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Make the Playoffs Great Again

stonedlizard

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Oct 4, 2009
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Gentlemen and Rolling Meadow's Moms, not too long ago there was a great thread amongst a dirty dozen posters debating the ins and outs of the existing playoff classification process. The main question at hand - does enrollment based playoff classification provide a suitable means for ensuring competitive balance across a given class?

A myriad of arguments were made for both sides..."enrollment works fine for publics but not privates"...."there are too many early round blowouts"..."blowouts are a given"...."what about Rochester?"...etc, etc, but the conversation ultimately stalled due to a lack of formal alternative. If enrollment based didn't work, what could replace it? How would that system work? What were the details? These questions proved to be the great wall of Mexico preventing constructive thought moving between the two countries of ideology.

Being a bit data driven/scientific method minded, thought of this as an opportunity to see if, perhaps, an alternative to enrollment based classifications could be devised. My findings follow. This may be a bit long, so I'll add some headers to those who wish to see the pure results. With that in mind, let's kick things off...

Warning: Nerd Analysis Alert :Warning

The Theory:

Enrollment based classification has not proven to be an adequate classification means for providing competitive equity across a given class. This is proven through the need to "reclassify" certain privates via the success factor, the success of certain publics not subject to the success factor within specific classes, the number of early round blowouts, and the consistent winning of titles by a relatively small number of schools (both private and public). I should note that in no way does the following system completely eliminate any of the above issues. However, I do feel that it addresses and reduces the likelihood of each. There will always be a handful of blowouts. There will always be a team that can run through their given class (unless we adopted my previously proposed Open class, story for another day though ;)).

The Concept:

Competition is good. Teams/High School students learn more and become better through competition. Competing against teams of equal or relatively close to equal strengths/weaknesses, ie competitive balance, is more valuable than competing against teams of far greater/lesser competitive equity. Over time, schools will generally prove where they fall on a competitive equity scale. We can use data to prove and classify these schools appropriately.

The first requirement for this system is to accept that we are moving away from 1-8A enrollment based classifications. Erase that concept from your mind for the purposes of reading the rest of this post. Instead, imagine something similar to the Premier League in the UK. Classes group teams with other teams based on an approximation of competitive balance across the class. As teams prove that they are consistently better than their current class, they are moved up to the next level (1A to 2A). If they continue to prove they are better than that class, they are moved up again. If they have some success, some failure, they may remain. Finally, if that class proves to be too much over time, they may fall back down. This is a fluid system, teams may spike for a a few years before regressing. They may also plummet a few years before regressing.

This is also not an attempt to "punish" or "prevent" successful teams from winning championships. With the Premier League model, simply qualifying for the top league is a massive achievement for some squads. The same concept applies here. The 32nd seed in the NWO 8A is a massive achievement, it means you have proven over the course of your recent history, strength of schedule and the results of the current season that you are a top level program. Something to respect and cherish. I can imagine the number of "8A or 7A qualifications" becoming measuring stick of sorts for some of the top level programs today. However, this does not take away from any of the lower levels in the same sense that a 3A championship isn't belittled in today's world by the fact that they aren't 8A. Every eventual champion is a proven winner and champ amongst their peers.

Finally, let's reward risk and challenging oneself. Enough of the "whoa is me" "safe spaces". To be the best, beat the best. Teams that are willing to schedule tough opponents, whether they win or lose, should be rewarded for that willingness. If they happen to win, it should reflect in how that team is judged and classified. Teams that consistently win over time against other top teams should be rewarded with the chance to play and beat the best to prove their supremacy.

How it works:

On to the good stuff. I will freely admit that this is somewhat based on how the Southern SIC section of California with a little of my own twist. Follow along closely....

The process begins by acknowledging that under a "competitive equity" system playing a team above or below you in class should be treated accordingly. Playing a team above you in class, and beating that team, should be 'worth' more than beating a team in your class or below. Alternatively, playing and beating a team 'below' you in class should be worth less than playing and beating a team in your own class. Playing a playoff game in your class should also be 'worth' more than playing a regular season game against an opponent in your class.

This concept gives us a point - we'll call these power points - system we can apply to each game based on the class your opponent was in...

Class - Regular Season W - Regular Season L - Playoff W - Playoff L
8A - 64 - 52 - 72 - 60
7A - 56 - 44 - 64 - 52
6A - 48 - 36 - 56 - 44
5A - 40 - 28 - 48 - 36
4A - 32 - 20 - 40 - 28
3A - 24 - 12 - 32 - 20
2A - 16 - 4 - 24 - 12
1A - 8 - (-4) - 16 - 4

Meaning I get 64 power points for beating an 8A opponent in the regular season, 52 for losing. I get 32 power points for beating a 4A opponent in the regular season, and 20 for losing, etc.

Now, let's go back in time to the beginning of this year, and pretend we have now cutover to this new system...
  • The first thing we'll do is go back over the past two years (2014 and 2015)and calculate the total number of power points each team has earned based on the above table.
  • For 2014/2015, we'll have to calculate power points based on the opponents enrollment based classification. So Morton is 8A for these purposes (in 2017 you would have 1 historical year of enrollment based classification, and 1 historical year of power point based, 2018 would be all power point based).
  • Once totaled for each team, we can separate them into 8 equal "pre season" classifications. Here's are the top power points based on 2014/2015...
  • Glen Ellyn (Glenbard West)
    Flossmoor (Homewood-F.)
    Cary (C.-Grove)
    Libertyville
    Lincolnshire (Stevenson)
    Aurora (Waubonsie Valley)
    Naperville (Central)
    Wilmette (Loyola Academy)
    Palatine (H.S.)
    Winnetka (New Trier)
  • These teams become part of the 68 "8A Preseason teams" for 2016. Anyone who plays them will earn the 8A level power points from the table above. For those that are interested, Montini, PR, SHG, Rochester, Naz also earned pre season 8A classifications.
  • At the end of 2016 regular season, we apply the same logic from table above, using the pre season classifications, to results of the regular season games
  • What we're left with is a power point total from the past two seasons + playoffs (how historically good are they?) and a power point total from this regular season (how'd they do this year). To that we apply a simple formula to get a weighted point total...
  • ((Average Points from past two years)*1/3)+(Current year regular season Points*2/3)
  • This gives us the power point total we will use for playoff classification purposes in place of enrollment numbers used today
 
The Results:


No change in playoff qualification. Same rules apply, we take the automatic qualifiers, then your 9 win, 8 win, 7 win, 6 win teams. We then can use the standard IHSA playoff points to determine the 5-4 teams that get in (I modeled it using power points instead and got the same results, go figure, pick your poison).

