1 FCS.
 
Students that go to Georgetown and some of the other private/Catholic universities do not go for the party scene, the tailgating or the school spirit, they are there for the degree. Even Big Conference D1 schools like Cal don’t draw a football crowd because the students are there for the education. G-Town had some huge years in hoops when Big John was at the helm but those days are long gone. When the Big East Hoops came apart so did a lot of those smaller programs like St. John’s Providence and Seton Hall.
 
Students that go to Georgetown and some of the other private/Catholic universities do not go for the party scene, the tailgating or the school spirit, they are there for the degree. Even Big Conference D1 schools like Cal don’t draw a football crowd because the students are there for the education. G-Town had some huge years in hoops when Big John was at the helm but those days are long gone. When the Big East Hoops came apart so did a lot of those smaller programs like St. John’s Providence and Seton Hall.

Hunter Biden, BA History, Georgetown 1992.
 
Hilarious!

Catholic schools are some of the wildest schools out there.

The local HS Catholic school in my hometown had a yearly casino night to raise funds for the sports boosters. Lot of alcohol involved.
 
1. I understand $, but you have to spend $ to make $. College FB is a business.
All the schools I named have huge endowments, they would grow with the addition of FB.
Creighton is a great example. If they would have FB, wouldn't they take 20-30% of the Neb football fanbase?
2. All these private schools Miami, Temple, USC, Syracuse etc. can sustain it, why cant they?
3. Having a FB Team is an enrollment booster

One factor which likely was very important for extracurricular activities, particularly sports, is that many larger urban universities were not designed as residential schools. DePaul, for example, is the largest Catholic university in the country, less than 15,000 students, and has less than 3000 students living in the dorms on its two campuses in Chicago. A quick review of the housing website makes me think lots of those dorm buildings are relatively new. It is difficult to encourage football without on-campus support and enthusiasm...Look at your Chicago schools...Chicago State remains primarily a commuter campus...UIC is still a commuter campus, despite building a couple dorms about 20 years ago...

Second, the cost of acreage for facilities is overwhelming. DePaul, for example, doesn't have a track - the Blue Demons go to Lane for the track...1000 seat soccer stadiums would need massive upgrades if they want to try football (DePaul, Loyola, UIC).

And Creighton is in a position where a stadium for football is unrealistic. The baseball stadium, which host the NCAA World Series, seats 24,000, the basketball arena seats 17,400, the soccer stadium seats 7500. I suppose they could use the soccer stadium, but support facilities? Nebraska-Omaha, which won 8 conference titles the last 15 years they were D2, 14 straight winning seasons, dropped 100 years of football and wrestling when they went D1 rather than rejoin their former North Central Conference foes UND, NDSU, USD, and SDSU...UNO had a 3000 seat football stadium, the others have 3 domes (2 municipally owned) and a newly reconstructed 19,000 seat outdoor stadium. UNO built a new hockey/basketball arena that opened in 2015 with 7800 seats. The Creighton market probably can't support another 15,000 seat venue.
 
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Hilarious!

Catholic schools are some of the wildest schools out there.

The local HS Catholic school in my hometown had a yearly casino night to raise funds for the sports boosters. Lot of alcohol involved.
Where I grew up back in the early 80's, the local catholic church/school had a festival every August. It was typically the first place most neighborhood kids had their first drink and/or learned how to do some gambling. Everyone was there and no one cared. It was right out of Bronx Tale.
 
You think Creighton would take that much of Nebraska's fan base? No chance.

Creighton doesn't need football. They have a very succesful basketball program. They have the 5th highest attendance in hoops plus the TV money they get from the Big East makes it very profitable for them.
 
With respect to St Thomas, they're going D1 FCS starting 2021, in the Pioneer League, as has been noted. The long term plan though, it to move to scholarships in FCS, and (likely) the Missouri Valley Conference. Whether this is 5, 10 or 15 years down the road, that isn't clear, but as a university building a legit D1 sports department, they have their sights on that goal. (edit...this will likely be for football only).

Interesting side note...the commissioner of the Pioneer League, is also the senior associate commissioner of the Missouri Valley Conference.

Will be interesting to see how this plays out.
 
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Been thinking about that NCAA Division 1 league with Dayton and university of Sam Diego in which there are no football scholarships available.
I wonder if the Title 9 rule requiring schools to have same number of athletic scholarships available for men’s sports and women’s sports is a factor.
If you add let’s just say 50 football scholarships you also are going to need to add maybe 3 women’s sports to be offering 50 total additional athletic scholarships for women.
also in regard to catholic schools adding D1 football I wonder if DePaul could play hone games at soldier field, that woujd solve the game stadium issue. I mean DePaul already plays men’s hoops within walking distance of soldier field.
 
Students that go to Georgetown and some of the other private/Catholic universities do not go for the party scene, the tailgating or the school spirit, they are there for the degree.

I think a significant percentage of students at Dayton might disagree with you on that.
 
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