Like, Hello ....

[penlight]

"..... There’s no public database of FCS financial information, but in 2017, the NCAA reported that 98% of FCS football programs -- all but three -- lost money, with the median deficit at $2.4 million...."

Something to ponder while we see view the NCAA propaganda TV commercials this playoff and bowl season.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-is-a-money-pit-and-one-school-has-had-enough

 

[gebronco]

Just finished reading this article - interesting that with declining numbers at the youth/high school level that DI and FCS have added teams over the past decade.

 

[ramblinman]

"..... There’s no public database of FCS financial information, but in 2017, the NCAA reported that 98% of FCS football programs -- all but three -- lost money, with the median deficit at $2.4 million...."

Something to ponder while we see view the NCAA propaganda TV commercials this playoff and bowl season.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-is-a-money-pit-and-one-school-has-had-enough

What value can be placed on the print and electronic media coverage of these programs? What value can be placed on alumni charitable support that is given, at times, because of the mere existence of these programs, and, at times, because of the continued success of them? How many not football playing kids enroll in a college simply because the school offers football and the kids want the social life that revolves around football?

It's verging on sensational journalism to label these programs as money pits.

 

[mc140]

Sounds like accounting tricks.

 

[USD24]

What value can be placed on the print and electronic media coverage of these programs? What value can be placed on alumni charitable support that is given, at times, because of the mere existence of these programs, and, at times, because of the continued success of them? How many not football playing kids enroll in a college simply because the school offers football and the kids want the social life that revolves around football?

It's verging on sensational journalism to label these programs as money pits.

At the overwhelming majority of FCS schools, I would say very few, if any.students enroll because the school offers football.

 

[penlight]

What value can be placed on the print and electronic media coverage of these programs? What value can be placed on alumni charitable support that is given, at times, because of the mere existence of these programs, and, at times, because of the continued success of them? How many not football playing kids enroll in a college simply because the school offers football and the kids want the social life that revolves around football?

It's verging on sensational journalism to label these programs as money pits.

Perhaps, but it looks like alumni support is on average falling $2.4m short of where it needs to be for FCS schools.
By the NCAA's numbers, the school about which the story was written ranked 7th in attendance for FCS schools with an average attendance of a whopping 16,904: http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/Attendance/2018.pdf
CORRECTION: I cited the the wrong school, mistaking Jacksonville University for Jacksonville State University; Jacksonville University did not even make the top 30 for home game attendance so their average was 1,989 per game.
There is an arms race of spending that is spiraling out of control in much of college athletics.
I presume we will see more schools choosing this route.

 

[JCHillmen]

Perhaps, but it looks like alumni support is on average falling $2.4m short of where it needs to be for FCS schools.
By the NCAA's numbers, the school about which the story was written ranked 7th in attendance for FCS schools with an average attendance of a whopping 16,904: http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/Attendance/2018.pdf
There is an arms race of spending that is spiraling out of control in much of college athletics.
I presume we will see more schools choosing this route.

Yes. And I believe paying players in the next few years will only stretch that gap.

 

[ignazio]

Lake Forest College recently announced that they would be fielding both men’s and women’s lacrosse.
They currently offer more sports than Illinois or Wisconsin.

 

[ramblinman]

Lake Forest College recently announced that they would be fielding both men’s and women’s lacrosse.
They currently offer more sports than Illinois or Wisconsin.

Yet they don't offer baseball. Weird.

 

[ramblinman]

At the overwhelming majority of FCS schools, I would say very few, if any.students enroll because the school offers football.

I can tell you that I had this conversation with my son when he was considering universities that did and did not have a football team. He wound up going to a school (Xavier in Cincy) that does not have football. Although he really enjoyed his experience there, I think that he did envy some of his friends at other football playing schools who were able to enjoy the football related scene at those schools.

 

[USD24]

I can tell you that I had this conversation with my son when he was considering universities that did and did not have a football team. He wound up going to a school (Xavier in Cincy) that does not have football. Although he really enjoyed his experience there, I think that he did envy some of his friends at other football playing schools who were able to enjoy the football related scene at those schools.

I agree. I have two in college now at Illinois and Bama and “big time” football was at least part of the conversation when they chose their schools. I have a daughter now who is a senior at JCA and is looking at schools and the football weekend does come up in the search process. However, I don’t think this really comes into play when considering a FCS school. Very few, if any, decide on ISU or USD because of the draw of football weekends

 

[PanthersWildcats86]

The hard cost to a university for football is a double edged sword. The money spent on football can be a considerable seemingly black hole from a pure accounting standpoint, as the non-scholarship FCS schools in the Pioneer League can attest. If the school is spending 2 million on football and only generating half a million, I'm not sure the benefit is there from a pure accounting standpoint.