Once the field of 256 is determined, we sort them by weighted power points calculated above instead of enrollments, then separate into 8 classes. Simple as that. Without further delay...here is what your 2016 playoff field could have looked like. Teams are shown from top to bottom in terms of total power points (keep in mind, I don't think this would be appropriate for seeding)

8A

Glen Ellyn (Glenbard West)
Flossmoor (Homewood-F.)
Palatine (H.S.)
Winnetka (New Trier)
Wilmette (Loyola Academy) 2016 8A Runner Up
Lincolnshire (Stevenson)
Cary (C.-Grove)
Barrington
Aurora (Waubonsie Valley)
Frankfort (Lincoln-Way East)
Libertyville
Hinsdale (Central)
Park Ridge (Maine South) 2016 8A Champ
Oak Park (O.P.-River Forest)
Oswego (H.S.)
Batavia
Naperville (Neuqua Valley)
Chicago (Marist)
LaGrange (Lyons)
St. Charles (North)
East St. Louis (Sr.) 2016 7A Champ
Lemont (H.S.)
Lake Forest (H.S.)
LaGrange Park (Nazareth Academy)
Edwardsville (H.S.)
Lombard (Montini)
Aurora (West Aurora)
Carol Stream (Glenbard North)
Lisle (Benet Academy)
Crystal Lake (Prairie Ridge) 2016 6A Champ
Chicago (Brother Rice)
Palatine (Fremd)

7A

Naperville (North)
Bradley (B.-Bourbonnais)
New Lenox (Lincoln-Way West)
Lake Zurich
Huntley
St. Charles (East)
Oak Lawn (Richards)
Belleville (West)
Lockport (Twp.)
Chicago (Simeon)
Rolling Meadows
Evanston (Twp.)
Oswego (East)
Plainfield (North) 2016 7A Runner Up
Normal (Community)
Niles (Notre Dame)
Joliet (West)
Villa Park (Willowbrook)
Hoffman Estates (H.S.)
Northbrook (Glenbrook North)
O'Fallon (H.S.)
Franklin Park-Northlake (Leyden)
Rockford (Auburn)
Highland Park
DeKalb
Woodstock (Marian)
Chicago (Curie)
New Lenox (Lincoln-Way Central)
Algonquin (Jacobs)
Springfield (Sacred Heart-Griffin) 2016 6A Runner Up
Chicago (Phillips)
Peoria (H.S.) 2016 5A Champ

6A

Mundelein (Carmel)
Peoria (Notre Dame)
Wheeling
Arlington Heights (St. Viator)
Oak Park (Fenwick)
Crete (C.-Monee)
Chicago (St. Rita)
Burbank (Reavis)
McHenry
Deerfield (H.S.)
Rochester 2016 4A Champ
Rockton (Hononegah)
Rockford (Boylan Catholic)
Sterling (H.S.)
Machesney Park (Harlem)
Normal (Community West)
Antioch
Vernon Hills 2016 5A Runner Up
Lake Villa (Lakes)
Grayslake (North)
Quincy (Sr.)
Palos Heights (Shepard)
Lansing (Thornton Fractional South)
Rock Island (H.S.)
Olympia Fields (Rich Central)
Oak Forest
Country Club Hills (Hillcrest)
Sycamore (H.S.)
Morris
Belleville (Althoff Catholic)
Galesburg (H.S.)
Chatham (Glenwood)

5A

Washington
Danville (H.S.)
Chicago (Taft)
Geneseo
Chicago (De La Salle)
Decatur (Eisenhower)
Aurora (Marmion Academy)
Riverside (R.-Brookfield)
Kankakee (Sr.)
Jacksonville (H.S.)
Chicago Heights (Bloom Twp.)
Metamora
Glen Ellyn (Glenbard South)
Chicago (Morgan Park)
Wauconda
Pekin
Chicago (Hubbard)
Dolton (Thornridge)
Burbank (St. Laurence)
South Holland (Thornwood)
Chicago (Lincoln Park)
Bloomington (H.S.)
Troy (Triad)
Rochelle
Chicago (St. Ignatius College Prep)
Elmhurst (IC Catholic) 2016 3A Champ
Dunlap
Highland
Marion (H.S.)
Canton
Chicago (Solorio Academy)
Johnsburg 2016 4A Runner Up

4A


Mt. Zion
Taylorville
Chicago (Westinghouse College Prep)
Centralia (H.S.)
Bloomington (Central Catholic)
Herrin (H.S.)
Mattoon
Mt. Carmel
West Chicago (Wheaton Academy)
Wilmington
Waterloo (H.S.)
Rockford (Lutheran)
Richmond (R.-Burton)
Bethalto (Civic Memorial)
Chicago (Perspectives/Leadership) [Coop]
Mahomet (M.-Seymour)
Norridge (Ridgewood)
Manteno
Byron
Marengo
Woodstock (North)
Plano
Breese (Mater Dei)
Aurora (Central Catholic)
Herscher
Coal City
Dixon (H.S.)
Genoa (G.-Kingston)
Columbia
St. Joseph (S.J.-Ogden)
Westchester (St. Joseph)
Carterville

3A

Williamsville
Chillicothe (Illinois Valley Central)
Carlinville 2016 3A Runner Up
Tolono (Unity)
Pana (H.S.)
Breese (Central)
Winnebago
Maroa (M.-Forsyth)
Lisle (Sr.)
Anna (A.-Jonesboro)
Virden (North Mac)
Vandalia
Sterling (Newman Central Catholic)
Auburn
West Frankfort (Frankfort)
Athens [Coop]
Chicago (Payton)
Monticello
Nashville
Newton
Hillsboro
Greenville
Chicago (Urban Prep/Bronzeville)
Downs (Tri-Valley)
Marshall
Chicago (Clark)
Chicago (Corliss)
Champaign (St. Thomas More)
Chicago (South Shore)
Chicago (Uplift)
Fulton (H.S.)
DuQuoin (H.S.)

2A

Red Bud
Taylor Ridge (Rockridge)
Eldorado
Peru (St. Bede)
Tuscola
Chicago (Goode STEM Academy)
Olney (Richland County)
Bridgeport (Red Hill)
Orion
Elmwood [E.-Brimfield Coop]
Fairfield
Kewanee (Wethersfield) [A.-Wethersfield Coop] 2016 2A Runner Up
Decatur (St. Teresa) 2016 1A Runner Up

Flora
Johnston City
Princeton [Coop]
Momence
Carmi (C.-White County)
Farmington
Paxton (P.-Buckley-Loda)
Kewanee (H.S.)
Bismarck (B.-Henning)
Clifton (Central)
Mackinaw (Deer Creek-M.) 2016 2A Champ
Hamilton [West Hancock Coop]
Toulon (Stark County)
Alton (Marquette)
Shelbyville
Westville
Gibson City (G.C.-Melvin-Sibley)
Manlius (Bureau Valley)
Aledo (Mercer County)

1A

Sesser (S.-Valier) [Coop]
El Paso (E.P.-Gridley)
LeRoy
Knoxville
Rushville (R.-Industry)
Carthage (Illini West)
Forreston 2016 1A Champ
Pawnee
Chicago (Marine)
Wood River (East Alton-W.R.)
Pearl City [Eastland-P.C. Coop]
Ottawa (Marquette)
Lena (L.-Winslow)
Eureka
Chicago (C. Hope Academy)
Arcola
Dakota
Carrollton
Mendon (Unity) [Coop]
Argenta (A.-Oreana)
Decatur (D. Lutheran) [Coop]
Camp Point (Central)
Kirkland (Hiawatha)
Freeport (Aquin)
Stockton
Mt. Sterling (Brown County)
Elgin (Westminster Christian)
Niantic (Sangamon Valley) [Coop]
Polo
Greenfield [G.-Northwestern Coop]
Hardin (Calhoun) [Coop]
Toledo (Cumberland)
 
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My Take

  • I wish the IHSA had an actual database to access as vast majority of the time was spent formatting
  • Solid 10-12 hours of work total over the course of a month, not too bad a side project
  • Some definite standouts now that we know how the season concluded. Fenwick in 6A is the biggest in my mind
  • ESL ended up in 8A despite the forfeits in 2015
  • Think you start to see a lot more parity of champions in 1-6A as the big fish trickle upwards towards 8A over time. Of the notorious ~20-30 teams JCHILL discovered as winning everything, most end up at the top
  • As stated this doesn't completely solve everything. Good chance this years Naz team get's blown out in that 8A round 1 game. Kudos to them though for qualifying
 
Readily admit that vast majority of time was spent on the actual analysis and less on the prose of the proposal. Somethings were left unsaid both intentionally and not. Feel free to ask the whats, whys, hows if they arise.
 
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Readily admit that vast majority of time was spent on the actual analysis and less on the prose of the proposal. Somethings were left unsaid both intentionally and not. Feel free to ask the whats, whys, hows if they arise.
Wow...I like it, first pass it looks like you really did hit on a competitive balance. An improvement or current classification I think.
 
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This is fantastic!

It almost creates "an Open class" of 32 teams without even asking teams to "opt in"

8A is an even worse gauntlet to run with this classification! and to be honest,.. 7A got even weaker than it was with enrollment classification this year......
 
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Thanks for your effort put into it @stonedlizard

I am going to read it over, go watch the Raiders play Lockport in hoops, then come back and post questions and concerns. The initial question I had was, "how do we calculate the initial points when they're based off of an enrollment classification and the 1st thing you told us to do was to forget that system?"

when I come back I can get into more depth.
 
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Thanks for your effort put into it @stonedlizard

I am going to read it over, go watch the Raiders play Lockport in hoops, then come back and post questions and concerns. The initial question I had was, "how do we calculate the initial points when they're based off of an enrollment classification and the 1st thing you told us to do was to forget that system?"

when I come back I can get into more depth.
Enjoy the game Bones.

The brief answer is there would ultimately be a transition period between current and new system. Rather than get all crazy for that two/three year period, create something specific to cut over and then toss it once up and running, choosing to let it ride. The historical power points for the first year would still be based on old opponents enrollment classification, the next year would be a split of the new and old, the last year would be completely devoid of the old enrollment based classification influence.

Note even in this "first year" of the model, the success of teams like Montini, Naz, Rochester bumped them into the top 68 teams pre season despite those power points being calculated based on opponents enrollment classification rather than power point classification.
 
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Very well thought out... well done!

I would be curious if anyone at the IHSA would be willing to listen.
 
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I will say that I noticed what Bones talked about regarding using standard enrollment for the baseline.
I think that is an acceptable bridge to cross, and I am having trouble poking any holes in the philosophy going forward.

Let me make sure I have this straight...

So you take all the football playing schools in the IHSA, group them in 8 groups to determine the power point values assigned for the current REGULAR season, correct? These are based off the past two years points accumulated both regular and post season? And these power groups for the current REGULAR season are used to determine the playoff power ranking classifications for the current PLAYOFF season.

((Average Points from past two years)*1/3)+(Current year regular season Points*2/3)

My only (minor) concern would be the weighting factor allowing teams that are historically strong having a "subpar" regular season and being rewarded with "playing down" come playoff time. Maybe the weighting factor might need to be changed to 50/50, but I obviously haven't done nearly as much (any) research as you have.

How much class movement from year to year (if any) would you expect from teams that consistently make the playoffs, but may go 9-0 on year and 6-3 or 5-4 the next?
 
I will say that I noticed what Bones talked about regarding using standard enrollment for the baseline.
I think that is an acceptable bridge to cross, and I am having trouble poking any holes in the philosophy going forward.

Let me make sure I have this straight...

So you take all the football playing schools in the IHSA, group them in 8 groups to determine the power point values assigned for the current REGULAR season, correct? These are based off the past two years points accumulated both regular and post season? And these power groups for the current REGULAR season are used to determine the playoff power ranking classifications for the current PLAYOFF season.



My only (minor) concern would be the weighting factor allowing teams that are historically strong having a "subpar" regular season and being rewarded with "playing down" come playoff time. Maybe the weighting factor might need to be changed to 50/50, but I obviously haven't done nearly as much (any) research as you have.

How much class movement from year to year (if any) would you expect from teams that consistently make the playoffs, but may go 9-0 on year and 6-3 or 5-4 the next?
I think you've reiterated it correctly, but I'll attempt to summarize another way. We'll stick with the cutover to "new" system at the beginning of 2016.
  • Take the 2014 enrollments, and split evenly between 8 groups. You'll end up with 67-68 teams per enrollment classification.
  • Run the regular and post season results against that table to see how many power points a team earned in 2014. The top team is Stevenson who won 8A with 872 total points
  • Take the 2015 enrollments, split evenly between 8 groups. 67-68 teams per enrollment classification.
  • Run the regular and post season results against that table to see how many power points are earned in 2015. The top team is Glenbard West with 864.
  • Add the 2014 and 2015 power points together and split evenly between 8 groups. This gives us the power points classification heading into 2016.
  • Run the 2016 regular season results against the table to get the power points earned in 2016 regular season.
  • At this point we know how many points a team has earned historically (2014 + 2015) and for this regular season (2016). Top team is Glenbard West with 2228
  • Run these totals through the weighted calculation and we'll have the weighted power points total heading into the post season. Top team is Glenbard West with 639.33
  • Use this weighted total as the basis for post season power points classification for qualifying teams.
The weighted total puts an emphasis on current season over the historical. (Average of historical/3 + (current season *2)/3).

I think a good example to your question is Naz. They won 6A and 5A in 2014/15 respectively, and played a 2014-2016 schedule against mostly 6-8A teams. This keeps them in 8A for 2016 post season despite finishing 5-4. Hope that helps?
 
Enjoy the game Bones.

The brief answer is there would ultimately be a transition period between current and new system. Rather than get all crazy for that two/three year period, create something specific to cut over and then toss it once up and running, choosing to let it ride. The historical power points for the first year would still be based on old opponents enrollment classification, the next year would be a split of the new and old, the last year would be completely devoid of the old enrollment based classification influence.

Note even in this "first year" of the model, the success of teams like Montini, Naz, Rochester bumped them into the top 68 teams pre season despite those power points being calculated based on opponents enrollment classification rather than power point classification.

Excellent. Game wasn't bad--if you enjoy alley oops thrown from half court.

So, how are we seeding each class?
Also I see a problem with the point system in that schools are getting points for playing teams and don't necessarily have to be competitive in those games. Imagine my schedule has 3 top 8A schools (GBW, HF, and LWE) and we get smacked hard by each of them and the rest of my schedule is middling 8A and 7A schools and I win them. Have I really shown I should be in the top class?
 
Excellent. Game wasn't bad--if you enjoy alley oops thrown from half court.

So, how are we seeding each class?
Also I see a problem with the point system in that schools are getting points for playing teams and don't necessarily have to be competitive in those games. Imagine my schedule has 3 top 8A schools (GBW, HF, and LWE) and we get smacked hard by each of them and the rest of my schedule is middling 8A and 7A schools and I win them. Have I really shown I should be in the top class?

Bones, what I would like to see you weigh in on is the CONCEPT. The concept is what I have been harping about for years.

I get that there are forest guys and tree guys. You are obviously a tree guy and I'm a forest guy. For years, I've been saying that we need a better forest, while you want to create separate forests or, perhaps more accurately, manage the forest so that the oaks are over here, the elms next to them, the japanese maples over in that section, and the redwoods way over there. I keep asking you to imagine a new forest, but you keep telling me, in so many, many words, that you can't imagine it because you first have to see the individual trees. Well, now you have them.

I encourage you to take a step back. Rather than examine the height or width or individual leaves of each of those trees, take a few steps back and look at the overall forest. Take a look at the overall forest right in front of you in this thread that stonedlizard had started and ask yourself if it looks healthier and more majestic than the old and overly managed forest over there.

Once you do that, if it looks good to you, then step inside and see if there are any trees that will infect the others to the extent that the forest will not be able to sustain itself. Sure, there will be a few diseased trees, but all forests have them. Don't allow yourself to get too caught up in the diseased ones. Some trees in that forest will undoubtedly be stronger than others. Some will be weaker. Focus on the overall condition of the forest.
 