On the other end of the scale, Alabama, Ohio State, Michigan, and the other major powers have a priceless amount of advertising for their school because of football. Not only does the football team make money, it provides likely billions of dollars worth of brand recognition. How many people would sit and watch a three and a half hour program about Michigan or Ohio State? But 100,000+ will pay $200 for a ticket to watch them play football. And millions will watch the game on TV.

In 1985, I only strongly considered three universities...Northwestern, because it was a great academic school; Illinois, because it was a great public academic school; and DePaul, because Ray Meyer coached one of the best basketball teams in the country. I occasionally got to watch Illini or Wildcat games when they were game of the week, but got to watch lots of DePaul games on WGN. It created an interest...Took visits to DePaul & NU, but got to see Illinois from Engineering Open House and the State Finals...Why go to one of the lesser schools? SIU, the Halloween party school? University of Chicago never even crossed my mind because of sports and finances.

The piles of catalogs & brochures I got from the D3 & NAIA schools all kind of ran together...the only ones I looked at twice were the ones which had coaches send me info after I sent the general info postcard back (which I actually thought was hilarious, since I set school records for fewest points & rebounds in a season with zero as a junior, and we didn't play football). But if the school's goal was to use football / sports to attract male students who otherwise wouldn't give them the time of day, hey, they succeeded. And a lot of the schools adding football are trying to attract more male students and see this as an opportunity...

 

[PanthersWildcats86]

I agree. I have two in college now at Illinois and Bama and “big time” football was at least part of the conversation when they chose their schools. I have a daughter now who is a senior at JCA and is looking at schools and the football weekend does come up in the search process. However, I don’t think this really comes into play when considering a FCS school. Very few, if any, decide on ISU or USD because of the draw of football weekends

My younger brother, the 6'1" 240 pound cross country runner (because Manteno didn't play football), narrowed his college choice to either UIC or SIUC engineering programs...My mother having grown up not too far from UIC wasn't too excited about his potentially going there, and his attraction for football was a deciding factor in going to SIU...even if he wasn't going to try out. One of his prized possessions was the SIU #95 jersey I bought him for hs graduation - he would have been a '95 grad (he stayed with me in my first year law school dorm room for his orientation weekend).

 

[ramblinman]

I agree. I have two in college now at Illinois and Bama and “big time” football was at least part of the conversation when they chose their schools. I have a daughter now who is a senior at JCA and is looking at schools and the football weekend does come up in the search process. However, I don’t think this really comes into play when considering a FCS school. Very few, if any, decide on ISU or USD because of the draw of football weekends

First of all, check this out: https://stadiumjourney.com/news/stadium-journey-ranks-the-fcs-stadiums

I understand what you are saying, but everything is relative. Sure, football weekends at USD can't compare to football weekends at Alabama. But, I think you are kidding yourself if you think that it doesn't matter at all.

Imagine a kid who has narrowed down his or her college choices to University of Dayton and Xavier University. There are pros and cons for both. I can see a certain type of kid saying that a pro for Dayton is that it has home football games to attend, can tailgate at, and can contribute to school spirit. The same sort of kid might even consider a con for Xavier being that they don't have a football team.

Lastly, everything really is relative. The football scene at Montana might not approach that of Alabama or Illinois, but how many football related pre and post game parties and how many tailgaters do you really need at a school of 8,000 undergrads before it becomes a fun scene not to be missed relative to everything else going on at that school?

Sure, if a kid is looking solely for the football social scene, pick Alabama over Montana for the sheer scope of it. But if a kid is looking between Montana and Creighton or Montana and another school with less of a football social scene, I can see a certain type of non-football playing kid picking Montana because s/he wants what Montana can offer socially that the other schools can't.

 

[ramblinman]

Here's something else that clouds the issue a bit.

Take an FCS school like James Madison, for example. JMU is a state school in Virginia. Tuition, room and board for Virginia residents is $23K. Out of staters pay $40K. Do the people or computers putting together the calculations that lead Bloomberg to label FCS programs a money pit calculate 63 full scholarships at $40K per or $23K per? Maybe they punt and take an average and come up with $31.5K per scholarship. Or maybe they apply a single average to all FCS schools across the board. Do they actually take the time to determine who on the roster would pay the state rate and who would pay out of state at each and every FCS state university? Oh, and BTW, do they factor in what each football player is receiving in need based financial aid and merit (academic) scholarships?

It wouldn't surprise me if, for the sake of expediency, they use the full out of state sticker price value of the full and partial football scholarships that are being given away by those FCS schools in their calculations of expenses of the program. But, who the hell other than perhaps wealthy foreign students pays the sticker price at colleges these days?

 

[ignazio]

Here's something else that clouds the issue a bit.