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WOWOWOW! That is some serious number crunching. Great job Lizard!

Looking at some of the 8A seeding.

Best first round game is Palatine vs. Prairie Ridge!

Some of the others are LA vs. GBN,MS vs. StCharNorth,H-F vs. BR and HC vs. Eastside.
 
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Bones, what I would like to see you weigh in on is the CONCEPT. The concept is what I have been harping about for years.

I get that there are forest guys and tree guys. You are obviously a tree guy and I'm a forest guy. For years, I've been saying that we need a better forest, while you want to create separate forests or, perhaps more accurately, manage the forest so that the oaks are over here, the elms next to them, the japanese maples over in that section, and the redwoods way over there. I keep asking you to imagine a new forest, but you keep telling me, in so many, many words, that you can't imagine it because you first have to see the individual trees. Well, now you have them.

I encourage you to take a step back. Rather than examine the height or width or individual leaves of each of those trees, take a few steps back and look at the overall forest. Take a look at the overall forest right in front of you in this thread that stonedlizard had started and ask yourself if it looks healthier and more majestic than the old and overly managed forest over there.

Once you do that, if it looks good to you, then step inside and see if there are any trees that will infect the others to the extent that the forest will not be able to sustain itself. Sure, there will be a few diseased trees, but all forests have them. Don't allow yourself to get too caught up in the diseased ones. Some trees in that forest will undoubtedly be stronger than others. Some will be weaker. Focus on the overall condition of the forest.

I have looked at the concept. Its okay, but not if Im Lemont or Lake Forest off the top of my head. I do like that smaller schools havent been forced up to 8A, but the only reason for that is that it enrollment will never be phased out because its still based on enrollment. That is the same reason that SHG will not get into the top class, theyre schedule is 6A.

I do appreciate stonedlizard fleshing it out so we can have an actual discussion about it.
 
It's discouraging that there isn't more active discussion in this thread. Time of year has a lot to do with it, I suppose. Scintillating threads about public sector employees and links police are apparently far more popular than this actual high school football related topic.
 
Excellent. Game wasn't bad--if you enjoy alley oops thrown from half court.

So, how are we seeding each class?
Also I see a problem with the point system in that schools are getting points for playing teams and don't necessarily have to be competitive in those games. Imagine my schedule has 3 top 8A schools (GBW, HF, and LWE) and we get smacked hard by each of them and the rest of my schedule is middling 8A and 7A schools and I win them. Have I really shown I should be in the top class?

WOWOWOW! That is some serious number crunching. Great job Lizard!

Looking at some of the 8A seeding.

Best first round game is Palatine vs. Prairie Ridge!

Some of the others are LA vs. GBN,MS vs. StCharNorth,H-F vs. BR and HC vs. Eastside.

In terms of seeding, I would clarify that this is separate from classification. In the same sense that we don't seed the current classes based on enrollment, not intending to seed based on power points. Luckily, I have put some thought into that as well ;)

In my mind, seeding should try to answer two main questions:
  • How did a team perform? ie what's their record?
  • How good were the teams they beat/lost? ie strength of schedule
Strength of schedule is a tricky one, have to have some way to distinguish between beating an 8-1 team who has only played scrubs and beating an 8-1 team who has only played fellow world beaters.

My Take:

The power points will inherently tell us the "strength" of an opponent. Playing an 8A power point classified school, win or lose, is already reflected in the points earned for that team. We can use this within the seeding formula to help determine SOS. Wins/losses, opponents wins, and defeated opponents wins also come into play.

The Formula:

(Wins * 9) + (Opponents Wins/2) + (Defeated Opponents Wins) + (Total Regular Season Power Points Earned/9)
 
The Results:

If you apply the formula above to the classes mentioned in original post. You end up with the following seeding. Teams listed within class, seeded 1-32.

8A

Wilmette (Loyola Academy)
Hinsdale (Central)
Palatine (H.S.)
Flossmoor (Homewood-F.)
Lemont (H.S.)
Chicago (Brother Rice)
Crystal Lake (Prairie Ridge)
East St. Louis (Sr.)
Oswego (H.S.)
Lincolnshire (Stevenson)
Barrington
Chicago (Marist)
Naperville (Neuqua Valley)
Edwardsville (H.S.)
Cary (C.-Grove)
St. Charles (North)
Aurora (West Aurora)
Frankfort (Lincoln-Way East)
Glen Ellyn (Glenbard West)
Lisle (Benet Academy)
LaGrange (Lyons)
Carol Stream (Glenbard North)
Winnetka (New Trier)
Batavia
Oak Park (O.P.-River Forest)
Lombard (Montini)
Palatine (Fremd)
Park Ridge (Maine South)
Aurora (Waubonsie Valley)
Lake Forest (H.S.)
Libertyville
LaGrange Park (Nazareth Academy)

7A

Bradley (B.-Bourbonnais)
St. Charles (East)
Naperville (North)
Springfield (Sacred Heart-Griffin)
Northbrook (Glenbrook North)
Chicago (Phillips)
Oswego (East)
Rolling Meadows
Normal (Community)
Rockford (Auburn)
Peoria (H.S.)
Lake Zurich
Oak Lawn (Richards)
Highland Park
DeKalb
Plainfield (North)
Chicago (Curie)
Franklin Park-Northlake (Leyden)
New Lenox (Lincoln-Way Central)
Huntley
Lockport (Twp.)
Niles (Notre Dame)
Evanston (Twp.)
Hoffman Estates (H.S.)
Joliet (West)
Woodstock (Marian)
Villa Park (Willowbrook)
Belleville (West)
O'Fallon (H.S.)
Chicago (Simeon)
Algonquin (Jacobs)
New Lenox (Lincoln-Way West)

6A

Sterling (H.S.)
Oak Park (Fenwick)
Belleville (Althoff Catholic)
Rockford (Boylan Catholic)
Antioch
Rochester
Crete (C.-Monee)
Lansing (Thornton Fractional South)
Quincy (Sr.)
Morris
Galesburg (H.S.)
Burbank (Reavis)
Grayslake (North)
Mundelein (Carmel)
Country Club Hills (Hillcrest)
Rock Island (H.S.)
Chicago (St. Rita)
McHenry
Vernon Hills
Machesney Park (Harlem)
Lake Villa (Lakes)
Peoria (Notre Dame)
Arlington Heights (St. Viator)
Wheeling
Chatham (Glenwood)
Palos Heights (Shepard)
Olympia Fields (Rich Central)
Normal (Community West)
Deerfield (H.S.)
Oak Forest
Sycamore (H.S.)
Rockton (Hononegah)

5A

Elmhurst (IC Catholic)
Johnsburg
Chicago (Morgan Park)
Chicago (Taft)
Chicago (Lincoln Park)
Highland
Riverside (R.-Brookfield)
Danville (H.S.)
Washington
Chicago (Solorio Academy)
Chicago (St. Ignatius College Prep)
Chicago (Hubbard)
Canton
Pekin
Aurora (Marmion Academy)
Geneseo
Kankakee (Sr.)
Burbank (St. Laurence)
Rochelle
Decatur (Eisenhower)
Jacksonville (H.S.)
Metamora
Glen Ellyn (Glenbard South)
Dunlap
Troy (Triad)
South Holland (Thornwood)
Marion (H.S.)
Wauconda
Chicago Heights (Bloom Twp.)
Bloomington (H.S.)
Dolton (Thornridge)
Chicago (De La Salle)
 
I have looked at the concept. Its okay, but not if Im Lemont or Lake Forest off the top of my head. I do like that smaller schools havent been forced up to 8A, but the only reason for that is that it enrollment will never be phased out because its still based on enrollment. That is the same reason that SHG will not get into the top class, theyre schedule is 6A.

I do appreciate stonedlizard fleshing it out so we can have an actual discussion about it.

Can I ask a question of you?

Do you think this change is better, worse, or the same, as what we have currently today?

I would submit that it looks far better than what we have in place today.

One of your concerns is that it doesn't look good for Tree #1: (Lemont) or Tree #2: (Lake Forrest). In the current system - 8A had playoff teams of Curie and Taft and Ofallon which were blown out. 7A had playoff teams of Harlem, Lincoln park, Quincy. with the new system these teams "move down" Also there seems to be more "damaged trees" in the current system than trees that might get damaged in this example new system.

Additionally; There is the ability of very strong trees (ESL and PR as examples) to bubble up to the highest classification and there is no way to do that at present for public schools unless they submit a bid to the IHSA to play up a class and they can only move up one class.

Your other concern is SHG being "stuck" . If the success factor is still in place for Privates - they would be moving up as they reach multiple finals and would eventually end up in the highest classification should they continue to be successful.

Thoughts on the above?

I'm not being flippant - I really do want to know your thoughts on if you think StoneLizards system is an improvement on the current system and worthy of a deeper dive into the individual trees? I believe it is... again great Job Mr. Lizard!
 
Can I ask a question of you?

Do you think this change is better, worse, or the same, as what we have currently today?

I would submit that it looks far better than what we have in place today.

One of your concerns is that it doesn't look good for Tree #1: (Lemont) or Tree #2: (Lake Forrest). In the current system - 8A had playoff teams of Curie and Taft and Ofallon which were blown out. 7A had playoff teams of Harlem, Lincoln park, Quincy. with the new system these teams "move down" Also there seems to be more "damaged trees" in the current system than trees that might get damaged in this example new system.

Additionally; There is the ability of very strong trees (ESL and PR as examples) to bubble up to the highest classification and there is no way to do that at present for public schools unless they submit a bid to the IHSA to play up a class and they can only move up one class.

Your other concern is SHG being "stuck" . If the success factor is still in place for Privates - they would be moving up as they reach multiple finals and would eventually end up in the highest classification should they continue to be successful.

Thoughts on the above?

I'm not being flippant - I really do want to know your thoughts on if you think StoneLizards system is an improvement on the current system and worthy of a deeper dive into the individual trees? I believe it is... again great Job Mr. Lizard!

StonedLizard - Speaking of success factors - I had an idea. Could a success factor be built into your model (for both Public and Private - let's not start another PrivatePub thread within this one). Maybe part of the point calculation? that would provide a path for team that only play smaller schools during the transition period to be able to move up if they continually make the finals year after year...
 
StonedLizard - Speaking of success factors - I had an idea. Could a success factor be built into your model (for both Public and Private - let's not start another PrivatePub thread within this one). Maybe part of the point calculation? that would provide a path for team that only play smaller schools during the transition period to be able to move up if they continually make the finals year after year...

I think it's inherently there.

Let's look at Naz in the above example...

In 2015 they earned 648 power points during their 5A title run. If this model were adopted in 2016, they earn 448 regular season power points and qualified for the 8A playoffs. Let's assume they lose round 1 and earn the 60 points. That leaves them at 508 total power points earned in 2016.

Heading into 2017, their preseason classification will be based on the 2015 + 2016 point earned, 1156 power points. This is 236 less points than they earned in 2014 + 2015.

Heading into 2016, Naz's 1392 power points (from 2014 + 2015) were good enough for 13th in the state. Easily placing them in 8A pre-season classification, and essentially guaranteeing they are in 8A if they make the playoffs

Now let's assume the 2017 pre season 8A classification has the same scale as 2016 (the 68 teams in 8A fall between a high end of 1692, and low end of 1044). In that scenario, Naz would drop from 13th overall to 32nd. Still in 8A if they make the playoffs, but one more year at the same record and early first round exit would potentially push them into 7A for the following year. The model is already accounting for a 5-4 regular season and early playoff exit.

On the flip side, let's look at a team like Prairie Ridge. In 2015 they (strangely enough) also earned 648 power points. In the 2016 regular season they earn 504 power points and qualify for 8A playoffs. Let's use the seeding above and mock where they finish. First round against Montini, we know that's a win, 2nd round is against Stevenson/New Trier and potential third round would be against HC/Libertyville/CG/LWE, let's give them a 2nd round win and 3rd round loss, for a total of 708 power points earned in 2016.

Heading into 2017 they would have 1356 power points (2015 + 2016) for pre season classification purposes. If we also apply that to the 8A pre season classification scale in 2016 PR would be 16th in the state, basically guaranteeing they qualify for 8A again if they make the playoffs. In 2016 pre season classification (2014 + 2015) they were 55th, where a 7-2/6-3 record could have landed them in 7A. Again, we see that the model will account for their regular season and post season success heading into the next year.
 
I have looked at the concept. Its okay, but not if Im Lemont or Lake Forest off the top of my head. I do like that smaller schools havent been forced up to 8A, but the only reason for that is that it enrollment will never be phased out because its still based on enrollment. That is the same reason that SHG will not get into the top class, theyre schedule is 6A.

I do appreciate stonedlizard fleshing it out so we can have an actual discussion about it.
That's a key reason why post season games are worth more win or lose.

I will admit that there is probably a mix of regular season + post season that allows a team to float in a class, but imagine it would be pretty rare. Once you get 2/3 years into the model, that "6A" schedule has no bearing on enrollment, and would only be "6A" if that's were the teams fall based on their past results.

We already know Rochester is a pre season 8A team and would likely retain that pre season rating heading into 2017. SHG was the 36th overall team in 2016 pre-season classification. The other teams on SHG regular season schedule all fall in the 5A-7A range (majority 5A/6A) and given any amount of success SHG has in 7A playoffs (first round of 2016 would be against O'Fallon, then Richards/Huntley, then Glenbrook North/Belleville West/LZ/Lockport) they're likely jumping up in 2017 pre season classification, making the chance of them qualifying for 8A in 2017 playoffs even higher.

Ultimately though, you're right that it's hard to model exactly what would happen. I believe that winning championships year after year should almost always push you up a class in this model. If not, may need to tweak it or add some check. But I'd also add winning a given class 2 out of 3/4 years doesn't necessarily mean you're in the wrong class...
 
I'll post these here just so you can all see where the 2016 pre season classification lines fell. Also a minor correction on a stat above, there were 592 football schools from 2014 + 2015 so each pre season class has 74 schools in it.