Take an FCS school like James Madison, for example. JMU is a state school in Virginia. Tuition, room and board for Virginia residents is $23K. Out of staters pay $40K. Do the people or computers putting together the calculations that lead Bloomberg to label FCS programs a money pit calculate 63 full scholarships at $40K per or $23K per? Maybe they punt and take an average and come up with $31.5K per scholarship. Or maybe they apply a single average to all FCS schools across the board. Do they actually take the time to determine who on the roster would pay the state rate and who would pay out of state at each and every FCS state university? Oh, and BTW, do they factor in what each football player is receiving in need based financial aid and merit (academic) scholarships?

It wouldn't surprise me if, for the sake of expediency, they use the full out of state sticker price value of the full and partial football scholarships that are being given away by those FCS schools in their calculations of expenses of the program. But, who the hell other than perhaps wealthy foreign students pays the sticker price at colleges these days?

You could easily take that one step further and ask "what does it truly cost a school to allow an athlete to take a spot in one of their classes?"
A random sample of JMU football player majors from their roster:
Kinesiology
Communication Studies
Hospitality Management
Communication Studies
Communication Studies
Communication Studies
Sociology
Communication Studies
Public Policy and Administration
Kinesiology
Are these 100 football players taking up a spot - in a major where another student would likely be willing to pay the figure the school uses to calculate price?

I doubt it.
I will concede they likely eat more than the average if the cafeteria is buffet style.

 

[penlight]

First of all, check this out: https://stadiumjourney.com/news/stadium-journey-ranks-the-fcs-stadiums

I understand what you are saying, but everything is relative. Sure, football weekends at USD can't compare to football weekends at Alabama. But, I think you are kidding yourself if you think that it doesn't matter at all.

Imagine a kid who has narrowed down his or her college choices to University of Dayton and Xavier University. There are pros and cons for both. I can see a certain type of kid saying that a pro for Dayton is that it has home football games to attend, can tailgate at, and can contribute to school spirit. The same sort of kid might even consider a con for Xavier being that they don't have a football team.

Lastly, everything really is relative. The football scene at Montana might not approach that of Alabama or Illinois, but how many football related pre and post game parties and how many tailgaters do you really need at a school of 8,000 undergrads before it becomes a fun scene not to be missed relative to everything else going on at that school?

Sure, if a kid is looking solely for the football social scene, pick Alabama over Montana for the sheer scope of it. But if a kid is looking between Montana and Creighton or Montana and another school with less of a football social scene, I can see a certain type of non-football playing kid picking Montana because s/he wants what Montana can offer socially that the other schools can't.

Your handle of "ramblinman" may be the most appropriate one on the board!
It was the NCAA that determined the reported figures off of data supplied by member institutions.

 

[ramblinman]

Your handle of "ramblinman" may be the most appropriate one on the board!
It was the NCAA that determined the reported figures off of data supplied by member institutions.

I never thought it was from any other source. I still wonder what their methodology was in requesting and compiling the data.

 

[penlight]

I never thought it was from any other source. I still wonder what their methodology was in requesting and compiling the data.

Well as the NCAA membership is made up of our nation's leading Higher Ed institutions, we have to presume it was a sound formula that abides by the highest in ethical standards. ;-)

 

[mchsalumni]

Your handle of "ramblinman" may be the most appropriate one on the board!
It was the NCAA that determined the reported figures off of data supplied by member institutions.

And what could be questionable about that, right?

 

[PanthersWildcats86]

First of all, check this out: https://stadiumjourney.com/news/stadium-journey-ranks-the-fcs-stadiums

I understand what you are saying, but everything is relative. Sure, football weekends at USD can't compare to football weekends at Alabama. But, I think you are kidding yourself if you think that it doesn't matter at all.

Imagine a kid who has narrowed down his or her college choices to University of Dayton and Xavier University. There are pros and cons for both. I can see a certain type of kid saying that a pro for Dayton is that it has home football games to attend, can tailgate at, and can contribute to school spirit. The same sort of kid might even consider a con for Xavier being that they don't have a football team.

Lastly, everything really is relative. The football scene at Montana might not approach that of Alabama or Illinois, but how many football related pre and post game parties and how many tailgaters do you really need at a school of 8,000 undergrads before it becomes a fun scene not to be missed relative to everything else going on at that school?

Sure, if a kid is looking solely for the football social scene, pick Alabama over Montana for the sheer scope of it. But if a kid is looking between Montana and Creighton or Montana and another school with less of a football social scene, I can see a certain type of non-football playing kid picking Montana because s/he wants what Montana can offer socially that the other schools can't.

I think there are different types of FCS schools...The Illinois FCS schools are the second tier of football in the state. But go west, youngsters, to the big rectangles that have no FBS teams...The Montana & Dakota schools are the major power schools in the state. I would expect, then, that the comparative "football partyness" of North Dakota State is probably similar to Alabama, just without as many people - and a lot colder at the end of the season.