Team - Power Points (2014 +2015) - Pre Season Classification

8A

Glen Ellyn (Glenbard West) 1692
Flossmoor (Homewood-F.) 1628
Cary (C.-Grove) 1548
Libertyville 1500
Lincolnshire (Stevenson) 1488
Aurora (Waubonsie Valley) 1484
Naperville (Central) 1460
Wilmette (Loyola Academy) 1436
Palatine (H.S.) 1424
Winnetka (New Trier) 1424
Frankfort (Lincoln-Way East) 1404
Darien (Hinsdale South) 1396
LaGrange Park (Nazareth Academy) 1392
Barrington 1376
Oswego (H.S.) 1364
Geneva 1328
Lombard (Montini) 1312
Bolingbrook 1300
Batavia 1296
Park Ridge (Maine South) 1296
Chicago (Simeon) 1284
Oak Park (O.P.-River Forest) 1268
New Lenox (Lincoln-Way West) 1260
Naperville (Neuqua Valley) 1256
Lemont (H.S.) 1244
Hinsdale (Central) 1240
Lake Forest (H.S.) 1224
Chicago (Phillips) 1208
Edwardsville (H.S.) 1204
Huntley 1196
South Elgin 1192
Chicago (Mt. Carmel) 1176
St. Charles (North) 1176
Chicago (Marist) 1168
Gurnee (Warren) 1168
Springfield (Sacred Heart-Griffin) 1164
Wheaton (W. Warrenville South) 1160
LaGrange (Lyons) 1152
Skokie (Niles North) 1152
Normal (Community) 1148
Oak Lawn (Richards) 1144
Bradley (B.-Bourbonnais) 1140
Peoria (H.S.) 1136
Crete (C.-Monee) 1132
Frankfort (Lincoln-Way North) 1132
New Lenox (Providence Catholic) 1132
Chicago (Curie) 1128
Joliet (Catholic Academy) 1124
Chicago (Brother Rice) 1120
Woodstock (Marian) 1112
Belleville (West) 1108
Burbank (Reavis) 1108
Lisle (Benet Academy) 1108
Palatine (Fremd) 1108
Crystal Lake (Prairie Ridge) 1104
Peoria (Notre Dame) 1104
Addison (A. Trail) 1100
DeKalb 1084
East St. Louis (Sr.) 1084
Aurora (Metea Valley) 1080
Bartlett 1080
Rockford (Auburn) 1080
Glenview (Glenbrook South) 1068
Orland Park (Sandburg) 1068
Aurora (West Aurora) 1064
Carol Stream (Glenbard North) 1064
Rochester 1064
Downers Grove (North) 1060
Evanston (Twp.) 1056
Geneseo 1052
Plainfield (North) 1048
Algonquin (Jacobs) 1044
Belleville (East) 1044
Rolling Meadows 1044

7A

Joliet (West) 1040
Hoffman Estates (Conant) 1036
Plainfield (East) 1032
Downers Grove (South) 1008
Minooka 1008
Rockton (Hononegah) 1008
Deerfield (H.S.) 1004
Skokie (Niles West) 1004
Northbrook (Glenbrook North) 996
Lake Villa (Lakes) 992
Lake Zurich 992
Plainfield (South) 992
Highland Park 988
Lockport (Twp.) 988
Schaumburg (H.S.) 988
Champaign (Central) 984
Oswego (East) 984
Arlington Heights (Hersey) 980
Niles (Notre Dame) 980
Normal (Community West) 980
O'Fallon (H.S.) 976
Harvey (Thornton) 972
Hoffman Estates (H.S.) 968
Lombard (Glenbard East) 964
Roselle (Lake Park) 964
Wheaton (North) 960
Tinley Park (H.S.) 956
Villa Park (Willowbrook) 956
Crystal Lake (South) 952
Elmhurst (York) 952
Belleville (Althoff Catholic) 948
Belvidere (North) 944
Machesney Park (Harlem) 944
Oak Forest 944
Palos Hills (Stagg) 940
Hillside (Proviso West) 932
St. Charles (East) 928
Wheeling 924
Grayslake (North) 920
Streamwood 920
Buffalo Grove 912
Franklin Park-Northlake (Leyden) 904
Naperville (North) 904
New Lenox (Lincoln-Way Central) 904
Belvidere (H.S.) 900
Sycamore (H.S.) 900
Wheaton (St. Francis) 900
Chicago (Lincoln Park) 896
Mundelein (Carmel) 896
Waukegan (H.S.) 896
West Chicago (H.S.) 896
Arlington Heights (St. Viator) 892
Romeoville (H.S.) 892
Chicago (St. Rita) 888
Mt. Prospect (Prospect) 888
Washington 888
Antioch 884
Berwyn-Cicero (Morton) 884
Taylorville 884
Alton (Sr.) 880
Chicago (King) 872
Chicago (Taft) 872
Zion (Z.-Benton) 872
Blue Island (Eisenhower) 868
Oak Park (Fenwick) 868
Sterling (H.S.) 868
Glen Ellyn (Glenbard South) 864
Vernon Hills 864
Maywood (Proviso East) 860
Morris 856
Elgin (H.S.) 852
Quincy (Sr.) 852
Burbank (St. Laurence) 848
Elk Grove Village (E.G.) 848

6A

Chicago (St. Patrick) 844
Chicago (Whitney Young) 844
Palos Heights (Shepard) 844
Carpentersville (Dundee-Crown) 840
Mundelein (H.S.) 840
Des Plaines (Maine West) 836
Elgin (Larkin) 836
Chicago (Lane) 832
Joliet (Central) 832
Riverside (R.-Brookfield) 832
Aurora (East) 828
Olympia Fields (Rich Central) 828
Rockford (Boylan Catholic) 828
Crystal Lake (Central) 824
Plainfield (Central) 824
Tinley Park (Andrew) 824
Chatham (Glenwood) 820
Chicago (North Lawndale Charter) 820
Metamora 820
Chicago Heights (Bloom Twp.) 816
Chicago (Morgan Park) 812
Kankakee (McNamara) 812
Herrin (H.S.) 808
Troy (Triad) 808
Dolton (Thornridge) 804
McHenry 800
Champaign (Centennial) 796
Granite City 796
Maple Park (Kaneland) 796
Marion (H.S.) 796
Park Ridge (Maine East) 796
Collinsville 792
Lansing (Thornton Fractional South) 788
Galesburg (H.S.) 784
Rock Island (H.S.) 784
Hampshire 780
Freeport (H.S.) 776
Rockford (Guilford) 772
Highland 768
Moline (H.S.) 768
Park Forest (Rich East) 768
Bloomington (Central Catholic) 764
Peoria (Richwoods) 764
Oak Lawn (Community) 760
Summit (Argo) 760
Wauconda 760
Chicago (Schurz) 752
Rockford (Lutheran) 752
Yorkville 752
Chicago (Dunbar) 748
Country Club Hills (Hillcrest) 744
Evergreen Park 744
Decatur (Eisenhower) 740
Chicago (Brooks) 736
Chicago Heights (Marian) 736
Canton 732
Rock Island (Alleman) 732
South Holland (Thornwood) 732
Chicago (Roosevelt) 724
Fox Lake (Grant) 724
Kankakee (Sr.) 720
Jacksonville (H.S.) 716
Chicago (Hubbard) 712
Chicago (Raby) 712
Manteno 712
Woodstock (North) 712
Aurora (Marmion Academy) 704
Pekin 704
Calumet City (Thornton Fractional North) 700
Woodstock (H.S.) 700
Rockford (East) 696
Springfield (Southeast) 696
Chicago (De La Salle) 692
Chicago (Mather) 692
 
The thing I like about it is that, if you really think about it, a 1A sized school could someday win an 8A championship hypothetically. It wouldn't matter if a town booms in size or that everyone is leaving town... An 8A champ is the top dog, no question. It would be an honor to be moved up to a class as an achievement as opposed to feeling like you're being hosed because 40 kids moved into your district. It is a true meritocracy and the opposite of the "everyone makes the playoffs and gets a trophy" mentality... I like this a heck of a lot better than the idea of switching to "district football."
 
To add to that... I think you do the seeding like they do in other sports... Have the coaches vote to seed their class. I think this would eliminate some of the issues with two great teams meeting in the first round, while in another "quad" you see mediocre teams making their way to the quarters or semis to get destroyed.
 
To add to that... I think you do the seeding like they do in other sports... Have the coaches vote to seed their class. I think this would eliminate some of the issues with two great teams meeting in the first round, while in another "quad" you see mediocre teams making their way to the quarters or semis to get destroyed.

Tried to take the subjectivity out of seeding. In my mind, if we can classify schools together based on competitive equity, the seeding criteria mentioned above should help reduce any mismatches. Always exceptions to the rule. A subjective weighting would be interesting to flesh out.
 
Love this Lizard. Thanks for the effort.

Only Change I might suggest is an increasing value of Playoff Round games. Don't think you can do straight multiplier, but something that provides some weighting. I recognize that weighting comes in adding the next games points, win or lose, but it just feels like a Championship win should carry more value than a first round win.

Maybe you take the number and uplift by .2 for each round.

So an 8A Championship run would add this to your power point total:
  • 72+72+72+72+72 = 360 Earned by MS in 2017 in your model
  • ( 72*(1))+(72*(1+.2))+(72*(1+.4))+(72*(1+.6))+(72*(1+.8)) = 504 Playoff Points earned MS in 2017 using Playoff accelerator
I just think post-season success should be a very big factor. Math would be easy as table would be built by playoff week.

My other concern is folks getting "value" for playing a team like Proviso West. Not trying to pick on PW, but they play in an 8A conference and therefore would play at least 4 sometimes 5 regular season games that would give them 52 points just for stepping on the field. All 5 of those games are running clock in the 2nd halves, but those losses count as much as a losing a 7A Championship game. Granted the 7A Championship game loser also received 4 * 64 points for the wins to get to the Championship game, but I just feel like there needs to be a "competitive factor" applied. Maybe if a team loses by more than a certain threshold the value of the loss drops or something.

I guess my question is, where does PW land in your classification?

Thanks again for doing this.
 
Love this Lizard. Thanks for the effort.

Only Change I might suggest is an increasing value of Playoff Round games. Don't think you can do straight multiplier, but something that provides some weighting. I recognize that weighting comes in adding the next games points, win or lose, but it just feels like a Championship win should carry more value than a first round win.

Maybe you take the number and uplift by .2 for each round.

So an 8A Championship run would add this to your power point total:
  • 72+72+72+72+72 = 360 Earned by MS in 2017 in your model
  • ( 72*(1))+(72*(1+.2))+(72*(1+.4))+(72*(1+.6))+(72*(1+.8)) = 504 Playoff Points earned MS in 2017 using Playoff accelerator
I just think post-season success should be a very big factor. Math would be easy as table would be built by playoff week.

My other concern is folks getting "value" for playing a team like Proviso West. Not trying to pick on PW, but they play in an 8A conference and therefore would play at least 4 sometimes 5 regular season games that would give them 52 points just for stepping on the field. All 5 of those games are running clock in the 2nd halves, but those losses count as much as a losing a 7A Championship game. Granted the 7A Championship game loser also received 4 * 64 points for the wins to get to the Championship game, but I just feel like there needs to be a "competitive factor" applied. Maybe if a team loses by more than a certain threshold the value of the loss drops or something.

I guess my question is, where does PW land in your classification?

Thanks again for doing this.

Solid points. I like the playoff point scale increasing per round. Because sometimes I can be completely full of myself, I will egotistically say give the system 2-3 years before seeing if it's needed, but don't see it hurting in anyway on first pass.

Proviso West, was a pre season 7A team and earned 456 power points in 2016 regular season. They are pretty middle of the pack in terms of pre season 7A classification and would likely remain so for 2017. I think you have called out an interesting nuance of this system though. A team can choose to schedule, or as a result of their conference, play a majority 7A/8A teams. Whether it's the first year of the system or 4/5 years down the road, that team will always receive a relatively high pre season classification due to their 7A/8A regular season losses.

I'm not sure whether this is a necessarily bad thing though. Ultimately, that team needs to win at least 5 games to classify for the playoffs, so if/when that happens I think they'd be classified correctly as they're beating 7/8A teams to get to that number.

As far as the teams they play getting a bump from beating them, the impact will vary. Loyola and Brother Rice serve as good samples due to their conference setup. Brother Rice played games against AC and St Joes who were 5A and 4A respectively, yet they still ended in 8A (although BR was close to 7A border). Loyola had one 5A regular season opponent and was easily placed in 8A.

If you were to take GBW and count PW as a 2A school rather than a 7A school, GBW would have a weighted power point total for post season classification of 612.667, which would still put them as the top ranked weighted power point heading into post season, slightly beating HF at 612.333. With PW still a 7A team, their weighted post season power points stand at 639.33. For reference, there's only 3 2016 teams at 600 post season weighted points or greater: GBW, HF, Palatine.

If you do the same for Lyons, they drop from 538.667 weighted post season power points - which is middle of the road for 8A post season - to 512, which puts them as 4th highest post season weighted power point team in 7A and bumps Naperville North into 8A. Lyons would actually lose some "8A Qualifier" prestige points. Competitively, I don't think it means much. If they do well in 7A playoffs they can likely qualify for 8A in 2017.

In short, I don't think it's bad if a team "plays up" in the regular season. They'll eventually have a class floor, but they have to ultimately win to get in and the opponents they play don't get too much benefit from the easier W. If you think of any other examples, call 'em out and we'll see what it would mean.

Great call out though, type of conversation was hoping this could spark.
 
Last edited:
Can I ask a question of you?

Do you think this change is better, worse, or the same, as what we have currently today?

I would submit that it looks far better than what we have in place today.

One of your concerns is that it doesn't look good for Tree #1: (Lemont) or Tree #2: (Lake Forrest). In the current system - 8A had playoff teams of Curie and Taft and Ofallon which were blown out. 7A had playoff teams of Harlem, Lincoln park, Quincy. with the new system these teams "move down" Also there seems to be more "damaged trees" in the current system than trees that might get damaged in this example new system.

Additionally; There is the ability of very strong trees (ESL and PR as examples) to bubble up to the highest classification and there is no way to do that at present for public schools unless they submit a bid to the IHSA to play up a class and they can only move up one class.

Your other concern is SHG being "stuck" . If the success factor is still in place for Privates - they would be moving up as they reach multiple finals and would eventually end up in the highest classification should they continue to be successful.

Thoughts on the above?

I'm not being flippant - I really do want to know your thoughts on if you think StoneLizards system is an improvement on the current system and worthy of a deeper dive into the individual trees? I believe it is... again great Job Mr. Lizard!

It's hard to say whether it's better, worse, or the same. I guess it depends on what the motive is. I don't know that this eliminates any blowouts instead of just changing who gets blown out because sometimes blowouts are unexpected. Let's take Lemont for example, during the regular season the best team they played was probably Richards, a good "6A" team right now and it appears they were on the same level. Do they really with their 1400 students need to prove themselves against HF (2700 of the South Burbs best) or Loyola (3500 multiplied)?

While I hear you about schools like Taft, it's unfortunate, but does dropping down actually give them a chance? And why should they have a chance? Lemont has none in that class.

Ummm lets look at this hypothetical. Say you have a school--like The Beloved in 2011. Previous year they were 5-5 and the year before that 9-2. They probably drop down to the weakened 7A for 2011. It's going to be a slaughterhouse.

So it's going to be better for schools like Taft, worse for schools like Lemont, and the same for the vast majority of schools, but worse for the actual classifications. I mean is it really better for Rochester to lose to St. Rita in 6A? I don't know. Could it work? Probably, but I think it's your smaller good programs that get hurt.
 
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That's a key reason why post season games are worth more win or lose.

I will admit that there is probably a mix of regular season + post season that allows a team to float in a class, but imagine it would be pretty rare. Once you get 2/3 years into the model, that "6A" schedule has no bearing on enrollment, and would only be "6A" if that's were the teams fall based on their past results.

We already know Rochester is a pre season 8A team and would likely retain that pre season rating heading into 2017. SHG was the 36th overall team in 2016 pre-season classification. The other teams on SHG regular season schedule all fall in the 5A-7A range (majority 5A/6A) and given any amount of success SHG has in 7A playoffs (first round of 2016 would be against O'Fallon, then Richards/Huntley, then Glenbrook North/Belleville West/LZ/Lockport) they're likely jumping up in 2017 pre season classification, making the chance of them qualifying for 8A in 2017 playoffs even higher.

Ultimately though, you're right that it's hard to model exactly what would happen. I believe that winning championships year after year should almost always push you up a class in this model. If not, may need to tweak it or add some check. But I'd also add winning a given class 2 out of 3/4 years doesn't necessarily mean you're in the wrong class...
I agree, winning a class a few years in a row doesn't necessarily mean you're in the wrong class.

So wait, the classification going forward does not continue to reach two years back?
 
I agree, winning a class a few years in a row doesn't necessarily mean you're in the wrong class.

So wait, the classification going forward does not continue to reach two years back?
You'd still look two years back. I'll try to put it another way...

In 2014 the regular season points I earn are based off pre season enrollment classification. ie GBW is in top 1/8th of football playing teams enrollment wise, so I earn 8A points for my games against them.

In 2015 the regular season points I earn are based off pre season enrollment classification. ie GBW is in top 1/8th of football playing teams enrollment wise, so I earn 8A points for my games against them.

In 2016 the regular season points I earn are based off pre season power point classification (power points from 2014 + 2015). ie GBW is in the top 1/8th of football playing teams power point wise, so I earn 8A points for my games against them.

In 2017 the regular season points I earn are based off pre season power point classification (power points from 2015 + 2016). ie GBW is in the top 1/8th of football playing teams power point wise, so I earn 8A points for my games against them.

In 2018 the regular season points I earn are based off pre season power point classification (power points from 2016 + 2017). ie GBW is in the top 1/8th of football playing teams power point wise, so I earn 8A points for my games against them.

etc,etc

Enrollment is phased out of classification by 2018. From there you'd see teams start to settle into pre season classifications based on their regular and post season success from previous two years. You'd likely need to look ~5 years out to see a reflection of truly "competitive equity" based classes without any enrollment influence.
 
It's hard to say whether it's better, worse, or the same. I guess it depends on what the motive is. I don't know that this eliminates any blowouts instead of just changing who gets blown out because sometimes blowouts are unexpected. Let's take Lemont for example, during the regular season the best team they played was probably Richards, a good "6A" team right now and it appears they were on the same level. Do they really with their 1400 students need to prove themselves against HF (2700 of the South Burbs best) or Loyola (3500 multiplied)?

While I hear you about schools like Taft, it's unfortunate, but does dropping down actually give them a chance? And why should they have a chance? Lemont has none in that class.

Ummm lets look at this hypothetical. Say you have a school--like The Beloved in 2011. Previous year they were 5-5 and the year before that 9-2. They probably drop down to the weakened 7A for 2011. It's going to be a slaughterhouse.

So it's going to be better for schools like Taft, worse for schools like Lemont, and the same for the vast majority of schools, but worse for the actual classifications. I mean is it really better for Rochester to lose to St. Rita in 6A? I don't know. Could it work? Probably, but I think it's your smaller good programs that get hurt.

This year Lemont would have played Maine South in rd1. Let's say they lose, earning the 60 playoff points for a total of 548, 2016 power points.

Heading into 2017 they would be classified based off 1076 power points (528 in 2015 + 548 in 2016).

If you took those 1076 and modeled where they'd fall in 2017 based on the 2016 pre season power point cutoffs, they would have been in the bottom 10 of 8A, almost a pre season 7A team.

This year Lemont earned 488 regular season power points, going 9-0. If they were to do the same in 2017, and assuming their regular season opponents had the same classification as they did in 2016, their weighted power points going into post season would be (average of 2015/2016 is 538)/3) + ((488*2)/3) = 504.667.

If you took those 504.667 and modeled where they'd fall in 2017 based on the 2016 post season power point cutoffs, they would a solid 7A qualifier.
 
It's hard to say whether it's better, worse, or the same. I guess it depends on what the motive is. I don't know that this eliminates any blowouts instead of just changing who gets blown out because sometimes blowouts are unexpected. Let's take Lemont for example, during the regular season the best team they played was probably Richards, a good "6A" team right now and it appears they were on the same level. Do they really with their 1400 students need to prove themselves against HF (2700 of the South Burbs best) or Loyola (3500 multiplied)?

While I hear you about schools like Taft, it's unfortunate, but does dropping down actually give them a chance? And why should they have a chance? Lemont has none in that class.

Ummm lets look at this hypothetical. Say you have a school--like The Beloved in 2011. Previous year they were 5-5 and the year before that 9-2. They probably drop down to the weakened 7A for 2011. It's going to be a slaughterhouse.

So it's going to be better for schools like Taft, worse for schools like Lemont, and the same for the vast majority of schools, but worse for the actual classifications. I mean is it really better for Rochester to lose to St. Rita in 6A? I don't know. Could it work? Probably, but I think it's your smaller good programs that get hurt.

I hear you on motives. I'm sure there are many motives that could come into play. Some have more weight than others and various folks will weight those motives differently in what they would like to see accomplished.

For me personally -
* I am resigned to the fact that there will always be blowouts so there is no point in trying to design a system with that being the sole criteria/motivation.

* I think the primary goal should be to get the best teams and most competitive teams into the same playoff bracket. will their be outliers that should be "up" but end up down one level? yes. Is there a path for publics to move up (PR, ESL) yes. Will there still be some blowouts? yes. there will be years where there are a couple of teams that are heads and shoulders above all others and #32 team will get spanked in any format designed for a 1-32 seeding . Will it reduce the frequency of blowouts? yes I think it will over time.

I like any system that pulls up teams like PR and ESL that have proved themselves over time and pulls down teams that have a down stretch (Naperville North down in 7A for example, but will jump back up as they emerge from the dry spell) and teams like Taft that never should be in 8A to begin with from a competitive perspective (yes enrollment wise in the old system - they go 8A and get clocked each and every year...) but should they do well - they can bubble back up!

I hear you on the Brook example. That 2012 team in 7A? yikes! I hadn't thought about that. There could be rare instances where a team is "mediocre" for a few years and then when a junior class that took their lumps becomes seniors and/or a bunch to transfers come in - they dominate and the system wouldn't catch that for the current season.... Definitely food for thought.

But on the overall (IMHO) It's a much more flexible and malleable system that adjusts and I very much like that!

Very good discussion!
 
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It's hard to say whether it's better, worse, or the same. I guess it depends on what the motive is. I don't know that this eliminates any blowouts instead of just changing who gets blown out because sometimes blowouts are unexpected. Let's take Lemont for example, during the regular season the best team they played was probably Richards, a good "6A" team right now and it appears they were on the same level. Do they really with their 1400 students need to prove themselves against HF (2700 of the South Burbs best) or Loyola (3500 multiplied)?

While I hear you about schools like Taft, it's unfortunate, but does dropping down actually give them a chance? And why should they have a chance? Lemont has none in that class.

Ummm lets look at this hypothetical. Say you have a school--like The Beloved in 2011. Previous year they were 5-5 and the year before that 9-2. They probably drop down to the weakened 7A for 2011. It's going to be a slaughterhouse.

So it's going to be better for schools like Taft, worse for schools like Lemont, and the same for the vast majority of schools, but worse for the actual classifications. I mean is it really better for Rochester to lose to St. Rita in 6A? I don't know. Could it work? Probably, but I think it's your smaller good programs that get hurt.
We sure Rochester would lose to St. Rita in 2016?
 
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